Hey Riot, how do you feel about maps? I always hear that Riot is never going to make one because "maps might look different depending on who's making them." However, can we ever have some generalization of where each faction is on Runeterra? Or even what Runeterra LOOKS like?!? I feel like the appearance of the world is a KEY feature to worldbuilding, and helps give us insight to the scale of conflicts and the factions.
RiotBioluminescence12 votesHello! Someone said maps, so here I am :)
To answer your first question, I feel very strongly about maps. Love them, love poring over them, examining them, making them, finding them referenced elsewhere, imagining myself travelling their ways, etc.
I think you may have misinterpreted (or been misinformed) on our current stance on maps, however - we are looking to make and release more maps in the future (as fast as I can get them to you - which is frustratingly slowly).
What you may have heard was that it was unlikely we were going to drop a full, scientifically-accurate, world map in the near future. That's still true, but the success of the Medarda Heirloom has meant that internally Riot is getting a better understanding of how important maps are to players like us. There are quite a few map fans in the office, but without data, it's hard to prove that it's not just a few dozen nerdy Rioters who love maps ;)
I agree that a map is a fantastic tool for conveying world information and relationships, and every time I do a search for "Runeterra map" and I see the old, non-canon, map, I feel sad. Working on having something else pop up in those search results instead, but it may be quite a while. :/
Electro5221 votesHaving the R&D mistress herself work on an official map of Runeterra? That's interesting.
Whatever happened to your top secret project that I can't ever get any info on out of you?
RiotBioluminescence3 votes[{quoted}](name=Paleo Electro,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=iABxEaZf,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2017-06-05T22:37:45.364+0000)
Having the R&D mistress herself work on an official map of Runeterra? That's interesting.
Whatever happened to your top secret project that I can't ever get any info on out of you?
Well, I was working on maps (internaly used, Shurima, and Medarda) in my spare time, anyway, so we decided to make it legit and get me on the team all official like.
Basically means there's even less of a chance of getting any secret info out of me now! ;P
Pierce The Veal2 votesJust wanted to chime in and let you know that for a very long time bioluminescence was my favorite word (back in middle school-early high school). Now I'm in med school soooo...
I'll also be doing some research on my own in regards to keeping and breeding velvet belly lanternsharks in captivity, a bioluminescent shark species that has velvety skin and grow to 2 feet maximum. (Shark keeping is a personal hobby of mine).
Thanks for the info and for being such a cool Rioter :P
Psyrix1 votesThat's so cool dude, haha I'd love to see pictures
ProtestantCaesar4 votesLeague of Legends home > Universe > Regions > Piltover > The Medarda Heirloom (it's a trade map from Piltover)
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/featured/piltover/medarda-heirloom
Darrosh Jewfist3 votesThis map bothers me because it reminds me too much of cringe-y worldbuilding that teenagers do. There's a lot of detail, names, but not a whole lot of substance. Really, the only difference between this map and any other map you can find on some worldbuilding forum is the production values and it has the Riot seal of approval.
I think a map would be more meaningful if the places meant something, like they were referenced in narratives or came with concept art/short stories on each little town or hamlet, but really everything besides Piltover seemed is of no consequence. All those extra tidbit towns and stuff just seem like after-thought to achieve a 'more details, looks more cool' effect.
Psyrix4 votes[{quoted}](name=Darrosh Jewfist,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=iABxEaZf,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-06-04T23:04:40.750+0000)
This map bothers me because it reminds me too much of cringe-y worldbuilding that teenagers do. There's a lot of detail, names, but not a whole lot of substance. Really, the only difference between this map and any other map you can find on some worldbuilding forum is the production values and it has the Riot seal of approval.
I think a map would be more meaningful if the places meant something, like they were referenced in narratives or came with concept art/short stories on each little town or hamlet, but really everything besides Piltover seemed is of no consequence. All those extra tidbit towns and stuff just seem like after-thought to achieve a 'more details, looks more cool' effect.
You know Riot has been doing lore updates for each region right?
Darrosh Jewfist1 votesYou know Riot has been doing lore updates for each region right?
So?
My point was who gives a shit about Basilich or Tereshni? They're towns on the map that as far as I know, and for most of the other towns, never been mentioned in any lore writings or narratives outside of this map. Why should I give a damn about it? I care nothing for these specks.
