Changes to Sightstone/Support Items coming to PBE

RiotItsLowbo·Jan 9, 2018·1 votes·148,678 views

Hello! I’m Lowbo, a systems designer on the Game Systems team, and I’m here to talk to you about changes to Sightstone and the core support items!

The requirement to buy Sightstone has long existed as a tax on the support position, and while vision is an important element of the game, the way it delivers this has been a drain on satisfaction for a long time. We’d like to lift the obligation while still empowering Supports to be heavy participants in the vision game.

Quick explanation of change

Sightstone and all of its upgrades will be removed from the store.
Support items will gain Sightstone’s active as their quest reward.
Support Tier 3 items now build out of Tier 2 and a Ruby Crystal, and give you the same stats as their respective line’s “Eye of the ____” upgraded Sightstone on live.
For more context, read below. I’ll go through the goals and reasons behind these changes, and then give the complete changelist.
NOTE: Current names and icons for Tier 3 are temporary. We’ll have new names and icons for all three lines for Tier 2 after quest completion, and Tier 3 both pre and post quest completion.

Goals of Change

The main drive behind these changes is that we want supports to be more free to pursue their own build paths. Without a mandatory 800 gold purchase in the early game, Supports will be able to make more choices and have more agency over how their power is expressed. We will try to keep Sightstone timings and general support economy to be close to their live values.
One thing we’ve learned from Ardent Censer over the summer is that Support players greatly appreciated the ability to rush impactful items - they were able to feel like a bigger participant in the game. We’ve also learned that the game still functions well without a Sightstone rush - in other words, the game doesn’t break down from a lack of early vision.
We would still like Sightstone times to be a reflection of the support player’s skill, so we are putting it on the quest reward rather than just giving it out at a specific game time. We found that for most players, the existing quest rewards were very low satisfaction relative to their power level. We hope that gaining this active is a much more noticeable and satisfying reward.
Unfortunately, having an active as the quest reward requires us to remove the active branches of the item chains - Frost Queen’s Claim, Face of the Mountain, and Talisman of Ascension. Some of the actives provided important options, and so we’ll be looking at ways to bring Frost Queen’s Claim and Talisman of Ascension back in modified forms. Face of the Mountain’s active will likely not return in the immediate future.

More Detailed Changelist:

Sightstone and Ruby Sightstone have been removed from the store.
The quest reward from all three gold income item lines is changed to grant Sightstone’s active.
You will still be required to upgrade to Tier 2 to finish your quest.
Quest reward thresholds are reduced to 500 gold.
Your Tier 3 item will build out of your Tier 2 item and a Ruby Crystal, and will give you the same stats as an upgraded Sightstone on live. There is no longer a branching path to Tier 3 - the active variants of the items have been removed. Upon quest completion, your Tier 2 item will have a maximum of 3 wards between trips to the store. Upgrading to Tier 3 will give you a maximum of 4 wards stored.

Timing and Future Work

We expect these changes will go out in 8.2, but they might be delayed a patch or two if we hit bugs or snags with implementation.
We’re still going to be ironing out some details - whether you have to return to the store to stock up on your first ward charges, around what time do we want the rewards to activate, whether this makes Spellthief’s line too risky (as you can get locked out of income generation if laning phase ends early), things like that. We will also be closely monitoring poaching by other laners and junglers.

Thanks for reading! I’ll be around to answer questions.

815 Comments

ßiggie CheeseJan 9, 2018180 votes

Seems like changes targeted to auto filled support players and frustrating changes for support mains. [sg-soraka]

Lotus StormJan 10, 201823 votes

The funny thing is i'm not even a support main myself by any means right and i'm reading these change's and i'm like "What is this? This is so bad. This only punishes good players who knew what they were doing as a support. So now you piss off support mains and then encourage lazyness. AP supports loved that move speed, Tanks loved the move speed engage for their team. These items encouraged different builds and smart thinking but now your just removing that skill of choice and just stream lining support. It helps autofilled players sure. But for Support mains this change just feels so disgusting."

