Boards›Dev Corner

Touching base on Runes Balance for Pre-season

RiotRiot MapleNectar·11/9/2017, 11:03:02 PM·1 votes·34,400 views

Hey, all. Maple Nectar here, Producer on the Live Team (aka Balance team).

IT’S HAPPENING!!! As you’ve almost certainly noticed, Runes Reforged is finally here! I can’t even begin to express how fun and exciting it is to get to be a part of the journey as we usher in the largest gameplay update to League ever! We’re super stoked to see how the new system changes how you look at the game, how they impact the decisions you make, and how your path to victory is forged with the new runes. They've been live for 2 full days now (1 if you’re not from OCE), and we're starting to get a clearer picture of what the “balance” landscape looks like in this new world. We’re seeing tons of experimentation (Klepto support GP, Glacial Augment Jhin) which we’re super happy to see, as those creative decisions are something we were really hoping to get out of Runes. With that in mind, I'd like to take a moment to briefly discuss how we'll be approaching balance in the next few days/weeks in this post, and make sure everyone get an idea of what at a high level we're going to try to accomplish over the course of pre-season. This is likely the first of a number of posts over the next while

Firstly, our goal is not going to be “get every champion to 50% winrate as fast as possible”. That wasn't our goal before pre-season, and that doesn’t change with everything out in the wild now. With Runes we expect to see a lot more creative decision making than before, choices that vary based on the champion you’re taking, your team comp, and who you’re facing. There’s sure to end up being some level of optimization between champions and the new runes system, but when a player gets creative and comes up with a really smart combination of champion and runes, we expect them to also be rewarded with a greater chance to succeed. That being said, there are always edge cases, and if we see something that warps gameplay in a way we’re not happy with we’ll step in and intervene even if winrates look within reason. We're also likely to step in if it appears that some champions are struggling to find success in the new system, as we want you to be able to take any champion, make cool choices, and have a chance to win.

We’re starting to get an idea of how things are shaking out, though for a change so huge it’s going to take quite some time until dust settles and we have a clear picture of how everything looks both as individual pieces, and in the larger picture. We're going to try to solve the right issue, so if we see a champion succeeding disproportionately with a specific set of Runes compared to other champions in it’s class, we’re likely to take a good hard look at that individual champion and the things that changed around it (base stats, keystones etc). If an entire class moves disproportionately, that’s a signal of systemic changes being the culprit, so we’ll look to solve that as opposed to changing each individual champion. We don’t want to make the mistake of over correcting anything (champions/runes/items etc), since preseason is supposed to be a time of experimentation and creative decision making, but you can expect us to start acting proactively on things we’re not quite comfortable with. Tomorrow we’re likely to start talking about what we intend to micropatch and work on before Patch 7.23 lands.

We're super pumped to see the crazy shit you’re trying, so keep it coming and Preseason responsibly.

85 Comments

Jaghatai11/9/2017, 11:40:20 PM9 votes

My knee-jerk reaction ... Not a fan so far ... I play tank heavy champs and feel like I have very very very few pigeon-holed options compared to every other "class" in the game.

As someone who plays bruisers, tanks and juggernauts it seems like RIOT only made sure that ADC and Mages are well represented with options in the new system.

I can barely even raise my resistances for goodness-sakes.

I'll keep plugging along, but right now ... this feels very lack-luster ... I feel like it will be even worst than last season. I'll end up making about 3 "run pages" and that will pretty much be it because there are zero options for building tanky champs.

Karn Bishop11/10/2017, 12:41:37 AM8 votes

Why is it ok for eve to have hard counter matchups where she can't do anything without risking death? In particular kha, jarvan, xin, as an example can all cast 2-3 spell rotations to your one rotation, no need to guess who wins that one.

She needs to have higher base MS or not have such a massive CD on Q vs champions.

Risk of Fate11/9/2017, 11:32:22 PM7 votes

[deleted]

The Yetii Rider11/9/2017, 11:24:26 PM6 votes

I feel like Guardian is really punishing and awkward. If you're playing the type of champion that wants to use Guardian (a tank, who is more likely to have a larger character model than a squishy character) you practically have to get ontop of your allies to even set up the Guard. The radius is incredibly small. I feel like I'm playing Sona each time I try to use it, and that's not a good thing.

Grace Of Kaizen11/10/2017, 9:01:18 AM4 votes

I love how much more carry potential the dmg dealers have again. Even if snowballing might be too insane atm, (we'll have to see) I love that as a mid-lane burst mage player I feel like I can impact the actual game again.

Tank meta made my champion pool scream. Ahri, Lux, and other burst mages feel so much better with this system. Since everyone is squishier though it means as a damage dealer you die pretty fast so it definitely feels fair so far in my experience.

Snowballing does seem to feel a little off, teams are stomping pretty hard but I think it might just a case of people who are playing with optimal choices of runes vs. those that just chose randomly, or what they were told was op ((but not understanding why, or how)).

