Changes to Sightstone/Support Items coming to PBE

RiotItsLowbo·1/9/2018, 9:12:17 PM·1 votes·148,678 views

Hello! I’m Lowbo, a systems designer on the Game Systems team, and I’m here to talk to you about changes to Sightstone and the core support items!

The requirement to buy Sightstone has long existed as a tax on the support position, and while vision is an important element of the game, the way it delivers this has been a drain on satisfaction for a long time. We’d like to lift the obligation while still empowering Supports to be heavy participants in the vision game.


Quick explanation of change

  • Sightstone and all of its upgrades will be removed from the store.
  • Support items will gain Sightstone’s active as their quest reward.
  • Support Tier 3 items now build out of Tier 2 and a Ruby Crystal, and give you the same stats as their respective line’s “Eye of the ____” upgraded Sightstone on live.
  • For more context, read below. I’ll go through the goals and reasons behind these changes, and then give the complete changelist.
  • NOTE: Current names and icons for Tier 3 are temporary. We’ll have new names and icons for all three lines for Tier 2 after quest completion, and Tier 3 both pre and post quest completion.

Goals of Change

  • The main drive behind these changes is that we want supports to be more free to pursue their own build paths. Without a mandatory 800 gold purchase in the early game, Supports will be able to make more choices and have more agency over how their power is expressed. We will try to keep Sightstone timings and general support economy to be close to their live values.
  • One thing we’ve learned from Ardent Censer over the summer is that Support players greatly appreciated the ability to rush impactful items - they were able to feel like a bigger participant in the game. We’ve also learned that the game still functions well without a Sightstone rush - in other words, the game doesn’t break down from a lack of early vision.
  • We would still like Sightstone times to be a reflection of the support player’s skill, so we are putting it on the quest reward rather than just giving it out at a specific game time. We found that for most players, the existing quest rewards were very low satisfaction relative to their power level. We hope that gaining this active is a much more noticeable and satisfying reward.
  • Unfortunately, having an active as the quest reward requires us to remove the active branches of the item chains - Frost Queen’s Claim, Face of the Mountain, and Talisman of Ascension. Some of the actives provided important options, and so we’ll be looking at ways to bring Frost Queen’s Claim and Talisman of Ascension back in modified forms. Face of the Mountain’s active will likely not return in the immediate future.

More Detailed Changelist:

  • Sightstone and Ruby Sightstone have been removed from the store.
  • The quest reward from all three gold income item lines is changed to grant Sightstone’s active.
  • You will still be required to upgrade to Tier 2 to finish your quest.
  • Quest reward thresholds are reduced to 500 gold.
  • Your Tier 3 item will build out of your Tier 2 item and a Ruby Crystal, and will give you the same stats as an upgraded Sightstone on live. There is no longer a branching path to Tier 3 - the active variants of the items have been removed. Upon quest completion, your Tier 2 item will have a maximum of 3 wards between trips to the store. Upgrading to Tier 3 will give you a maximum of 4 wards stored.

Timing and Future Work

  • We expect these changes will go out in 8.2, but they might be delayed a patch or two if we hit bugs or snags with implementation.
  • We’re still going to be ironing out some details - whether you have to return to the store to stock up on your first ward charges, around what time do we want the rewards to activate, whether this makes Spellthief’s line too risky (as you can get locked out of income generation if laning phase ends early), things like that. We will also be closely monitoring poaching by other laners and junglers.

Thanks for reading! I’ll be around to answer questions.

815 Comments

ßiggie Cheese1/9/2018, 10:23:44 PM180 votes

Seems like changes targeted to auto filled support players and frustrating changes for support mains. [sg-soraka]

DaCurtis1/9/2018, 9:19:24 PM114 votes

Twin Shadows item will return then? :O

In all seriousness though, I hope Riot somehow finds a way to bring back frost queens quest reward by having bonus movespeed on ability hit. Losing that will be a tragedy on how I play my game.

Deltora 10801/9/2018, 9:40:12 PM76 votes

Losing the FotM active is huge for tank supports. They're losing more than supports that go FQC or ToA, but are the only ones that don't have compensation planned, which is odd tbh.

