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Hey man...

SilentConquest··146 votes·28,750 views

Just wanna give a quick shout-out to Riot ShadowStorm.

He went in to the Story & Art board to post about stuff that was lore related. He knew we'd jump him for it for the simple fact that he brought no new lore/explanations/developments. He's doing his best based on what he knows and what he can offer us (granted, isn't much/helpful) but man, he's talking to us. He's actually trying to give us some kind of discussion about stuff we really want to talk about, to the best of his abilities!

I know I've downvoted him for statements I don't agree with, but I'll be damned if he doesn't deserve some respect for trudging into an area that is (deservedly) hostile. It takes some nuts to head into a place you know people won't like ya.

Yes, we deserve better lore. Yes, new lore is lacking. Yes, Narrative has been disturbingly absent. And yes, I'm super frustrated about the retcon.

But this dude (or chick!) is trying to at least talk to us about it in an aggressive environment. He at least deserves a shout-out for that much, because what he's doing is more than Narrative is giving us right now.

I know we've been giving you a hard time, ShadowStorm. We aren't grumpy at you personally, but you were the Rioter that showed up and we're all rather grumpy at how things have been (not) developing.

Stay up, buddy. I know we're... rough to deal with, but we really do appreciate that someone is at least trying.

143 Comments

RiotBioluminescence57 votes

It can be tough to wade right in there, and I too respect ShadowStorm for doing so. "The Separate Discussion" is a beast of a thread now - clearly showing (or rather, totally underlining to anyone who's been listening!) how much these things matter to the players on this board. I've been very interested to read it too - the different reactions to things like the Rek'Sai intro thing, vs. the Bard Mountain video could not be more eloquently stated.

I've disagreed with some of the things ShadowStorm has said, but it's just been opinion vs. opinion. I think it's more important to me to hear another Rioter's take on it on the boards and you guys dialogue with him, than for me to turn it into a red name chat. Which, you know, seems a weird place to do that :)

ShadowStorm - we should chat in person if you're in LAX (not during this week's Wednesday-Friday madness though). From one non-narrative but lore-friendly rioter to another :)

I would really really like to thank you all from that thread for not lashing out at him. It would have been the easiest thing in the world to pick him as a target and go at it - a totally human response - but you didn't. Thank you for being far more mature than internet forums are ever given credit for - it's been an impassioned, adult, conversation with clearly stated positions and well thought through points.

Chromatic Eagle5 votes

I appreciate you doing this, and I hate to be that guy, but what do you disagree with ShadowStorm about? I'm not trying to start a cage match here, but for a while now many of us have felt that Riot has taken a solidarity stance regarding the retcon. Even if they acknowledge the handling of it is bad, it seems like the company stands by with its decision.

I assume you do as well, but you're the only person so far who has even stated that we should be angry at the handling of the lore, not that we should just calm down and wait. Of course, we need a healthier way to express that anger, but it's nice to see someone who at least doesn't try to patronize us.

Unfortunately, I think that's due to you "just" showing up at Riot. I don't think you've been assimilated yet.

We may be defensive about the old lore, but you do bring up fair points regarding rivals being made to work together, and the disconnect between lore and in-game portrayals, along with fan perceptions.

I know this might backfire horrifically, and could be scary to do so (with good reason), but maybe you can create a thread sometime to talk about the lore. I don't know what topic you might choose, but the dialogue can help ease things with the company. At worst, Riot can't hide behind not knowing what fans want or feel the next time they retcon something.

RiotBioluminescence40 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chromatic Eagle,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=ze8Xehvs,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2015-05-18T16:05:21.395+0000)

I appreciate you doing this, and I hate to be that guy, but what do you disagree with ShadowStorm about? I'm not trying to start a cage match here, but for a while now many of us have felt that Riot has taken a solidarity stance regarding the retcon. Even if they acknowledge the handling of it is bad, it seems like the company stands by with its decision.

Hey, Chromatic Eagle.

Ok, so my disagreements with ShadowStorm's opinions (Woo! Opinion 'fight'!) I went through the thread identifying bits and pieces to quote, but I think my overarching difference of opinion is that I think we need, at Riot, to do some proving of our intentions. I believe that it would be very helpful if we were to take a contained story involving a champion (or more than two, ideally), in a rich, consistent, setting, and give it a beginning, middle and end.

The rest of this is less about my disagreement with one or two of ShadowStorm's opinions, and more an elaboration on my position. I agree with him on other bits though! We're not going to come to blows, I hope!

Maybe our plan is more of the slow establishing glimpses - but I think there's a lot of red on our ledger in terms of lore goodwill and that getting a fully formed story out in really short order would help more than most other actions would. Maybe that messes up a long term plan - my (headstrong) attitude would be to damn the consequences and do something now*. (Or as quickly as humanly possible.)

I don't want to expose a champion and leave no room for future mysteries and stories - of course not - but I could read a Batman comic arc and feel that I had a full story, without precluding the opportunity for future Batman stories. I could watch an episode of Doctor Who and feel that we had a conclusion - even if I will not be surprised to see the Daleks again, or discover that clues from that episode tie into the series finale.

My personal opinion is that we've been creating our cold-opens - the bit of a TV show before the opening credits kick in. We've shown our main character, we get a glimpse of their world, we get a few character-establishing lines and then we leave it hanging. The rest of the episode hasn't turned up yet. Maybe if we take the long view, it'll all be great - we'll get the whole episode and more episodes besides! But (as Ekko proves) timeliness does matter.