DaCurtisJan 9, 2018114 votes

Twin Shadows item will return then? :O

In all seriousness though, I hope Riot somehow finds a way to bring back frost queens quest reward by having bonus movespeed on ability hit. Losing that will be a tragedy on how I play my game.

Radiant SeraphJan 9, 201817 votes

An actual AP Support item? All out for it!

FSN GodHandJan 9, 201832 votes

Upvoting for the MS passive. It's something so crucial for all my support games since mages are not tanky enough to survive if caught...

RiotItsLowboJan 9, 201821 votes

Yes, we'll be testing it out as part of the upcoming AP item pass. Not guaranteed it will be a part of that, but if not we will try to bring it back somewhere else. We'll also be looking for a way to bring back Talisman/Reverie.

We will be monitoring tank supports to see if they need a way to defend an indivudual ally in addition to Knight's Vow.

ßiggie CheeseJan 9, 201876 votes

Ruby Sightstone have been removed from the store.

item 3070 item 2045 RIP my 65% item CDR build Nov 2017-Jan 2018 Lots of spaghetti, never forgetti. [sg-janna]

Deltora 1080Jan 9, 201876 votes

Losing the FotM active is huge for tank supports. They're losing more than supports that go FQC or ToA, but are the only ones that don't have compensation planned, which is odd tbh.

ThighoniaJan 9, 20187 votes

Locket is basically already better im sure is what they are thinking

DaCurtisJan 9, 201810 votes

Full disclosure, I hardly used FotM, but I agree, there's already a substitute for FotM and it's called locket. There wasn't that much special I found with FotM, it was just a shield, and the damage it did hardly got used.

I find shield stacking a bit unhealthy in the current meta, but that's just my opinion. I don't see a desperation for two shield actives.

Poro TheNakriinJan 9, 201829 votes

actually, FotM is better than Locket if you are in lane/a 2v2/3v3 situation, since it doesnt decay and actually slows after 4 seconds

Deadly DonutsJan 10, 201823 votes

I use FotM literally constantly. It saves lives earlier on in the game. Sure locket is better, but having a clutch shield on a low cooldown is crucial for tanks with no other buffs for their adcs aka leona, malphite...

swaningtonJan 9, 201876 votes

I feel like this is the wrong way to go if your goal is to lighten the obligation of vision from support.

From what you've described, the obligation of vision will remain with support, but simply change the path to get there and remove the bonus for doing so.

Why not adjust some other non-support items to add vision abilities and encourage other positions to ward more often? Or reward anyone for planting wards in game (ie. +1 gold/10 seconds for every 2 wards you have up)?

Adding the jungle vision item was a good idea but it's never used because the vision is not worth giving up the other options.

Personally the only quest bonus that currently feels lacking is from talisman of ascension. And while I used to be opposed to ruby sightstone, running frost queens claim with it on a glacial augment build is a ton of fun (not to mention the only real way to use glacial augment successfully atm).

I hope this ends up being like the grasp of the undying change and doesn't make it past pbe.

Poro TheNakriinJan 9, 201819 votes

I share your hope in this regard. As a thresh main who usually uses FotM it just feels bad to know that i will never be able anymore to save my allies with it if those changes will make it through.

RiotItsLowboJan 9, 201826 votes

The goal is not necessarily to reduce Support’s influence in the vision game, but rather to lessen the economic impact required to do so.

Perma CCJan 9, 201832 votes

{quoted}

The goal is not necessarily to reduce Support’s influence in the vision game, but rather to lessen the economic impact required to do so.

What about 20% cdr on active items.... this is a crucial element to my build? I actually used ruby sightstone alot.

AMYS GRAVEJan 9, 201857 votes

I think a larger issue is that you've removed support agency in build paths. Before you had the option to go eye + other item or ruby + gold gen active item if you wanted, but now you get no choice in the matter as the build path is pre-determined. There also used to be the choice on first back of sightstone or upgrading your gold gen item, and that choice has been removed.

To me this change really reads as - Homogenize your playstyle supports, we don't like you making decisions for yourself.

swaningtonJan 9, 201836 votes

I appreciate the sentiment in that concept, however I think it might actually be detrimental to the current gameplay we're seeing.

