So i know that a golden kraken is presumably the highest form of currency in bilgewater. As well as that "gears" is commonly used in piltover (as i've half-assedly deduced through "the vastayan journal"). Now the question is if any of you have heard or read anything lore-wise that has been established as money in cities, Whether it be demacia or noxus or the bloody kumungu. Thanks
RiotBioluminescence7 votesSo far, player facing, I think we've established:
Piltover/Zaun: Gold hexes, silver gears, and bronze washers. Bilgewater: Golden krakens and silver serpents.
There was also a coin mentioned in the Rek'Sai teaser diary from Noxus, but I think we might see about tweaking the name of that a little bit.
There are other types of currencies, but those are the ones that I know of being player facing so far. Also the 'cogs' thing is a slang term for money - as Helixarrow says, it's like saying 'cash'.
Spideraxe2 votesWould Zaun/Piltover ever get to the point of being able to use cryptocurrency since they are so advanced [vlad-salute]
patmax171 votesHi Bio!
Can I ask you something I've been wondering for a while now? You are the go-to rioter when one has question about tiny setting detail, and I must admit, I'm impressed by the amount of information you are able to put out. I was wondering, do you keep all these bits of information in your heart, or do you have them noted down somewhere? Just curious xD
Keep it up! :D
RiotBioluminescence2 votesHi Bio!
Can I ask you something I've been wondering for a while now? You are the go-to rioter when one has question about tiny setting detail, and I must admit, I'm impressed by the amount of information you are able to put out. I was wondering, do you keep all these bits of information in your heart, or do you have them noted down somewhere? Just curious xD
Keep it up! :D
The vast majority I can get from memory - it's a pretty handy quirk that the other Rioters find useful in meetings sometimes! :) They'll ask if a fact or story is player facing, or what players currently know or even are theorizing about a subject, I'll go glassy eyed for a moment like some kind of weird lore robot, and then I'll be able to fairly reliably give an answer.
Then, of course, I'll get paranoid and go check to make sure I wasn't wrong :) I've made a lot of my own notes and organized information where it's been useful to me, but sometimes you just need to go rooting around everywhere and ask the other Rioter experts!
(For example - the recent question about Baccai - I know what the Baccai are, but I couldn't remember exactly where we had released that info to you guys. So I asked a bunch of other knowledgeable Rioters and they pointed out the loading screen tip. The loading tips are a bit of a blindspot for me - I read them, but have trouble remembering that that's the source of a factoid.)
patmax172 votesHahah, I know the feel of being the one that knows about something xD (and I also know the feeling of needing to look up if I said something wrong :P)
ModThe Djinn3 votes{quoted}Piltover/Zaun: Gold hexes, silver gears, and bronze washers.
...those poor, poor artificers and store owners.
Heimerdinger: Yes hello. Two dozen 1/4" washers and six X-765v snaggle-tooth gears, posthaste. Shopkeep: Certainly. Two gears and six washers. Heimerdinger: What? Nonsense and bother! Two dozen washers and six gears. Shopkeep: I heard you, sir. Two gears and six washers...
RiotBioluminescence4 votes[{quoted}](name=The Djinn,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=jdmtxE6M,comment-id=00010002,timestamp=2018-06-07T15:00:35.008+0000)
...those poor, poor artificers and store owners.
Heimerdinger: Yes hello. Two dozen 1/4" washers and six X-765v snaggle-tooth gears, posthaste. Shopkeep: Certainly. Two gears and six washers. Heimerdinger: What? Nonsense and bother! Two dozen washers and six gears. Shopkeep: I heard you, sir. Two gears and six washers...
May I introduce you to the (now very old) comedy sketch from The Two Ronnies that feels very appropriate for this. The accents might give you trouble, and the video quality is terrible, but it's charming old-school funny.
ModThe Djinn2 votesMay I introduce you to the (now very old) comedy sketch from The Two Ronnies that feels very appropriate for this. The accents might give you trouble, and the video quality is terrible, but it's charming old-school funny.
