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Midseason Support Item Update - Live on PBE!

RiotLimely··1 votes·36,797 views

Hey, Guys! Limely and Riot Colin here to talk about the recent changes we’ve made to the Support starting items: adding Quests and Rewards, and reworking the Ancient Coin line.

TL;DR - We want the Support player’s laning actions to be more interactive, meaningful, and drive towards a feeling of progressing through the game without simply piling on more gold, as it’s very easy to do more harm than good that way. There is still a lot more to do for Supports to catch them up to the other positions; adding quests and their rewards is just one of several steps towards improving the Support experience.

Problem Statement / Solution Space Supports tend to lack meaningful points of comparison - they can’t compare scores like CS, and let’s be honest - “Wards Placed” is not necessarily indicative of good vision play. :P It’s even harder to compare performance when a subset of Support champions are played with an item that allows them to opt out of interacting with the lane if they so choose.

To combat this we have added milestone quests to the starting gold items to allow the player to measure their success during the laning phase, with an impactful reward on hitting a goal - if you can get your reward before your opponent, how will you use that advantage?

We’ve also made changes to the Ancient Coin passive in order to enable meaningful quest progression and encourage lane interaction. Our goal here is to add a pattern that allows opportunities for a higher payout, at a higher risk.

Quest Details Once you have earned a certain amount of gold with your choice of starting item, the item’s quest is replaced with a unique passive.

  • Ancient Coin line: Gain an elixir that instantly grants a skill point when consumed. Takedowns on enemy champions spawn gold and mana coins.
    • You still have a max of 18 skill points per game - you’ll finish leveling your abilities at level 17
    • If your inventory is full, the elixir is automatically consumed (and you can choose a skill)
  • Relic Shield line: Gain a shield that regenerates out of combat. Executing minions accelerates the regeneration.
  • Spellthief’s Edge line: Tribute procs grant a short burst of movement speed.

Ancient Coin Line Rework The old Ancient Coin passive created very stagnant gameplay, and limited our ability to tune its primary users as well as the player’s ability to excel in lane. Whether you were losing or winning lane, there was very little to no impact on your gold income. Here’s how we’re changing that:

  • When minions die near the player (but not due to the player), they sometimes drop a gold or mana coin for the player to pick up
    • Not Yet Implemented for PBE: Cannon minions always drop coins for a little more reliability
    • Mana coins restore % missing mana with a flat floor of mana restored
  • Ancient Coin items now have base ambient gold in line with the other two starting items

There are still some clarity issues around having two Coin players in the game, as well as balance on the risk vs. reward of grabbing those coins, so if you have a chance to play around with it on PBE we would love your feedback to help us fine tune the experience.

Anti-Poaching We understand that giving the Support starting items special power upon quest completion has the risk of making them more appealing to non-support players. We want to avoid poaching on these items - we want the rewards to be impactful, but if it becomes ideal to buy an item whose mini-game you don’t actually plan on actively participating in just to get the reward late game at minimal investment, it cheapens the experience for those who are opting into the gameplay. To limit the item to those who are interested in investing in the item for the item’s sake, the quest cannot be completed unless you have at least the second tier of the item (Nomad’s Medallion, Targon’s Brace, or Frostfang).

Additionally, we changed the timing of spending charges on the Spellthief’s Edge line:

  • The cooldown on spending charges after a minion kill has been decreased from 12 seconds to 8 seconds, but this is now per minion kill. This means if you are Sona and your Q accidentally takes a minion you are punished less, but if you clear a whole wave, don’t expect to be using any of your charges any time soon. :P
    • Frost Queen’s Claim and Eye of the Watcher are unchanged as the restriction is lifted.
  • There is now a delay after a Tribute charge is spent before the same spell can spend another. This means that abilities such as Morgana’s W and Miss Fortune’s E don’t 100% guarantee three stacks of damage/gold if your opponent moves out of the spell area.

We know there are still a lot of improvements we could make to the Support position to make it more compelling and balanced with the other positions. There are some pain points that haven’t been addressed with these changes, but we plan to continue working on ways to give Supports more control over their own destinies. :3

Please let us know what you think! We’ll be around to answer questions for a bit.

Supporting Supports, Limely & Riot Colin ( Nautilus & Trundle )

146 Comments

Swarovsko17 votes

"lemme get the coin xd" malzahar ults dies In a bot lane dominated by mages how are you even supposed to walk near them with squishy champions like Sona Nami Janna Soraka? That's a disappointing idea honestly. I don't know why you're forcing squishy supports to sit on minions who died near the ENEMY champions. Also, would you imagine how many free hooks thresh and blitz will have? That's disappointing, really disappointing. I was expecting more.