ShadowStorm describes this as releasing chapter 1 - and that's a very good way of describing it. I would rather we had lots of stories in different stages - a few that have finished book 1, a few half way through book 2, and a few that are only up to chapter 1, 6, or even 15.

Of course, until we manage to release something that starts to prove that we can move beyond chapter 1, our ledger will continue to drip with red ink. I hope we can start turning that around asap.

Also, I should note I am not as well read in the lore as ShadowStorm is. I have not read all the JoJ yet - I read it on a per-champion basis when I want to know more about that particular champion. Especially if there's a lore thread about that champ, and I want to be able to follow along. So he's more in the know than I am on any particular element.

Retillin11 votes

{quoted}

Hey, Chromatic Eagle.

Ok, so my disagreements with ShadowStorm's opinions (Woo! Opinion 'fight'!) I went through the thread identifying bits and pieces to quote, but I think my overarching difference of opinion is that I think we need, at Riot, to do some proving of our intentions. I believe that it would be very helpful if we were to take a contained story involving a champion (or more than two, ideally), in a rich, consistent, setting, and give it a beginning, middle and end.

This is the issue that has been plaguing Riot for the past 18ish months glaringly, and about 2-2.5 years more and more. We keep hearing the SAME thing. "We at Riot need to communicate more". But it just doesn't happen. The board will get quite for a month or so, and then when the frustration builds we get that same reply over and over. It's become the new "soonTM". And that is a sad failure as a company.

Chromatic Eagle2 votes

I appreciate you trying to read it at all. I don't know what access Riot has to the lore, but the League wiki is a good start. I hope you get to read the judgments and old bios too.

What are your favorite champions, stories, and settings so far? New or old lore.

RiotBioluminescence11 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chromatic Eagle,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=ze8Xehvs,comment-id=0002000000000001,timestamp=2015-05-18T18:09:37.995+0000)

I appreciate you trying to read it at all. I don't know what access Riot has to the lore, but the League wiki is a good start. I hope you get to read the judgments and old bios too.

What are your favorite champions, stories, and settings so far? New or old lore.

I have a fondness for Sona (despite her being pretty milquetoast) because I play her, and my headcanon has her connection to Ionia and her instrument being a rich source of story potential. Didn't think much of her League Judgement, however. (And yes, I go to the wiki a lot.)

I also really like both Braum and Jinx - they're both just so strong personality archetypes that I can imagine how they might react in most situations. I.e. the personalities live in my head enough to tell me what they'd do. (Not so much for Sona). I really wanted to love Bard, but as squishy looking as he is, I can't apply that same test successfully.

I also like the Diana/Leona relationship as it was explained to me (most enthusiastically) by another Rioter who is fairly Diana/Leona obsessed.

I like Shurima - or rather, I like the Shurima I made in my head for the map. There's a lot more background stuff I did to make the map that I didn't get a chance to surface, just so that I'd have a complete picture in mind (as well as who made it, who bought it, when it was made, what happened to it afterwards, how it resurfaced, etc.). I realize that's unfair for me to talk about this all, and I apologize. Hell, at one point I was writing traditional Shuriman nomad lullaby's as a form of folk-history of the time of the empire. So I'm kind of invested. (I actually started writing an ancient Shuriman ideogram system, but that was too nerdy even for me to feel comfortable showing to the rest of the map-making team. There's nothing quite as indulgent as making a con-lang!)

Also fancy Zaun and Bilgewater. Never been much of a Demacia, Noxus, or Freljord fan. Ionia intrigues me but it's too mysterious right now even for me. Triple that for Bandle City. The rest are not usually in my thoughts, alas.

Chromatic Eagle3 votes

Surprised you feel that way about Ionia. There are so many champions there, I figured that it was the most fleshed out place.

We need people like you to write the other regions the way you did Shurima, or we can get you to handle the rest.

Never been much of a Demacia fan.

Garen What was that?

RiotBioluminescence12 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chromatic Eagle,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=ze8Xehvs,comment-id=000200000000000100000001,timestamp=2015-05-18T21:12:17.511+0000)

Surprised you feel that way about Ionia. There are so many champions there, I figured that it was the most fleshed out place. ... Garen What was that?

Ruh roh! I... um... at least I'm not into Noxus either? Uhh... can I be neutral and independent? No? Clearly I need to hide out in a rogue state like Bilgewater or Zaun! Or maybe disappear into the desert, never to be seen again. Let's see how well your heavy armor serves you under the baking sun, shouty-man! ;)

RiotBioluminescence13 votes

{quoted}

Sounds like you haven't met Desert Trooper Garen. http://img3.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20100423113706/leagueoflegends/images/thumb/0/0c/Garen_DesertTrooperSkin.jpg/640px-Garen_DesertTrooperSkin.jpg

Ah great. Now I've not only pissed off all the Noxus champions (thanks Chromatic Eagle!!!) but a skin that's been legacy since 2012 is out to get me when I'd forgotten about it.

Well, I'm sure it can't get any worse, at least!

Verandure4 votes

I feel that cartography is one of the best forms of immersion into the world.

I know there's a lot of internal art that you guys get to see that we can't due to NDA, but have you guys updated the Valoran map since the Mount Gargantuan days?

(Personally, regional maps and a few world building images -- like your Shurima map and the images given during the Freljord event -- are enough for me. I care more about the setting than the characters, themselves)

RiotBioluminescence13 votes

{quoted}

I feel that cartography is one of the best forms of immersion into the world.

