Late game, if Elise gets her ult off just as a match ends and each unit is—for example—doing 4 damage and she's a 3 star, she's doing 20 damage to players. A 1-cost unit doing extra damage to players is intense and questionable already, but she does A MAXIMUM OF FIVE TIMES extra player damage. This can make you take 25+ damage late game if you get stomped in one fight just from Elise.
Z3SIeeper9 votesIt's the upside of having an Elise, since there really isn't any other upside other than being a token synergy unit.
Independent Cat8 votesIt's the upside of having an Elise, since there really isn't any other upside other than being a token synergy unit.
Her spiderlings do mana burn. Isn't that enough? Like having 1-4 extra units running around burning all of peoples' mana and doing true damage based on the mana burnt is a massive impact alone. "But you need synergy for that!" So? She's a one cost that has a massive impact with the spiderling manaburn alone once she **gets ** the synergy, which is good enough considering she, once again, IS A ONE COST. She doesn't need to do 25 damage to players single-handedly on top of that.
Janna Me Fiddle4 votesAgreed. Even I think her spiderlings having manaburn is a little too much because of how strong Demon synergy is right now, they absolutely should not count toward player damage, nor should Daisy from Elementalist.
Thefrostyviking7 votesElise is a super weak unit in pretty much all other regards though.
I mean even for a 1 star, compare her to say Garen, Darius, Tristana or kassadin.
Elise hits you hard if she ends up survivng a round with her spiders? Its a mini miracle if she actually gets that far.
Independent Cat4 votesElise is a super weak unit in pretty much all other regards though.
I mean even for a 1 star, compare her to say Garen, Darius, Tristana or kassadin.
Elise hits you hard if she ends up survivng a round with her spiders? Its a mini miracle if she actually gets that far.
I've seen more Elises in late game than Knights/Nobles/Tristana lately. Kassadin, no she doesn't compare to how good he is, but that's another thread.
She's not trash. She's a one cost unit who has a 2-4x more chance to mana burn than any other demon. Even if she was trash, having her spiderlings do 1/3 of your MAX health at the end of the turn is not the way to balance her.
Thefrostyviking3 votes[{quoted}](name=Support Probably,realm=NA,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=0JL7IMEr,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2019-07-28T17:15:15.247+0000)
I've seen more Elises in late game than Knights/Nobles/Tristana lately. Kassadin, no she doesn't compare to how good he is, but that's another thread.
She's not trash. She's a one cost unit who has a 2-4x more chance to mana burn than any other demon. Even if she was trash, having her spiderlings do 1/3 of your MAX health at the end of the turn is not the way to balance her.
You havent seen Tristana?
With pirate/gunslinger or gunslinger/blade master being bascially the most broken teamcomps in existence as of now?
As for not seeing any nobles and few Knights.....i mean yeah, you dont go for pure nobles unless you think you can pull off the 6 nobles (needs both kayle and leona) while knights kinda suck, always have sucked.
You get Garen for the noble buff, Darius for the imperial, Poppy for Yordles and Seju for Glacials etc.
As for her manaburn chance.....you realize that she has to transform to have a shot at doing anything right? But she is so garbage that she not only takes ages to do it, it doesnt even do that much.
As for her end of the turn damage.
A tier 1 upgraded to 3 stars will do 4 damage, then 4 more because she summons 4 spiders (bronze units) as a 3 stars or "gold" unit.
Then 2 base damage from the winning legend.
So she can, with all her spiders alive, do 10 damage.'
Which is just short of 30% of the 30% you claim that she does.'
https://lolchess.gg/guide/damage
Questions?
Janna Me Fiddle2 votesTrist is easy to deal with though because Gunslingers have several weaknesses:
Low late game agency. Slingers have terrible scaling compared to other comps, especially in regards to damage and health. They're strong early but weak late.
Focus on one hyper carry unit. Slingers are all about stacking the hell out of Tristana and praying she gets shrinks off, if she doesn't the comp dies, can easily be teched against by dropping a 
.
Extremely vulnerable to Ionic spark. Because Tristana and Lucians mana bars build quickly, they get off a lot of abilities, the more abilities they use, the more Ionic spark procs. Gunslingers have low hp and effectively end up killing themselves by constantly triggering Ionic spark.
