I just realized something about Demacia and Noxus

For Carthage·May 24, 2015·74 votes·6,906 views

In every single lore account, Demacia has outnumbered Noxus. Last update on this with Sion's update was that a single battle saw Demacia outnumber Noxus ten to one.

The only possible way this could be the case with how big both countries are - that one would outnumber the other so substantially - would be that Demacia runs a military draft. Noxus' army consists of trained, elite warriors because theirs is a volunteer army and is filled with people who actually want to fight for their country.

Even facing destruction from an enemy as massive as Demacia, Noxus continues to hold out and maintain a volunteer army versus forcing people to fight.

I don't know if this was intentional, but I enjoy this kind of moral ambiguity. Having any one side be a saint and the other the goddamn devil is what children's tales are made of, not good storytelling.

80 Comments

NarasimhaMay 24, 201547 votes

No one has EVER complained that either side is pure, good or evil.

Demacia is a paragon of justice, but it's also blind justice. No excuses, no reasons, all are judged equally under the law. Its a double edged sword, so to speak.

Noxus is the embodiment of "Might makes right.", but it also doesn't care who you are so long as you have that strength. A kid from the slums has just as much chance of becoming a great general as a nobleman does.

XulsigaeMay 24, 20158 votes

But rarely to the point that some seem to make them out to be. Demacia doesn't kill people for any infraction and Noxus has a sort of nobility going on which isn't quite meritocratic.

NarasimhaMay 24, 20157 votes

Well yeah, I said blind justice, not stupid justice. They're not going to execute a kid for stealing food because he was starving. But they won't forgive him for stealing because he was hungry either.

For Noxus, I suspect the nobility has more to do with money than power, but without more concrete information, its just conjecture.

XulsigaeMay 24, 20151 votes

What's the difference between blind and stupid justice?

NarasimhaMay 24, 20155 votes

Blind justice would be judging everyone equally regardless of who they are or what they did, the closest to 'true' justice. 'Stupid' justice would be judging everyone equally under a very absurd set of laws. Still technically 'justice', but in a very messed up way. For example, executing a kid because he stole some food.

DreamspitterMay 27, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Blind justice would be judging everyone equally regardless of who they are or what they did, the closest to 'true' justice. 'Stupid' justice would be judging everyone equally under a very absurd set of laws. Still technically 'justice', but in a very messed up way. For example, executing a kid because he stole some food.

#"I AM THE SCALES OF JUSTICE, CONDUCTOR OF THE CHOIR OF DEATH IN THE NAME OF DEMACIA!"

That's what we need to balance demacia out.

Unyielding "justice".

Rinky DinkyMay 24, 20156 votes

Noxus also has a huge power struggle going on within itself.

You have the side you just mentioned, those who respect anyone whom has the strength, and the side that currently has control, which is simply corrupt nobility.

Sadly, I could get into who is one what side and more into the power struggle, but with the retcon, it will probably all change anyways.

Something that makes me think that is Sion's new VU, in which he trash talks swain, who if we go by the old lore, is a member of the black rose whom is currently trying to restore Noxus to it's non-corrupt state of the past. The black rose is also responsible for re-animating Sion for the second time.

ZENEESERMay 24, 20159 votes

I've always thought. Hey they made a monster like Urgot . But they made him that monster after Garen Cut him in half.

SgtCrispyMay 24, 201515 votes

It's not as if Garen just saw Urgot on the street and did it, he did it while Urgot was trying to execute his prince.

Rew711May 24, 20153 votes

Lets not forget that Noxus has Katarina who is a trained assassin who wants to show her worth in battle and tried to kill JarvanIV and fell for Garen who isn't just a brawny guy. Then there's Leblanc who's apart of a cult with Swain and some third person. And then the last one is Kat's sister, Cassiopeia who turned into a snake hybrid, unleashed Xerath and a crazy Renekton , and almost killing Sivir all for greed.

RockabananzaMay 25, 20151 votes

The "third person" is Talon. I don't agree with the wording you used, but there's some information.

Kosm1KMay 25, 20151 votes

I didn't think talon was a part of the black rose?

Phun9837May 25, 20155 votes

[deleted]

Mecha MaIphiteMay 25, 20151 votes

And Elise too, but she isn't Noxian.

supes the lostMay 26, 20151 votes

oh yeah, thats right, Elise is a member of the black rose

DestínumMay 26, 20152 votes

She probably is Noxian to begin with though. She's just been around for a long time and doesn't really care about her country anymore.

Not KatarinaMay 26, 20151 votes

You sure? I feel as if they're referencing Darkwill. He was the 3rd man in the reworked Sion reveal trailer, and he is a member of the Black Rose.