I know there's a lot of internal art that you guys get to see that we can't due to NDA, but have you guys updated the Valoran map since the Mount Gargantuan days?

(Personally, regional maps and a few world building images -- like your Shurima map and the images given during the Freljord event -- are enough for me. I care more about the setting than the characters, themselves)

You don't need to convince me how important a good world/level is! :)

I'm sure I can't say much, but I hope it's ok to say that the world and maps haven't been forgotten and have had a lot of work put into them by various people (when priorities allow). There was a big hiccough a while ago where the overall artistic direction was changed, which slows things down. Obviously, nothing full sized has been released yet and I don't know how much further there is to go on them and/or when they'd release them when they're done.

Doctor Ivellius5 votes

Completely agree with all of this. One of the problems with the retcon is that it reset everything back to "Chapter 0" instead of showing progress in telling stories like Riot had been doing with the Journal of Justice.

I'd also be surprised if your knowledge of the lore was atypical among Riot employees. I imagine having read some of it makes you more interested in the story than many of the employees there.

Starlighte6 votes

I think we are all in a similar level of agreeance with the simple statement of: we appreciate Bioluminescence and ShadowStorm engaging the community on lore but... it just further emphasizes the COMPLETE lack of effort to bridge the gap that Narrative has built up over the years... That is just another punch to the gut sadly

DG Ashabel3 votes

Ok, so my disagreements with ShadowStorm's opinions (Woo! Opinion 'fight'!) I went through the thread identifying bits and pieces to quote, but I think my overarching difference of opinion is that I think we need, at Riot, to do some proving of our intentions. I believe that it would be very helpful if we were to take a contained story involving a champion (or more than two, ideally), in a rich, consistent, setting, and give it a beginning, middle and end.

In his defense, ShadowStorm is a technical coordinator who is working directly on League of Legends. Which is to say, he's right in the thick of working on the game, he sees all the people working on it and has a perceptive that because so much work is being done in front of him, it means a lot of very visible results are being put out even when they're actually not. He's coming to terms with the idea that a lot of work done behind the scenes doesn't necessarily equal tangible gains for the audience.

For a comparison that you'll be familiar with, nobody doubts that massive amounts of work were done on Bioshock Infinite. However, I'm also pretty sure you braced yourself for the initial taste of disappointment that came when the final game came out and people complained about it not being nearly as open-ended as initial promotional videos looked, and the whole Heavy Hitters system turning out to be merely a bunch of bosses. Yes, the amount of work done was overwhelming when looking from it on the inside, but that didn't keep people from feeling that the end result was pretty barebones.

( I personally think the end result was exactly where it should've been, since I'm from the design school of ICO and Shadow of the Colossus that dictates that everything that doesn't provide a tangible weight to the player's experience should be chop-chopped. But that doesn't relate to the point I'm trying to make. )

RiotBioluminescence13 votes

[{quoted}](name=DG Ashabel,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=ze8Xehvs,comment-id=0002000000000005,timestamp=2015-05-19T01:39:37.299+0000)

For a comparison that you'll be familiar with, nobody doubts that massive amounts of work were done on Bioshock Infinite. However, I'm also pretty sure you braced yourself for the initial taste of disappointment that came when the final game came out and people complained about it not being nearly as open-ended as initial promotional videos looked, and the whole Heavy Hitters system turning out to be merely a bunch of bosses. Yes, the amount of work done was overwhelming when looking from it on the inside, but that didn't keep people from feeling that the end result was pretty barebones.

( I personally think the end result was exactly where it should've been, since I'm from the design school of ICO and Shadow of the Colossus that dictates that everything that doesn't provide a tangible weight to the player's experience should be chop-chopped. But that doesn't relate to the point I'm trying to make. )

I can see where you're coming from, and it's a good point to make. He does have a very different position at the company to see all this from. We're going to have a chat tomorrow, actually.

Just as an insight to my personal development ethos from other game developments; I believe that it doesn't matter how many tears you weep, late nights you spend, or unexpected bugs that crop up, in the end, the player doesn't care. It's very important that this is true - the player shouldn't care. What matters is the end result. One should never think that giving excuses to a player will make them think your game is better, or that they will forgive you for a bad game.

In the end, it only matters if what the players get to experience is good or not. I have to stand by it, and do better next time. :)

That's just my personal view I've developed over several years.

DG Ashabel11 votes

Oh yeah, I absolutely agree. I care because I'm a designer; chewing through design decisions of a work makes me learn new techniques, while hearing stories about development makes me find out how they came to be. But ultimately, the player won't care and they really don't have to. They simply need to be given a work as complete and enjoyable as possible.

However, Shadowstorm isn't the first developer to pop up on these boards and be baffled by the negative response, and I'm beginning to understand why. The League development team outside the lore department doesn't seem to realize that the game is in a terrible shape narratively and it's only a matter of time before it begins to impact their art direction.

I do think Shadowstorm will come around to understanding exactly how the players feel about the game's state. That, I feel, is pretty much the core of why people on these boards have such a low opinion on the narrative team. It never felt like their arguments considered the players' perspective of the situation.

Finnical5 votes

Agreed, whenever I have read the posts of Rioters outside the lore department they never seem aware of just how bad things look from our end. I also agree that this problem may grow if it continues to go on.

Something that is really heartening to me is that the community STILL cares about this issue. It isn't going away because we won't let it! I don't know how long it will take but I really hope someday, somehow, this fight will end in some improvement in this game's story (I wanted to say League's story, but it really isn't League anymore since the Retcon is it?).

