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Upcoming Nidalee Gameplay Update

RiotRiotRepertoir··69 votes·131,863 views

Hey guys,

As you may or may not be aware of to this point, we’ve been pretty hard at work trying to address some problems we’ve identified with Nidalee’s gameplay.

Nidalee’s current pattern of nuking from very long range and being uncatchable is problematic for the game. It creates scenarios where there is no reasonable strategy that can be used to beat her, and it edges out most of the interactive gameplay we try to encourage. While working on her, we definitely want to make significant balance changes to Javelin Toss and her overall escapability, but we also want to make a more complete shapeshifting character that uses both forms in most of its success cases. That being said, Nidalee is a pretty cool character, and we don’t want to necessarily rebuild her from the ground up. In light of this, none of her abilities will be replaced by completely new ones, but playing as and against her will definitely be a different experience.

Before we get too far into this, please understand that we are still making minor tweaks and balance changes and that some of this (particularly the numbers part of it) is still SUBJECT TO CHANGE!!! With that out of that way…

Probably the two biggest changes to the character are her Cougar kit and her character passive. Aspect of the Cougar will now have 4 ranks and automatically be trained at level 1, and its Pounce and Swipe abilities will direct toward the player’s cursor. As for her passive, it reads close to the following:

Moving through brush increases Nidalee’s Movement Speed by 10% for 2 seconds, increased to X% toward visible enemy champions in a large radius. Hitting enemy champions with Javelin Toss and Bushwhack causes her to Hunt these targets for 3 seconds, granting Prowl’s increased Movement Speed toward them and enhancing the first of each of her Cougar abilities against them.

This naturally leads to a few questions:

  • How big is X%?

  • This is a balance decision that will continue to be sorted out up to her release, but we want there to be a very meaningful difference between pursuing and fleeing as Nidalee.

  • How large is “a large radius” actually going to be in game?

  • Since this is another variable that is still open to balance tuning, we’re not settled on a final value, but we’d like it to give her interesting ways to approach fights.

  • And most interestingly, how are her Cougar abilities enhanced?

  • Takedown: using Takedown on a Hunted target causes it to deal increased damage to the target.

  • Pounce: can be used to jump to Hunted enemies at about double its normal range.

  • Swipe: using Swipe on a Hunted target resets Pounce’s cooldown to a set value if it is currently above that value.

  • Aspect of the Cougar: as a Cougar, Nidalee gains vision of all Hunted enemies.

In addition to these changes, there are numbers changes across the kit. Significant examples include, but may not be limited to:

  • Javelin Toss:
  • Base damage and Ability Power ratio reduced
  • Cooldown scales down with rank in Aspect of the Cougar (R)
  • Applies the Hunt debuff to enemy champions
  • Bushwhack:
  • Cooldown and Mana Cost reduced dramatically
  • Ground lifetime reduced significantly from 4 minutes (still pending final numbers)
  • No longer shreds Armor and Magic Resist
  • Applies the Hunt debuff to enemy champions, and deals the trap’s damage over its duration
  • Now only affects 1 target per trap
  • Vision duration reduced
  • Primal Surge
  • Base healing and Ability Power ratio adjusted
  • Aspect of the Cougar
  • Now has 4 ranks and is trained with a point at level 1
  • No longer passively grants 20 Movement Speed
  • Cooldown scales down with rank
  • Cougar ability base damages and scalings adjusted across the board
  • Takedown
  • Now fully deals magic damage and has an Ability Power ratio in addition to its Attack Damage ratio and missing Health scaling
  • Deals increased damage to Hunted targets
  • Pounce
  • Now targets toward the player’s cursor
  • Can be used to Pounce to targets at increased range
  • Cooldown increased
  • Killing a unit resets Pounce’s cooldown to a set value if it is currently above that value
  • Swipe
  • Now targets toward the player’s cursor
  • Swiping a Hunted target resets Pounce’s cooldown to a set value if it is currently above that value

Follow-up:

About Ruining AD/Bruiser Nidalee...

A lot of people seem to be concerned about AD or bruiser Nidalee no longer being possible. I think it's because of Takedown dealing magic damage and having an Ability Power ratio. I should mention that the Ability Power ratio is in addition to the current Base+TotalAD damage paradigm. If the concern is just about dealing full magic damage and that will ruin her in top lane, then that's something I'll want to give consideration to. The original post above has been edited to reflect that this ability, outside of switching damage types, is only seeing gains.

About Pounce and Swipe targeting...

Truthfully - and as a Nidalee player myself - I held off on changing her cougar targeting for a long time as we began to explore the character. However, when I finally did, it felt better not only to new Nidalee players, but to experienced ones as well. It took a game or two to adjust to, and ever since it's just much easier to control. I guess it's one of those things that you'll just need to take my word for until you get your hands on it, but I'm pretty sure you'll agree at that time, even if it takes a game or two to adjust to. Also, there's some scripting logic in there so that she still pounces straight forward when your cursor is far from her (for example, Pouncing back to lane).

About Nidalee being too squishy to ever go into melee...

If it ultimately proves true that she just dies too much, this is a problem that we can solve. We could give her resists in Cougar, or while Hunting, or just higher base stats. We could give her high base damages so that she can afford to build a bit tankier. Being too squishy to be a melee character is solvable.

To clarify on the Cougar bonuses against Hunted targets...

The first of all three abilities is enhanced for each Hunt application on an enemy champion. So... the first Takedown, the first Pounce, and the first Swipe all are enhanced. An enemy will have to be hit by another Javelin Toss or run over another Bushwhack trap to get these bonuses against them again.