ßiggie Cheese1/9/2018, 9:20:57 PM76 votes

Ruby Sightstone have been removed from the store.

item 3070 item 2045 item 3070 RIP my 65% item CDR build Nov 2017-Jan 2018 Lots of spaghetti, never forgetti. [sg-janna]

swanington1/9/2018, 9:52:22 PM76 votes

I feel like this is the wrong way to go if your goal is to lighten the obligation of vision from support.

From what you've described, the obligation of vision will remain with support, but simply change the path to get there and remove the bonus for doing so.

Why not adjust some other non-support items to add vision abilities and encourage other positions to ward more often? Or reward anyone for planting wards in game (ie. +1 gold/10 seconds for every 2 wards you have up)?

Adding the jungle vision item was a good idea but it's never used because the vision is not worth giving up the other options.

Personally the only quest bonus that currently feels lacking is from talisman of ascension. And while I used to be opposed to ruby sightstone, running frost queens claim with it on a glacial augment build is a ton of fun (not to mention the only real way to use glacial augment successfully atm).

I hope this ends up being like the grasp of the undying change and doesn't make it past pbe.

FullmuteAll play1/9/2018, 9:29:58 PM67 votes

Saved so many lives with Face of Mountain

Dope Solo1/10/2018, 12:29:27 AM48 votes

"We want supports to feel like active participants in the game", so we're removing the item actives and replacing it with a mandatory wardbot buy in. You've doubled down on the problem and to make up for it removed just the words 'sight stone' from the game. We see what you did there. item 2049 As usual, riot gets the question backwards and the solution comes out upside down and inside out. "A common complaint is that damage is too high, so we're eliminating some defensive overlap". W...T...F...?

Honestly, after seeing this happen now for the nth time with you guys, I have a suggestion. How about you identify a problem and present several possible solutions to the community for discussion BEFORE you throw some half-assed, ill-conceived foolishness onto the server? You know, as if to gather some FEEDBACK FIRST, like the community actually matters and has valid, worthwhile insights on the subject matter.

You are listening to the community more, right? That wasn't just pillow talk, right?

Daedric Etwahl1/10/2018, 1:10:12 AM43 votes

This honestly just seems like such a frustrating change for actual support mains. As a Sona main it's going to suck to completely lose out on the Queen's Tribute speed boost on proc. Not to mention the tier 3 actives going away. Honestly I don't like these changes at all, these feel so targetted toward autofilled support players without really considering how it will affect actual support mains.

BADxW0LF1/9/2018, 11:03:39 PM37 votes

Please do not implement the changes until you have the actives for the current support items placed somewhere else. These actives are very clutch for supports and we need them.

Edit: Also, why remove FOTM active completely? It makes no sense and forces tanks to get locket in order to get a shield. You guys once talked about making that item not 100% necessary of an item to take. If you don't put the FOTM active item somewhere else, you will be backing out of that statement.

This also seems like an excuse for forcing people to take the ever so shitty rune Guardian.

maliohammad1/9/2018, 10:04:06 PM36 votes

The changes seems to just remove all the fun of support tbh, I will miss relic shield passive, it allows tank supports to have a solid engage and not die instantly because tank support items are much weaker than actual tank items in terms of stats, which the old reward solved. NowI don't even care about the reward "YAY, after a hard lane and struggling to get my support item gold I get a sightstone instead of something useful..."

GRIMThousandEyes1/9/2018, 9:32:29 PM35 votes

Are we just going to be losing the Active Item CDR passive from Ruby Sightstone with no plans of that coming back either?

Having the ability to get crazy low levels of item CDs in combination with Ingenious Hunter was great and it'll be sad to see that go.

ZenithEevee1/10/2018, 1:44:56 AM35 votes

Can we Not do this?

If i'm being honest, This is not the problem.

