Is this a Public Forum or is this a Publisher?

CominTowardsYa·Oct 24, 2019·2 votes·3,585 views

I was thinking about this today because I have seen some things on these boards that look as though they are protecting some things from being allowed to be written here.

Okay I get it, no one likes people telling the cold hard truth about their company if there is something bad to say about it, but here we are as people who can express our opinion publicly on these forums, so that the things we see that are wrong can be communicated and corrected.

This is what I assume the intention of this public forum is.

I also notice that people who write things that are disagreeable, are labeled uncivil, and their content is therefore subject to censorship at the whim of the angry blind and faithful riot supporters who get mad in the forums and disrupt ideas and discussions from being just that, a discussion and turn them into debates, which lead to sarcastic and hateful passive aggressive comments, which in turn baits people into defending their position, and sometimes slipping up and getting their content deleted or getting banned from the forums.

If this does not happen however, worry not, because there are people waiting and standing by in droves who will down vote anything not approved by this public forum.

Down Votes work like this, if you get a negative balance your post goes below the viewable threshold unless new content by the author and others if added. This means, the thread can be locked, a group of summoned supporters will just down vote your thread and it goes away.

That sounds an awful lot like what a publisher should be able to do, not a public forum.

My suggestion:

Get rid of the effect of Up and Down voting, it has no place in a public forum, and inhibits free thinking, ideas and speech on the subject of League of Legends.

Mods, manage both sides of the coin, not just the people agreeing with you and what you like, obviously if you did this, no one would be complaining about it. So don't delete people's stuff without first giving them advice, also, if you are going to enact any type of boards punishment be JUST as harsh with people defending Riot as you are with those criticizing it.

This is noticed, unfair, and discredits this as a "Public Forum"

19 Comments

ModThe DjinnOct 24, 20199 votes

{quoted}I also notice that people who write things that are disagreeable, are labeled uncivil, and their content is therefore subject to censorship...

We remove things that violate the Universal Board Rules, as described in the post linked at the top of the navigation menu. We do not remove things for content that is critical of Riot, League, board moderation, etc. unless said content violates those rules in how it is presented.

This means, the thread can be locked, a group of summoned supporters will just down vote your thread and it goes away.

Downvoted threads are not locked or hidden (although downvoted posts that get enough downvotes are collapsed by default). The only time a thread is locked is if it violates a rule or the conversation on it has become too heated and risks requiring heavy moderator effort and attention.

Mods, manage both sides of the coin, not just the people agreeing with you and what you like, obviously if you did this, no one would be complaining about it.

We do do this. I have removed any number of comments I personally agree with in principle because they way they are presented is in violation of the rules.

So do't delete people's stuff without first giving them advice...

Content that violates the rules will continue to be removed when appropriate. We do sometimes issue text warnings or recommendations first where we deem it appropriate.

Also, if you are going to enact any type of boards punishment be JUST as harsh with people defending Riot as you are with those criticizing it.

We punish both pro- and anti- Riot comments fairly equally for the same violations. The player's individual behavioral history may impact this one way or another.

ModUlanopoOct 24, 20196 votes

Do you think this Forum is balanced and fair?

I don't think that's a question with a simple answer. The Boards have to serve many needs, some of which aren't fully compatible. There are people who want moderation to be more relaxed; there are those who prefer it more strict.

CaptainAntiHerozOct 24, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I don't think that's a question with a simple answer. The Boards have to serve many needs, some of which aren't fully compatible. There are people who want moderation to be more relaxed; there are those who prefer it more strict.

Yo are the boards gonna expand to encompass the new rito games like it did for TFT? kind of a side question but im curious

also good point

CominTowardsYaOct 24, 20191 votes

Do you think it facilitates fair and honest discussion on both sides if it is more relaxed or more strict?

My opinion on Moderation is that Mods should not be punishers, they should enforce standards to run a business.

How to convey something without sounding insensitive, while staying the the point? I can't say if volunteers are good or not, I think somehow you should be paid, but how would that work, I don't know.

I do not think the boards are fair, and The Djinn mentions a counter to every point above, but the tricky thing here is, that I am not wrong about those points of order, but I am also aware that I am not absolutely right either.

Sometimes a heated debate can happen, and when it does, its completely up in the air as to how mad or how uncivil something becomes before its locked, deleted or a suspension/ban is issued. I don't like this, and I have seen it happen, one sided.

ModThe DjinnOct 24, 20195 votes

{quoted}Do you think it facilitates fair and honest discussion on both sides if it is more relaxed or more strict?

The latter. When insults, condescending comments, and harassment are allowed then discussion tends to cease to be mutually agreeable (or even a discussion) and become a situation where two people try to insult each other more and neither listens to the other or has an open mind. This happens a lot, and we have seen it happen numerous times when we're slow to moderate a heated argument.