A simple, typical Hunt engagement will start with a Javelin Toss or Bushwhack hit on a champion. If Nidalee chooses, she will approach the target with her increased Movement Speed. If she gets within 700 range (Jax Leap Strike range, for comparison), she can use her enhanced Pounce to jump to their location. She will then use her enhanced Swipe to lower her Pounce cooldown, and her Takedown to deal its enhanced damage. At this point, she has used all of her enhanced cougar abilities against this target, and she'll need to reapply the Hunt via Javelin Toss or Bushwhack if she wants to Hunt them again.

About how the increased Pounce range actually works...

The closest comparison for how to actually activate this is Urgot's E+Q. When Nidalee Hunts an enemy, she is given some UI elements (like Yasuo when Q3 is ready) to let her know the range of her increased Pounce. If she hovers her cursor over a Hunted enemy within that range and tries to Pounce, she will jump to their location at that time (like Jax's Leap Strike, not Lee Sin's Resonating Strike which moves to unit).

To address her being unable to ever fight tanky champs without a shred on Bushwhack...

We're currently testing some changes to the way that Bushwhack deals damage that splits its damage between a small base and a percent of the target's current Health. This should help to chew through a bit more of the Health bar on tanky guys that tend to have a bit more Health without just getting rid of their resists entirely. The implementation here isn't final though, so we may come up with a better solution by PBE or Release.

About the hitbox of Javelin Toss...

We're looking at ways to make Javelin Toss as representative of the particle effect as possible. There are currently a few technical limitations to doing so that Javelin Toss shares with most other missiles in the game, but there is also one small but important thing we're testing right now to make it feel more fair. On Live, Javelin Toss actually visually gains some height as it travels. If you want to check it out, fire a Javelin Toss perfectly horizontally and notice that it slowly increases in height over its distance. The reason this was done is to make it play nicer when it immediately crosses terrain height differences, but I also think it's what leads to those occasions where you see a Javelin Toss that is fired diagonally hit things it shouldn't. Surprisingly, I've received the most positive feedback testing a Javelin Toss that actually approaches the ground slightly as it travels, and that's the version we're still testing today. It may not be perfect just yet, but we'll continue to look at it!

For Nidalee players worried about me gutting Nidalee...

I hear you on this concern. I mained Nidalee all of last season as well, and she's still one of my favorite champions. I know we haven't hit the balance mark on our last few champion updates on release, but I think we've learned enough from them to not make that mistake again. One of the great things about making these changes is that we can tune things to where they can feel satisfying and powerful in ways that are reasonable, with her engaging in proper risks and having incredible success cases. I'm really open to feedback that is well thought out and explained, because it's important to me that she's a blast to play following any changes made, so keep it coming! :)

857 Comments

TooSeussFourYou129 votes

How about you change Nidalee's Javlin Toss to be an execution so that it does increased damage the lower the enemies' HP is?

That would let Nidalee spears feel impactful without gutting the skill's AP ratios and Base Damages. Turning the spear into a finisher removes the "lucky shot" aspect and encourages Nid to spend more time running in and out of the fight, it makes her feel more like a hunter going after wounded prey.

It even fits in with the current kit, she stabs them once with a Q, goes in for a skirmish while hunting them, and then while they limp away Nid uses her enhanced W into changing back into human in order to land the killing Spear.

Otherwise you have the same problem you did before unless the ratio on nidalee's Q is gutted into the ground.

Hashii50 votes

I feel this defeats the purpose of these changes. One of the LARGEST issues in her kit is the power of her Spear. Your idea essentially makes her do the exact same thing, just making it scale harder.

Vast Warder51 votes

Oh man... on the one hand I have to say, this new kit sounds really fun to play!

But on the other hand I'm worried if the new Nidalee will have a unique niche and unique reason to be picked over other champions anymore...

  1. Her Javelin is an incredibly unreliable skillshot, so it might not be worth it anymore compared to champions like Ziggs and Xerath if it's damage is too low.

  2. Her Trap, although granting higher zoning power through lower CD, is an unreliable spell and without the Shred - if the Mana-cost isn't really really low - I just can't see it's use.

  3. Nidalee is extremely squishy and lacks CC. She might simply be outclassed by other assassins/fighters because no other assassin relies so hard on such unreliable spells.

  4. 3 seconds for "Hunt" sounds pretty low considering that a perfect spear travelled 1500 units in distance.

Questions:

  1. Does Takedown still have an AD ratio?

  2. Is her Hunt-Pounce somehow targeted (like Rengar's leap e.g.), or does it automatically increase it's range if you're jumping towards your target? In second case, what happens if you jump towards a target that is near to you?

Not everyone hates you Rioters... have a nice week and keep up the good work!

Pencillum28 votes

This is a welcome change; I think I will still enjoy Nidalee just as much, if not more, and at the same time I won't feel as broken.

However, why did you decide to destroy AD bruiser Nidalee? (Why don't you just change cougar Q to bonus AD scaling physical damage plus AP scaling magic damage? Doesn't seem too different and keeps AD Nidalee viable?)

Additionally, I hope there will still be an incentive to hit max range Nid spears, with the damage nerf? I mean obviously it can't be as broken as it is now... but you have to have some sort of reward for landing that?

Also with the E heal nerf I think you could afford to add AP scaling to the attack speed buff? Makes it more of an in-combat skill?

gamei11 votes

I agree with most of your post, particularly the section on removing AD Nidalee - that seems entirely unnecessary and continues the trend of forcing champions to be played in officially sanctioned/designed ways. (Sometimes I miss the Riot that designed tanky AP bruiser Gragas but was pleasantly surprised when he could also be played as an AP burst mage, but I digress.)