SolaxoMay 24, 20154 votes

{quoted}

No one has EVER complained that either side is pure, good or evil.

Demacia is a paragon of justice, but it's also blind justice. No excuses, no reasons, all are judged equally under the law. Its a double edge sword, so to speak.

Noxus is the embodiment of "Might makes right.", but it also doesn't care who you are so long as you have that strength. A kid from the slums has just as much chance of becoming a great general as a nobleman does.

I don't remember Demacia using chemical attacks against civilian population (Ionia)

NarasimhaMay 24, 20153 votes

"All is fair in love and war."

CarrierKestralMay 25, 20155 votes

Do not judge a man at war by the standards of peace.

allthemuslimsMay 25, 20152 votes

Just a quick question, has any relevant world power since Sparta successfully developed a system where being the best person will bring you as far as possible, no matter your background?

NarasimhaMay 25, 20151 votes

I'm not a history buff, but I do believe China had a very successful merit based system. That's...probably before Sparta though. I kind of want to say USSR, since it did allow Stalin to become a ruler despite being born to a very low end family.

SpecterVonBarenMay 25, 20154 votes

That would require Stalin to be a good leader and not just the last man standing in a game of mafia.

kitcat300May 24, 201514 votes

Both countries do have a draft

Demacia - Source Every Demacian citizen is required to serve in its military for no less than three years. Even after this time, most Demacians remain on active status in the nations military reserve.

Noxus - Source Military service in Noxus is compulsory for a period of six years, with all of its citizens retained as active reservists until their golden years. The Noxian High Command reserves the right to draft any of its citizens, regardless of age, into military service in times of dire need. Active Noxian military personnel are afforded a higher level of citizenship in Noxian society, and it is not uncommon for most citizens to remain active in the military for ten or more years.

Darrosh JewfistMay 25, 20151 votes

I'm actually interested in military benefits from being conscripted into these armies. It's not uncommon in old feudal type armies that peasants were not paid, but rather exempted from taxes for serving (specifically their town, depending on contribution of soldiers) with some pocket change pay. In addition, are the arms provided by the state or do the soldiers equip themselves? Typical feudal peasant levies would definitely buy their own material but given the vast militarization of these two city-states it makes more sense for the state to assume responsibilities of equipment and supply.

I also understand that Roman legionnaires were allowed to capture slaves and auction them off for a nice profit, so they receive discharge paid (accumulated over time depending how long their serve + whatever loot and plunder) which made retired soldiers fairly wealthy.

XulsigaeMay 24, 20157 votes

I'd argue that even if Noxus is a volunteer force, that doesn't make it a 'good' army. Considering the poverty and harsh conditions of life in Noxus, and the focus on violence for rising in society, joining the military might be the only way out for many rather than a sense of patriotism. They also don't suffer cowards which tends to reduce numbers.

Only Play DariusMay 24, 20153 votes

{quoted}

focus on violence for rising in society

That's why Vladimir was exiled from Noxus for killing two kids his age, right? It shows his strength, something's not adding up.

Meep ManMay 24, 201518 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=qKcfnEzo,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2015-05-24T05:33:37.517+0000)

That's why was exiled from Noxus for killing two kids his age, right? It shows his strength, something's not adding up.

Murder is still murder, especially if you get caught. If you could just murder people at random, there would be no society or country to fight for.

ChilroyMay 24, 20156 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jelly Mac,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=qKcfnEzo,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2015-05-24T05:33:37.517+0000)

That's why was exiled from Noxus for killing two kids his age, right? It shows his strength, something's not adding up.

Murdering two children isn't an act of strength, it's an act of senselessness. Noxians care for other Noxians, but if you're unable to fight your own battles - you might as well be dead. Leeches/ne'er dowells will live in the gutter, merits shine in Noxus.

Have you ever seen a Demacian who came from nothing? Quinn even had a reasonable childhood. Darius, Draven, Talon, Riven, Swain, Vladimir, and heck even Sion when he was alive. Noxus has shit ton of upward mobility, these orphans and nobodies are shaping history.

Demacia's Shyvana and Xin are foreigners considered prizes taken by House Lightshield (Jarvan's House). Read Lux's judgement if you want to understand the forced military training, from age 13. Demacia's nobility is the only people who matter, most Demacians champs are noble (besides Lucian, who isn't well-known, having no history about his Demacian roots).

Noxus Forever Strong! Darius Swain Katarina Talon Riven Draven Cassiopeia

Larcis CaasckMay 24, 20153 votes

[deleted]

Darrosh JewfistMay 25, 20152 votes

Quinn's story might be a nod towards the American frontiersman lifestyle - the whole idea of having a rural self-sufficient, deterministic background in the wilds being superior to the hustle/bustle city folk.