I love The Two Ronnies, actually! So thanks very much for this. Old British comedy is a favorite of mine. :)
Ifneth3 votesSo far, player facing, I think we've established:
Piltover/Zaun: Gold hexes, silver gears, and bronze washers. Bilgewater: Golden krakens and silver serpents.
There was also a coin mentioned in the Rek'Sai teaser diary from Noxus, but I think we might see about tweaking the name of that a little bit.
There are other types of currencies, but those are the ones that I know of being player facing so far. Also the 'cogs' thing is a slang term for money - as Helixarrow says, it's like saying 'cash'.
I wonder: what do they use in Shurima? Does each city in that frayed land have its own currency, or have they agreed on a standard? The names of the pieces would have to be short or abbreviated to accommodate the haggling that accompanies any transaction in the region.
“How much is a kebab?”
Shopkeeper: “Two birds.”
“Two? One and three drops.”
Shopkeeper: “One-seven!”
“One-four.”
Shopkeeper: “One-five, ten rocks. You ruin me!”
“Deal.”
Here, Golden Falcons recovered from the ancient Shuriman empire are abbreviated “birds” and worth ten Silver Raindrops, which are abbreviated “drops” and worth ten Bronze Boulders, which are abbreviated “rocks”. To avoid wasting time and breath repeating the names, it is haggling etiquette to say them once for clarity and then refer to them only by amount.
RiotBioluminescence5 votesYou. I like you.
There have definitely been some work gone into how the currencies of various regions, including Shurima, have evolved over the years/decades/centuries, how people refer to them, the kind of lifestyle you could live with certain types of work, and how you'd be paid, etc. Even counting systems and belief systems come into play. Some groups of people don't use money, while others are, it is proposed, (everything is 'softly' defined until it's released to you folks) using fiat money.
Edit: Also I'm pretty sure that shopkeeper has a family! How could you steal bread from their children's mouths so!! ;)
Ifneth2 votesYou. I like you.
There have definitely been some work gone into how the currencies of various regions, including Shurima, have evolved over the years/decades/centuries, how people refer to them, the kind of lifestyle you could live with certain types of work, and how you'd be paid, etc. Even counting systems and belief systems come into play. Some groups of people don't use money, while others are, it is proposed, (everything is 'softly' defined until it's released to you folks) using fiat money.
Edit: Also I'm pretty sure that shopkeeper has a family! How could you steal bread from their children's mouths so!! ;)
:D I like you, too!
Woahhhh... that’s so cool! Every time I ask about something foundational to the world, you say, “Oh, yeah, we’ve been working on that”. I hope more of this stuff could come to light one day.
As for your edit... well... It’s funny you should mention that. hikes up suspenders and pushes up glasses
“Taliyah had almost forgotten how much she’d missed the furnace heat of Shurima – the sweat and crush of hundreds of people pushing, cursing, haggling and speaking with such passion and speed that outsiders often thought they were fighting.” (Bloodline, Paragraph 1, emphasis mine)
Our little sparrow might just have loved the “sheer bustle and energy of her homeland,” finding haggling to be a casually harsh confrontation that upsets the weaker party upset and denies them a fair deal, but that does not sound like her. First, were children really going hungry because of their parents’ desperation for deals, Taliyah would not accept haggling’s contribution to the city’s atmosphere as an excuse for so much suffering.
Second, if I remember your comments about her from an earlier discussion correctly, then she learned Noxian from her father during negotiations for the sale tribal goods. Her father no doubt taught her not to accept first offers and, if necessary, haggle. Indeed, just like real-world shoppers like the feeling of getting a good deal from paying 99 cents rather than a dollar even though they know they’re almost the same, it might be Shuriman business-as-usual to offer high opening prices, inviting customers to demand lower ones, that they might feel like they got a good deal.
Third, the second line of Stoneweaver states that Taliyah was raised to be “a true daughter of the desert”. While that line refers to seeing beauty in the bare stone, that clause is broad enough to suggest a wholehearted embrace of Shuriman culture, from the goat’s milk to the woven cloth to the ancient cities to, yes, getting a good deal on a kebab at the market. If haggling is wrong, then Taliyah might not want to be right.