But why do you think Nidalee needs a reward for landing a long range skill shot that is beyond the damage of the skillshot itself? Ezreal doesn't get a magic bonus for landing a max range Q or R. Lux doesn't get rewarded with more damage for hitting someone at max range with any of her abilities. Why does Nidalee deserve such a unique mechanic?

Outside of Nidalee, the only skillshots (that immediately come to mind - there are a lot of champions these days...) that reward people with bonus damage for better targeting are ground based AoEs like Ziggs' R or Pantheon's R. We only feel like she must "have some sort of reward" because that's how her kit has worked all this time. If the base damage (with scaling) is sufficient, then it can be a super long range nuke without punishing people for retreating from her while still remaining powerful.

yksi3 votes

implying ad nidalee was ever viable in the first place

KazeNekochan20 votes

She was extremly viable so i dont know what youre talking about

BunnyDreamin19 votes

If her traps only affect one target per trap it should not affect minions anymore (just like Caitly trap)

Nid16 votes

I feel like I need a name change.... :(

mitcherrman15 votes

please don't kill ad nidalee.

Matzoballz15 votes

RIP NIDALEE T_T u were one of the champions that I "mained" and u were a fun champion. I really enjoyed playing you, even after the previous nerfs to cougar form armor/mr and heal, and various other nerfs. It's really sad to see a viable mid laner champ go like gragas, and I wish you the best.

Fellurian14 votes

I would like to respond to "there is no reasonable strategy that can be used to beat her, and it edges out most of the interactive gameplay we try to encourage."

I think that, as a Nidalee player, you need to be able to escape because you're so squishy you die relatively fast. If I lane against a Zed or Diana in the midlane, I better take exhaust 'cause they can catch me anyway.

There are a huge amount of strategies vs. a Nidalee. Nidalee is good at poking, but she can't push lanes that well pre lvl 6. A good Ziggs can easily push me into my turret and make sure I can't farm or roam properly.

Which brings me to the next point. Interactive gameplay? There is no other champion but Nidalee with which I roam so much. I interact with my team more, try to gank their lanes and help my team out. I can't do that as quickly with Ziggs, and I can't be as productive if I need to go out and throw a bomb from afar, while with Nidalee I can go closer, heal my teammates, let them escape by distracting the enemy and pounce away through some brushes.

Now, when playing against Nidalee, I have to admit it can be a pain in the ass. But only against a very, very good Nidalee. There's no way Nidalee can do something good, if her team is doing bad (and she doesn't get kills or assits) or if her lane is properly pushed. If she gets too strong, all you need is a Banshee's and a tank that jumps on her to kill her. I've won games with and against Nidalee, and to be honest, in the end it's all about the teamwork and syngery with your team if Nidalee works, or if you want to beat her, like it is against every champion.

Either way, some of the changes seem good, some certainly don't. The use of bushwack seems stupid now, except for the use of the passive. It doesn't give your enemies armor or magic resist reduction anymore, neither does it provide proper vision (not that it gives proper vision now) except for a 2mm wide circle on the map, and it doesn't affect more than one champion/target anymore.

Bushwack was the difference between a good, and an excellent Nidalee player as they knew how to use it in lane and make sure to poke their enemies properly or push a lane back faster.

I think people have started seeing the "bad" things about Nidalee because of pro matches, but truth is, out of all other league players, probably only 5% knows how to play a proper, unkillable, uncatchable Nidalee.

That being said, I don't like the changes, as I prefer Nidalee how she is now, but I will have to live with it 'cause after all she will still be my favourite champ, and I will learn to play her to perfection, with or without changes.

RiotRiotRepertoir8 votes

There is no other champion but Nidalee with which I roam so much.

This is something I really like about Nidalee as well. I hope that the radius at which she gains increased Movement Speed toward visible targets is large enough that she can use it to roam thoughtfully and effectively. We are currently testing a radius that allows for this, and I'm pretty happy with its roaming effectiveness at the moment.

pwatts13 votes

Takedown Now fully deals magic damage and has an Ability Power ratio

RITO YOU SAID YOU WOULDN'T GET RID OF BRUISER NIDALEE. WHY DID YOU LIE TO ME? WHY!!?!?!??!?!?! BRUISER NID IS IN MY HEART 4EVER PLEASE DON'T RIP MY HEART OUT!

But seriously AD Nidalee has been my favorite thing to play since s2 please do not remove this unique and fun way to play her.

AhhShucks13 votes

Ok, I don't get it. Am I going to build her bruiser now? Are you going to put armor and MR back on cougar form?

Nidalee's spear and traps and heal are not going to be as good, which means in order to be meaningful I have to pounce in with Cougar form. This works fine 1v1, its what you do on her right now in a 1v1. She doesn't avoid teamfights in cougar for because the abilies are bad or don't do damage. She avoids it because no matter how much damage they do, she is going immediately die at that range with an AP build.

Making cougar form work is not a matter of putting damage incentives into cougar to force you into it. Cougar needs to have tools that allow you to survive in Melee range, otherwise she is just some squishy mage running linearly and obviously into the middle of a fight screaming "STUN AND KILL ME NOW"

People are comparing this to playing Fizz late game, except Fizz works because he goes in with a CC and has troll-pole to avoid damage after that. Nidalee has none of this. Unless they make the damage in Cougar just completely crazy overpowered all this change is going to do is make her worse at just about everything, except maybe picking up a solo squishy walking through the jungle, and laning; which might be about the same.

If the idea was just "nerf nidalee" I guess you guys hit the nail on the head. If the idea was to re-arrange her power to make her less frustrating to play against, then your just nerfing the hell out of her instead.

Jingerbeardman12 votes

glad to see bushwhack get changed but it still needs to be taken further. with the removal of the armor and mr shred it will be the only trap that doesn't have a discernible tactical advantage for a team. She gains an advantage but her teammates no longer see a benefit.

