The whole Xerath thing where you get Ascended and lose mana costs and become powerful and big was a really fun game. Also where anyone can comeback at any moment due to gold gains and the various strats that popped up (rush top and bot relics, etc)
Decrit5 votesI don' t paricolary like Dominion but i loved Ascension, both gameplay wise and graphical wise since Dominion shows off really cool models but a somewhat lacking texture, and the sand compromised for that.
However i would not be so quick to delete Dominion, since is an old time favourite for a little niche of players ( unless many dominion players love ascension too, but as i see is not the case ) and would be awful and inconsiderate to thrash it.
And they won't add it as a permanent game mode because it would take effort to keep it at least a bit balanced/bugless.
SKOBODO4 votesWhy did you enjoy Ascension better than Dominion? Pretty much everyone I've talked to preferred Dominion, so I'm curious to hear why. I personally preferred Dominion as well, Ascension had a lot of issues.
Xonra3 votesWhy did you enjoy Ascension better than Dominion? Pretty much everyone I've talked to preferred Dominion, so I'm curious to hear why. I personally preferred Dominion as well, Ascension had a lot of issues.
On the opposite end I've never talked to anyone ever that enjoyed Dominion, let alone more than Ascension.
It is pretty clear it is a popular opinion (the one I stated), since Dominion is played so little Riot doesn't even bother balancing the items or champions there anymore. It is so abandoned that Riot had to implement a system for detecting bots (not only for but mostly for) because most people were just botting to grind IP and XP.
Dominion is, without my own bias, the least popular game mode.
SKOBODO3 votesOn the opposite end I've never talked to anyone ever that enjoyed Dominion, let alone more than Ascension.
It is pretty clear it is a popular opinion (the one I stated), since Dominion is played so little Riot doesn't even bother balancing the items or champions there anymore. It is so abandoned that Riot had to implement a system for detecting bots (not only for but mostly for) because most people were just botting to grind IP and XP.
Dominion is, without my own bias, the least popular game mode.
It is the least popular permanent mode, no doubt, but Ascension quickly fell off in popularity (at least based on my queue times). If it were around, it'd probably end up more dead than Dominion, since it's a more shallow mode. Dominion offers better decision-making, is overall much, much more balanced. What makes you prefer Ascension?
"Riot doesn't bother balancing the items or champions"
Actually, they recently gave Gangplank map specific buffs, and they've talked about map specific buffs to Garen as well. Which champions would need map-specific nerfs or buffs, do you think? It's currently a fairly balanced mode (or it at least was until last patch, more testing needs to be done).
As for items, sure, they could do more. Better ADC itemization and better anti-stealth itemization would be nice. At least they reduced the price of Hextech Sweeper, Odyn's Veil and Moonflair Spellblade by 50 gold, although I don't know whether it was intentional or an accident.
Xonra4 votesIt is the least popular permanent mode, no doubt, but Ascension quickly fell off in popularity (at least based on my queue times). If it were around, it'd probably end up more dead than Dominion, since it's a more shallow mode. Dominion offers better decision-making, is overall much, much more balanced. What makes you prefer Ascension?
"Riot doesn't bother balancing the items or champions"
Actually, they recently gave Gangplank map specific buffs, and they've talked about map specific buffs to Garen as well. Which champions would need map-specific nerfs or buffs, do you think? It's currently a fairly balanced mode (or it at least was until last patch, more testing needs to be done).
As for items, sure, they could do more. Better ADC itemization and better anti-stealth itemization would be nice. At least they reduced the price of Hextech Sweeper, Odyn's Veil and Moonflair Spellblade by 50 gold, although I don't know whether it was intentional or an accident.
According to numbers (less % numbers and them just stating the numbers they had at the time) Riot shared, it actually grew in popularity as the event went on, not the opposite, let alone quickly falling off. Think you just had bad luck with queue times.
It sounds like we are just differently biased towards dominion, and in reality you just really like it, because the point you made about it offering better decision making and being more balanced I totally disagree with.
