My thoughts on the new Gameplay+ board

i cant move wtf·Aug 22, 2018·6 votes·2,566 views

I really like the goals and intention behind it. However I think whether it succeeds or fails in those goals will fully depend on the execution. If the moderators can keep their biases in check and remain impartial I think this will be a great addition. The self-curation of the normal gameplay board through the downvote system I think is inherently toxic, encouraging group-think and pillaging, and only benefits the lowest common denominator of opinions. Fringe opinions and viewpoints are routinely grouped in with genuine low quality content, making any decent discussion of these topics difficult at best.

From what I read in the intro post though I feel like those that have created this new board share a similar opinion and that makes me optimistic for how it will turn out. So for those that put this idea together and executed it, good on you. It seems you do care about a higher quality of discussion and for that it restores some of my faith in what this forum can become and I look forward to seeing how it unfolds.

EDIT: After reading some comments and thinking about things more, I think this new board will have more success if it errs on the side of leniency for topic acceptance and lets the community silently flag content they think is low quality for the moderators to evaluate for removal. This will make the approval process more manageable for the mod staff (it won't be a big deal if a few low quality posts sneak through) and safeguard against any selection biases the mods might develop.

16 Comments

FixHealsRemoveGWAug 22, 20184 votes

I honestly can't share your optimism because there are already threads approved that only focus on what the writers find frustrating or what they don't like.

Apparently it's accepted to argue that subjective emotions of players constitute an issue that needs to be addressed so whether there actually is an issue is not even analyzed in the first place. Arguing out of frustration is still the way to go instead of taking a neutral stance on the topic.

But this community has huge mentality issues and we know that, because otherwise circlejerking wouldn't be such a big problem to begin with.

Gameplay+ is circle-jerking+

It's still not objective and it's still overwhelmingly one-sided. Which to me is not surprising.

Pretty much anything that rule 2 forbids:

Posts must provide a thoughtful analysis or other meaningful starting point for discussion. Data should be cited where possible, and hyperbole is not appropriate. Do not let your passion about some aspect of the game cloud your ability to present your views, and do not let your views get in the way of having a respectful discussion.

has been broken and approved several times already.

whether it succeeds or fails in those goals will fully depend on the execution. If the moderators can keep their biases in check and remain impartial I think this will be a great addition.

ModThe DjinnAug 22, 20185 votes

{quoted}I honestly can't share your optimism because there are already threads approved that only focus on what the writers find frustrating or what they don't like.

I should clarify something then.

The goal was not to say you can't share your thoughts on things you don't like or find frustrating. The goal is that you must be able to cleanly present your views and invite meaningful discussion even within that personal opinion. Neutral stances are not mandatory, nor are we saying "I feel this is frustrating for these reasons" is not potentially acceptable if presented in a sufficiently detailed manner.

So that rule about avoiding hyperbole and not letting passion cloud your ability to present your views is a guideline with a bit of leeway. A post about "I find Yasuo endlessly frustrating, and here are the elements of his kit that cause that. What could we do to resolve this?" could be fine, for example, as long as people are free to say "I don't think this is actually as big a problem as you think, and here's why."

I'll also fully admit that, as we first start exploring this, we might make mistakes here and there. :)

FixHealsRemoveGWAug 22, 20182 votes

In other words you encourage players to do elaborate and longer one-sided rants that can contain hyperbole and can lack analysis, because you fail to see how absolutely crucial it is to uphold objectivity and critical thinking as standards.

Then I don't see the value of this Gameplay+

It's the same thing.

What's your take on the frustration arguments? Do you honestly think that it leads somewhere other than "Riot sucks and doesn't listen to us" when people don't even question themselves and take their own frustration as fact?

What do you think players mean when they say that the boards are circlejerking? That the template wasn't big and long enough? Hell, no. It's about lack of critical thinking and objectivity.

I'd rather read a short and hateful comment with 100 upvotes instead of some essays where players celebrate their discontent excessively. Takes less time and has the same value.

ModThe DjinnAug 22, 20182 votes

{quoted}...because you fail to see how absolutely crucial it is to uphold objectivity and critical thinking as standards.

More that we understand that individual player perspective can influence gameplay feel, or that reasonable people can have reasonably different viewpoints. If you feel games are too long and I feel games are too short, I can present my argument for why games should be lengthened and what changes I might suggest to do that. We can have actual discussion and analysis about the game even when we disagree on things like what makes good design.