My recommendation is to add a slow to it. Nothing major in fact if anything rather minor like 15% at all ranks. The trap itself looks like it would cripple a leg if stepped in. This would drastically boost her viability as a support since her largest drawback is her lack of crowd control. Even something as little as 15% can mean the difference between a successful gank or a safe getaway.

edit: I suppose I forgot it grants vision but so do all the other current traps to some extent so it isn't very unique.

KazeNekochan11 votes

So you guys are getting rid of brusier nidalee for real? Why cant you make them both work?

Snide19 votes

I agree. I LOVE nidalee. Like LOVE. She's my favorite champion (dont hate, i think she takes skill to play). However, I understand something "must" be done because people hate her OP ranges damage. I have an opinion, though, and Ill only say this once: If you land the max spear, the damage is deserved.

Like, you hit the max end of a SKILL shot. You have SKILL to land it, timing too. Am I right? My friends know me by my spear accuracy. I don't want the community to be so misled to think that it takes no skill to land it (especially between minions) so the damage reward should STAY. Yet, I did feel a nerf coming, as biased as I am. She can snowball REALLY hard with just an early deathcap.

Im no game innovator, by any means, but all I'm saying is that I'll deeply miss her versatility i.e. bruiser nid, hybrid nid etc. Please don't eliminate this aspect, it makes this game amazing to be able to craft your own item builds and utilize them situationally. The only thing I'll agree with is that nid has like one build path now: straight ap. I do like my lichbane on her but in this meta its not as effective as a ton of AP from ZHONYA and DC.

Please, riot, I just want nid to remain a top pick. She's my best champ, even if i abuse the fact that shes op but at least her op powers only come with the users ability to LAND the spears. You know what I mean? It's not like old feral flare xin who just has to Q and auto you to death (thank god that item has been nerfed).

Tl:dr nid is only op because skilled players make her op. Please reward skillful players landing spears, like thin out the hitbox or something. I think the damage is deserved. Also, dont get rid of bruiser nid either. This was like a vent/input on the changes, take them as you will. I'll miss old nidalee if her spears dont impact a game. Thanks.Nidalee {{summoner:2}}

X3 l Mega11 votes

For some reason I don't like this " Aspect of the Cougar: No longer passively grants 20 Movement Speed" She's Cougar shes suppose to be summoner 6 fast! {{summoner:10}} :( Nidalee

ComeDumpsterr11 votes

RIP in Piece Nidalee :'''''(( ... I am going to quit playing after these reworks take place, thats how much you mean to me BB... ILY4EVR!!!

Completely disrespectful to the individuals able to make an actual impact with their spears.

With a 50% overall win rate, Nidalee is pretty much right in the middle of the pack, hence her lack of OPness...

YOU HAVE TO BE VERY SKILLED TO LAND CONSISTENT SPEARS!!! YOU CANT JUST PICK NIDA AND WIN!!!! NERF HER HEAL IF YOU WANT TO NERF SOMETHING ABOUT HER!!!!

Its unfortunate people ignore this concept, while mindless champs like Xin and Yi reign supreme.

ggambino10 votes

Can you elaborate as to why some of the changes are being made? Most particularly the magic damage changes to Takedown and the overall nerf of all of her human form abilities in every one of their incarnations. A whole ton of power was removed from W and E and what we got in return was an AP bruiser who is going to struggle with no lifesteal and AD scaling and weaker base damage.

Please explain the thoughts behind all of those changes.

.... Its not even like she has ad scaling to take advantage of E attack speed as a bruiser. It seems so completely foreign to me. :(

RiotRiotRepertoir22 votes

The goal with changing Takedown to magic damage was to unify her damage type, making her feel better about penetration for all of her abilities, and making it so that opponenents don't feel like there's no right answer for itemizing defensively against her.

Bushwhack and Primal Surge are an important part of her kit, and I totally get that. It's definitely not my intention to put them in a place where she's going to struggle in human form. If anything, her two forms should now complement each other a bit better now regardless of build.

KazeNekochan18 votes

But it removes ad nid from the game when ap wad the problem not ad its not right at all

Manchette18 votes

Take a step back, friend. This may harm AD Nidalee, however it also changes the way AP Nidalee is played. If she retained the split damage, remaining in close combat with an opponent would be less effective. With the changes, players are now encouraged to engage enemies in close combat instead of chucking spears all day - which was the original problem.

Instead of tunneling in on a singular issue please try to look at the bigger picture of the change, not just AD vs. AP.

KazeNekochan3 votes

I dont care about ap nidalee that is not the way i like to play theres mo reason they couldnt rework her and give the option of going ad or ap

Manchette18 votes

Not caring about an issue does not make it go away - and the issue that you don't care about is the one which needs fixing. I am confident that bruiser Nidalee with continue to be viable. You just won't have as much AA damage is all.

KazeNekochan3 votes

I care for ad nid and i kmow ap wsd the problem so why are they not just getting rid of ap instead if ad?

Manchette11 votes

Perhaps Riot thinks Nidalee is supposed to be a mage bruiser/carry hybrid? I don't pretend to know their intentions, but I do know that the changes are made in good faith.

gamei34 votes

Let me just remind you that hybrid pen is in the game, presumably for cases such as Nidalee where a champion can benefit from both penetration stats. Even though I haven't played AD Nid in months and months, count me amongst the crowd that is puzzled by this random change in an otherwise welcome rework.

Every time something like this happens in a champion "update" (Yi being a recent, relevant, and obvious example,) we are told that it's not an attempt to remove player choice and innovation from the game but instead given a bunch of meaningless pseudo-intellectual verbiage about game health. Have you seen Shyvana's "damage type"? Malphite? Jax? Even Fizz! While you're digging around in the files, surely it wouldn't be too hard to "unify (their) damage type(s)."