My opinion on Moderation is that Mods should not be punishers, they should enforce standards to run a business.

As per Riot's rules and Riot's expectations of us, issuing appropriate punishments to people who break the rules is part of our responsibilities. There are many previously banned individuals who would keep breaking the same rules again and again if we did not have the power to issue bans, and that would degrade the board experience and increase moderator workload exponentially.

How to convey something without sounding insensitive, while staying the the point?

Numerous ways. There are perfectly friendly and even respectful ways to disagree with someone.

CominTowardsYaOct 24, 20191 votes

I don't find very friendly people disagreeing with others here in general. They are condescending and make circular arguments, and as you say, don't listen or open their mind to the other side, as well they tend to avoid answer questions.

Why I think the position and duty of Mods being punishers is a problem, is that we aren't all children, and Mods are not Parents, but that is kind of the feel and environment here, but I know some Mods have to be what, 19-21 years old? Thats silly. No one that age should be a parent to anyone in the online community, I don't that is what we need. I don't have an answer as to how you would implement shirking the duty as Punisher, while enforcing the Rule as best you can.

Then we are back to square one if you can't which is workload, and being unpaid.

But I am not here for the purpose of fixing the boards, I just wanted to point out my perspective on whats wrong with it, because I do see it, and I hope it somehow improves.

With that said, I think we all can improve our written speech and civility, so if anything maybe someone will read this, learn something and benefit.

ModPrandineOct 25, 20192 votes

{quoted}

I don't find very friendly people disagreeing with others here in general. They are condescending and make circular arguments, and as you say, don't listen or open their mind to the other side, as well they tend to avoid answer questions.

Depends on where you look. While it's true that some people only want Yesman answers and that's it there are others who are open to civil discussion and disagreements.

Why I think the position and duty of Mods being punishers is a problem, is that we aren't all children, and Mods are not Parents, but that is kind of the feel and environment here, but I know some Mods have to be what, 19-21 years old? Thats silly. No one that age should be a parent to anyone in the online community, I don't that is what we need.

Here's the thing though: age =/= maturity, and there are plenty of 19-21 year olds out there who are far more mature then people in their 30s+. While I do see your point here somewhat, if you only look at age as a sign of maturity then you're opening things up to a whole host of problems. Yes mods are not parents, and in an ideal world we wouldn't have to mod the boards at all. Unfortunately though that's not the case, hence the necessity of mods in a world where people think anonymity = freedom from accountability.

I don't have an answer as to how you would implement shirking the duty as Punisher, while enforcing the Rule as best you can.

Then we are back to square one if you can't which is workload, and being unpaid.

Back in the early days of LoL when the Tribunal (the punishment system before the IFS where players would vote on cases to punish or pardon) gave out very small IP rewards for correct majority verdicts some people only participated for those rewards rather than to help clean up the community. When they were removed most of those participators left along with them. That's the danger when having paid volunteers, and why being unpaid but maybe having an occasional surprise reward thrown in every now and then for good work is more beneficial for jobs like this.

But I am not here for the purpose of fixing the boards, I just wanted to point out my perspective on whats wrong with it, because I do see it, and I hope it somehow improves.

With that said, I think we all can improve our written speech and civility, so if anything maybe someone will read this, learn something and benefit.

I agree that we can do better when communicating with others, but that also requires people like moderators to help keep things civil and weed out those who just want to flame at anyone that dares to disagree with them.

CominTowardsYaOct 25, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Depends on where you look. While it's true that some people only want Yesman answers and that's it there are others who are open to civil discussion and disagreements.

I have had these discussions with Mods. Those are the only people save a few over the years. Should I only engage with Mods then? You guys know the rules better than anyone, if you're charged with enforcing them. A bit canned an dry though, doesn't seem as genuine and real as others.

Here's the thing though: age =/= maturity, and there are plenty of 19-21 year olds out there who are far more mature then people in their 30s+. While I do see your point here somewhat, if you only look at age as a sign of maturity then you're opening things up to a whole host of problems. Yes mods are not parents, and in an ideal world we wouldn't have to mod the boards at all. Unfortunately though that's not the case, hence the necessity of mods in a world where people think anonymity = freedom from accountability.

You're right, age doesn't grant anyone maturity, however having responsibilities and being accountable are traits I would look for as a test for maturity. Younger people tend to have less of those things, but as we know, 40 years olds can act like they are 5. Agreed.

Back in the early days of LoL when the Tribunal (the punishment system before the IFS where players would vote on cases to punish or pardon) gave out very small IP rewards for correct majority verdicts some people only participated for those rewards rather than to help clean up the community. When they were removed most of those participators left along with them. That's the danger when having paid volunteers, and why being unpaid but maybe having an occasional surprise reward thrown in every now and then for good work is more beneficial for jobs like this.