Which brings me to my last point.
“I saw your kids bringing vegetables through the back of the tent as I walked by—they barely fit through the door!”
Chromatic Eagle1 votesYou mean Zaun folk don’t literally pay with cogs? There goes my headcanon.
Lordk0z1 votesI know this is 3 months late, but what is the economy like in Noxus? How would coins be valued between those of a newly-conquered or surrendered nation-state and that of the rest of the Empire, would those coins still be in use?
RiotBioluminescence6 votesI know this is 3 months late, but what is the economy like in Noxus? How would coins be valued between those of a newly-conquered or surrendered nation-state and that of the rest of the Empire, would those coins still be in use?
Bear in mind this might change as it hasn't been used in a player-facing story yet, but the theory at the moment is that Noxus doesn't force a newly acquired territory to use Noxian coinage - it just makes it very easy and reliable to do so. One of the first things that might turn up (at the same time the masons are building the Noxtoraa, etc.) would be a counting house/exchange. Of course, there would be a lot of Noxians turning up to the new area (military or otherwise) and they'd have Noxian coin to spend. Merchants friendly to the Noxians might get favorable exchange rates, and of course the Noxian currency has the entire empire propping it up.
So while this might change in a story - Noxus doesn't force you to use Noxian currency. It's just the obvious choice.
Ultîma1 votesBear in mind this might change as it hasn't been used in a player-facing story yet, but the theory at the moment is that Noxus doesn't force a newly acquired territory to use Noxian coinage - it just makes it very easy and reliable to do so. One of the first things that might turn up (at the same time the masons are building the Noxtoraa, etc.) would be a counting house/exchange. Of course, there would be a lot of Noxians turning up to the new area (military or otherwise) and they'd have Noxian coin to spend. Merchants friendly to the Noxians might get favorable exchange rates, and of course the Noxian currency has the entire empire propping it up.
So while this might change in a story - Noxus doesn't force you to use Noxian currency. It's just the obvious choice.
Interesting, but why would Noxus do this? As an imperialistic nation you would think that they'd exert their economic influence on their vassal states just like Rome did in antiquity (as a matter of fact, the prevalence and circulation of Roman currency is part of why the empire was so powerful and influential).
Lordk0z1 votes1: If the Noxian currency isn't strong enough to beat the other currency out on it's own without help, it doesn't deserve to.
2: Because if you did force them, you'd have to buy up all their currency and replace it yourself, then take all your currently-worthless conquered coins and melt them down to make new Noxian ones. Easier on the economy to do it over time as you melt down the coins you do get from the voluntary exchange, which could charge higher rates which would mostly be paid by merchants interested in using their local coinage to purchase things outside of the local area, who can typically afford this and see the inherent value in the more stable, universal currency, and so are typically willing to pay the small surcharge on exchanging it.
Lordk0z1 votesYou mention the player-facing thing. Does that mean you have lore you haven't released, and it's only considered "finalized" after it's presented to the playerbase? Or am I reading too much into it?
And what do you think of the arguments presented below?
RiotBioluminescence3 votesYou mention the player-facing thing. Does that mean you have lore you haven't released, and it's only considered "finalized" after it's presented to the playerbase? Or am I reading too much into it?
And what do you think of the arguments presented below?
No that's about right. We have many plans and lore worked up for these sorts of things, but it's all a bit naval gaze-y unless it actually gets used in anger (or is used to inform something that gets used, etc.). If we come up with an idea for something that doesn't yet have a player-facing element to it, and someone comes up with a much better idea - is it not better to change to the better idea while it's still safe to do so?
Maybe think of it a little like quantum mechanics - the act of player observation collapses the probability waveform ;)
And your thoughts on why Noxus doesn't just impose its currency are pretty accurate. The strongest currency should win out, and much better to have a people voluntarily give up their old ways rather than generating resentment for generations.