If you only want people playing a champion in one way, that's fine. It is Riot's game to design as they please. But if it's easier to balance her numbers if she's only AP, or you can make more informed design decisions about her kit if you can assume she's in mid or approximate her major item builds, etc. and etc, just say that instead. Whatever the reason is! But in a game full of mixed damage types, claiming it's in the name of unity seems like a paper-thin reason and much more of a BS excuse. :\ If I'm completely off-base and you feel like 'I want to unify her damage type' is a good enough reason to stifle player choice and varied play styles by making this change, I urge you to reconsider. Mixed damage is not inherently unhealthy for the game. Variety in builds and role is not inherently unhealthy for the game.

My only other conclusion is that there is a Riot-wide design decision being pounded to the designers to remove ALL mixed damage from the game. If that's the case, I completely understand why you don't want to say that - people would be angry!

JimmynatorB8 votes

This is why it's a good thing to release some early reworked kits instead of releasing a rework and making people mad (Skarner). This way you can gather some feedback from the community about the gameplay changes.

I think you should reconsider the whole "damage unification" thing. Magical and physical were not supposed to be two different damage types for whole champions. Magic damage was supposed to be dealt by magical abilities, and physical damage was meant for attacks and abilities that didn't involve magic, even though there are many exceptions to this rule, like Ezreal's Q. However I must say those exceptions felt really weird when I first learned those champions, as the obvious choice (Ez,'s Q being magic damage), didn't apply.

As such, Nidalee's Q should remain physical damage, and her swipe and pounce sould be changed to physical damage too instead of leaving all those abilities to deal magic damage, which makes little to no sense on a cougar (Note that I'm not talking about AD or AP scalings, I'm talking about the damage type). At least her human form magic damage is understandable (even though it would make more sense for it to be physical too), but when I first picked nidalee and used her cougar abilities it was very strange to me that her W and E were magic damage, considering she was using her claws to attack.

Also, the penetration problem exists not because there are no ad-mpen nor ap-arpen items, but because penetration is a MUST in every damage champion, wich is a design flaw you should look into. It shouldn't be a must, it should be a choice between being able to kill tanks or squishy targets, penetration giving you the first one, and AD and AP the second.

Apologies for any improper use of english, it's not my first language.

Norak10 votes

High Diamond 1 (chall level imo) Nidalee main here. My thoughts:

Passive: It seems like a mouthful to be honest. Both Nidalee players and enemies will be overloaded with that much in a passive. I like the idea of hunting, but does it really have to only affect the first ability? If you're hunting them I would expect that it's a consistent thing, a hunt continues until the prey is hunted down.

Javelin Toss: If you're going to reduce it's AP Ratio and damage, give some incentive, or nice mechanic to make up for it. Execute? It would match her cougar form Q, so it's intuitive. Remove the minimum range (based on her AA range) from her Q? At the moment medium range spears are extremly underwhelming. It doesn't punish nid for letting enemies get close range, it punishes her for landing an extremely slow skillshot at 700~ range. Otherwise you're nerfing her Q into oblivion with the damage and CD changes.

Bushwack: The removal of MR/Armor shred and multiple target trapping is absolutely huge. Damage of the traps should be increased to compensate. At the moment Nidalee's laning stage is extremely hard with her Q damage nerfs (spears don't ramp up until after her AA range), her backup method for farming against good opponents is to trap minions, this is killed with the changes. The shred also hurts her ability to trade, her utility in general and her spears late game (a lot).

Primal Surge: I feel like changing both the base AND the AP ratio is going to make this extremely underwhelming. What you should do instead is nerf the AP ratio slightly, leave the base (or buff) and make the cooldown higher at lower levels and scale down to it's current CD. At the moment bad Nidalee's are trading terribly and just healing up constantly, and lategame her heal is just really strong. Address these issues instead of just blanket nerfing the ability.

Cougar: Level 1 cougar seems interesting to say the least. Assuming it works like current Nid where you can't use Q W or E until you've levelled them. This means W first Nid is probably going to be dominant (at the moment Q first nid is better for level 1 trading if you can land spears, E first is better against opponents who you can auto trade with). After these changes W will be dominant, just cougar form, pounce to lane, trap everything up and farm. Boring.

Loss of 20 movement speed is really big, this hurts Nidalee's roaming substantially. Do you want her to just become a farm bot in lane? I thought teamwork was promoted. From the way you've worded her abilities, her W has a really long cooldown now and is reduced when you land E (cougar) to it's normal cooldown. So I imagine Nidalee's roaming is essentially dead at this point.

Base damages and ratio's being "adjusted" scares me a little. You're shifting a lot of power into her cougar form, are you nerfing it substantially to make up for that fact? Does that seem logical?

I like the W and E cougar form change, where they go towards your mouse cursor. Though it does take some skill ceiling from Nidalee away, Cougar form was the hardest part about Nidalee. But catering to the people who don't main her is probably a smart idea to make her easier to pick up.

TL;DR: Nidalee Human Q needs to have more incentive/rewards for being hit most likely. Execute or removing the minimum distance are best contenders. Primal surge's early CD should be hurt instead of it's base heal amount. Cougar loses it's roaming strength, pushing nid into a sit-in-lane-and-farm champ, promotes selfish plays instead of teamwork.

Sonimus8 votes

For me, and I'm sure for many others, I concerned for the situation bruiser Nidalee will be thrown into whilst these changes are being tested and implemented. Please keep this aspect of Nidalee in mind when you guys continue to work on her, thank you :)

YippotheClown7 votes

[Part 1]

Dear Mr. Repertoir,

My thoughts as long time LoL and Nidalee player:

  • It cannot be denied by anyone that Nidalee's kit is toxic. I find her fun to play, but I'm aware that she is immensely frustrating to play against. I therefore agree that changes need to be made. However...