I am aware some of you have given up fighting it; thanks for your contribution thus far, it helped.

TerraRising4 votes

I'm not about to jump on the "praise Rito" bandwagon. He did come into an earlier Ekko thread and, intentionally or not, snarkily said "Wait until the full lore comes out." That started the storm (as it were).

He's entitled to ask questions, and I commend him for doing it towards an otherwise ignored and neglected part of the community. However, someone should have warned him that this particular fanbase is really brutal.

Duke Anax9 votes

But to give him credit where credit is due, he is actually listening to and taking in the commend and he seems to be making an efford to understand the issue. He may have had a different starting point than most ofm us, but he is willing to come around as long as we make sense to him.

Guys like that are incredibly rare.

DG Ashabel6 votes

I imagine the reaction to him would be less negative if he didn't come at the tail end of Ekko's lore. To be as polite as possible, that blurb is embarrassingly horrible even by the already extremely low standards created by recent short blurbs.

CubedJustice3 votes

You have to remember though, Ekko hasn't been released yet, so his lore is still subject to change. I'm not saying it will, but you have to take it with a grain of salt.

DG Ashabel3 votes

That isn't the point of my comment at all though?

My point isn't that Ekko's lore will forever remain bad. My point is that Ekko's lore is currently in a very bad shape. It's a really terribly written blurb filled with some stylistic mistakes, one which came out days after an extremely well-done trailer that created some meaningful questions and discussions + made people thirsty for answers.

What I'm saying is that Shadowstorm wouldn't receive responses nearly as vitriolic if he didn't come onto the board when it's still abuzz with crushing disappointment over that lore blurb. It's like walking into a pub and trying to strike up a friendly conversation with its regulars even though there's obviously been a barfight and everyone is in a bad mood.

Finnical4 votes

I don't actually think the problem is that the blurb is all that bad, I think it's the environment it was released into. If we had a rich lore for every champion and for Runeterra itself, we would probably go, "Huh, that's pretty weak. Oh well, good stuff will come later." But since poor Ekko was dropped into an incredible lore-less void the poor kid was subject to incredible scrutiny since none of us have anything else to scrutinize. It happened to Bard too to a lesser extent.

Earl Eulrich6 votes

He's entitled to ask questions, and I commend him for doing it towards an otherwise ignored and neglected part of the community. However, someone should have warned him that this particular fanbase is really brutal.

Having read (and participated in) most of the discussion since the retcon I would actually say that most of it had been very polite and educated discussions with well articulated arguments. Sure, there had been some very negative threads - but those really had been the minority. So if by "brutal" you mean "honest, demanding and not shy to question Riots point of view/so called arguments/reasoning" then yea, by all means the community is "brutal" - but so would be any worthy discussion at e.g. a university. This is neither the place nor the time to just be quiet and encourage Riot on a very slippery slope they try to walk - it´s rather the last chance to cahllenge them to review their choices and maybe find a better path to walk forward (otherwise much more people will just give up on them and hope a new dawngate will come soon for moba-fans that actually care about a connection between gameplay and lore).

Jeddy01715 votes

I certainly appreciate the fact that a Rioter took part in a more serious discussion about the lore.Something that even Rioters who work on the lore are seemingly unwilling to do.

Celio Hogane HD2 votes

Lets be completelly serius, Bioluminiscence did a great job at that and was a good hope on it.

RiotShadowStorm just depressed me and almost uninstalled the game.

RiotBioluminescence3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Celio Hogane HD,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=ze8Xehvs,comment-id=000c,timestamp=2015-05-20T02:38:34.006+0000)

Lets be completelly serius, Bioluminiscence did a great job at that and was a good hope on it.

RiotShadowStorm just depressed me and almost uninstalled the game.

Hey, Celio,

What was it specifically that made you feel bad? ShadowStorm and I had a good long chat today over coffee about the boards here, the players who have been so poorly let down, and how Riot is going about lore in general, so I think I have a better handle on where he's at, and how he may have put his foot in his mouth at first. He hangs his head in shame when he thinks about how flippant he was at first, despite having been a Story & Art lurker for a while. Hard to really grok that it's a different perspective.

Maybe if you explain what he said to disappoint you, I can help if it was one of those times where trying to communicate through text results in crossed wires. Or, if it's not a misunderstanding, then we can look into that more deeply too. Obviously, until more story content comes out, there'll be no real improvement - I understand that.

I wish I could say I've heard there's at least something coming in the next week or so - but I'm pretty sure I can't say. And even if I were able to say something like that and it got pushed back, I'd hate me more than the total combined disgust and outrage of the players hopes I'd be betraying on this board. So just as well I can't say that. It's best to keep your heart hard until we can deliver. item 3110

Retillin5 votes

Bio, I have a question. Why does Riot's Lore team stay so silent so that other Rioters that try to defend them get run out of town? All this hate/anger/frustration is 100% on Riot's side, yet those that seem to either be causing it (or if not causing it the only ones able to truthfully talk about it) never are here?

I get the "we need to work harder to win back trust of the players", but this has been a total failure. I am happy that some Reds try to help.

Truth be told, someone who CAN talk about his needs to come forward and deal with the massive issues that has been caused by the disregard of the player base on this (and more but that's another story). It is more embarrassing than a multie billion dollar company should allow at ANY level, and I am sorry for the few Reds that take the brunt of it.