Cannot deal with Yordle comps. Even with RFC on Trist by the time they start shrinking, Trist is alone because Kennen and Poppy have usually wiped the front line.
It's why Slingers aren't getting nerfed but Demons are. Demons are much harder to counter than Slingers and are strong all game long.
Thefrostyviking2 votes[{quoted}](name=Janna Me Fiddle,realm=EUW,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=0JL7IMEr,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-28T19:21:54.170+0000)
Trist is easy to deal with though because Gunslingers have several weaknesses:
Low late game agency. Slingers have terrible scaling compared to other comps, especially in regards to damage and health. They're strong early but weak late.
Focus on one hyper carry unit. Slingers are all about stacking the hell out of Tristana and praying she gets shrinks off, if she doesn't the comp dies, can easily be teched against by dropping a
Blitz is easily countered by good positioning, there are places he can never hope to reach.
- Extremely vulnerable to Ionic spark. Because Tristana and Lucians mana bars build quickly, they get off a lot of abilities, the more abilities they use, the more Ionic spark procs. Gunslingers have low hp and effectively end up killing themselves by constantly triggering Ionic spark.
This is true and i played against it myself so i know its good, but you need at least 2 of them as i was able to brutally beat the few people i met who had just 1.
- Cannot deal with Yordle comps. Even with RFC on Trist by the time they start shrinking, Trist is alone because Kennen and Poppy have usually wiped the front line.
Kennen and poppy basically dont do that much damage though? Phantom dancer+warmog+resistance item against the main damage carry and your frontline wont die against yordles because they lack damage.......hells the only time i see a yordle comp really do well later on is when they have a gold veigar.
It's why Slingers aren't getting nerfed but Demons are. Demons are much harder to counter than Slingers and are strong all game long.
And yet gunslingers is likely the most played and powerful comp currently in play.
Just look at the boards post i linked, was like 5 outa 7 or something running them, then it was a demon or a sorcerer if memory serves.
Janna Me Fiddle1 votesBlitz is easily countered by good positioning, there are places he can never hope to reach.
This is true and i played against it myself so i know its good, but you need at least 2 of them as i was able to brutally beat the few people i met who had just 1.
Kennen and poppy basically dont do that much damage though? Phantom dancer+warmog+resistance item against the main damage carry and your frontline wont die against yordles because they lack damage.......hells the only time i see a yordle comp really do well later on is when they have a gold veigar.
And yet gunslingers is likely the most played and powerful comp currently in play.
Just look at the boards post i linked, was like 5 outa 7 or something running them, then it was a demon or a sorcerer if memory serves.
Kennen with Morellos, Poppys damage is greatly underestimated, the issue again, is Demon synergy being overpowered and manaburn proccing far too easily/often (as you just admitted, they're putting in Demons to get the demon synergy for the manaburn which is artificially making the comp stronger than it is without demon)
It's also far easier to build double Ionic spark and a morellos than it is to get PD/WM/CLAW plus RFC/CB/CB.
Edit: Also to note, play rate doesn't equal win rate. If 5/7 players are running Slingers, they will eliminate themselves by drawing from the same pool and gimping their build. Yordles are not as heavily contested with the exception of Kennen (because he's laughably broken right now) and you can easily get a single Trist early on just for synergy while building Kennen and Veigar as your carries.
Thefrostyviking1 votes[{quoted}](name=Janna Me Fiddle,realm=EUW,application-id=RaE1aOE7,discussion-id=0JL7IMEr,comment-id=000500000000000000000000,timestamp=2019-07-28T19:46:00.452+0000)
Kennen with Morellos, Poppys damage is greatly underestimated, the issue again, is Demon synergy being overpowered and manaburn proccing far too easily/often (as you just admitted, they're putting in Demons to get the demon synergy for the manaburn which is artificially making the comp stronger than it is without demon)
Dragons claw to counter magic damage.
Poppy like all lower class-knights is good early but kinda suck even later, exception is her gold version.
And yeah manaburn easily activates.....but you wana know something about it? Its entirely bleeding useless if you have too many demons hitting that beefy tank, because he just wont accumulate mana thus it wont really hurt him more than like 2 damage extra per hit.
Some like Kassadin wont take any extra damage at all.