Clôude6 votes

It's creating an interaction where there was none. The supports that just sit on the back line should have some kind of gameplay they have to engage in, rather than free gold and an unkillable adc. If this results in those champions being underpowered then it provides an opportunity to bring them up to being more impactful, creating real gameplay.

RiotDjango UnJaned13 votes

I had a lot of similar thoughts as you, but after playtesting it internally, I think the pick-up rules are pretty generous.

All of this is still being tuned but here's my experience so far:

The coins don't really drop where the minion dies. If you're nearby, it'll drop close to where the minion fell but if you're far away, the violent force of minion death flings it conveniently towards you (or something like that). Also, apparently your ancient coin came with a magnet b/c nearby coins get sucked towards you.

You're still going to have to wade closer to the fray then you're you used to, but I think it creates some more interesting risk/reward opportunities.

ModAcademy Kayn10 votes

the violent force of minion death

Could we somehow harness this power for other means? Trebuchet Minions perhaps?

RiotLimely11 votes

I'm not sure how much minions weigh - how many would you need in order to launch 90kg of minions over 300 meters? :3

RiotColin7 votes

Psh a catapult could never launch 90kg of minions over 300 meters.

Tin of sardines3 votes

90 kg... let's assume a constant loss of -5m/s to cover 300 meters (wait, did you said meters? it's this NA, are you Canadian?) 90/2 x 20² m/s = 45 x 400 = 18000 joules, enough to kill some one. you need aprox. 80 m/s to archive such "terminal velocity" that's 288 Km/h or 178 mph it's fast, very fast, no wonder Syndra W hurts. even if minions weight about 10 KG (20 pounds) and the speed is 2100/4 cm per second .... ops, we are using real world physics, so the math does adds up as should be. yordles are too smalls by the lore for syndra W have enough kinetic energy to hurt somebody in a meaningful way. my conclusion, therefore, is: she is using some kind of technology I don't understand yet, let's can it magic for now.

Piltover Customs6 votes

Lets get some basics out of the way: Catapults launch high because gravity pulls down. The idea ratio is dependent on what you are trying to achieve.

There are lots of measurements used when calculating a catapults launch (How far it will go, how long until it gets there, what angle you need to launch at etc). Suffice it to say that trial and error is the easiest way :P. (Kill more minions!)

You can launch 90kg over 300 meters relatively simple, depending on how much stored energy you have (or using a trebuchet style, how much weight you have launching it, ie creating the energy).

If what /u/Tin of Sardines stated earlier is accurate (too early to do much math!) then 80 m/s isn't that hard to achieve.

using a trebuchet style catapult, the length/angle/drop for the counterweight could easily do this. Depending on style/build your counterweight could be as little as 10x what you are trying to launch.

Glory ln Death6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Django UnJaned,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=uEdawln6,comment-id=00060001,timestamp=2017-04-18T20:30:59.669+0000)

Also, apparently your ancient coin came with a magnet b/c nearby coins get sucked towards you.

Well, the item description does say that flecks of gold dust rise from the Sands and cling to it (paraphrased), so it makes sense from the item's "lore".

Tin of sardines2 votes

so the new ancient coin is like a coin version of: https://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/plantsvszombies/images/1/18/Gold_Magnet1.png/revision/latest?cb=20090521220255 nice, it's seam to be more proactive that the current one, without have to be way more dangerous like item 3303

Rió3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Django UnJaned,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=uEdawln6,comment-id=00060001,timestamp=2017-04-18T20:30:59.669+0000)

I had a lot of similar thoughts as you, but after playtesting it internally, I think the pick-up rules are pretty generous.

All of this is still being tuned but here's my experience so far:

The coins don't really drop where the minion dies. If you're nearby, it'll drop close to where the minion fell but if you're far away, the violent force of minion death flings it conveniently towards you (or something like that). Also, apparently your ancient coin came with a magnet b/c nearby coins get sucked towards you.

You're still going to have to wade closer to the fray then you're you used to, but I think it creates some more interesting risk/reward opportunities.

I agree, having playtested the coins with a handful of champions I've found that the drop and pickup radius to be more than generous enough. The only time I was never able to safely grab a coin was when the enemy was hard-shoving the lane in our direction so the coin was left behind. That being said, the new coin play-pattern enables some form of denial in line with the other 2 options (dodging skill-shots and harassing)

Chicken Rave5 votes

These coin drops are basically Caitlyn traps. Step on one when at least one enemy is present, and you lose at least 20% of your Health.