I enjoyed Ascension myself because it was a nice break from the strategy of 5v5 or 3v3 with take tower, take baron/dragon, etc etc. While Dominion offers some of that, it just feels like a run around mode trying to be super different, but at the same time trying NOT to be super different, and loses itself in there. Ascension was just a mad house at times, and I loved that aspect of it, because sometimes that is a great break.
Right now ARAM is all we have for that, and it has become too try hard with the "aram only" alts and the like (sad that people still bother doing that), and honestly it isn't that much different as you still have the tower objective to deal with.
SKOBODO3 votesIt sounds like we are just differently biased towards dominion, and in reality you just really like it, because the point you made about it offering better decision making and being more balanced I totally disagree with.
Dominion being pretty well balanced has been known for some time now. Most champions are viable, and not many champions are OP (not sure if 5.16 changed that though). As for decision making, I think it does. At most points in the game, you have at, generally speaking, 4 decisions (aside from reactive decisions such as "stop their cap"). Oh, and this is speaking from a top-lane perspective. Bot-lane is pretty boring (imo).
1: Push the lanes. Usually not the right decision, but sometimes it is. 2: Roam the jungle. Often the right decisions, since it established vision, jungle control, and you might be able to catch someone and get some kills. This is generally best done together with your team, since you don't want to get caught in a 1v3 situation. 3: Backcap a point. Usually mid. This requires good map awareness and good knowledge of the map, but it's a powerful option in the right hands. 4: Gank bot. Also a very good option in many cases.
I think a lot of people tend to default to pushing the lane towards the windmill, also known as "windmilling". This is generally a mistake and will lose you lots of games (and is likely to make you bored). Pushing should usually just be done briefly, and generally with no more than 1 person. Pushing as 4 generally doesn't work very well.
Xonra2 votesDominion being pretty well balanced has been known for some time now. Most champions are viable, and not many champions are OP (not sure if 5.16 changed that though). As for decision making, I think it does. At most points in the game, you have at, generally speaking, 4 decisions (aside from reactive decisions such as "stop their cap"). Oh, and this is speaking from a top-lane perspective. Bot-lane is pretty boring (imo).
1: Push the lanes. Usually not the right decision, but sometimes it is. 2: Roam the jungle. Often the right decisions, since it established vision, jungle control, and you might be able to catch someone and get some kills. This is generally best done together with your team, since you don't want to get caught in a 1v3 situation. 3: Backcap a point. Usually mid. This requires good map awareness and good knowledge of the map, but it's a powerful option in the right hands. 4: Gank bot. Also a very good option in many cases.
I think a lot of people tend to default to pushing the lane towards the windmill, also known as "windmilling". This is generally a mistake and will lose you lots of games (and is likely to make you bored). Pushing should usually just be done briefly, and generally with no more than 1 person. Pushing as 4 generally doesn't work very well.
That is an opinion, not a fact. Your idea of balance isn't my idea of balance. I find Dominion to be rather unbalanced actually. There are champions that can completely dominate Dominion (such as Riven).
Not really sure what else to add as it just sounds like you really like Dominion, and I don't have much else to add that I haven't already, as I don't agree with your points.
SKOBODO3 votesThat is an opinion, not a fact. Your idea of balance isn't my idea of balance. I find Dominion to be rather unbalanced actually. There are champions that can completely dominate Dominion (such as Riven).
Not really sure what else to add as it just sounds like you really like Dominion, and I don't have much else to add that I haven't already, as I don't agree with your points.
"Opinion" based on a lot of data and experience. Riven isn't even a top 30 champion on Dominion. Dominion is actually far less snowbally than, well, pretty much every other map in the game. On SR and TT, if you get 3-4 kills early you are likely to snowball. In Dominion, 3-4 kills won't matter that much (unless you're bot, and even then it's just a gold lead of like 300 + whichever minions you manage to farm while your opponent is dead). Is Dominion 100% balanced? No, but no map is. SR gets balance changes aimed at it every single patch, yet a lot of champions are considered unviable.