If I as a support can ignore sight and rush an item to boost myself or my adc, the impact will be MORE SNOWBALLING. Something the game needs like a hole in the head.

Right now if I want to rush an item for quick power boost, then I have to ignore vision needs to some extent which leaves our lane more open to ganks. That to me feels like a fair trade for rushing power.

The only real problem with the vision game right now is that no one participated expect support and jungle (usually). I support main, but when I go to other roles I find myself getting higher vision scores than most because I bother to spend a few seconds putting wards down. Everyone could and should do it, but many people don't because it's "not their job". That's the attitude we need to address. And maybe that means adding extra incentive to wards.

It was brought up that if the whole map is warded then junglers will be at a disadvantage, but honestly so many people are running duskblade that I think it would be ok. And if too much vision becomes an issue one day (we can dream), then it opens more doors for other items that shut down vision. Ok now I've gotten too far ahead of myself. =p

Tldr; I appreciate the sentiment but it's approaching a current non-issue, and has potential to backfire hard.

Saran HasnorJan 9, 201867 votes

Supports may be able to afford items earlier thanks to this change, but in exchange they lose some of the most exciting support active items, and while that may be healthier for the game in the long run, I feel like it removes some of the few opportunities of glory that supports have, and I don't think having an extra item slot will always make up for it.

Having more money is great, but it's not as visible or exciting as boosting you entire team's movement speed :(

FullmuteAll playJan 9, 201867 votes

Saved so many lives with Face of Mountain

Kitty DarkstarJan 9, 201831 votes

This is hurting me more than losing Deathfire Grasp

item 3070 item 3401

Poro TheNakriinJan 9, 201825 votes

If these changes come to live, i actually have to stop playing support since i wont be able to use FotM anymore... And my playstyle will just be done for because of the changes as well...

Dope SoloJan 10, 201848 votes

"We want supports to feel like active participants in the game", so we're removing the item actives and replacing it with a mandatory wardbot buy in. You've doubled down on the problem and to make up for it removed just the words 'sight stone' from the game. We see what you did there. item 2049 As usual, riot gets the question backwards and the solution comes out upside down and inside out. "A common complaint is that damage is too high, so we're eliminating some defensive overlap". W...T...F...?

Honestly, after seeing this happen now for the nth time with you guys, I have a suggestion. How about you identify a problem and present several possible solutions to the community for discussion BEFORE you throw some half-assed, ill-conceived foolishness onto the server? You know, as if to gather some FEEDBACK FIRST, like the community actually matters and has valid, worthwhile insights on the subject matter.

You are listening to the community more, right? That wasn't just pillow talk, right?

Daedric EtwahlJan 10, 201843 votes

This honestly just seems like such a frustrating change for actual support mains. As a Sona main it's going to suck to completely lose out on the Queen's Tribute speed boost on proc. Not to mention the tier 3 actives going away. Honestly I don't like these changes at all, these feel so targetted toward autofilled support players without really considering how it will affect actual support mains.

BADxW0LFJan 9, 201837 votes

Please do not implement the changes until you have the actives for the current support items placed somewhere else. These actives are very clutch for supports and we need them.

Edit: Also, why remove FOTM active completely? It makes no sense and forces tanks to get locket in order to get a shield. You guys once talked about making that item not 100% necessary of an item to take. If you don't put the FOTM active item somewhere else, you will be backing out of that statement.

This also seems like an excuse for forcing people to take the ever so shitty rune Guardian.

maliohammadJan 9, 201836 votes

The changes seems to just remove all the fun of support tbh, I will miss relic shield passive, it allows tank supports to have a solid engage and not die instantly because tank support items are much weaker than actual tank items in terms of stats, which the old reward solved. NowI don't even care about the reward "YAY, after a hard lane and struggling to get my support item gold I get a sightstone instead of something useful..."

GRIMThousandEyesJan 9, 201835 votes

Are we just going to be losing the Active Item CDR passive from Ruby Sightstone with no plans of that coming back either?

Having the ability to get crazy low levels of item CDs in combination with Ingenious Hunter was great and it'll be sad to see that go.

ZenithEeveeJan 10, 201835 votes

Can we Not do this?