So I never was able to participate in the Tribunal system, which is a shame, because it sounds interesting. I wish they were back, I would help out too.

I agree that we can do better when communicating with others, but that also requires people like moderators to help keep things civil and weed out those who just want to flame at anyone that dares to disagree with them.

Glad to have you as part of the discussion, I find it odd that not one person has even bothered to engage on this topic save heralds and mods. Wasn't expecting this many of you.

ModThe DjinnOct 25, 20192 votes

{quoted}You guys know the rules better than anyone, if you're charged with enforcing them. A bit canned an dry though, doesn't seem as genuine and real as others.

When it comes to discussing rules or correcting assumptions, things can come off a little canned, sure, just because a lot of us have said this sort of thing a lot. I promise if you get me in a discussion about game design or a back-and-forth on the rules you'll find me a bit less canned. :P

Glad to have you as part of the discussion, I find it odd that not one person has even bothered to engage on this topic save heralds and mods.

We keep an eye on community concerns here, and try to answer things when we can. A lot of the points raised here become part of our internal discussions about the community. So the feedback is appreciated and heard!

ModUlanopoOct 24, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Do you think it facilitates fair and honest discussion on both sides if it is more relaxed or more strict?

I think the best discussion happens when people argue with integrity and from a position of mutual respect. Barring that, as The Djinn says, someone has to keep the peace. One need only look at the comments on Facebook or YouTube to see what nonexistent moderation produces.

CominTowardsYaOct 25, 20191 votes

Okay fair enough, I agree with you here. Mutual respect and integrity are important I find people lack both often and it gets silly.

FaceBook is a cesspool, but its only people you know if you scrub your friends list often. I don't engage with too many people on FaceBook, but I wish people were more willing to be honest and respectful.

Youtube seems to be okay, and they take down videos all the time. The comments sections on videos are pretty funny imo. They are a public Forum and are currently being sued by Prager U for censorship, which is something I might go watch in the Courtroom locally Tomorrow. It actually inspired me to write this post.

ModUlanopoOct 24, 20191 votes

{quoted}

I can't say if volunteers are good or not, I think somehow you should be paid, but how would that work, I don't know.

Having volunteer moderators weeds out those who would do it simply for the money. Also, there are considerations of employment law that make it very, very tricky.

GatekeeperTDSOct 25, 20192 votes

Everyone's already addressed your points thoroughly, but let me add this -

This is not a public forum. This is private property that is open to the public for use. Like a gas station, or a restaurant, or a car dealership, or a movie theater. This is not a governemt-run public space like a park or a library.

CominTowardsYaOct 25, 20191 votes

Good to know, so this is NOT a public forum. I will look into this further, and perhaps this should be openly titled as not being a public forum. Or are you meaning the in game chat? I know that riot is a private company that fits your gas station analogy. Are you sure?

ModThe DjinnOct 25, 20194 votes

{quoted}

Good to know, so this is NOT a public forum. I will look into this further, and perhaps this should be openly titled as not being a public forum. Or are you meaning the in game chat? I know that riot is a private company that fits your gas station analogy. Are you sure?

It is a public forum in that anyone with a League account can post. It is a privately operated board though, meaning that Riot can implement rules and, at their discretion (or the discretion of those they empower to do so), posters can be denied access for violating those rules.

Much like how your local public park or your local Starbucks is open to everyone, but has rules that are enforced and violating those rules can get you banned from being allowed to utilize the park's amenities / Starbuck's services.

Pretty much all internet forums and boards operate this way -- the organization hosting the board gets to make and enforce rules as they see fit.

rujitraOct 26, 20191 votes

I think your example of Starbucks is very good - they have very lenient rules so as to allow as many people as possible to use their space as a public gathering space - but they are still a private company with the right to enforce the rules they decide are appropriate for their stores.

ModiOct 25, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Good to know, so this is NOT a public forum. I will look into this further, and perhaps this should be openly titled as not being a public forum. Or are you meaning the in game chat? I know that riot is a private company that fits your gas station analogy. Are you sure?

~~Let me rephrase for TDS:~~

This is a space for conversation open to the public, provided said conversation follows the applicable rules. This is no different than any space that has been opened up to the public. For example, you can't just go into a coffee shop and start spouting obscenities. You would likely be kicked out. If you follow the rules of the space, you will have no problems.

~~Both the coffee shop and these boards are privately owned, but they have both been opened up to the public.~~

EDIT: Dammit The Djinn, you beat me to it.

ModThe DjinnOct 26, 20191 votes