Minarde2 votesI think Sylian just meant to expand on the "more shallow mode" idea when he mentioned the "better decision making" thing. Ascension greatly simplified most of Dominion's gameplay aspects (Capture and Hold reduced to just Capture; lopped off half of the map; removed minion wave management; removed recall considerations). Ascended Xerath was, admittedly, more complex than the Greater Relics are, but didn't really make up for the shallower decision-making everywhere else. So "better decision making" in the sense that Dominion has more depth than Ascension. Meaningful choices and whatnot.
If I'm understanding you correctly, you prefer Ascension because it offered a more casual, relaxing experience than Dominion? That's actually a pretty common opinion in my experience. Ascension worked well as a pick-up-and-play game mode for winding down and relaxing. On the other hand, Dominion resonates better with people looking for a high-tension competitive mode. Which game mode is "better" just depends on what type of experience a player is looking for.
[Dominion] just feels like a run around mode trying to be super different, but at the same time trying NOT to be super different, and loses itself in there.
My observation is that Dom is super different, but many players get lost trying to force it to not be super different. Expecting the map to fit the standard SR/TT/HA-style gameplay has led people to have some really confusing experiences.
SKOBODO2 votes"better decision making" was in comparison with Ascension, yes. SR does have a lot of decision making at the higher level (as you can see in LCS and Worlds), and so does TT. Dominion offers quite a bit of decision making too, which I felt Ascension didn't really do. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Ascension basically boiled down to "Do I contest a Relic, or contest Xerath", and the second decision is hard to do on your own.
Dominion has a lot of comeback potential, it doesn't tend to be very snowbally. Of course, if your team goes 0/10 in the first 10 minutes, you'll probably lose. Anyway, I'd still like to know why you don't like Dominion that much, you haven't really answered that.
IlyaK19862 votesAscension just honestly felt shallow. Basically, endless face-smashing, and that was that. High-level dominion is VERY different from any other mode, but unfortunately, nobody's around to actually play it, so finding games is very difficult.
Tsumikiri1 votesI loved getting a group of 5 friends together for Ascension. We had a lot of fun experimenting with different comps and strategies. We had previously tried to do that with dominion but we just felt like we were running around all over the place (and always losing). Maybe we should've researched dominion more. I think the simplicity of ascension combined with its unique objectives and sort of "team deathmatch" vibe made it really fun. It was easy to pick up and play and enjoy.
Rebonack1 votesThe big difference between Dominion and Ascension was, as has been pointed out, a difference of complexity.
Ascension basically boiled down to 'capture ALL the things!'.
Dominion has minion wave management, the question of who should grab the storm shield and when, bottom lane to control/gank, points to defend and take, zones of the jungle to control, and so on and so forth.
I suspect part of the reason why some people liked Ascension more was because it was simpler. It was really clear what you were supposed to do and the optimal strategies were obvious for the most part. Dominion has a lot of anti-intuitive aspects that sabotage new player experience. Probably the best thing Riot could do for the map on the low-effort side of things would be to either make pushing a minion wave a slightly more rewarding choice (or at least less of a trap option) and/or add some more objectives to the Jungle that would encourage proper control.
SKOBODO2 votesProbably the best thing Riot could do for the map on the low-effort side of things would be to either make pushing a minion wave a slightly more rewarding choice (or at least less of a trap option) [...]
I think the opposite might be a better idea. Make pushing minion waves slightly less rewarding, so fewer people default to doing so. They could, for instance, reduce the amount of golds from minions and increase ambient gold a bit. Or perhaps add a tip that helps people understand that jungle control is important.
Kholdstare131 votesI think the opposite might be a better idea. Make pushing minion waves slightly less rewarding, so fewer people default to doing so. They could, for instance, reduce the amount of golds from minions and increase ambient gold a bit. Or perhaps add a tip that helps people understand that jungle control is important.
A tutorial would solve that. We can't nerf minions without screwing up bot lane. Just make sure there's a "Stay out of sight!" ping/message equally annoying to SR's "Stay behind your minions!" tutorial to really drill it in hard.
SKOBODO1 votesA tutorial would solve that. We can't nerf minions without screwing up bot lane. Just make sure there's a "Stay out of sight!" ping/message equally annoying to SR's "Stay behind your minions!" tutorial to really drill it in hard.