If i'm being honest, This is not the problem.

IylaJan 10, 201834 votes

"One thing we’ve learned from Ardent Censer over the summer is that Support players greatly appreciated the ability to rush impactful items - they were able to feel like a bigger participant in the game. "

Are you actually saying supports enjoyed the ardent meta? Because as a 5+ season support main, I HATED it. Afk in lane with shield supports, gold p/5 runes, rushing an item that makes the ADC impactful, not me, is not something I "greatly appreciated". Plus it had nothing to do with rushing impactful items, it had to do with a single broken item being more impactful than every other item I could buy, including vision. Making it seem like us rushing that item over sightstone is because you gave us different playing paths with impactful items is incredibly disingenuous.

SmithYorkinsterJan 9, 201831 votes

So basically "fuck tank supports" (even harder then they already are with Leona's exception. In what comes to early vision, that's really moronic, its impact depends on the type of jungler the enemy team uses, and of course during the ardent censer meta (The one you saw in Worlds) the type of jungler used wasn't defined by early ganking junglers. Saying vision isn't important in the early game shows a lack of understanding on the relevance of vision all together which remains all game through, I'm more and more convinced, Riot doesn't play its own game.

withoutsexJan 10, 201830 votes

Congrats on killing off my favorite item in the game, and muddying the water between the three support items by removing their item upgrades so they're literally almost exactly the same item. item 2049 item 3070

The Green GamerJan 9, 201828 votes

Seriously, why not just make the Yellow trinket work similar to/on the same level as a sightstone? Then EVERY player can have an active role in vision play, and not just relegate vision duties to junglers and supports!! This allows supports to keep the actives on their income items (which are IMMENSELY impactful and feel SO good to successfully use as a support), and opens up possibilities for team-wide vision control instead of just two players handling most of the vision. It allows for supports to feel good about their item purchases too, because then they're not required to keep their sightstone in inventory late game and exchange the slot for a stronger/more rewarding item.

No like seriously, I would like to know why removing the actives from gold income items felt like a better idea than reworking trinket to allow team-wide vision control?????

TomiMan7Jan 9, 201812 votes

just imagine every1 having 3 trinkets and getting that refilled upon backing. You would literally have ALL the map warded ALL the time. Junglers would not be able to gank, at all, since all the laners would have vision everywhere. really bad idea

Beached ManateeJan 9, 201817 votes

Laners other than supports using wards Lels

Pokemonred200Jan 9, 201824 votes

If this happens, can we eventually see the active portions of the other items return again? I really do love item 3092 's active, and if Twin Shadows were to come back, that'd be great. A powerful single-target shield to replace item 3401 would be great too; I'm not sure if we need a replacement to item 3069 yet though, given item 3800 exists, although a version of it suited for enchanters would be nice.

Wait I'm stupid I skimmed through the page and didn't see the portion about the support item actives going to something else. But does that mean that we HAVE to lose Face? I would rather have Face active stay than Talisman active, although I can see why it would leave with all the shields running amok.

Shady QueenJan 10, 201824 votes

As a support player getting a Sightstone for me was never a problem, since I bought it when I NEEDED it, and the supports items helped us out ALOT. My beloved Frost Queen's Claim provided me with everything I needed statwise and effectwise. Now we're loosing that to stuff in a warding active, seems like a change to make people feel better being autofilled, and not to help the support mains to me.

Support PositionJan 10, 201823 votes

As a support player. I don't want these changes. Find something else. I want my activate items. I don't give a damn about garbage wards.

ShadowParkerJan 9, 201822 votes

If could please answer this because this actually a really important question.

Won't the removal of sightstone bring back AP Damage Mages back into botlane and actually make them dominate because they will have an extra slot for their AP items rather than being forced into having a sightstone?

I feel like this is actually a pretty big deal here.