  • The current strategy by the Company regarding champion reworks is becoming a problem. The solution to a champion not being universally loved is not to force a new playstyle onto the people who love that champion. This was done with other reworks, such as the Ahri rework and was a part of the proposed Lee Sin rework. It is both disturbing and insulting to effectively be told that the playstyle you love as a player is 'wrong', and is symptomatic of an overall tendency by the Company in recent times of attempting to 'define the way the game is played' where previously this was something the Company tried very hard to avoid.

  • As such, I am not able to support the above rework in its implementation, although I agree with both its necessity and loosely the thematic basis of the changes.

  • I therefore propose the following:

Javelin Toss : This is currently one of the most satisfying skillshots in the game to land. It is one of the reasons people pick Nidalee up, and it is integral to skilled Nidalee play. However, the above rework would completely change the focus of playstyle around Javelin Toss, effectively undermining what I (and, I would venture, a lot of players) love about the champion.

I would postulate two factors around Javelin Toss.

  1. Javelin Toss, mechanically, is close to perfect as far as gameplay is concerned. It is a slow-moving, small-hitbox projectile which makes it easy to dodge unless aimed well. It also has a reward which scales up with the difficulty of the shot, i.e. with the distance thrown at. This is significantly less toxic than, for example, Jayce's gated Shock Blast, which is both harder to dodge and has an Area Effect component.
  2. Javelin Toss is toxic on live. This is primarily because after a certain point in the game it simply no longer matters how many spears you dodge - you might dodge fifteen in a row, but the sixteenth will drop you to a sliver of health and force you away. Nidalee players on live are not punished for failing to hit spears.

Rather than the proposed rework methodology which, as I say, would significantly negatively impact the current Nidalee playstyle, I propose one or both of the following:

  • Significantly increase the cooldown and/or mana cost of Javelin Toss to punish poor spear accuracy more significantly. This could be as high as a 200% increase in cooldown, or even 300% with a cooldown reduction if an enemy is hit.

  • Modify Javelin Toss along the lines of Xerath's new Q, i.e. allow it to charge and thus increase the range of the skillshot from auto-attack range to the current live maximum. This would, of course, increase the damage of the resultant hit in line with live values. If the spell's cooldown began on spear throw, this would also increase the effective cooldown of long-range spears.

Either or both of these changes would allow the current Nidalee playstyle to survive without forcing players into an unwanted and unwarranted, arbitrary change.

YippotheClown3 votes

[Part 2]

Bushwhack : I agree with the removal of the Area Effect component on this spell on the basis that Cougar will be available from level 1. The Area Effect component is effectively just a band-aid solution to help minor counter-pushing pre-6, and has no real place in the kit thematically.

However, the proposed decrease in cooldown and mana cost will have the opposite effect to that intended, i.e. increase the champion's toxicity. A significant decrease in spell cooldown corresponds to a significant increase in number of traps present on the map - and these traps cannot be swept away with an Oracle's lens or other sweeping item. Meanwhile, damage and vision remain unchanged. What you are effectively creating is a champion with the ability to create a Teemo-esque carpet of damage with no counterplay other than 'don't walk into that area'.

I would instead propose that the Magic Resistance shred on the spell remain intact, whilst the Armour shred is removed due to obsolecence. The vision granted should also be significantly reduced, and the cooldown may also be increased. This would reduce the toxic element of the spell whilst still allowing good Nidalee players to control certain areas of the map. Furthermore, retaining the MR-shred element alongside the new Takedown changes further allows Nidalee to 'lay traps' in unwarded brushes by using a trap to reduce resistances prior to an all-in attack.

Primal Surge : I entirely agree with a nerf to this spell, particularly in its late game potency. Nidalee has no business having such an effective heal, particularly given the associated attack speed buff. However, I would urge caution that the spell's base healing remains unchanged at early ranks to avoid making Nidalee significantly weaker than she already is against high-pressure laners, particularly given her increased reliance on Cougar form.

Passive (Prowl) : I agree that the current passive is unnecessary mobility and should be removed. In its place, I further agree that increased resistances in Cougar form would be a good way of further promoting the availability of a close-ranged playstyle.

Cougar form : Takedown : I agree with the proposed changes shifting Takedown's damage to magical. There is no thematic reason for the damage of Cougar's spells to be split. Either physical or magical, not both.

Cougar form : Pounce : Pounce is the secondary reason for Nidalee's current toxicity, as you correctly state. As such, I would support a cooldown nerf to Pounce. However, as I disagree entirely with the proposed 'Hunt' mechanic, I would instead suggest that Pounce's cooldown be increased at all ranks, with a reduction in cooldown if Nidalee causes damage with any Cougar form ability to a champion within 2 seconds (allowing Nidalee to continue to use Cougar to reposition without having to go completely suicidally deep). This reduction should leave Pounce's cooldown at live values if used to attack a champion.

Cougar form : Swipe : As above, I disagree with the 'Hunt' mechanic, and the further mechanical change is supported by the above.

Cougar form : Pounce/Swipe targeting : I have no issue with this. Whatever players find more intuitive, particularly newer players. Your data is no doubt much stronger than mine in this area.

Hunt : To reiterate, the proposed Hunt mechanic would arbitrarily alter Nidalee's playstyle in such a way as to remove all that current Nidalee players enjoy about the champion. This is not necessary when the kit can be fixed with the above to retain the current playstyle whilst making it significantly less toxic to play against. The goal of any rework of this nature is to increase the enjoyment of Nidalee's opponents (including appropriate counterplay) whilst not decreasing the enjoyment of Nidalee's player. Without meaning any offence, I believe the above does this significantly better than your proposal.