Lordk0z1 votesLore is 
confirmed
Ifneth1 votesBear in mind this might change as it hasn't been used in a player-facing story yet, but the theory at the moment is that Noxus doesn't force a newly acquired territory to use Noxian coinage - it just makes it very easy and reliable to do so. One of the first things that might turn up (at the same time the masons are building the Noxtoraa, etc.) would be a counting house/exchange. Of course, there would be a lot of Noxians turning up to the new area (military or otherwise) and they'd have Noxian coin to spend. Merchants friendly to the Noxians might get favorable exchange rates, and of course the Noxian currency has the entire empire propping it up.
So while this might change in a story - Noxus doesn't force you to use Noxian currency. It's just the obvious choice.
Changing the local currency would be easy for Noxus, and I see no reason that they would not do it.
First, they can issue a decree ordering all dwellers of a conquered settlement to come to the counting house, where they must exchange all their old cash for Noxian coin. A slightly favorable exchange rate and small cash gift would cheaply encourage everyone to come when scheduled and bring all their money, too. Fines and jail time for stragglers would handle the rest.
Meanwhile, they can order all banks in the defeated region to surrender their previous currency for Noxian coins, removing huge amounts from circulation. These two large exchanges would happen under the shadow of two looming requirements. First, all shops would be required to accept Noxian currency and all taxes would be paid in same. Next, the old currency would simply be banned.
Over two weeks, any settlement of any size could be converted to the new currency with almost no effort.
Lordk0z1 votesLike I said, this requires effectively minting out enough new coins to replace all the old ones, and then being stuck with now-worthless coin that you then have to melt down to have it be of use. It also requires more troops to enforce these edicts, as well as what you mentioned, a favorable exchange rate. In other words, it's expensive, inefficient, and has no real benefit outside of crushing conformity.
Which is both ideologically opposed to the Noxian ideal of free struggle, where the strongest, the most fit, triumph, as well added cost for a conquering army.
Your average peasant doesn't pay taxes in coin, but rather in whatever he produced. The blacksmith paid in horseshoes and nails. The average farmer paid with wheat, butter, meat and leather, so there's another issue.
Ifneth1 votesLike I said, this requires effectively minting out enough new coins to replace all the old ones, and then being stuck with now-worthless coin that you then have to melt down to have it be of use. It also requires more troops to enforce these edicts, as well as what you mentioned, a favorable exchange rate. In other words, it's expensive, inefficient, and has no real benefit outside of crushing conformity.
Noxian coins are no doubt cheap and easy to make, considering the expansion of the empire. They’re probably just small zinc disks. Melting the coin would take a day or two of a couple blacksmiths’ furnaces, earning a tidy profit for the empire, since coins of precious metals can be smelted into bars sold to the highest bidder.
The exchange rate need only be a $20 gift and 1% extra on the exchange. Someone who has even $1,000 in cash would walk out with $30. A million dollars would handle over 300,000 people like that. When talking about governmental scales of cash, that’s cheap, and smelting the coins would easily pay for it. The banks would not get a favorable rate—just a swap.
Crushing defeated civilizations into the dirt to squeeze out their blood, sweat, and tears as fuel for a relentless war machine sounds just like what Noxus is all about. The strong don’t just defeat the weak, but then take their strength to add to their own. Changing the currency just makes that easier.
Which is both ideologically opposed to the Noxian ideal of free struggle, where the strongest, the most fit, triumph, as well added cost for a conquering army.
Demacia is not the only nation whose ideals are often used as an excuse. The Noxian ideal of ‘strength’ is just an excuse for everyone to take whatever they can—power, wealth, prestige—however they can from whomever cannot stop them. The Noxian reality is a single master ruling a world of slaves.
Your average peasant doesn't pay taxes in coin, but rather in whatever he produced. The blacksmith paid in horseshoes and nails. The average farmer paid with wheat, butter, meat and leather, so there's another issue.
Then that’s so much less currency to swap, if it’s so difficult.