Ionic spark needs a needless+negatron cloack, ......it´s entirely RNG based really, same as any other item you might want.
It's also far easier to build double Ionic spark and a morellos than it is to get PD/WM/CLAW plus RFC/CB/CB.
There is no such thing as "easier to build", there is only RNG.
Edit: Also to note, play rate doesn't equal win rate. If 5/7 players are running Slingers, they will eliminate themselves by drawing from the same pool and gimping their build. Yordles are not as heavily contested with the exception of Kennen (because he's laughably broken right now) and you can easily get a single Trist early on just for synergy while building Kennen and Veigar as your carries.
Kennen is straight up garbage as i see it, if someone runs a backline heavy comp then he ends up missing 4 outa 5 useful ults and if the enemy frontline has even a bit of magic resistance then he doesnt even do much damage to them either.
Gold Veigar is a monstrosity though-
And who says yodles are not contested? Lulu, Tristana, Veigar and Gnar are all picks used by many.
iainB852 votesThis is the Morde argument, and frankly I don't like it.
"Morde is bad because Phantom is good".
How about balance Phantom and Morde instead of having to make one of them bad at sacrifice of the other?
Thefrostyviking1 votesThis is the Morde argument, and frankly I don't like it.
"Morde is bad because Phantom is good".
How about balance Phantom and Morde instead of having to make one of them bad at sacrifice of the other?
Wait how did i even argue anything remotely close to the morde argument?
I stated that elise kinda sucks horribly unless she transforms, and even then she isnt actually that great at all.
The only merit is that she does a bit more damage to your legend if she wins than usual but its not by much at all, if you replace her with a stronger unit that helps you win fights easier with more units alive then its just more profitable.
iainB851 votesSorry, I was responding to the original part of this tread:
It's the upside of having an Elise, since there really isn't any other upside other than being a token synergy unit.
The Riot forums are absolutely horribly designed and not intuitive compared to many other forums I've used, lol. Can't even highlight a section of a post and quote it, jesus.
Barkley4 votesIf you took this away from elise there would legitimately be no reason to buy her, though. This is the ONLY good thing about Elise.
Everything else she does, someone else does better.
Shapeshifter? Gnar is better. Shyv is better. Nidalee is better. Swain is better. Demon? Pick a different demon -- they're better. (Evelynn is probably just as trash)
I wouldn't mind if they got rid of elise's extra damage IF they allowed her spiders to apply on-hit effects. But since her spiders don't apply on-hit effects -- this is kinda the only thing she's got goin for her, bud.
Janna Me Fiddle5 votesThey apply Demon burn which is already incredibly strong.
She's a one cost unit, one costs should not be performing at the same level as some 3 costs which Elise absolutely is because of the bonus player damage.
iainB852 votesIf you took this away from elise there would legitimately be no reason to buy her, though. This is the ONLY good thing about Elise.
Everything else she does, someone else does better.
Shapeshifter? Gnar is better. Shyv is better. Nidalee is better. Swain is better. Demon?
Well ALL of those champions cost more, so I would expect them to be better. They patched Elise from 2 gold to 1 gold for exactly this reason. Common units are meant to be early game into synergy, not have perks late game. Spider damage should most certainly be removed IMO.
DUDE BRO3 votes
FireDrizzle2 votesElise is the champ you dont want too draw and also dont want too play against. This should be changed but bringing up what gold Elise can do is a bit ridiculous with her being the weakest champ in the game too make gold, if you are losing too a team almost -1 a champ then its hopeless. Honestly anything else costing 9 gold is tankier, does twice as much damage and/or has utility than gold Elise.
KillerQueenXIII2 votesIt just seems like it allows people to easily stomp out other players early on as well (In a really cheap, unfair way), before they can even get their build going.
This generally won't make a huge difference against a player who has already had decent luck... So it essentially just punishes players who are already a bit behind (Making it much more difficult for them to make a comeback, especially if they're unlucky enough to frequently go against the person with Elise). It just feels really cheap, ultimately, and I can't see why it would be good for the game.
Panthaz891 votesIdk its one of the things i'm fine with considering Elise is still rather weak compared to the snake that summons snake wards(that unit is actually good too) in the other games this is actually rather pedestrian.
14daysuspensionk1 votesWell it is how her spiderlings work on SR...