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Something Something Future VGUs

Skelenth··40 votes·3,108 views

So, now that we got a good look of new Swain, I wanna propose a slight change in direction for future VGUs, at the very least regarding the human champions: Keep the person the same. Don't just break the champion down into its smallest themes to create a new character with a similar fantasy and the same name. Most of the champions have such a low player base because their model is over five years old and their kit isn't very engaging. Sure. you changed that with the recent reworks and I loved them, but you also change things that don't need any changing. https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/leagueoflegends/images/d/d1/Swain_OriginalSkin.jpg http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/vsbattles/images/7/7b/Swain_Splash_0-11.jpg Compare. They're not the same people. They hardly even resemble each other. New Swain could've totally worked out with old Swains body, face and hair, instead of some kind of chiseled Lucius Malfoy. Take Taric for example. He still resembles old Taric, but with less armor and a lot more investment in hair conditioner. Perhaps the issue lies in the fact that Swain got a new Splash Art that made his looks work totally fine in the current game. Most people probably wouldn't bat an eye of the transition were from this http://lolwp.com/wp-content/uploads/Swain_Base.jpg to new Swainfoy.

I'm not saying "Undo your rework. I don't like it.", but keep your original designs in mind when updating the next champions.

######Inb4, Gragas rework will have better abs than Varus

45 Comments

Sherogarth12 votes

More Warwick, less Galio. Simple.

Whyte Lyon3 votes

Both types are welcomed and equally encouraged in my books.

Malicious Metal3 votes

To build off that.

Warwick already had a clearly defined champion identity and Riot just pushed it to the maximum.

Galio was a confused character, as was Swain, and thus needed to be better fleshed out and in the process needed to lose some of the many conflicting champion identity traits.

Whyte Lyon1 votes

And yet a few continue to think updates more like Galio's is because Riot doesn't care about its fans. And that narrow-minded opinion is fine in small doses, but gets real concerning when more than enough unironically agree.

Quepha11 votes

"At least do better next time" is an attitude that simply doesn't work. Players have asked for that several times, Riot has promised it several times, and then Riot proceeds to completely fail to follow through on their promise.

Linna Excel11 votes

The new version might be better technically, but it doesn't look like swain to me nor does it make me want to play him.

At this point, with a few exceptions like WW, it seems like reworks are riots way to murder champions and make new ones in such a way they wouldn't have to give out refunds. Riot just don't like their older champions. If riot straight up deleted Swain and announced Anime Palpatine more people would get upset and a lot of players would be more cautious about buying skins. But by secretly replacing Swain with Anime Palpatine, only about a third of swain fans would really take notice.

But let's be honest, who really cares about the fans of some other champ they never really played?

That's why it works. Deleting champs straight up and everyone notices. Bait and switch via a rework and only a tiny fraction of the whales take notice.

Fasmodey10 votes

I am just not a big fan of Riot's doing excessive number of long hair male champions.

Riot, let me remind you, long hair is not that common in our world. It is not fine either if if it is just more common in Runeterra because our last actual short hair male champion is Darius.

Like wtf... Did Swain really need long hair? Did we need second Vladimir in the SAME REGION?

Stop your long hair trend, it started to be annoying.

SteamBuster11 votes

Rakan has longish hair, but it would be a pretty normal length for people in our world. Jhin doesn't have hair showing. Ekko has long hair, but it's more of a punk styled mohawk that fits his character well. Braum's bald. Lucian has his hair in braids, which, again, is not unusual for people in our world. Zed doesn't have any hair showing. Jayce has a crew cut.

So that leaves Swain, Kayn, Yasuo as the only human male champions with long hair that don't do much for their character besides some flavor. If you want to count other VGU'd champions, none of them got updated to have long hair except Swain. I personally think you're overlooking information to fit your "riot likes long hair" narrative. Please do some research before you make wild accusations at Riot.

Fasmodey5 votes

I like how you create execuses to long hair characters.

"Rakan have long hair but it is pretty normal length in our world"

Really? Being normal definitely neutralizes the fact he has long/longish hair.

"Ekko has long hair but it fits the character well"

xd lmao I am not even commenting there.

Braum is bald. Yes? So why do you include them? He doesn't even have hair. It is not a proof against riot loving long hair.

Lucian have long hair. If you think he doesn't, have an eye doctor.

Jayce is what I missed, still, he is an old champion.

SteamBuster6 votes

Ekko would not be the same if he had short hair. Rakan has long hair, but it's not so long that it would be out of place in our world. He has Keanu Reeves length hair, which, while long, is pretty normal in our world. The long hair champs you're talking about have Fabio length hair.

Fasmodey3 votes

My point is, which you can see in my original post, our last actual short hair champion is Jayce (I thought it was Darius, thanks for reminding. Though they are released closely, as in the past champion releases were faster, it is not significant.)