Lordk0z2 votesIf they were just small zinc disks, then just about any jackass with a zinc mine could scam the Empire with counterfeit coins. Especially if they're cheaply made.
The reason coins are intentionally made intricately (and thus, at a higher expense) is to avoid said counterfeiting. If a Noxian coin were just a formless, standardized zinc disk with no features, it'd get counterfeited to hell and back.
Besides, closest thing to lore about Noxian currency that exists, shows the coins are Gold. Draven's showered in em when his passive procs, and we can assume that to be his fans in the fleshing arena.
If the bonus was "The exchange rate need only be a $20 gift and 1% extra on the exchange. Someone who has even $1,000 in cash would walk out with $30. ", or lets put it in Noxian terms, 10 Blades and a 1% extra, that's 10 blades you're essentially paying anyone who has coin, period. And if the exchange rate is "Too bad, you don't have enough to merit a bonus", well now some people are going to resent you more. And that means they'll rebel, be crushed, and there's another month's worth of marching a warband into position to squash some stupid rebels.
Noxus's official theme hasn't been "generically pointlessly evil empire" for a long time. Read up on modern lore man, Swain overthrew the Emperor and put three people in charge as a ruling council with Darius and Definitely Not Leblanc.
And according to your decrees, you're still going to have to send forces out to collect and swap all those coins anyway, even if they're not being traded, which is wasting more of your forces time.
It's simply not efficient.
Ifneth1 votesIf they were just small zinc disks, then just about any jackass with a zinc mine could scam the Empire with counterfeit coins. Especially if they're cheaply made.
The reason coins are intentionally made intricately (and thus, at a higher expense) is to avoid said counterfeiting. If a Noxian coin were just a formless, standardized zinc disk with no features, it'd get counterfeited to hell and back.
Who said they’re not printed with the finest dies in the empire? It’s cheap to run a wheel of dies over a line of coins.
Besides, closest thing to lore about Noxian currency that exists, shows the coins are Gold. Draven's showered in em when his passive procs, and we can assume that to be his fans in the fleshing arena.
Maybe, but the Rift’s currency is gold coins.
If the bonus was "The exchange rate need only be a $20 gift and 1% extra on the exchange. Someone who has even $1,000 in cash would walk out with $30. ", or lets put it in Noxian terms, 10 Blades and a 1% extra, that's 10 blades you're essentially paying anyone who has coin, period. And if the exchange rate is "Too bad, you don't have enough to merit a bonus", well now some people are going to resent you more. And that means they'll rebel, be crushed, and there's another month's worth of marching a warband into position to squash some stupid rebels.
To put this in perspective, Rome was the first ancient city to have a million people. $3 million dollars would have covered the exchange rate and gifts of the largest city in the world.
Noxus's official theme hasn't been "generically pointlessly evil empire" for a long time. Read up on modern lore man, Swain overthrew the Emperor and put three people in charge as a ruling council with Darius and Definitely Not Leblanc.
It’s not genetically, pointlessly evil. It’s using the people it conquers as cogs in a war machine to conquer more people to use as cogs and so on. Here’s what I imagine.
Raid. Everything of value not used for commerce is plundered by the troops as booty for having stormed the city.
Enslave. The children are taken away to Noxus, where they will be raised as fanatics to do the empire’s most dangerous work. The women are handed out as war brides for the garrison troops. The men are conscripted into the army as cannon fodder, slaughtered, or immediately pressed into work alongside the women.
Exploit. The city is made into a fortress factory, producing supplies, weapons, troops, food, precious metals, and raw materials for the empire. All vestiges of the old culture and language are destroyed, including temples and schools. Subjects live chained at the feet and sleep chained at the wrists, in warehouses.
Terrorize. Any dissent is met with torture into confession at show trial, followed by implications of others, who are likewise treated. All dissenters are executed. Random subjects are arrested or simply disappeared just to keep the rest guessing.
Indoctinate. Propaganda everywhere. Required recitations at breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Lack of enthusiasm is dissent and to be reported by co-workers or family members. Children are taken from their parents at birth, but breeding is mandatory to grow more bodies for the empire.
