[GAMEPLAY] Jayce E knockback?

Mr Tim··1 votes·1,811 views

Playing in a game as Fiora vs a Jayce top lane. We get into a skirmish, and I use a dash to position myself between my tower and him, anticipating his knockback. I dash through him and the dash completes (evidence being I pop a vital on him that is positioned facing towards my tower), and he uses E hammer on me, which proceeds to knock me back to where I started. It seems to occur with other dashes as well (linking to another post by another player with video of his experience http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/bug-report/ntmkldlY-jayce-e-interaction-with-yasuo-e-patch-620

EDIT: Uploading a video of what happened to me. http://sendvid.com/0pfrq1ov

10 Comments

Puguccino1 votes

To be completely fair I think this is actually a healthy "bug" haha. Let me try and explain my reasoning, to begin we need to look at the "coding" behind the knock back, Jayce's knock back seems to initiate its animation in regards to Jayce's CURRENT directional input during the cast (to explain in simpler terms, it will always initially apply the knock back based on HIS position never the enemies if that makes sense.) I feel this is healthier because imagine an enemy Yasuo/Fiora dashing through a Jayce and out of a flury of panic Jayce hits his E. If the knockback were coded based on the enemies current positioning you would be sent flying under the enemy tower and there would be little to no counter play. The reason this bug is healthy is because it forces more critical timing and positioning from the Jayce player, very experienced Jayce players will often anticipate a Yasuo dash TURN around and E them straight into their tower! So with this being said I think you should be happy this bug exists it gives dash enemy champions a better chance to survive these diving encounters!

Please ask me anything if you need to!

Mr Tim1 votes

Sorry but your logic doesn't make very much sense... And I don't think you quite understand whats going on either so I'll draw something up and explain it that way. https://gyazo.com/b3aa30f48e25d15ed4327de16ed86a44 Lets say the green circle is the Jayce, and lets say the red circle is generic enemy champion with a dash (Yasuo/Fiora/etc). The enemy champion is going to use their dash through Jayce and end up at the position marked by the blue circle. Logically, if the Jayce player uses their E just as the enemy champion begins to pass them, they should be knocked back further than their dash, somewhere around circle "A". What actually happens is, in some weird circumstances (I think if the dash is still technically going through or something, that I'm not even sure about because in my situation I believe my dash as Fiora "completed" evidence being a vital popped as a result of my dash), instead of getting knocked back in a line starting from Green --> A, Jayce will knock the enemy champion all the way back to point "B". From the way it plays out, it looks like where the enemy champion currently IS is irrelevant to the E knockback, the only relevant information that is considered is where they started (i.e. If Jayce had cast E while enemy champion was still at the red circle (where they would've started their dash from), the knockback would apply as normal and enemy champion would get knocked back to B). I don't think there is much "counter play" that goes on in this situation, and it honestly can feel bad for both parties. In my particular situation, my 1v1 vs Jayce started where he was in between me and my tower. I must dash through him in order to reach safety. Because of this bug, instead of reaching safety, I get knocked back into danger. It didn't matter that I anticipated the knock back and reacted accordingly (and visually it looked like I made the decision on time), which makes me as the victim of this feel like the counterplay to the E was removed. I could easily see this turned into a "feel bad" situation for the Jayce player as well. Lets say I'm playing Jayce against lets say Fiora. If Fiora begins to tower dive me and tries to dash through me, and I feel that I'm strong enough to fight her under my own turret, I'm going to walk forward while she is dashing, and as soon as she is in between me and my tower, I'm going to E so that she gets flung even deeper under my tower. However, because of this situation, if I E too soon, she just gets thrown the complete opposite direction and into safety (Notice how in the diagram the distance between the blue circle and B is much greater than the normal knockback distance). This leaves me confused, because I anticipated the dash and reacted to punish them for their aggressive move (and the enemy champion can't complain of lack of counterplay if the knockback functioned as expected because they initiated the aggressive move onto Jayce, and should be aware of the knockback and position themselves accordingly). I also did a quick glance at all of the other champions with knockback abilities, and off of the top of my head I think Jayce is the only champion that this situation happens for, which leads me to believe that its some spaghetti code in Jayce's E that makes this happen. (Ex. If a Vayne were to condemn a LeBlanc who's distorting towards her, you don't see Leblanc fly back to behind where she started).

TL;DR: Hitting your knockback on a dashing champion as Jayce shouldn't be determined solely from where the enemy champion started, but should be determined from where they currently are. Currently there are scenarios that leave the E feeling broken because of it not functioning as expected, which prevents both a skilled Jayce player to have a good sense of counterplay against another champion, and a skilled enemy champion to outplay a Jayce by playing around the knockback.

Puguccino1 votes

Well, again I do understand what is going on. To prove my experience in this issue I wouldn't like to inform you that I currently hold 670,000 mastery points as jayce in the NA region (feel free to verify that), with this being said I have well more than enough games against yasuos, Fioras, poppy's... etc. I do understand what's going on, And yes I have seen similar diagrams in accordance to the jayce knockback issue. I would not like to point this out but you have reiterated most of the information I have explained. For example I understand that jayce can fling enemies back great or even unexpected distances and I do understand most of the time this knockback isn't based on the completion of a dash but rather the timing, positioning and cast time of the jayces E. I also completely understand that it can feel spaghettish when playing dash based kits because the reaction to the knockback doesn't quite feel natural. However we are observing this occurrence from a one sided perspective, let's look at different dashes for example. In Fioras case she doesn't cast her dash through enemies, but in yasuos case he does. But why then do these dashes react so Similarly? Its because this issue doesn't originate from their kits in the slightest. Whilst trying to fix this problem it isn't about whether or not these champions are treated fairly, it's if jayce can ADQUATELY fight them. Imagine for a second designing Jayces E in the manner in which it logically ought to occur? For example imagine every time a yasuo dashed through a Jayce he couldn't just tap E and send that yasuo flying under his tower. Logically speaking this would Imfuriate every dash based champion. If you as jayce player are trying to get fiora away from her tower and she just dashed through you and got extra dash range because you hit your E logically assuming it would inhibit that dash that jayce player would also be infuriated because mechanically speaking this just isn't favorable to his kit. Just because the ability doesn't have a natural and or logical effect doesn't make it unfair. However the issue about increased knockback range could be a bug, if so perhaps riot should look into this. To be completely frank jayce feels a bit clunky sometimes with his abilities and riot should definitely give him time TLC. To conclude, sometimes these abilities are coded in such a manner because they don't necessarily overfavor one party unitentioanlly, but rather just perform what that ability claims to perform.