Long, longish, stylish. Doesn't matter. They are using long hair and want to make it distinct from other releases. It still doesn't change the fact long hair is overshadowing short hair a lot, it started to be annoying.

SteamBuster6 votes

{quoted}

My point is, which you can see in my original post, our last actual short hair champion is Jayce (I thought it was Darius, thanks for reminding. Though they are released closely, as in the past champion releases were faster, it is not significant.)

Long, longish, stylish. Doesn't matter. They are using long hair and want to make it distinct from other releases. It still doesn't change the fact long hair is overshadowing short hair a lot, it started to be annoying.

That's fair, but Riot doesn't have any obligation to pander to your hair preferences.

Eternal7913 votes

I like how you act like it really matters whether champions have long or short hair. I mean it really doesn't beyond personal preference for hair styles.

Chromatic Eagle6 votes

A fictional world doesn't have to be an exact copy of our world, so why shouldn't they have lots of long haired people?

Lord Phazanor 2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chromatic Eagle,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=v5t3bFkc,comment-id=00010001,timestamp=2018-01-25T17:37:50.893+0000)

A fictional world doesn't have to be an exact copy of our world, so why shouldn't they have lots of long haired people?

TBH, most of our rules seem to apply in Runeterra. I'm talking fighting schools and physics laws. I think a fighter in Runeterra has as many reasons a fighter on Earth in medieval times would have to keep his hair trimmed. Unless someone crafted a spell that prevented long hair from getting on your eyes/being grabbed by your enemy/getting stuck in your armor/etc...
And Swain being ultra practical doesn't lend itself to having long hair.
Edit: Now I'm stuck with the image of Swain getting a new hairdo on those hairdresser chairs. :p

Chromatic Eagle3 votes

But if that's the case, why have a cape? Why do people want him to have a cane while fighting? What's the line between realism, and fantasy visuals?

Julanus2 votes

It's not even a cape. It's a big, heavy coat draped over his shoulders.

Lord Phazanor 1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chromatic Eagle,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=v5t3bFkc,comment-id=0001000100000000,timestamp=2018-01-25T20:23:39.530+0000)

But if that's the case, why have a cape? Why do people want him to have a cane while fighting? What's the line between realism, and fantasy visuals?

You don't see what I mean: in the military, everyone has short hair. It's both practical and conveys authority. Even the guys that never actually fight have short hair. I guess it's just symbolic. Sure, his cape probably is a hindrance and physical fight with a cane might be difficult if you're crippled, but remember he doesn't do physical fights, he zaps people to death, sucks their soul and/or sends his crows to eat them.
IMHO he coud totally use a cane (it could even serve as a magic staff).
But that's just a matter of opinion, I can see why some people aren't bothered, but as someone who hates change for the sake of change, these reworks almost always leave me with a bittersweet taste. Some exceptions for me were Ww and Taric.

Chromatic Eagle2 votes

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of the hair either, but that point doesn't make much sense to me. If a cane or cape doesn't bother you because he fights at range, then having long hair shouldn't either.

Lord Phazanor 1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Chromatic Eagle,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=v5t3bFkc,comment-id=000100010000000000010000,timestamp=2018-01-27T23:12:55.844+0000)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of the hair either, but that point doesn't make much sense to me. If a cane or cape doesn't bother you because he fights at range, then having long hair shouldn't either.

I just wrote exactly why his long hair bothers me but having his jacket or a cane doesn't.

WOOOOOOOOHOOOOOO8 votes

Changing things to change them is kinda Riot’s modus operandi. I don’t know what more can be said, but I enjoy that Riot is willing to tackle champions from a new angle and grow them in different ways.

Hige7 votes

Funny enough I understand why they changed him, Tryndamere himself stated that Swain was a thematic mess and I agree, he was all over the place, he had a perch for his raven, a cane, a limp, he had a different demon form that was in itself a mess, he was wearing gold and green, his hair was 3 stripes for no reason and so on and so forth...

I also admire Riot's ability to make it look as good as he did on his splash art even though the guy would have been a pain to get a fitting pose for that showed both his personality and all of his little extra tidbits (cane, raven, demon, warlock, general, noxus... geez)

My biggest gripe against the new design is that they made Swain independant of his cunning, I've said it countless times, Swain looking fragile was the only reason why his cunning was a big part of his character... the best way I have to explain it is using game of thrones references:

Currently he's demeanor is like Tywin lannister's (with long hair) very straight forward and evil only when provoked, that's awesome, it really is but it's not how swain was portrayed in the lore before... Swain was more akin to Little Finger, someone who wasn't particularly a warrior but whose intellect enabled him to rise up in the chaos ladder, Swain happens to be a warlock too but his time using magic has to be limited probably because of his age

He4rtkiller6 votes

Agree. New Swain doesn't feel or look anything like the old Swain and I think this is not a good way to approach future reworks. It feels like they removed Swain and introduced a brand new champion with the same name.