They crucial thing here is taking the children from the parents at birth. It achieves keeps the culture and language from being passed to the next generation while letting the empire completely indoctrinate them.
Meanwhile, once Singed fades from the public eye, Swain will release new gas bombs that can kill an entire army from miles away and use them non-stop. The bombs will then be used to exterminate any city that does not immediately surrender. Spies will be sent to sneak concentrated poison into the water supply of enemy nations.
Come to think of it, Swain is ruthless enough to mass flying units and gas-bomb every Ionian and Demacian city, river, and major farm around the clock. Even if the people living there survive his bombardment, the countryside won’t. They’ll all starve to death sooner or later.
What is holding him back from just going complete monster and taking over Runeterra inside the decade?
And according to your decrees, you're still going to have to send forces out to collect and swap all those coins anyway, even if they're not being traded, which is wasting more of your forces time.
It’s a couple of weeks early in the conquest. It takes no time.
Lordk0z1 votesOk. Seriously.
Did you just read literally none of the lore where they do world-building on Noxus or something. Because it really does sound like it.
Also, what flying units? There's no real mass-tamed flying animal nor mass-produced flying machine around.
Ifneth1 votesOk. Seriously.
Did you just read literally none of the lore where they do world-building on Noxus or something. Because it really does sound like it.
I have read it and decided that there’s obviously more to the story than what’s been told. The Noxian ideal is a lie. The ‘strong’ rise and are ‘accepted’ there because they use whatever means necessary to destroy the ‘weak’ in an endless, ruthless power struggle. If you don’t ‘accept’ them, then they’ll destroy you, too.
Want a promotion in Noxus? Murder your boss and hire thugs to kidnap his boss’ family. Like your neighbor’s jewelry? Rob him at knife-point.
Slighted by a passerby? Beat him half to death, drag him to your house, and make him your slave. Call the cops because any of this happened to you? Better have had the money to bribe them before and pay them after.
The world-building is just to explain what the Noxians tell themselves so they can sleep at night. Their regime and its ideas are a blight on the planet and must be excised. Don’t worry, though, the authoritarian nightmare of Demacia would be next.
Also, what flying units? There's no real mass-tamed flying animal nor mass-produced flying machine around.
The Demacians have the raptors. I imagine similar creatures live elsewhere in Runeterra. If not flying units, then large trebuchets would work too.
Tesla Effect1 votesSo far, player facing, I think we've established:
Piltover/Zaun: Gold hexes, silver gears, and bronze washers. Bilgewater: Golden krakens and silver serpents.
There was also a coin mentioned in the Rek'Sai teaser diary from Noxus, but I think we might see about tweaking the name of that a little bit.
There are other types of currencies, but those are the ones that I know of being player facing so far. Also the 'cogs' thing is a slang term for money - as Helixarrow says, it's like saying 'cash'.
The name of that Shuriman currency from the story was called Securi I think.
HonestJohnTheCon2 votesSilver serpents are another kind of currency in Bilgewater, presumably worth less than a Golden Kraken.
Also, "hexes" are the official term for currency in Piltover. I believe a Rioter said that the word "gears" is like "cash".
RiotRiot Scathlocke3 votesAnd in Zaun they've mentioned "cogs", presumably as small change.
Warlord Dienekes2 votesHonestly, I'd be surprised if the less imperial organized places had their own form of currency. It's unlikely Kumungu or Freljord have a mint, which would most likely mean they just use the currency of their more powerful neighbors. Those that got wealth would be likely be considered upper classes, while everyone else uses some mix of barter and foreign currency.
The exception might be Targon, since they're also a religious site and place of pilgrimage. And historically those locations develop advanced economics fairly quickly.
PoppyTheWerewolf1 votesgnar XD
CrowV21 votesThanks for all the help. Just wanted the info if i ever wanted to make a theory or story. :P
DragonBound11 voteswhat about ionia??
Ichi Ni San1 votesDo barter systems exist or is it pretty established that currency is the onl option just about anywhere