But yeah overall I think jayce needs tons of tuning up. But then again you are a fiora player so most people find that toxic enough hahah just kidding man/woman.

Side note: I apologize for any grammatical errors in this reply I am out of home and writing on my phone but felt this conversation was interesting lol kappa.

Mr Tim1 votes

It seems as if the issue here is just clarity of the ability then (and we all know how much Riot loves to talk about clarity in the game)... Lets say for instance the E, as strange and confusing as these cases are, are functioning 100% as intended, there's no intention of changing it from Riot, and a small group in the community is aware of how it functions in these cases and how to use it to their advantage. Now lets take a player who is extremely mechanically skilled, but for some reason has never played against a Jayce in game, but knows his kit inside and out on paper. This player goes and plays against the Jayce, who then abuses this mechanic of the E. Now the new player is thinking "Wait, his E is a knockback, "x" SHOULD be happening, but instead "y" is happening instead. Why?". To this the player responds "Well yea, his E is a knockback, but it does some weird stuff...". They try to explain it, but in the end, it just boils down to "Well he's just Jayce and thats what he does". You, having a ton of experience on Jayce, obviously know how it functions, but to everyone else it just makes no sense visually. Its like they were driving in a car, got hit by another car in the side, and flew backwards instead of forwards/to the side.

And to the point of whether or not Jayce can adequately fight someone (ex a Yasuo), whats the issue if he just simply can't adequately fight someone? Assuming ideal conditions (and the E functioning in the "logical" case), Jayce simply boops Yasuo away before he gets to him... If he doesn't do it in time, he gets punished by knocking Yasuo in between himself and wherever he needs to run to. OR, he actually WANTS to knock Yasuo further behind him... In this case, you need to WAIT for the dash to "finish" per se, and THEN cast E. This situation actually gives your opponent a slight window to do something to you because you 'logically' know you should knock him back immediately, but have to wait to prevent the opposite from occurring. Currently, the E is honestly every forgiving, giving you a huge window of opportunity to just nullify enemy movement (not that that's a bad thing... Jayce E SHOULD be disrupting enemy movement, its just much more unforgiving to a skilled player who is able to position themselves behind Jayce via a dash. In that situation, the enemy player SHOULD be rewarded for their play.) Jayce, inherently, is a huge long ranged threat, and likewise should be a bit more vulnerable up in close range. Jayce is unique in that he can just switch forms to combat this weakness, giving up range for up close power (again, absolutely not a bad thing). This should allow him to go toe to toe with some beefier opponents, but imo not a slippery fighter/assassin, who should be rewarded for out maneuvering him.

I feel that it would be a much greater expression of skill and give the ability much needed clarity if it functioned in the 'logical' sense. Currently, it honestly covers up a huge weakness of his (He should be competent at peeling some somewhat sticky people off of him and getting away... He should be punished by super slippery/super sticky champions), so fixing the ability and making it 'logical' lets opponents play around that weakness, while allowing the Jayce to pull off more skillful plays. Giving a champion invisible/unclear power, just for the sake of being able to fight a certain type of champion, completely undermines the principle of clarity.

And there are far worse people in this world than Fiora players (cough Fizz cough)

Puguccino2 votes

Hell yeah it needs some clarity. Love the car analogy made me laugh. I think all points made here are super valid... just need rito to pick up on the issues COME ON RIOT WE NEED HOT FIXES.

RogueWill1 votes

Is not a bug.... Jayce knockback has a small cast time (similar to Ezreal) so the ability calculate the knockback final positing from the moment it was cast and not actually the moment then the ability hit.

Mr Tim1 votes

You might be right, but it still leaves the ability room for 'feel bad' situations for everyone involved. (Jayce: He was behind me and I should've knocked him into my tower, why did he just fly across the lane?) (Other guy: I just dashed past him, why did I just get knocked back behind him?). Either way, it just imo feels kinda inconsistent with other abilities and should probably be addressed one way or another (most logical fix: knockback applies when it actually connects).

RogueWill1 votes

Is part of the old code and remove it is not as easy as you think, ChoGath silence work similarly and i think vayne condemn as well and it was decided that it should work like that because of champions that needs that small cast (like skarner) so i doubt it will be removed/fixed anytime soon

Mr Tim1 votes

Yea it probably isn't as easy as acknowledging it today and a fix gets shipped out next patch, but I personally would appreciate a response from Riot on this (either "Ohey yea this seems broken lets fix that" or "This is functioning 100% as intended") and they actually fixed the Cho bug in 6.20 so you don't get silenced if you jump out of it, so just because its been part of the code for a long time doesn't mean they won't change it.

RogueWill1 votes

"anytime soon" it could be fixed but is on the bottom of the list since is not game breaking and changing it woudl require lots of hours pour into the code

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