Yours,

Yippo the Clown.

P.S. I am well aware that due to this post's length you will doubtless never actually read it. Nonetheless, optimism is a virtue.

RiotRiotRepertoir5 votes

Hi again Yippo,

For Bushwhack, there is some stuff in testing that I didn't mention about Bushwhack in the original post for fear of creating too huge a wall of text (too late for that now!), but I've now added them in. The first is that the ground duration of Nidalee traps has been cut to about half with the changes in cooldown, and they currently deal a percentage of the victim's current Health per tick so that she can fight tankier guys a bit better, without them just losing all their resists. Additionally, the vision duration has also been cut to just the Hunt duration. These changes are to address the frustration behind potential trap minefields and what not.

As for Primal Surge, I used the word adjusted because I don't want to straight up nerf it in all cases, and I actually feel pretty similarly to you about bases and ratios. We're currently testing a base heal that is slightly increased at max ranks, and an AP ratio that is reduced.

Again, I probably can't sell you on the Hunt mechanic without you having played it, but your feedback is heard and taken into consideration.

Thanks for the input!

RiotRiotRepertoir8 votes

Hi Yippo, thanks for sharing your concerns.

While this does represent some playstyle changes to Nidalee, there's nothing that ultimately forces players into using the new tools. AP Nidalee players will still be able to sit back and throw spears on cooldown from a largely safe range, it just won't be as effective anymore. The combination of incredible damage and incredible safety is what makes them unacceptable, regardless of the cost. When it came to how to deal with Javelin Toss, I didn't want to just nerf the ability to the point that Nidalee was just dead, which was very much an option. Instead, with the changes I also wanted to give Nidalee players full access to their kits so it wasn't just a case of gutting Javelin Toss and moving on. Javelin Toss is an iconic ability that I think is pretty cool; it's just that its reward for the amount of risk she incurs is way out of line. With these changes, to receive the maximum reward per Javelin Toss, she has to make a decision about whether to incur some risk.

Thank you for your feedback. I sincerely hope you like the finished product.

myflow5 votes

Can someone elaborate on the mechanics of Hunt? Specifically her enhanced Cougar abilities when Hunt is active?

...enhancing the first of each of her Cougar abilities against them.

It says that it enhances the first ability, so say that you Pounce toward an enemy champion and it travels twice the normal distance. Do you lose the enhanced ability of Takedown or Swipe?

Panda Saruu5 votes

I'm not really a fan of these changes, mostly because when i play Nidalee or go against one i don't see her as a problem. She is meant to be an assassin and should be treated as such and not need the extra things mentioned above(though i do like some of the ideas). I'd love to hear some more changes to this and hopefully it won't stay exactly like this because it would make me quite upset because you are completely changing her from being able to be a glass cannon to having to be somewhat tanky and taking away her risk. She is meant to be able to poke with spears then chase them with her cougar form. Here are some of my thoughts of this change(I know some things are subject to change im just giving some feedback is all:D)

  1. The removal of the armor shred from Bushwhack-as someone else had said in the comments, this would kind of kill the purpose of the traps along with the decrease of the time they stay and the amount of time they are revealed. Lowering cooldown and mana cost(especially mana cost) seems okay but without the shred it just isn't the same.

  2. Changes in javalin toss- This has already been changed before but i don't think it needs to be changed anymore because its main damage is from the range, if the person can even land it. I don't see a need to reduce its damage if its hard to hit for a devastating result. Doing this kind of kills incentive to try and land max range spears and kills her poke. Just as another commenter said, "if you get hit by a max range spear you deserve the damage

  3. Getting cougar form at level one as well as changing its abilities to follow the mouse- YES!!!! I love this idea(mainly the part about pounce following the mouse) but I would also like to know if there would still be a problem where you would collide with a minion and change direction. This always annoyed me so i hope it changes. :)

  4. Bonus armor/magic resist to cougar form- This was here before, wasn't it? If i remember correctly, the reason it was removed was to add more of a high risk high reward to it. Maybe in hunt it would be fine but otherwise I wouldn't care if it was added or not. I like the point of being able to build her as a ranged champion not a melee champion as you had written.

  5. Hunt- Seems like a pretty cool idea to add to her but i feel like it just wouldn't be her...you said you didn't want to change her much and in adding this it would completely change the way she is played. I don't disagree with this idea but it brings up a few concerns especially regarding what you are doing to her out of cougar form(I will comment on this a little later) and how long hunt lasts. You may want to adjust the time or it will be incredibly hard to use, especially to new players(I will look back for updates).

  6. Making cougar form her main form- There is a reason you made the cougar form her ult and not her main form. It is supposed to be a side thing not something you stay in for most of the game. I do not understand why you must put so much emphasis on the cougar form and then just gut the abilities in her human form, such as her spear's damage, the bushwhack ability and you're even going to try changing her heal.