It would make sense that Quinn's upbringing in rural borderlands, presumably with less attachment to centralized authority and pop. density along with wilderness, probably bandits, raiders, general animals trying to death-maul her that Quinn would develop a good set of skills for being a ranger/scout.

BlackwindyMay 24, 20152 votes

Sion item 3070

Chromatic EagleMay 24, 20157 votes

There's no reason to patronize good vs. evil, or children's tales, and grey vs. grey just to be edgy results in poor story telling as well.

lightdragoon88May 24, 20154 votes

[{quoted}](name=For Carthage,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=qKcfnEzo,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-05-24T03:57:17.187+0000)

In every single lore account, Demacia has outnumbered Noxus. Last update on this with Sion's update was that a single battle saw Demacia outnumber Noxus ten to one.

The only possible way this could be the case with how big both countries are - that one would outnumber the other so substantially - would be that Demacia runs a military draft.

Ummm...yeah....they mention that in Lux's lore.

But Noxus isn't outnumber cause their army is volunteer, but because they kill anyone who is not useful.

In other words: Demacia is Quantity, while Noxus is Quality

For CarthageMay 24, 20152 votes

The lore's been scrapped, so I'd push Noxus just being volunteer.

You can't rule a kingdom if you have no people at all, and who would tend the fields besides if you just killed all non-warriors?

lightdragoon88May 24, 20153 votes

Summoners and the League has been scrapped, the towns and their stories are still canon.

And I didn't say non-warriors, I said all who are not useful.

ChaoticPineconeMay 24, 20152 votes

they mention recruitment, not a draft. theres a difference.

GreenLoreMay 24, 20153 votes

I think this is more because Noxian soldiers die more often. Noxus has no problem with killing their own soldiers if they are in the way,heck darius got his rank by killing his commander.

Not to mention that it is still canon that Noxus invaded Ionia.Sure they had support from Zaun,but they still suffered a lot of losses in there(especially when they dropped chemical weapons on their own soldiers just to kill the enemies)

Ironclad DragonMay 24, 20152 votes

Noxus is a Social Darwinist state, so the people who do live there HAVE to be sharp. Except for the nobility... I don't know. Just throwing things out there.

5000000000000000May 24, 20151 votes

What nobility? The high commander of Noxus was overthrown by Swain, and the three members of the Black Rose are LeBlanc, Swain, and Vladimir, which are all powerful mages. I don't remember anything about Noxian nobility, but I might be overlooking something.

Ironclad DragonMay 24, 20154 votes

Katarina Cassiopeia are both of noble birth. Darius seeks to take down the Noxian aristocracy.

5000000000000000May 24, 20151 votes

Ah, right. I suppose you're right. DuCouteau family seems to be "sharp" enough, though. Maybe nobility is also people powerful enough to rise above others?

XulsigaeMay 24, 20152 votes

That would imply that their children get a leg up in life and owe some of their power to birth rather than having to earn it entirely. As hard as Kat worked to hone her skills, she would still have the benefit of her father.

Ariel the CruelMay 24, 20151 votes

I would imagine being borne to a top-tier assassin (example!) would give you a leg-up over someone who was borne in the gutter.

Upbringing has a lot to do with outcome.

NarasimhaMay 25, 20151 votes

I wouldn't say that holds true. After all, there's Talon, who is just as if not more skilled than Katarina.

The Tilted KingMay 27, 20151 votes

I do believe it was Katarina, Talon, and katarinas father who were held as the "deadliest blade masters.... in all of Valoran... bound to the du couteau family"

so I don really think its true either, Katarina was born as nobility and Talon was stealing food when he was a kid to survive. and Talon and Kat are peers (and I would assume rivals)

NarasimhaMay 27, 20151 votes

Do note that it is Kat herself who makes that claim, so its probably more than a bit tinged with bias and pride. Also, I don't think Talon would be rivals with Kat. He owes his life to her father, and by extension to her. I kind of see him as that one super bad ass servant every noble family has. He manages the gardens, makes sure everything's in order, kills the family's enemies, ensures the finances are in check, etc, etc.

ChilroyMay 24, 20151 votes

{quoted}

are both of noble birth. seeks to take down the Noxian aristocracy.

Darius is against the Noxian aristocracy that would have Noxus commit cowardice, which is hardly the Du Couteau way. The Du Couteau are probably the only remaining aristocrats with governmental influence.

Troy242621May 24, 20151 votes

To be fair, from what we know from the lore, the Du Couteau are incredibly powerful in their own right in addition to their sphere of influence. Katarina is a champion, and Talon became one (After being bested by the family incidentally).

The Tilted KingMay 27, 20151 votes

Talon became a champion after he tried to assassinate Katarinas father. He spared Talons life and trained him, then made him his right hand.