FalbindanJan 9, 201821 votes

So you remove the current, amazing support items because you don't want them to be forced to buy Sightstone? As a support main since I started this game, I had no problem with being forced to buy Sightstone. I didn't like the lack of options it provided, but I liked the item itself. I mean, I like the basic idea that there are three different sightstones after those changes. But I will really miss the current support items. Do you have any plans to bring back Twin Shadows and something with the current Face of the Mountain active? (If so, I'm totally fine with the changes)

TantarboyJan 9, 201820 votes

This is not what i expected at all oh wow. It is surely a risky decision. Also are there any plans on finding a way for control wards to be purchasable and usable even if out of space/full build?

Zac x MeJan 10, 201819 votes

This will not fix the issue of supports being warding slaves. You rito guys are always like "warding is teamwork blabla" but it never is.

If you want warding to be teamwork all items for all roles will have to recieve that kind of a change so when having only the support ward that will not cover even remotely enough vision on the map.

Not to mention that this will neuter any non support-items support builds, as Bard I only go full tank along with a Sightstone. Hello incoming reports of how I didn't buy certain support item that grans me wards.

Nice "warding is teamwork"-change by only focusing making support even more of warding slaves than they already are.

Why not do something along the lines "Remove all sight items and upgrade the trinket to 4-5 charges". That way everyone will be forced to ward in order to keep vision up rather than supports being nothing but slaves.

Athenes LuluJan 10, 201818 votes

We would still like Sightstone times to be a reflection of the support player’s skill, so we are putting it on the quest reward rather than just giving it out at a specific game time.

So if teams are behind, they will never get to catch back up because they can't even get the vision they need. If teams are ahead, they will be much more ahead and have a massive advantage of vision.

This sounds like season 3 ward bot slaves all over again.

We found that for most players, the existing quest rewards were very low satisfaction relative to their power level. We hope that gaining this active is a much more noticeable and satisfying reward.

"Low satisfaction"? The spellthief line is very noticeable, though.

chillheartedJan 10, 201816 votes

this seems like a "lack of support mains is the reason for long ques so lets make all of them quit league and just make it stupidly easy to just play your main role in the 'support' role when you get auto filled." [sg-soraka]

Poolparty SauronJan 9, 201814 votes

Welp we did not SEE this coming

DelphiniumJan 10, 201814 votes

I get to high diamond using early ward control to provide vision for my jungle to invade and counter gank. This change will completely screw up my playstyle since I am heavily depended on wards/early vision. Not only that this change will only lean towards auto fill supports not support mains.

Since it’s a quest now that means the bot lane that falls behind can’t get enough vision down to prevent further ganks is going to turn bot lane and the game way more snowbally. If this change made though, riot you are just forcing support main to quit.

VxB NobodyJan 10, 201814 votes

Seems like this is all just a cover to deal with the other positions abusing the current rewards.

I have not heard of 1 person that actually plays support that is happy about this, and it'll have a big impact on the rising adc meta, along with the current way both singed and ekko are being played.

Lexanomical UnitJan 10, 201812 votes

So let me get this straight. You think that supports like agency, and then say censer was a good example. Are you kidding? Do you know how many games I got flamed for not skipping everything else (boots, even sightstone sometimes) to rush the hell out of it? I've been playing mainly support for almost five seasons now, and I love the hell out of ruby sightstone/frost queens combo. I have enjoyed every moment of having the quests that feel like I'm going somewhere. I find great satisfaction in finally getting that targon's passive shield and having that extra chunk of effective health.

But being forced into a crappier version of eye of (whatever)? Please god no thank you. What happens when someone gets bullied out all game (say a tank vs Zyra or Brand) and then it takes them an extra ten minutes to get sightstone? Nope. Supports generally get pretty shafted - who here remembers the days of supports being a good 4-5 levels under everyone else in the game? And I really don't want to get screwed over because my team won't let me last hit the few minions I need for targon's on Thresh.

Please reconsider. If the comment section has proven anything, I'm not alone in my feelings about the sightstone combos. Edit - I'm currently plat five off almost exclusively support. If support mains across the board are begging you not to, maybe it's not the best plan.

DrTiltensteinJan 16, 201811 votes

just so we're clear, you're going to save me 800 gold by making me spend 2200 on a locket if I want to keep playing sup the way I am? also rip Queen's Tribute, that's going to kill the way I play mage supports too [zombie-brand-facepalm]