Then I don't see the value of this Gameplay+

It may not be a board for you then. We don't expect it to appeal to everyone.

What's your take on the frustration arguments?

If an argument becomes "I don't like it and so it's automatically bad, and your conflicting opinion can go fuck itself," then we'll take steps to remove it. We'll allow people to reasonably discuss things that frustrate them, but the emphasis is on the discussion. If it becomes simply venting, or we don't think the OP is honestly interested in discussion, we'll either remove or simply not approve the thread in question.

FixHealsRemoveGWAug 22, 20181 votes

You can read my reply to Chermog where I explain what I think is a reasonable discussion of someones frustration, and also how important neutrality is if you discuss balance....

ChermorgAug 22, 20183 votes

{quoted}

In other words you encourage players to do elaborate and longer one-sided rants that can contain hyperbole and can lack analysis, because you fail to see how absolutely crucial it is to uphold objectivity and critical thinking as standards.

In fact, hyperbole and lacking analysis are the two easiest ways to get a thread rejected from approval on Gameplay+, no matter how long the post is. Just wanted to pop in here and mention that since Djinn didn’t address those two things in his response - the intro thread specifically addresses both analysis and hyperbole.

Now, it is important to remember that “This champion is frustrating to me” is not hyperbole. It is opinion. It is not hyperbole, and it is certainly possible to provide analysis to back that up.

FixHealsRemoveGWAug 22, 20182 votes

Now, it is important to remember that “This champion is frustrating to me” is not hyperbole.

Of course that is not a hyperbole. But it's a lack of analysis if you don't like something and declare it to be an issue and then skip to suggesting removal as solution. The first step would actually be to analyze your own frustration. Well what is frustration?

the feeling of being upset or annoyed as a result of being unable to change or achieve something.

Then the question is am I able to change or achieve something or not? And why? When talking about champions you can't really get around looking at winrates or well known counter picks and also your own gameplay and meta skills.

I think you see were this is going.

Frustration is too dependent on individual skills and indicates a personal issue, unless you can find convincing arguments that whatever you are having that issue with is clearly overpowered.

So you see it's really impractical to take your own frustration as starting point for a general discussion.

The reasonable thing to do if you are frustrated is to calm down and find solutions for yourself and maybe ask for advice.

For balance discussions I think it's extremely important to be neutral, because balance requires neutrality, you literally can't discuss it if you prefer one side or are emotionally affected.

Rule 2: Posts must provide a thoughtful analysis or other meaningful starting point for discussion. Data should be cited where possible,

Now let me show you some actual hyperboles

Enchanter game play is extremely uninspired:

Sona, for example, has NO variance in her kit. It's all automated in aiming

Like...her WHOLE KIT is just dedicated to power spamming heals. I get it, but...there's NOTHING else she does to any real competence

Everything about her balancing's wrapped around the notion that you just wanna blast W on someone's head

Just how much did we have to nerf this chick for her to FINALLY...FINALLY stop putting the entire support role in a choke hold?

and so on and so on... it's just tedious to read tbh.

Rule 2 hyperbole is not appropriate. Do not let your passion about some aspect of the game cloud your ability to present your views

If these are not hyperboles and a ton of passion clouding someones view then idk what would be.

PS: obviously the analysis falls flat too as a result and vice versa if you argue based on your own frustration it's very likely that passion will get in the way of presenting your opinion on aspects of the game.

ChermorgAug 22, 20182 votes

Opinions are not hyperbole so long as they are validly held. It is fully possible that player legitimately believes those things. You may disagree with what they're saying, but a statement is not hyperbolic unless it is an extreme being used to describe a lesser.

FixHealsRemoveGWAug 22, 20181 votes

Now you are just finding excuses and hiding behind the established rules that you interpret however you want.

So you can have an opinion that consist only of hyperboles and when something obviously is a hyperbole you don't even see it as rule violation as long as the writer actually believes it? How do you even control it then? Mind reading?

Do you just remove hyperboles that you don't like and keep the ones you like?

I said it already: critically thinking and objectivity. Not just on the player side but also the moderation. Riot needs to do that too, so it only makes sense that the players try to do the same when they want to have a reasonable dialogue.

That's what really matters if you actually want to improve the discussions.