RiotBioluminescence11 votes

{quoted}

Bio, I have a question. Why does Riot's Lore team stay so silent so that other Rioters that try to defend them get run out of town? All this hate/anger/frustration is 100% on Riot's side, yet those that seem to either be causing it (or if not causing it the only ones able to truthfully talk about it) never are here?

Ok, I was trying to reply to this with my somewhat uninformed knowledge of the situation, but one of my many bullet points turned into an essay, so I'll dive deep instead of broad. This is one of the things that may be hindering the writing team from jumping in here - and may go some way to explain the "Riot only does lore to sell us stuff" accusation that sometimes gets mentioned.


Here's a bit of insight into how Riot works on the organizational side of things.

Riot is a pretty big company, and that's awesome for a lot of reasons. It's less awesome for other reasons. For example, some companies like Riot spin up teams devoted to creating something - some tangible result at the end, instead of a fuzzy goal. These are called 'products', even though sometimes that 'product' might not be something you buy. It's like a quest objective - an achievable target that you can say is finished, so you can start the next thing. Very useful in a living game development.

So everything that Riot release had a 'product team' behind it. What product is planned determines what Rioters are assigned to make it happen - if there's no 'product', then there's no-one assigned to it, and there's no work done on it. I.e. if you don't have a product, then it doesn't get made. Even if you made something in your own personal spare time, it couldn't go up on the website or anything official, unless a product was generated so that it could be translated/localized, announced, given the proper web support, properly integrated into the release schedule, etc.

(There are no one-man jobs, though coming up with an idea for a future product (new champ idea, or skin idea, or event idea) is totally exciting and open to input from anyone.)

Personal example - I worked on the Shurima map mostly in my spare time, with help from an artist and an outsourcer who were assigned to a less-product-oriented department. It didn't have a product assigned to it, and it's possible it may never have been released to players - if it were not for the fact that the Rek'Sai launch story product came along, and we discussed including the map with it. Synergy.

Writers are assigned to new champ team products, and to new skin product teams, or to event team products, or to cinematic trailer products, or music video products, etc. Even things like 'internal-use-only reference guide' product teams exist and have narrative time assigned to them. As far as I know, there is not something as undefined as a 'release more lore' product, despite many people wanting to do just that. This is why there's been a lot of accusations of "You only release stuff when you're trying to sell us things!" and that's sort of true and (maybe surprisingly) actually sort of false.

When we did the Harrowing/Black Mist event, that had a little story, a map, and a cinematic all to itself (those creepy puppets). It didn't really have anything substantial to buy involved with it. Until... it did. There was a Shadow Isles champ being developed roughly at the same time, so it made sense to bundle the two things together - and so we said hello to Kalista. Now it looked to the cynic like the Harrowing just existed to push Kalista sales. Would it make sense to avoid having Kalista released at the same time as the Harrowing? Not really - they synergize really nicely and make the event seem better. This sort of synergistic grouping happens quite often and I think is actually pretty cool.


Behind the scenes (and remember - I am not privy to these conversations) there may well be discussions on how best to create a supplemental 'product' over and above the previous typical products (events, champs, skins, cinematics) that can have the right people assigned to it. So that if there were content that had already been created, then it could get the support it needed to get out to players like us. Ideally this is done without too negatively affecting the other product teams, and the currently understaffed writing team.

Now, I don't want you to come away from this saying things like "OMG - Riot won't make anything unless it's a product they can sell us!" - that's not what the product system is. And please don't even come away saying "WTF - this 'product' organizational system is clearly the worst thing ever!" because it's really not. There's no perfect system, and this one works very well for many things, and very well for a game like League that isn't a 'ship it and run' development model. Releasing lore in any form needs proper support from several departments - even if it's just text on a page.

I had another bullet point that was all about how surprisingly time-intensive it is for a writer to be on a champ product team, but this is too long to read at this point, and I was up too late last night. I am tired enough to beg that you don't tear me a new one about this too badly, if it is taken poorly. That goes for you too, random Rioter reading this.

Neon Robot8 votes

[deleted]

RiotWhren4 votes

Further; unless I deeply misunderstand you, if a product ear-marked as "Core Lore" whose sole goal is to establish the Lore that every other product on the market currently has doesn't surface, League won't ever actually have a functional Lore ever.

We kinda do -- it's called Foundations, and it is a product team, albeit an internal product (the tangible product is the guides and sheets Biolum. was talking about earlier). It didn't -use- to be early on, but it is now. One of the things about Foundations, as I've mentioned before, is it's both writing and visuals. So it's not Narrative, but there are people from Narrative on it, and artists dedicated to it as well. Foundations doesn't write stories for externally facing products, though, but it guides these products through establishing the world and themes; essentially building a playground for other teams to take and develop. I apologize if this answer is confusing. :(

Eyrgos4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Whren,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=ze8Xehvs,comment-id=000c00000000000100000001,timestamp=2015-05-20T19:12:35.931+0000)

We kinda do -- it's called Foundations, and it is a product team, albeit an internal product (the tangible product is the guides and sheets Biolum. was talking about earlier). It didn't -use- to be early on, but it is now. One of the things about Foundations, as I've mentioned before, is it's both writing and visuals. So it's not Narrative, but there are people from Narrative on it, and artists dedicated to it as well. Foundations doesn't write stories for externally facing products, though, but it guides these products.

  1. why is this the first time we're hearing about these things after years or pleaing (ty anyway, means a lot you're making the effort; I just mean in general, why)?

  2. Foundations needs to begin releasing external products, once a month or no more than two months apart will do wonders for repairing our abused, neglected relationship.