ScubaVampire4 votes

In a world with dragons, demons, talking animal hybrids, talking animals, trees that are sentient, giant alien snake monsters, and an evil rat with a blow dart.... Are we really going to get upset over a guy with long hair set in a fantastical, fiction time period somewhere between medieval times and the early 20th century??? Riot asks for players advice and tries to please us more than any other video game company that I know of. Let's appreciate the effort to update an old character WHOM they are not making a huge profit on because majority of players probably already own him.

Skelenth33 votes

No. People complain about losing a fine character in exchange for a different character. This is not about the hair alone. It just isn't Swain. VGUs were supposed to bring outdated champions to current standards. Replacing the character misses the point, as it might as well just be a new champion alltogether.

ScubaVampire7 votes

I would have to disagree about losing the character all together. He's still what he was: Noxian leader, warlock, ravens, etc. Sure he looks different and I don't doubt that to many, they liked the old, ugly concept. It gave him a niche but I'd argue Noxians wouldnt follow an old man with a cane even if he did go full bird form. Strength needs to be seen right away and I believe it has.

As far as game play goes, I've played the new swain and it's amazing!!! Plus it feels like the old swain! The constant roots and CC remind me of how swain on live plays. Wanting to stay close to the enemy to suck the life out of them is still there. To me, swain now has the best parts of the old swain with a much more interesting and intriguing kit.

These VGUs have been widely accepted and loved. Warwick is undisputed as one of the best and they keep getting more praise. Riot from a business standpoint wouldn't completely "ruin" a character if the majority didn't approve. That's not good business practices. Again, I'll point out. Riot takes our opinions into account far better than any other company (of course, I'll preference with "that I know of")

ChompyWulf3 votes

Too bad you are a clear minority and a vast majority of the community is pissed with how they changed Swain.

And you're a dumbass if you think a society which prizes strength cares about appearance. This is Noxus, not Sparta.

Keepe3 votes

I wouldn't claim that there's a vast majority just yet. There is usually a silent majority. At the moment, you're speaking as a vocal faction in a thread that is more likely to garner the attention of those seeking an echo chamber of "This. Isn't. Swain." as opposed to those who don't care or are fine with the rework.

Don't misunderstand me, I am on the boat of "So... the new Vlad is cool, but I thought we were getting a Swain rework?", but don't be overly presumptuous and let people have their opinions.

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

SirButtplug2 votes

"These VGUs have been widely accepted and loved." Best joke I've heard all day. If Riot actually cared we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place now would we

Whyte Lyon3 votes

Would a rehash of old Swain make the "its just not the same" people happier? Im going to assume the obvious but disheartening answer is yes.

Linna Excel9 votes

The problem with reworks in general is riot wants a completely different character with maybe 1-2 winks at the original.

SirButtplug2 votes

The design team clearly was more interested in creating a LotR Harry Potter ripoff than Swain

HomDon7 votes

Agreed. He isn't Swain. Where is Beatrice who you used to see every time you pressed Q? Why doesn't he transform into mutant demon bird and blast birds everywhere in his Ult?

Give us Swain back in a classic skin at the very least.

https://imgur.com/a/cHd9O#34BpEfZ

#SaveSwain

Stars Shaper4 votes

I honestly feel like the new Swain is a more solid character in terms of look and lore.

Skelenth4 votes

I'm not saying he isn't. Swainfoy is a great character of his own right. But he's just that - a different character.

Swains VGUs has brought something into the mix that wasn't as important before: A face. And, well a human body. Only very few of the modern VGUs from Sion onward were humans. And those that most closely resembled or were one (Sion, Yorick, Urgot, Taric) still had their release Splash Art, which usually were low quality and low on personality. There are different focal points when looking at human characters and non-humane, the face being one. Taric actually kept most of his looks in the new rework, at least that which was visible in his old Splash Art. Urgot and Yorick actually got a face to begin with.

The basic issue I have here is that Swain had a face - and body -, and they not only changed it, but seemingly went way into the far other end of the spectrum to the point old and new don't resemble each other at all. It seems the VGU team only wrote down a few themes and made a new character with them, rather than updating an existing character with focus on these themes.

Stars Shaper3 votes

I think comparing him with Taric is a good thing.

I haven't been interested in Swain overall so I didn't get captivated by his lore if not for some bits here and there when Sion was re-released but I think that the old Swain had not really space in LoL as old Taric did. I've read a post from Reav3 which explains this better: https://www.reddit.com/r/SwainMains/comments/7sxo23/in_response_to_reav3rant/dt8lwr4/

And as Taric wasn't really going to keep his Gems obsession (if not for his joke which had become a meme so popular you coouldn't really delete), Jericho wasn't due to stay the old gramps ala Gargamel but had to display a powerful figure even in him being somehow crippled.