Partholonian5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chicken Rave,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=uEdawln6,comment-id=00060002,timestamp=2017-04-18T20:31:12.963+0000)

These coin drops are basically Caitlyn traps. Step on one when at least one enemy is present, and you lose at least 20% of your Health.

I'm especially concerned about Soraka, whose kit literally damages her. If you also have to pay in harass to access your coins AND completely lose the existing health regen on Tribute, in order to get some mana that you can't even use to heal yourself and will cost you even more health to use to heal someone else... that's not going to end well.

She's dependent on the existing coin not just because the other choices are bad for her (although they are), but also because she literally needs the health sustain to stay alive.

Chicken Rave2 votes

Well I guess Spellthief's is your only remaining option. It's such a shame, Ancient Coin was designed for Enchanters and that's 75% of what Soraka is. On top of that, they're shanking all of the Mana regen on the item and its evolution because of the Mana coins. All of it, yeah. For 8% of your maximum Mana on a coin that supposedly appears once in every wave. Now I don't know how much 0.27% of your max Mana is on Soraka, but that's your new bonus Mana regen if you collect every single Mana coin you get. Smells like a Forbidden Idol before Sightstone if you don't switch to Spellthief's.

Redesignated2 votes

They're screwing the mana regeneration on the Spellthief's upgrades too, now. Down to 50% on Frostfang and Eye of the Watchers.

Time to find a place to fit in flat mana regen runes! Amumu

KONO RUBICK DA7 votes

Hey! Janna main here

i wonder what do you plan for her? my concern is the following: -right now Janna has no reliable way to "interact" her kit and numbers literally forces her to stay back and shield an adc

unlike other enchenters her range is not 550, her attack animation is tooooo clunky. Her shield bonus AD has been nerfed to 10, her Q mana cost is 90/105/120/135/150 and doesn't do quite much except stopping dashes which is her speciality

trading is literally impossible with janna and all she does in lane is shield the adc against poke

SOOOOO this new ancient coin is a bad new if people sit on minions and ancient coin, THERE IS NOTHING janna can do to contest this due to everything i listed above. And she can't build spellthief edge for the same reasons

so how are things going to be with that ancient coin?

RiotRiot Sotere7 votes

She can create windows of safety with her shield to collect coins. And then get her mana back from them as well! I'm more of a Frost Queen's Janna myself, but do think she'll be fine with the Coin line.

Riot Wrekz has been doing some work on support's auto attack animations, including Janna's. They'll be shipping out in 7.9, so hopefully it feels substantially better for you next patch! :)

KONO RUBICK DA9 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sotere,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=uEdawln6,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-04-18T18:49:58.206+0000)

She can create windows of safety with her shield to collect coins. And then get her mana back from them as well!

that's really not how it works, imagine doing that against brand/malz/zyra/thresh/blitz and supports like that, i'm just asking for you to consider how hard it is.

[{quoted}](name=Riot Sotere,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=uEdawln6,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-04-18T18:49:58.206+0000)

Riot Wrekz has been doing some work on support's auto attack animations, including Janna's. They'll be shipping out in 7.9, so hopefully it feels substantially better for you next patch! :)

for real, a good attack animation is a big buff to janna as it's one of her weakness so if it's fixed, let's see it's enough, the 475 base range might remain as a weakness but at least it can be compensated with the shield

DarkRitual5 votes

Bait adc, shield self. Free early game trade win.

Zone with Q to get coins. It's also so much easier if your W is up and you can ignore creep block

Janna trades fine, and zones like a champ. She will be fine.

Zielmann6 votes

During laning, Janna can and should be taking an aggressive stance in the lane still. Biggest exception to this is against something like Thresh or Blitz where their hooks are a major threat. But even against them, you can position more aggressively than simply sitting back and shielding, just take care to keep a minion between you and their support in this case. She may not have high base AD, or even base damages. But consistent poking with W and autos will add up.

I don't take it so far as to go spellthief's line on her (I feel like current coin is just so much more reliable for income), but just because you don't have the incentive to poke that Spellthief's gives doesn't mean you shouldn't poke. Also, you can run Bandit and get 3 more gold from those autos.