RiotWhren7 votes

Hey Eyrgos, hope I can give some answers to your questions!

  1. foundations didn't exist as a product team before, as I mentioned, even though it was a team before (just didn't have a tangible product to ship). I'm sure you guys have noticed several structural shifts and part of it is aligning the pieces so there is a pipeline from beginning to end. In the beginning, the game was small enough that lore could be done on a smaller scale easily, but part of the growing pains were that in the interim period before these changes, it started burgeoning into a thing that began to lack coherence. So, the process of putting this structure in place to handle lore development on a large scale has taken a while.

  2. A lot of people on Foundations would LOVE to see our work out there, too, but I think we also believe that properly executed external products would be better than just throwing our raw scraps out to the wind. Executing external products takes time and coordination between different product teams (and things like localization). I know, it's no excuse -- but hopefully you guys will be able to see some of these external products soon. Not years soon.

Cuix8 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Whren,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=ze8Xehvs,comment-id=000c0000000000010000000100000000,timestamp=2015-05-20T19:39:19.780+0000)

A lot of people on Foundations would LOVE to see our work out there, too, but I think we also believe that properly executed external products would be better than just throwing our raw scraps out to the wind. Executing external products takes time and coordination between different product teams (and things like localization). I know, it's no excuse -- but hopefully you guys will be able to see some of these external products soon. Not years soon.

Why do you keep doing this to yourselves? The community cries out for content, repeatedly making it clear that scraps and bits are totally fine, and that we want to be a part of building this with you, or at least a part of the conversation... and then y'all go "No, don't look at it! It is ugly!" and keep us in the dark. Is it not obvious enough yet that keeping dark and quiet is what led us here in the first place?

Earl Eulrich8 votes
  1. foundations didn't exist as a product team before, as I mentioned, even though it was a team before (just didn't have a tangible product to ship). I'm sure you guys have noticed several structural shifts and part of it is aligning the pieces so there is a pipeline from beginning to end. In the beginning, the game was small enough that lore could be done on a smaller scale easily, but part of the growing pains were that in the interim period before these changes, it started burgeoning into a thing that began to lack coherence. So, the process of putting this structure in place to handle lore development on a large scale has taken a while.

has taken awhile? It seems to have barly started from a player perspective. Not to mention that the universe looked incredible promising before the retcon and now it just looks...empty and without proper direction or much individuality (r.i.p. trundle, is bandle city gonna stay or also change to some replaceable cliche?, skarner, politics/intrigue at the IOW...all this had been kind of outstanding and then got thrown away) + any normal person would 1st lay a proper foundation and then do a retcon (if he feels like he has no other option)

  1. A lot of people on Foundations would LOVE to see our work out there, too, but I think we also believe that properly executed external products would be better than just throwing our raw scraps out to the wind. Executing external products takes time and coordination between different product teams (and things like localization). I know, it's no excuse -- but hopefully you guys will be able to see some of these external products soon. Not years soon.

well, you guys want to get things out - the players want to see things. Doesn´t seem that complicated. But hey, better let the players just do what they apparently can do best: waiting forever, because layering team upon team in between writing the stuff and releasing it to public to boil it all down to 40word paragraphs or 2min vids is just working marvolous and nobody ever complained for the last 2years straight.

..sorry, but that just somehow really frustrates me right now (even more than the past years already), please don´t take it personal. But it just still seems like there´s only very little understanding of what the heck people expect from Riot at this point, despite well formed arguments about it that could fill the entire Wailing Wall in these Boards alone.

Chromatic Eagle6 votes
  1. So then why would you announce such a huge retcon if you had all of these structural issues going on? Did this occur after the retcon? It really feels like you guys didn't plan this well at all.

  2. You can make an argument that sharing it unofficially on the forums isn't fair for other regions, but please don't complain about the quality. We don't care. We gladly take info casually from AMAs and even the rare forum visit. We like the player-Riot communication about lore. You keep setting this high standard for yourselves despite not having much to produce, and when you do produce it we pick it apart because it doesn't seem good enough for the time it took to create it.

Daen12 votes

I think the point is that a lot of these initiatives never seem to make it to the public eye. It's great that you have a team that guides lore initiatives from a creative development standpoint, but the translation to the community basically comes in the form of two minute video clips and lonely paragraphs of lore. Riot might have the big picture, but the community certainly doesn't.

This is consistent across disciplines at Riot, by the way, it's not just limited to lore. Design has been doing a great job lately of bringing their projects and ideas into the community (which is awesome), but it's one of the only departments that seems to even be bothering to do so.

Even the Boards team, the group whose entire purpose is facilitating our communication here, hasn't spoken about any real change or improvements in months, nor have we as a community been involved in any real feedback-gathering discussions. We haven't seen a change log in probably about a year, and the last announced major functionality change was easily six months ago.


I don't mean to complain, it's just important to note that what happens within Riot rarely seems to make it to the playerbase in many scenarios.

TerraRising5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Whren,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=ze8Xehvs,comment-id=000c00000000000100000001,timestamp=2015-05-20T19:12:35.931+0000)

We kinda do -- it's called Foundations, and it is a product team, albeit an internal product (the tangible product is the guides and sheets Biolum. was talking about earlier). It didn't -use- to be early on, but it is now. One of the things about Foundations, as I've mentioned before, is it's both writing and visuals. So it's not Narrative, but there are people from Narrative on it, and artists dedicated to it as well. Foundations doesn't write stories for externally facing products, though, but it guides these products through establishing the world and themes; essentially building a playground for other teams to take and develop. I apologize if this answer is confusing. :(

The answer is not confusing. The answer is infuriating.