But with no straight up base stat runes to fall back on, getting behind is rough. Maybe the advantages of getting an early lead will just need reduced. I noticed that herald feels really strong right now.

hopeful411/10/2017, 12:12:01 AM4 votes

Please, please dont be discouraged by the knee-jerking in here about "TOO MUCH DAMAGE" and stuff. I greatly love this preseason, its easier to roam and make plays. It feels such a breath of fresh air after 3 dull seasons (imo). Please dont make everything hit like a wet noodle again

As a side note, i think that you went too hard with the nerfs on Harvest. I feel that its weaker than Electro in most cases, even if you want to scale

Jar Jar binks l11/9/2017, 11:07:52 PM4 votes

Why didnt volibear get 15% Attack Speed buff like Amumu.I suggest u try to Play Volibear with Resolve tree and watch his Jungle clear Speed. Its so bad , it is rediciolous. I have to take Precision or I cant farm with him

laststanding611/10/2017, 2:36:58 AM4 votes

why is the conversion rate for ip-be so shit for old players besides money? I mean you've effectively took your oldest players and gave them a punch in the face and a parting fuck you for their loyalty some of which have been around since season wrong. I mean correct me if I'm wrong but that really shouldn't be how you treat your most loyal players. You guys keep either dodging or avoid the question. It would be nice if we could get a straight faced answer.

On a side note, kleptomancy is really good but shouldn't be nerfed as it is an extremely interesting keystone.

Necrothis11/15/2017, 1:19:20 AM3 votes

Worst system I have ever seen. How the hell did you guys think this would be a good idea.

BE system is stupid

New runes are not runes stop calling them that. They are Keystones. They are cookie cutter as all hell. Everyone will use the same sets for each champ. That is not good. I can see why you would want it. You are lazy as all hell. You cannot cope with people doing things and making there own play style so you just blanket nerf all champ types this way. Seeing as everyone who plays that champ type MUST use the runes the way you want.

Good luck... Uninstall time.

equinox reaper11/11/2017, 4:14:52 AM3 votes

Let's talk about how we're only allowed 2 custom rune pages. I've been playing for 5+ years now and this might be the stupidest thing you've done. You took away masteries where we could premake a bunch of different pages for different champs we play with no fees or anything. Now you essentially just have masteires a different name and we have the pay for more custom pages? Idk where the logic is but you guys are going to have to find me. I stil think these new changes for the runes are really fun and cool but please change that.

Melledoneus11/9/2017, 11:06:44 PM3 votes

Quick question.

Which runes do you see as being over-the-top and which ones are underwhelming, from initial observations?

I won't take this as a promise as to what will be nerfed and what won't, but I'm curious what it looks like through your eyes.

TNing of Pine11/10/2017, 9:12:24 PM3 votes

I asked this on Meddler's post but I think it might fit better here:

Has there been any discussion about changing the UI for selecting Runes in Champ Select to feel more like "select your runes for this game" as opposed to "select one of your rune pages (and possibly edit your pages in the process)"? The high price of pages feels super limiting when you have to actually modify one of those pages every time you're customizing runes for a particular game, and it puts a barrier in front of experimentation: "I'd like to use the preset Precision page but tweak it slightly" should be easy, but it really isn't if you've only got the default two pages and you're already using them both.

Vermonster11/10/2017, 7:28:29 PM2 votes

Thank god for Maple Nectar. The only Rioter to ever address the community right after a patch goes badly in terms of balance. You're the only Rioter I see in these Boards I appreciate man. Cheers. (Also nerf the shit out of AD assassins. AP mid laners cannot touch them or even stay in lane against them)

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Nefas11/9/2017, 11:16:50 PM2 votes

It is nice to hear general principles but when will we hear actual specifics on balance?

Hupsis11/9/2017, 11:38:17 PM2 votes

Overall good job on the runes. But I think you should make a separate runes feedback thread on the boards. We had one on the PBE boards and it was a nice place to post feedback. Actual feedback gets drowned in the boards so easily.

That said... if there's not gonna be a feedback thread. Here's my quick contribution:

Waterwalking should be more interactive to differentiate it from celerity. Give it a luden's echo like charging mechanic while walking in the river. When fully charged, hitting an enemy or ally with an ability would heal you or the ally. Passive movement speed is fine as is.

More feedback: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/IUOsNmBe-rune-feedback-suggestions

ModKnightsKemplar11/10/2017, 12:43:26 AM2 votes

Thank you for touching base! I'm really looking forward to hearing some data analysis from y'all. This already feels like a big shake-up, and I'm sure that will bear out in the numbers in some form or fashion.

Northmund11/10/2017, 4:01:29 AM2 votes

50% winrate does not mean champion is balanced. #doritobalanceteam

Heretic79811/10/2017, 3:07:02 PM2 votes

Is mobility creep being talked about at all on this pagch? When I play adc, I feel like I do a lot of damage on this patch, but I also feel like I constantly get run down and one-shotted. A Hecarim 100 to 0 me with one ability without being insanely fed (just a bit ahead).