PhoenixOfHeaven3 votes

In full honesty, their eyes look the same. The eyes, and eyebrows. So it's a start?

XPu55yD3s0lat0rX3 votes

I wish he kept the cane. The cane does feel rather aristocrat ish

Whyte Lyon2 votes

Man's not an aristocrat, he's a soldier.

Weiss Guertena3 votes

Maybe we could strike a compromise. Like, go with the vision you intend for the champion but give a little something to the old fans. Like, a 975 RP quality skin resembling the old character. Let's call it a "Traditional" skin as a nod to the champions origins.

Seriously, bring those back. The excuse you gave for discontinuing them has more holes than a chunk of Swiss cheese used as a target on a shooting range. "We have learned better, if the team we have now was working on old updates Karma would still have her fans and Trundle would envision the Leper Jesus fantasy" (more or less an actual quite from Riot). Well tell that to Galio and Swain who barely, if at all resemble what they used to be. So allow me to translate that quote: "We simply don't give enough fucks for players playing a champion for years to hand out a single free cosmetic item of mediocre quality to them".

Modl Ryden l3 votes

I really feel like of all the reworked champions, this one is the most dramatic changes made to the champion.

I recall a lot of the reworks starting off very small as incremental and modernized VGUs which included MasterYi Kassadin Cassiopeia Katarina Nasus Ashe Shen Sona Soraka Tristana Trundle Garen

They all retain more or less the same kit, about an 80% similarity overall, with an upgraded aesthetic.

Then they took a to a new level reworking and remodeling Sion Poppy Ryze

Which really made them a lot more pleasant to look at from the get go, gave them more weight to their abilties, introduced a few extras, all while retaining a lot of their old look and feel attached to their name.

Then they really went next level with Warwick Urgot Galio Gangplank I want to say with these they really excelled in breathing new life into problematic/linear champs. However they sort of straddle the line of being their original character and being a new one all together. A lot of their old aesthetics and background were trashed. While some of their abilities still pay homage to their past ones that made them iconic in the first place, they've been given a new identity with their new gameplay mechanics. ex: Gangplank No longer are you annoyed with GP critting you with point-click Q, you're now annoyed with GP barrelling your adc/supp's hp to 20%. ex: Galio No longer are you expecting a flash-taunt from Galio for a teamwipe -although that is still possible, but it doesn't nuke as hard as it used to- you're not expecting a savior ulti, much like Shen ex: Urgot No longer are you expecting to get suppressed and needing to buy QSS, you're hoping that people can peel you out before getting reeled in. ex: Warwick No longer do you shrug off the fact that WW has his W left toggled on, you now expect that he will be hunting you when you see the crest above your head.

But with the upcoming Swain rework a lot of the feel from his old model is missing. It feels as though the bird form/morph is no longer their. Sure he grows wings but it just seems so... weebish. To me its like Swain is SO good at playing at an MMORPG that his character got premium cosmetic wings for his ultimate.

His kit as well don't really retain much of the feel as his current kit as it is mostly DoT damage. The rework makes him resemble a bit of a fighter/battle mage much like vladmir.

Blakiepug3 votes

This is exactly how I feel as well, and I'm glad more players are taking note of it the more it continues to happen. Maybe all the Swain players now know how I, as well as many other Galio players, felt when he was practically removed from the game last Spring. I know there are several players out there who love reworks and VGU's which is fine. But all I ask is that the teams working on the VGUs be more respectful of the champion they are reworking. This is why I have tremendous respect for the teams that worked on Warwick and Urgo. As you say OP, this new character looks nothing like Swain and even if you were to tell me it was a rework instead of a new champ, I probably would have guessed it was a Vladimir rework first. I would really like to see rework teams taking into consideration what makes the champion they are working on really pop as they are in their current form. This feels like they looked at Swain, saw nothing of value, and decided to just create an entirely new character.

Recuro2 votes

I'm starting to lose faith in these VGUs simply because of riots philosophy of "reimagining" characters. I've liked almost all reworks until Galio happened and completely destroyed the champ.

Although Swain is great in a lot of ways, (kit and VO are both great) things like the long hair and the lack of bird form show that riot is more interested in their new character than the one that's been around for years.

Riot's new "pain vs gain" idea is basically admitting that they don't care about trashing old stuff if it means they can make something new.

In my opinion a rework should improve what's already there, not reimagine the champ. Warwick was a perfect example of making something fresh but familiar. This way new players are drawn to the champ without upsetting the old fans.

Riot, if you want to make something new and innovative, go make new champions. Don't let reworks become an excuse to delete champions.

Vistha D Reptile1 votes

OP, please. This shit has been going on for years dating back to Skarma release in 2013 at least. They aren't going to stop now.

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