This is the sort of content some of us have been waiting years for, and you guys are holding on to it like Gollum and his precious ring. "You cannot seessss it because its mine-esss."

I mean, it's not like lore fans have been clamoring for just more cartoons and that nonsense. We're asking for more content, of all genres and types including text stories with a few pictures for flavor, comics and other easier to produce content. That's all we've been wanting for YEARS, and Riot's failed to deliver even that, ever since they gave up on the Journals of Justice and League Judgments four years ago.

And now, we're told that there is content being produced, but the fans can't see it because "f@$& the fans, they're not worthy of it's greatness."

I'm beginning to think this company just doesn't want lore fans. I'm beginning to believe that we're just going to be that part of the fanbase that Riot can actively ignore because each and every Rioter just doesn't give a shit about us. And, yes, this is the entire company at fault, not just one or two departments.

Jesus Christ, this is so infuriating...

RiotWhren7 votes

And now, we're told that there is content being produced, but the fans can't see it because "f@$& the fans, they're not worthy of it's greatness."

I apologize if my earlier comment made you feel this way; it is not the case at all. It is more like, the material that is produced is not working as an externally-facing product. Its intended purpose is to help internal discussion and to move things further along that will help our world be more cohesive. Foundations itself, too, doesn't have a say over when, what, and how external products are created and released. Perhaps this is a pitfall of the democratic process of creating something (when pulling teams together, when asking different rioters to agree on a lore point, etc). At the least, I hope this is some transparency into the whole thing.

Retillin4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Whren,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=ze8Xehvs,comment-id=000c0000000000010000000100020001,timestamp=2015-05-20T22:49:17.085+0000)

I apologize if my earlier comment made you feel this way; it is not the case at all. It is more like, the material that is produced is** not working as an externally-facing product**. Its intended purpose is **to help internal discussion and to move things further along **that will help our world be more cohesive. Foundations itself, too, doesn't have a say over when, what, and how external products are created and released. Perhaps this is a pitfall of the democratic process of creating something (when pulling teams together, when asking different rioters to agree on a lore point, etc). At the least, I hope this is some transparency into the whole thing.

That is a straight slap in the face. Basically you are saying "we have all this lore we are working on, but it's to set the world up for later events/champions/skins but we still have nothing to show the players".

Each and every time I am seeing an explanation/excuse for no lore being released it just helps to show how out of touch Riot is on the issue.

RiotWhren5 votes

Hey there Retillin -- speaking from my own personal perspective from within foundations, I don't have context on when or why/why not lore (products) release :( As a fan, do I wish there could be more, regular, episodic content, like the JoJ, too? Yep! That said, I do trust that the teams who build these external products know best what they want to do, too, and I believe there are awesome things down the line because of their hard work and efforts. I do know more lore is coming, and that we're not trying to sit on a stack of paper and not show it.

Daen9 votes

I believe there are awesome things down the line because of their hard work and efforts. I do know more lore is coming

To be fair, this is the same sort of comment we as a community have been hearing from Riot for literally four years or so. I don't mean to point you out specifically, of course, but this is kinda what got us here in the first place. :/

I know organizational problems are tricky and all, but it's still weird to look back over the last four years and see that not a whole lot has changed in regards to the story of League of Legends.

Jeddy0174 votes

You know,I've seen many red comments about more lore coming quite often. Now I don't know how to feel about that comment.I feel hope,I feel frustration,but most of all,I feel tired of seeing it.

Hellioning8 votes

I'm glad you trust them; I don't. I know for a fact that Riot is out of touch with the playerbase; see Riot's reactions to the Karma and Trundle updates, where a Rioter commented 'So we didn't know how much Karma's fans loved her fans...' and' We probably would have done the relaunch differently', respectively. Hell, for a more recent example, see red comments on Xerath's recently released story; Xelnath had to come in and tell Jaredan 'I think this is why Xerath's fans are upset.' Xelnath, someone who has nothing to do with narrative, knows more about Xerath's personality and what his fans like about him than the people in charge of making those sorts of changes.

Narrative has not earned my trust in regards to these matters.

Retillin5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot Whren,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=ze8Xehvs,comment-id=000c000000000001000000010002000100000000,timestamp=2015-05-20T23:30:38.306+0000)

Hey there Retillin -- speaking from my own personal perspective from within foundations, I don't have context on when or why/why not lore (products) release :( As a fan, do I wish there could be more, regular, episodic content, like the JoJ, too? Yep! That said,** I do trust that the teams who build these external products know best** what they want to do, too, and I believe there are awesome things down the line because of their hard work and efforts. I do know more lore is coming, and that we're not trying to sit on a stack of paper and not show it.

See, again you are showing the disconnect between what Riot believes and what Players believe. You say you trust them, I don't think the players on the boards do any more (and they have little reason to, to be honest). You also basically said "soonTM". That doesn't work after 3+ years of "soonTM" on so many project (Tribunal/Replays/ect...). I get it, you don't want to commit to something you are not sure will/might happen. But almost each and every single Rioter that tries to speak on this issue does not seem to understand WHY the boards are unhappy or they say "I wish it was better too!". That means either a lack of understanding, or agreement that Narrative has messed up.

The simple fact that the player base is unhappy with what has been put forward should be an indication that Riot might be wrong with their approach/belief.