Iyla1/10/2018, 5:44:53 AM34 votes

"One thing we’ve learned from Ardent Censer over the summer is that Support players greatly appreciated the ability to rush impactful items - they were able to feel like a bigger participant in the game. "

Are you actually saying supports enjoyed the ardent meta? Because as a 5+ season support main, I HATED it. Afk in lane with shield supports, gold p/5 runes, rushing an item that makes the ADC impactful, not me, is not something I "greatly appreciated". Plus it had nothing to do with rushing impactful items, it had to do with a single broken item being more impactful than every other item I could buy, including vision. Making it seem like us rushing that item over sightstone is because you gave us different playing paths with impactful items is incredibly disingenuous.

SmithYorkinster1/9/2018, 10:17:26 PM31 votes

So basically "fuck tank supports" (even harder then they already are with Leona's exception. In what comes to early vision, that's really moronic, its impact depends on the type of jungler the enemy team uses, and of course during the ardent censer meta (The one you saw in Worlds) the type of jungler used wasn't defined by early ganking junglers. Saying vision isn't important in the early game shows a lack of understanding on the relevance of vision all together which remains all game through, I'm more and more convinced, Riot doesn't play its own game.

withoutsex1/10/2018, 1:38:23 AM30 votes

Congrats on killing off my favorite item in the game, and muddying the water between the three support items by removing their item upgrades so they're literally almost exactly the same item. item 2049 item 3070

The Green Gamer1/9/2018, 9:47:51 PM28 votes

Seriously, why not just make the Yellow trinket work similar to/on the same level as a sightstone? Then EVERY player can have an active role in vision play, and not just relegate vision duties to junglers and supports!! This allows supports to keep the actives on their income items (which are IMMENSELY impactful and feel SO good to successfully use as a support), and opens up possibilities for team-wide vision control instead of just two players handling most of the vision. It allows for supports to feel good about their item purchases too, because then they're not required to keep their sightstone in inventory late game and exchange the slot for a stronger/more rewarding item.

No like seriously, I would like to know why removing the actives from gold income items felt like a better idea than reworking trinket to allow team-wide vision control?????

Shady Queen1/10/2018, 2:35:17 AM24 votes

As a support player getting a Sightstone for me was never a problem, since I bought it when I NEEDED it, and the supports items helped us out ALOT. My beloved Frost Queen's Claim provided me with everything I needed statwise and effectwise. Now we're loosing that to stuff in a warding active, seems like a change to make people feel better being autofilled, and not to help the support mains to me.

Pokemonred2001/9/2018, 9:39:27 PM24 votes

If this happens, can we eventually see the active portions of the other items return again? I really do love item 3092's active, and if Twin Shadows were to come back, that'd be great. A powerful single-target shield to replace item 3401 would be great too; I'm not sure if we need a replacement to item 3069 yet though, given item 3800 exists, although a version of it suited for enchanters would be nice.

Wait I'm stupid I skimmed through the page and didn't see the portion about the support item actives going to something else. But does that mean that we HAVE to lose Face? I would rather have Face active stay than Talisman active, although I can see why it would leave with all the shields running amok.

Support Position1/10/2018, 12:47:57 AM23 votes

As a support player. I don't want these changes. Find something else. I want my activate items. I don't give a damn about garbage wards.

ShadowParker1/9/2018, 10:39:43 PM22 votes

If could please answer this because this actually a really important question.

Won't the removal of sightstone bring back AP Damage Mages back into botlane and actually make them dominate because they will have an extra slot for their AP items rather than being forced into having a sightstone?

I feel like this is actually a pretty big deal here.

Falbindan1/9/2018, 9:38:45 PM21 votes

So you remove the current, amazing support items because you don't want them to be forced to buy Sightstone? As a support main since I started this game, I had no problem with being forced to buy Sightstone. I didn't like the lack of options it provided, but I liked the item itself. I mean, I like the basic idea that there are three different sightstones after those changes. But I will really miss the current support items. Do you have any plans to bring back Twin Shadows and something with the current Face of the Mountain active? (If so, I'm totally fine with the changes)

Tantarboy1/9/2018, 9:19:35 PM20 votes

This is not what i expected at all oh wow. It is surely a risky decision. Also are there any plans on finding a way for control wards to be purchasable and usable even if out of space/full build?