  7. AD Nidalee- I am not personally a fan of AD Nidalee but I know many who are(looks at comments) and I agree that what you are doing is also harming AD Nidalee and believe it would be a good idea to maybe add a note about this in your next update :). Nidalee, in my eyes is meant to be able to poke and sustain then go in for the kill in cougar form, not just stay in cougar form and change out every so often to try to get the hunt ability. Please don't change my favorite champion I could barely handle when you changed her spear so that you couldn't move back for more damage :(. I am willing to accept a little change but I will hope for less change than this because I want to still be able to love Nidalee as I always have! I'm definitely watching this post for updates now because Nidalee is my favorite and I don't wish to see her change :(. Nidalee <3

MackleDoge3 votes

And just to clarify / double check, you're going to be doing some serious number testing to make sure that the changes you make don't buff her right? Because I don't think reducing Javelin Toss just to greatly increase the damage on the other portions of her kit solves the problem at all, it just makes an entirely new problem that you'll have to fix (assuming you follow up which I pray you all will). I'm just hesitant to get behind changes like

Takedown: using Takedown on a Hunted target causes it to deal increased damage to the target

Paired with

Takedown Now fully deals magic damage and has an Ability Power ratio

The base damages for Nidalee's cougar form are already high to begin with in my opinion, or are at least high enough that Nidalee doesn't need to build anything other than AP for her spears and she can still do decent to above average damage with the Cougar Form abilities. Giving Takedown even more damage when this reworked passive makes it an almost free follow up to any Javelin Toss you hit and then making it even stronger on top of the passive increase by making it with an AP Ratio seems like a dangerous over adjustment to me.

RiotRiotRepertoir10 votes

Yeah, that's certainly a valid concern, but don't forget the

Cougar ability base damages and scalings adjusted across the board

All damage changes made to abilities are being done so with consideration to her full kit, not just Javelin Toss and Takedown.

MackleDoge2 votes

Right, which is why it was more clarification and double checking than anything else. I just don't want you guys to go through the effort of working to improve the issues that Nidalee is causing just to have a different issue spring up that negates a lot of the hard work you guys put into changes.

RiotRiotRepertoir10 votes

I totally understand. I think one of the best parts about these changes to the character is that she now has to at least fight people up close. Once she's there, if she's doing too much damage or living too long, we can tune her numbers in a way that reflects that.

picflute7 votes

Do you actually understand it thou? Because what you are doing is shifting almost her whole kit from Ranged to Melee now and with the removal of Armor and Magic Resistance from most transforming champions it's asking for a kill

Omnipherious6 votes

Elise and Jayce are strong in their melee forms but still beatable. Nidalee should be no exception since she is being moved into the same territory.

EDIT: The gameplay pattern I'm seeing based on this new kit looks a lot like Elise and Jayce's pattern. You stay in range for safety and go into melee for the kill. So, it shouldn't compromise her identity as poke'em down then cougar up to claw their face off. It will hopefully be less obnoxious.

HIS0KA8 votes

Jayce has a knockback in melee and Elise has rappel, as well as cocoon in human form. These changes seem a lot like Elise v2, only less cc...

Thales1 votes

This feels very complex and mindshare heavy, especially the weird cooldown things. Questions:

  • Could you describe what you see the core gameplay pattern for her as being?
  • What do you see the role of Bruiser Nid being, or do you see that build disappearing?
RiotRiotRepertoir5 votes

Could you describe what you see the core gameplay pattern for her as being?

This kit is all about using both forms to succeed. Skillful Javelin Tosses and well placed Bushwhack traps allow her combat advantages over certain opponents. Primal Surge continues to support her role in a poke heavy composition. As a human, Nidalee wants to fish Javelin Tosses toward valuable enemy targets, and when they hit, she has a decision to make; can I go in on this? Meanwhile, she wants to think about her traps for where she'll need them 10 or more seconds in the future. If she hasn't hit a valuable squishy with Javelin Toss, she can still trap up her team's backline and help her carry deal valuable damage to enemy tanks. As a Cougar, Nidalee wants to deal damage to her ideal target, and this is usually decided by who she was able to Hunt to do so. Outside of a specific engagement, however, Nidalee uses vision and map mobility to create numbers advantages for her team, rewarded by combat advantages in her Cougar form against targets she has successfully begun the Hunt on.

What do you see the role of Bruiser Nid being, or do you see that build disappearing?

The exact item build may not be the same - for instance, Void Staff or Liandry's Torment may appear due to her dealing magic damage on Takedown - but the playstyle should remain largely unchanged.

Hadriel13 votes

That's beautiful fiction on how an ideal teamfight for Nidalee will happen, but the kit you fleshed out for us spells an inability to deal significant ranged damage and an impossibility of reaching the backline without being promptly CCd and bursted down. Melee carries need survivability in their kits -- a linear, slow, telegraphed movement skill does not contribute to that end, nor do ms steroids. I'm not saying this because I oppose the change, I don't main Nidalee, but because this script is the same pretty prose offered for Quinn's place in teamfights, who I do main, and let me tell you, that's not a complimenting comparison to make.

Nidalee will become a half functional, poor scaling mid/toplane midgame carry outclassed by less conditional, more powerful picks. Future, thy name is Quinn.

Wizend10 votes

NO..........

Her core mechanic as a bruiser was to dodge abilities with her pounce and position. Now she is using it as an initiation tool. You've completely changed the mechanic behind it so don't just say her play style is the same when it clearly isn't.

Also bruiser Nidalee NEVER bought AP items. She largely stuck to being tanky and inescapable with frozen gauntlet slow.

The mechanic that you have created was just to force Nidalee to ENGAGE after landing a spear to get her full damage and I get that, but you ruined her gameplay in roles other than AP mid because of it.

CC is king in this game and she brings none of it. I sincerely hope that this rework gets tuned properly. This rendition though I feel is gonna ruin her.

What happens when you can't hit the "valuable" target to land hunted on them because someone is sitting in the way blocking it? Why would a back line AP build Ever go into melee with no escapes? Look at how Leblanc can "in and out" and burst a target, why pick this poor excuse of a poke champ now when she has no CC and her engage feature is also her escape mechanic.

Vision control with traps is hardly a convincing feature considering they won't even shred and can't effect multiple targets anymore.

Considering she can't even wave clear safely compared to other "poke" champs we'll probably just end up seeing Karma and Ziggs take her place as annoying poke champ.

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