And why is Narrative not the people coming to defend this stance? It would be like getting bad food (or lack of food) at McDonalds, and the manager refusing to come deal with the customer.

Basically, whomever green lite the Lore Recon needs to be sat down and briefed on all they have messed up on.

Cuix11 votes

Bio. Hey Bio. You're super great. Thanks for sticking through all of this.

Anyway, to address your actual post: I do understand, but that still means Riot has spent literally years choosing to not assign writers to general lore updates and story progression. The product system is totally fine, and may be workable for lore, but we have actual proof (years of silence/stillness) that Riot has not, is not, and is unlikely to consider the production of a product that is exclusively or even mostly lore-centric (see: JoJ).

Now, you may counter that the Freljord/Harrowing/Shurima events were largely lore-centric, but there are a few issues with that.

First and foremost, those events included the deleting of champions, or at least fundamentally replacing their personalities and stories. Trundle is the most dramatic example, but Skarner and Xerath have some major issues as well, while Cassiopeia is in an iffy spot.

Second, those events always coincided with a champion release, and it seems more realistic than cynical to suspect that champion/skin scheduling is what's actually important to Riot when they consider adding to their strings-and-tape lore.

Finally, all current lore updates are being made without significant fan consideration or involvement. When Riot makes big changes to Karma, Cassiopeia, even Udyr, and suddenly acts all astonished at fan backlash, the problem is that Riot is being excessively quiet and relying on shock reveals.

There has been proof since Season 1 that silence and opacity are actively harmful for Riot in many instances, especially lore and champion updates, while transparency and dialogue are always helpful. Did Riot not learn from Magma Chamber? The stealth rework? Does the staff even remember those nightmares?

Hellioning7 votes

Then why should I care?

If Riot's going to continue to use this product system, and they're not going to spend time and resources on lore that isn't 'well we have a new thing, so we need lore for it', why should I care about lore? All you guys are doing are treating it like a way to sell things, so why should I treat it as anything else?

RiotBioluminescence5 votes

{quoted}

Then why should I care?

If Riot's going to continue to use this product system, and they're not going to spend time and resources on lore that isn't 'well we have a new thing, so we need lore for it', why should I care about lore? All you guys are doing are treating it like a way to sell things, so why should I treat it as anything else?

Hey, Hellioning,

I realize my post was a wall of text, and written when I was a bit too tired to make clear points, but there are good things in there about lore.

I mentioned an "internal use only reference guide" product - something like what Nastra Dark described as a "Core Lore" - this is the foundation work that is going on, and the 'product' is style and story guides for most of the world. These being internal only sucks, of course, but it means that internal consistency should improve, and future lore shouldn't operate in a vacuum. (Often, someone important floats the idea that they get released as a player-facing thing - it's not been prioritized like that yet, mostly due to the fact that out of the 12 or so I think they're working on, only half are done - and I may be waaaay off on that estimate. It would feel more like a reference guide than a story, however.).

I also mentioned that I worked with artists who were assigned to a less product-oriented department - that department has been incubating all sorts of things for a long time now, but while they get the freedom to try many many things, they do not have a deadline to release a clear product - sort of the opposite of the 'product' system. It means that I personally have no vision on when anything they're working on will get published, or if it never will because it served its purpose internally. A few cinematics have come out of this department, and they are keen to tell stories in different ways.

Events can be lore delivery mechanisms, and are ways of continuing the story of a location or of characters, and those fit within the product system quite happily. Now, you could argue (and others in the comments here have) that the events are subpar, or that they break things they shouldn't do - and that would be a fair value judgement to give. Events are huge deals and take a long time - so iteration is slow. Much like ShadowStorm spurred a conversation about release stories, I could see a thread on what did and didn't go down well with events as an interesting topic. I don't agree with someone here who implied that having skins associated with an event cheapens the event, turning it into an advert - maybe I am too excitable as a human being, but when I get excited about something, I want to own a piece of it. Maybe that means 3d printing a Z-Drive for Ekko (I have done this) or making Bard cupcakes (I have done this) or maybe it means buying a ward skin for the Shurima event (I have done this). Value judgements on the Shurima event notwithstanding.

Lastly, this lack of lore-specific (non-event) products is becoming more and more of an issue internally, which is why I said there were conversations going on. Some people believed that the lore and story given out in champ launch stories, events, and the like was covering the narrative/story requirements (because they do contain some) and thus a dedicated product wasn't needed. Clear, pointed, disagreements, both within and without Riot (hello), are showing that that is not true, and that those forms of story are not sufficient. You could argue that it's been obvious forever that it wouldn't be enough - but when looking at everything that both Rioters and players want more of, and that we want to provide, it could have been quite reasonable to think that, just as players want more champions, players want more story - so ensure each new champion has a bit of story and go! Story based products are becoming more obviously needed, and that just like continual balancing is required to keep a healthy game, so too is a continually enriched Runeterra narrative required to keep a healthy world. It's a shift in how it is thought about.

tl;dr -

  • There's an extensive lore guide being worked on,
  • There's a team that doesn't follow the product system who create story too,
  • Events can be good story delivery mechanisms (there are improvements to make) and
  • The winds are shifting internally away from well intentioned misunderstanding about what lore needs.

I am really regretful that I wrote that so late at night, and I know that it did not answer the question given. I suck, and will come back to this to give my opinion on that. (And I can only give my opinion - I can't answer conclusively what I don't know.) I also wish I could answer every one of these replies individually, but I've bunched them into one answer. Sorry.

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