Rift Skuttler6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Negan fanboy124,realm=EUW,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=uEdawln6,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2017-04-18T18:38:41.167+0000)

Hey! Janna main here

i wonder what do you plan for her? my concern is the following: -right now Janna has no reliable way to "interact" her kit and numbers literally forces her to stay back and shield an adc

unlike other enchenters her range is not 550, her attack animation is tooooo clunky. Her shield bonus AD has been nerfed to 10, her Q mana cost is 90/105/120/135/150 and doesn't do quite much except stopping dashes which is her speciality

trading is literally impossible with janna and all she does in lane is shield the adc against poke

SOOOOO this new ancient coin is a bad new if people sit on minions and ancient coin, THERE IS NOTHING janna can do to contest this due to everything i listed above. And she can't build spellthief edge for the same reasons

so how are things going to be with that ancient coin?

Solution; Don't play Janna.

Jks, you should be zoning the enemy adc no matter who you are playing - spellthiefs was always a good purchase on janna, even if you only got the gold from proccing it ocasionally. The active on the upgraded version is great for her, and if you know when to go in for an auto or the odd w on the enemy support or adc during laning phase you can consistantly get the spellthief's gold. It will be the same here, infact, it will be even better because when you go to use w on the enemy the proc from theifs will grant you even more movespeed - Janna loves movespeed.

Apart from that, Janna doesn't need to be buffed - her lane is allready extremely strong and, quite frankly, frustrating to play against. It's not obvious how much you're helping the adc with the shield and damage buff, but it's more than I think you're considering. Especially considering how strong shields are in the current game - Unlike health they're not reduced by executioner's.

If you really love Janna so much that you continue to play her, that's okay, but don't expect her kit to become more involving any time soon, I think that one would take a more large scale VGU to achieve. Currently, she's just too easy to play and has far too reliable tools to have a kit that's noticeably strong like other supports might have.

Recommendation: Play sona, Soraka, Lulu etc.. These are all champions that, from your description, you might feel more satisfying. If not, then these changes don't particularly impact you at all - either stick with coin and use Janna's amazing movespeed to pick up the coins or get spellthiefs and just use auto's/w where necessary to grab the gold.

Teridax687 votes

Why not simply have the Ancient Coin quest grant a free skill point immediately? Put another way, what is the goal of the elixir as an intermediary item? Also, considering how supports tend to not be particularly XP/gold dependent, and how an extra skill point in the mid to late game will end up just adding 0.125s to a taunt or 20 points to a heal, why not simply have the quest provide a full level-up?

Deep Terror Nami4 votes

I'm wondering if proccing multiple Tribute charges will add, stack, overlap, or simply refresh the movement speed burst.

RiotLimely6 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deep Terror Nami,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=uEdawln6,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-04-18T18:39:43.152+0000)

I'm wondering if proccing multiple Tribute charges will add, stack, overlap, or simply refresh the movement speed burst.

It will combine the duration of each stack. So the movement speed stays the same, but the duration increases.

Deep Terror Nami3 votes

Thanks!

PeponiPoro2 votes

I like that!

Lord Desert4 votes

Hey there, I'm a bit late to the party, Hans needed help refueling thze flammenwerfer :P I have 3 questions which would love to be cleared:

  • Have you guys thought/tested something like a "Questline" for sightstone? (main contendor would be ruby)
  • can I stay at Tier 1 earn the 650G and then buy Tier 2 and instantly upgrade/get the reward?
  • How much better are the upgraded passivs? Tribute -> Queens Tribut, Favor -> EmPoro's Favor, also a rough extimate about the shield strength of targos would be nice (Maybe Moobeat havent found the values yet)
DarkRitual3 votes

Gut instnct tells me Spelltheif's will be bad on Morgana now. But midlane Ahri, Karma, and Taliyah probably like the tribute proc speed boost. As much as you don't want it poached, I don't see how it won't be unless you completely dumpster the stats on it.

RiotMeddler3 votes

Our first step if poaching becomes a problem will likely be to increase the lockout time per CS taken, make it much more of a trade off to build while also trying to farm.

Jesus Canaj 4205 votes

Personal concern though with the lockout timing is for champions like Zilean or even Morgana who use aoe spells to harass enemies, and especially with zilean more than others, taking minions by accident is not a rare occurence, but spellthiefs is supposed to be for supports like him, so is he just supposed to go coin now? Followup, when the ad backs or dies, but the support is still in lane, the 100% right decision to do is to last hit, but if the lockout now stacks, do we just expect supports to completely ignore the minion wave, even if they're the only ones in lane?

Nerian3 votes

Hey there. My comment is more of an idea I've been sitting on for awhile, and multiple friends think this is a good one.

We'd like to see a damage mitigated stat come out for those champs like Janna and Lulu or even tanks who have shields like Naut, and Tahm Kench.

This would help increase our sense of meaning in a match in post-game. Even seeing stuff from invuln shields like Kayle ult would be fun.