Zac x Me1/10/2018, 12:16:49 AM19 votes

This will not fix the issue of supports being warding slaves. You rito guys are always like "warding is teamwork blabla" but it never is.

If you want warding to be teamwork all items for all roles will have to recieve that kind of a change so when having only the support ward that will not cover even remotely enough vision on the map.

Not to mention that this will neuter any non support-items support builds, as Bard I only go full tank along with a Sightstone. Hello incoming reports of how I didn't buy certain support item that grans me wards.

Nice "warding is teamwork"-change by only focusing making support even more of warding slaves than they already are.

Why not do something along the lines "Remove all sight items and upgrade the trinket to 4-5 charges". That way everyone will be forced to ward in order to keep vision up rather than supports being nothing but slaves.

Athenes Lulu1/10/2018, 6:14:25 AM18 votes

We would still like Sightstone times to be a reflection of the support player’s skill, so we are putting it on the quest reward rather than just giving it out at a specific game time.

So if teams are behind, they will never get to catch back up because they can't even get the vision they need. If teams are ahead, they will be much more ahead and have a massive advantage of vision.

This sounds like season 3 ward bot slaves all over again.

We found that for most players, the existing quest rewards were very low satisfaction relative to their power level. We hope that gaining this active is a much more noticeable and satisfying reward.

"Low satisfaction"? The spellthief line is very noticeable, though.

chillhearted1/10/2018, 4:26:31 AM16 votes

this seems like a "lack of support mains is the reason for long ques so lets make all of them quit league and just make it stupidly easy to just play your main role in the 'support' role when you get auto filled." [sg-soraka]

Poolparty Sauron1/9/2018, 9:21:05 PM14 votes

Welp we did not SEE this coming

Delphinium1/10/2018, 7:23:22 AM14 votes

I get to high diamond using early ward control to provide vision for my jungle to invade and counter gank. This change will completely screw up my playstyle since I am heavily depended on wards/early vision. Not only that this change will only lean towards auto fill supports not support mains.

Since it’s a quest now that means the bot lane that falls behind can’t get enough vision down to prevent further ganks is going to turn bot lane and the game way more snowbally. If this change made though, riot you are just forcing support main to quit.

VxB Nobody1/10/2018, 9:15:49 AM14 votes

Seems like this is all just a cover to deal with the other positions abusing the current rewards.

I have not heard of 1 person that actually plays support that is happy about this, and it'll have a big impact on the rising adc meta, along with the current way both singed and ekko are being played.

Lexanomical Unit1/10/2018, 1:49:57 AM12 votes

So let me get this straight. You think that supports like agency, and then say censer was a good example. Are you kidding? Do you know how many games I got flamed for not skipping everything else (boots, even sightstone sometimes) to rush the hell out of it? I've been playing mainly support for almost five seasons now, and I love the hell out of ruby sightstone/frost queens combo. I have enjoyed every moment of having the quests that feel like I'm going somewhere. I find great satisfaction in finally getting that targon's passive shield and having that extra chunk of effective health.

But being forced into a crappier version of eye of (whatever)? Please god no thank you. What happens when someone gets bullied out all game (say a tank vs Zyra or Brand) and then it takes them an extra ten minutes to get sightstone? Nope. Supports generally get pretty shafted - who here remembers the days of supports being a good 4-5 levels under everyone else in the game? And I really don't want to get screwed over because my team won't let me last hit the few minions I need for targon's on Thresh.

Please reconsider. If the comment section has proven anything, I'm not alone in my feelings about the sightstone combos. Edit - I'm currently plat five off almost exclusively support. If support mains across the board are begging you not to, maybe it's not the best plan.

DrTiltenstein1/16/2018, 4:47:31 AM11 votes

just so we're clear, you're going to save me 800 gold by making me spend 2200 on a locket if I want to keep playing sup the way I am? also rip Queen's Tribute, that's going to kill the way I play mage supports too [zombie-brand-facepalm]

Tenth Leper1/9/2018, 9:32:18 PM9 votes

What about twisted treeline? Are the support items removed now?