Slightly nerfing minion gold probably wouldn't screw up bot lane though, and it'd make it less obnoxious when one bot laner is dominating their lane. It would also encourage a more fluid bot lane, with more switches. Let's say 25+25+50 instead of 30+30+60, with slightly increased ambient gold to keep the overall gold level stable. Each wave would give 100 gold instead of 120 gold. Something more drastic, like 20+20+40 would probably work too, 80 gold per wave.
A tutorial would be nice, assuming it'd be good. It might not be.
Kholdstare131 votesSlightly nerfing minion gold probably wouldn't screw up bot lane though, and it'd make it less obnoxious when one bot laner is dominating their lane. It would also encourage a more fluid bot lane, with more switches. Let's say 25+25+50 instead of 30+30+60, with slightly increased ambient gold to keep the overall gold level stable. Each wave would give 100 gold instead of 120 gold. Something more drastic, like 20+20+40 would probably work too, 80 gold per wave.
A tutorial would be nice, assuming it'd be good. It might not be.
A small enough change to leave the bot dynamic as a clash of titans would not deter noobs from farm-pushing windmill all the time. The dynamic keeps bot as the strongest, a person none of the tops want to face alone. It makes ganks a matter of how you can assist your own bot in taking out the enemy, and provides a lot of viability for champions who would otherwise be too easy/appealing for assassins to continuously poke in and out of bot killing before going back top.
You make a point about when one bot is dominating, it does skew the game. The idea of bot carrying comes from this, as it really is hard to overcome. Switch too late and the dominating bot has a massive lead over the new potential opponent. Early care and support for your bot so they don't fall behind becomes important.
The dynamic is perfect in an even match, but in a lopsided match it can snowball out of control if the behind team can't pull off a few quick ganks to get their bot back up to speed, or kickstart a new bot.
Perhaps the best solution is increasing the bounty of a champion who kills minions each time they do, and possibly reducing the minion gold by that same amount. Bot lane evens out if they can each get a successful gank against the other to collect, and in the case where one dominates they can be killed by a coordinated gank to give a big gold boost to the new potential bot swap instead of having it all stuck pre-invested in the struggling original.
Rebonack2 votesProbably the best thing Riot could do for the map on the low-effort side of things would be to either make pushing a minion wave a slightly more rewarding choice (or at least less of a trap option) [...]
I think the opposite might be a better idea. Make pushing minion waves slightly less rewarding, so fewer people default to doing so. They could, for instance, reduce the amount of golds from minions and increase ambient gold a bit. Or perhaps add a tip that helps people understand that jungle control is important.
People will still do it, though.
It's the default behavior to take for MOBAs.
A tutorial could help, but I'm not sure if I trust Riot to know what proper play on Dominion looks like. Sure, they could talk to us. But what are the chances of that happening?
If you wanted to be really ham-fisted about it, you could just remove the minion waves from everywhere except the bottom lane. On the one hand, that would remove tricks like blowing up the two caster minions and then back-capping once a big wave has built up. On the other, it would remove the minion-pushing trap option.
Either way, the map needs work.
If Riot would just be willing to talk with us about, I'm sure we could figure something out that would make Dominion more fun for everyone involved.
SKOBODO1 votesA tutorial could help, but I'm not sure if I trust Riot to know what proper play on Dominion looks like. Sure, they could talk to us. But what are the chances of that happening?
Not to mention how most top NA Dominion players seem to have quit or almost quit Dominion, and the chances of them talking with EUW players are slim.
If you wanted to be really ham-fisted about it, you could just remove the minion waves from everywhere except the bottom lane. On the one hand, that would remove tricks like blowing up the two caster minions and then back-capping once a big wave has built up. On the other, it would remove the minion-pushing trap option.
This solution would help players not windmill, but it'd also dumb down the map a bit and make it a bit less complex, so I'm not sure. It'd also remove one way for a winning team to put pressure (splitpush towards their mid).
If Riot would just be willing to talk with us about, I'm sure we could figure something out that would make Dominion more fun for everyone involved.
I'm not so sure it'd be so easy. Even Dominion players seem split on what they want. So many of the ideas I've heard are pretty bad.