It's just a thought I myself have had for a long time, being a long time Janna main.

We need some recognition, too many people look down on supports and don't credit us for what we actually do half the time. It'd be nice to have a stat to say "Hey, look at all this shielding I did man."

RiotLimely6 votes

We definitely agree that non-damage contribution needs more recognition in our game. We are looking at some technical difficulties that we've run into with some of the End of Game stats we wanted to add, but you can read more about what we were able to do in the [Utility Contribution Dev Corner post.] (https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/xE35BtAR-midseason-update-utility-contribution)

aítch2 votes

I'm just saying gp will always go ancient coin if that's a thing. He essentially gets to scale faster now

Champions like Leblanc might also be able to abuse that ancient coin passive that really does seem way too powerful to have in the game but this is just all theory crafting for now.

RiotMeddler7 votes

Coins only drop from minions you didn't personally kill, so GP or LB would only get benefit if giving up a lot of CS.

aítch2 votes

That's actually not what I'm talking about. The completed coin passive of filling a point in an ability is way too powerful imo mid game since now rather then waiting till around 28-32 min you can get your power spike a whole minute or 2 faster which could potentially just throw champions waaaay outta line.

RiotLimely4 votes

I think Meddler's point is that if they are giving up CS, then they are giving up power they could be investing in elsewhere, and if they don't give up CS, it will take a long time to complete the quest. In our internal playtests we had the coin completing as late as 40 minutes when picking up very few coins in lane.

So the question then is whether or not a mid-late game skill point early (assuming you are not level 18 by the time the quest completes) is worth losing out on 850g (+ any missed CS that doesn't drop a coin) worth of power that doesn't expire?

Quepha2 votes

[{quoted}](name=la aitch,realm=NA,application-id=A7LBtoKc,discussion-id=uEdawln6,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2017-04-19T18:17:37.607+0000)

you can get your power spike a whole minute or 2 faster which could potentially just throw champions waaaay outta line.

Does the elixir actually let you spend the skill point as if you were one level higher? If not that means you aren't getting rank 2 or rank 3 ult earlier, you're just spending that point on your second (or even third) most important normal ability. Very few, if any, champions would consider rank 2 or 3 in their second basic ability to be a massive power spike.

hallfro2 votes

So if the support consumes the Coin elixer, levels an ability, and then sells the Coin item, will they keep the leveled ability? Just wondering how this interaction is going to work and if supports will be forced to hold onto their laning items to benefit from the quests late game.

RiotMeddler4 votes

You could sell the item and keep the skill point yes.

Shahamut1 votes

what if they then buy another coin?

RiotLimely7 votes

The quest progress does not reset between purchases, so you would not get another elixir.

patmax176 votes

Can I sell Coin and start the quest of another support item?

PeepingPeafowl2 votes

In testing, how feasible was it for a coin support who had successfully bullied their lane opponent under tower to grab coins under tower, and vice versa?

Also how does the gold rewards of the coin line compare to the others?

RiotLimely5 votes

In most cases we have seen supports successfully and safely collecting coins under tower. We did have one test where a player chose to try playing aggressively risky with Coin, and did end up with, shall we say, less than ideal results. :3 That seems to be the exception to the rule, however.

Collecting coins under your own tower when losing lane is not difficult, but depending on the enemy comp you will run the same risk as usual for an enemy dive happening. You'll still pick up the coins while you run around your tower trying not to die to the dive though. ;)

All joking aside, we are prepared to tune the risk under turrets should it be a larger problem than what we've seen in our internal playtests.

As far gold generation, the Coin Line is tuned to have rough parity with the other two, excluding the coins generated by takedowns.

Krys Star2 votes

Thinking about it now, I'm kind of scared of how the loss of Coin line's heal on minion death will affect Soraka. It's an indirect nerf to her, and would hurt her survival against aggressive lanes (Leona, Nami, Sona, Blitzcrank, Zyra, Malzahar, Thresh which is pretty much 90% of your supports).

Will you guys be watching her?

RiotColin5 votes

Definitely will be keeping an eye on her :)

HexaDecimel1 votes

Will we get to see more info on the tank update along with the mid season changes? Or do we have to wait for that?

RiotMeddler4 votes

Tank changes should be on PBE later today.

Azuraccoon1 votes

for the Ancient Coin's Drop: How long do the coins last on the ground and is there a limit on how many there can be?

RiotColin4 votes

They last 15s and there is currently no limit to how many can be out. That being said the rate that they drop at significantly limits the number on the ground at once.

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