And I am sorry if I sound harsh but I can't help it, it has to be said.

Can you give me some feedback on my discussion of frustration and how it interacts with the analysis of the topic? You kinda skipped that.

ChermorgAug 22, 20182 votes

If someone holds an opinion, it is by definition not hyperbole. For example, if I present the opinion that all my classes are stupid, you may consider that hyperbole - but if I actually consider all of my classes to be stupid (or useless/whatever) then it’s not actually hyperbole.

Opinions by definition are not facts - and Gameplay+ does not prohibit opinions. In fact, almost all gameplay discussion is opinion - there is absolutely no objectively “perfect” balance solution.

Frustration is a term that is so vague and honestly irrelevant here - if someone’s frustrated, but presents their frustration in a logical way, there is no problem whatsoever.

FixHealsRemoveGWAug 22, 20181 votes

If someone’s frustrated, but presents their frustration in a logical way, there is no problem whatsoever.

Which nobody is doing, I explained it, it's such a huge problem and yes it is vague and it is irrelevant which is part of it being the problem, but you are allowing them to throw around irrelevant terms.

If someone holds an opinion, it is by definition not hyperbole. For example, if I present the opinion that all my classes are stupid, you may consider that hyperbole - but if I actually consider all of my classes to be stupid (or useless/whatever) then it’s not actually hyperbole.

If you say that you hopefully have good reason.

So when I say "enchanter design is unspirired" That is the opinion. And then I use "Soraka does only spam heals and does nothing else" as reason. That is not a good argument and is in fact a hyperbole and it is stereotyping. Then I don't even bother to prove that Soraka only spams heals and does nothing else. ( not like that would be necessary because it's obviously wrong)

So now I have one opinion supported by another opinion of mine supported by actually nothing. And because everything is just "opinion" i can break all the rules, that's so convenient!

To me it's ridiculous that we are having this discussion.

At this point I am just wondering what kind of hyperbole you consider to be against the rules if there are any at all.

I guess no matter how silly the claim you can always brush it away as just another opinion. I could write the most ridiculous made up nonsense to boost my own ego and blame everything on Riot, because they only care for money, and my teammates, who are all mentally disabled. It's just an opinion, right?

I don't see how this will create quality discussions... more like quantity rants.

i cant move wtfAug 22, 20181 votes

Honestly I agree with you here. I feel like this new board could easily fall into a length-bias trap where after the novelty wears off on the moderators it won't be worth it for them to thoughtfully consider each topic for approval, and so topics won't even be considered if they're not long-winded enough or have enough markup in them, regardless of the merit of discussion they might incite.

DeathBurstAug 24, 20181 votes

True objectivity doesn't really exist. We're all biased. What's important is being aware of that and recognize the influence of those biases.

The frustration topic, for instance. A kit being frustrating is entirely subjective, but it's still an extremely important topic to discuss. When Zed or Yasuo are at 46% winrate (so, "objectively" weak) and are still at 50+% banrate, there must be a "subjective" reason for such a high banrate, and this is most likely frustration or some other similar feeling.

The solution to that is not to tell to the whole player base "Y'all are dumb and stupid, you're not critical thinkers. Stop banning Zed and Yasuo, they are WEAK!!!". Because 1/ it won't work, 2/ these people don't ban Zed and Yasuo because they think those champs are OP anyway. They ban those champs because they don't enjoy playing against them. They don't try to maximize their chances of winning, they try to maximize their fun. And again, that's a subjective choice, deciding that fun is more important than winning. But it's not because it's subjective that it's wrong.

So yes, it's important to discuss why and how champs are frustrating, and maybe throw a couple ideas about how we could change that. Because it means better games for everyone. And yes, a thread on Gameplay+ with detailed arguments about WHY windwall or too much mobility are annoying can be useful, and won't boil down to "Riot suck". Even if it's only subjective experience.

And the worse in all of that is that while you harp about "objectivity and critical thinking", you think you're being objective yourself, but the truth is that you're simply not aware of your own biases.

DearPearAug 22, 20181 votes

Frustration is part of what a specific gameplay can make a player feel, I don't see why it would be an issue to discuss this. What's problematic is when there is no room for discussion or when real unpopular opinions get shit on even if well constructed, informed and polite. Gameplay+ tries to have a gameplay discussion space that is free of all that.