Elf049111/21/2017, 9:51:25 PM2 votes

So I just had a thought. I know the whole 'Adaptive' thing has been a big part of the new runes, and I think it was a good and creative way to give both AD and AP champs access to a lot of the runes. But what if you took it a step further and were willing to include other stats? Say you have a really versatile fighter champ with a rune that granted AD or AR, adaptive. this could allow them to be more versatile in building more as a tank, or as a duelist. Especially considering a lot of the concerns with the removal of flat stats that the old system granted, you could even potentially do this with more rune bonuses, like sorcery has done with its AP/AD bonus for choosing it as your primary. Could something like that work?

Dokueki Kenshin11/14/2017, 5:02:04 PM1 votes

I’m mostly enjoying my time with runes, but I will agree that the resolve tree is far more lackluster than I was hoping. Outside of the keystones, your decisions don’t seem particularly impactful, nor do they seem particularly diverse.

As an example, other than the one rune in sorcery, I see no runes that offer temporary shields outside of Guardian, which is honestly made for supports. While I get that shield stacking was a problem last season, having active survivability tools in the top lane in runes might help make full tank picks more appealing.

lućas11/10/2017, 8:01:18 PM1 votes

Draven is quite horrid with Press the Attack and the precision tree, but with sorcery and summon aery he is very good. Im sure you didnt intend for an ADC to use the sorcery runes, is this intented and will it be changed? i dont think draven is the problem but the runes.

Danni Chimes11/15/2017, 12:12:16 PM1 votes

I. Love. It. As a 6 year LoL player, I really like this approach you all are taking. The advantages of certain combinations isn't just spelled out for everyone to see...it's possible to specifically tailor runes to fit your playstyle (whether that playstyle varies based on champ or versus a certain champ). I know there will be adjustment along the way, but i'm dialed in. I know you all are receiving a ton of hate for these changes, but most of it is a LARGE overreaction. Keep marching forward.

Onward and upward! [leblanc-funny]

RRektK11/20/2017, 1:08:19 PM1 votes

Hi!

Why u guys dont let us do infinity rune pages, some of the champs need other keystone runes, but cant cause slots are full, with mastery pages in season 7 i had 20 mastery pages.. you guys should increase that. :D

Thank you for your time!

HaytG11/21/2017, 10:11:45 AM1 votes

You definitely have to do something with system of earning BE, getting one champion from Capsule at 16 lvl which you can disenchant for 210BE is a joke, and in very bad taste. Removing way to earn PZ (now BE) from every played game was a terrible idea. In my opinion you shouldn’t have removed it, as you did it you should have for example decreased cost of every champion for at least 25% up to 50% or disenchanting champion shard should give you 100% of champion cost.

xFarkius11/21/2017, 3:22:36 PM1 votes

I love the new rune system. But i keep complaining about one thing: Duskblade. I think it is way too strong. And i mean we all know that it is. You can almost buy it on any champion. For example: Miss Fortune can rush Duskblade and if you make it to get an empowered Q on the enemies they are like from 100% to 20% (i'm serious i'm playing her myself and that is way too much damage). Same thing goes with all AD-Junglers. Kha'Zix, Rengar, Hecarim, Jarvan, Kayn and many more. I was actually extremely confused when i saw that you buffed Duskblade at the start of the new rune system.

Long story short: New rune system = awesome!!! Duskblade = super duper mega MEH!!!

Beli9h11/28/2017, 10:22:04 AM1 votes

New champion is overpower don't you think? at lv 6 if you got hit by her really really long sleep she can one shot you..., new runes make kassadin after leveling up, his ultimate is far beyond overpowered.. fix in new patch maybe ?

Mattheω 11/22/2017, 7:12:05 PM1 votes

IP will be back again?

Danielkingzz161611/24/2017, 8:16:36 PM1 votes

I kinda like and hate the new runes for loots of reason and other thing but i like the most the power ones its just i have problem i cant make for evry camp runes

Yordleassault11/12/2017, 8:09:20 PM1 votes

Yeah, I'd also love to experiment around with runes... shame it feels impossible and discouraged :( I only have 2 rune pages and already had to squeeze 3 playstyles into them. With the mastery system I could get away with buying 0 pages cause they were only stats and the mastery pages were free. Now, I'll have to grind half a year and spend exclusively on rune pages in that time to make the system comfortable (at least 1 page for each playstyle/favorite champ) and THEN I will be able to start actual experimentation... Shame, I was so hyped and I still feel hyped for the possibility, but my enthusiasm is just killed off completely as I feel like I'm forced to grind exclusively with the 3 playstyles (2 champions) that I was able to fit into my 2 rune pages, and avoid playing with anyone else (as they can't yet have their proper rune pages)... Feels bad, man*[cass-cry]*