The only thing meaningful on that map is Piltover, everything else is just filler detail to look cool.
Riot can do all the lore updates it wants, it doesn't change the fact that the lore is still shallow.
Psyrix5 votes[{quoted}](name=Darrosh Jewfist,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=iABxEaZf,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-04T23:34:19.837+0000)
So?
My point was who gives a shit about Basilich or Tereshni? They're towns on the map that as far as I know, and for most of the other towns, never been mentioned in any lore writings or narratives outside of this map. Why should I give a damn about it? I care nothing for these specks.
The only thing meaningful on that map is Piltover, everything else is just filler detail to look cool.
Riot can do all the lore updates it wants, it doesn't change the fact that the lore is still shallow.
....That's not the only map there is. That is a Trade map used by Piltovians and Zaunites. Of course there are going to be towns and areas that you've never heard about nor care about, the same as IRL maps. Do u know and care about every place on the globe? Highly doubtful. Apply this to Runeterra as It's not like Runeterra is a small continent. And if you did read the lores and short stories you would find that names are mentioned. That's my main point. Additionally, Riot is still doing lore updates dude, chill out. Have you gone onto the Universe page and read through all the updated bios, short stories and lores?
Darrosh Jewfist1 votesDo u know and care about every place on the globe? Highly doubtful. Apply this to Runeterra
I'm not going to apply this logic to Runeterra because Runeterra is a fantasy world and not real life.
Runeterra is a fantasy world where all information about it is gated by Riot. Riot decides what they want to show and what they don't want to. They decided they wanted to show us a map full of random nowhere zones with no background for them.
I think that's a mistake.
Additionally, Riot is still doing lore updates dude, chill out. Have you gone onto the Universe page and read through all the updated bios, short stories and lores?
The use of 'chill out' to imply I'm mad when I'm pointing out where Riot has fallen short in their execution of lore. That's rich.
The topic is about the map. I pointed out the map that the original comment linked isn't that great because it's mostly filler. I don't like it. I think it's poorly executed because the map means nothing without the places having some meaning. Nowhere did I comments suggest I haven't read the updated bios, short stories and lores as if that is supposed to make me appreciate a trade map of Piltover-Zaun more.
Psyrix4 votes[{quoted}](name=Darrosh Jewfist,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=iABxEaZf,comment-id=000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-05T00:13:01.721+0000)
I'm not going to apply this logic to Runeterra because Runeterra is a fantasy world and not real life.
Runeterra is a fantasy world where all information about it is gated by Riot. Riot decides what they want to show and what they don't want to. They decided they wanted to show us a map full of random nowhere zones with no background for them.
I think that's a mistake.
The use of 'chill out' to imply I'm mad when I'm pointing out where Riot has fallen short in their execution of lore. That's rich.
The topic is about the map. I pointed out the map that the original comment linked isn't that great because it's mostly filler. I don't like it. I think it's poorly executed because the map means nothing without the places having some meaning. Nowhere did I comments suggest I haven't read the updated bios, short stories and lores as if that is supposed to make me appreciate a trade map of Piltover-Zaun more.
The map is there to further integrate the fact that Piltover is a trade city. Take into context the point of the map and it's origins, it is from the Piltover update, If you read the updated champion lores and Bios/Short stories you will find some of the places referenced (e.g. Ezreal travelling to Nashramae).
Sure it is fantasy, but consider reality in your expectations. Furthermore, as I said, Riot is still pumping out lore updates etc. they are still in Beta and have said that they will continue to make stories to further integrate places and champions. It is a large world you aren't going to get everything all at once
My saying "chill out" wasn't referring to you being mad, I just meant be patient
Darrosh Jewfist1 votesSure it is fantasy, but consider reality in your expectations.
The reality is that this lore retcon is several years in the making and still incomplete. The reality is that we've gone several years without an updated map of Runeterra since the retcon.
Furthermore, as I said, Riot is still pumping out lore updates etc. they are still in Beta and have said that they will continue to make stories to further integrate places and champions.
Sure, but I don't care about the places. It's Riot's job to create a compelling narrative to make me (and by extension, much of the audience at large and not just the lore nuts) care.
A namedrop mention by Ezreal about some random backwater hamlet isn't exactly compelling.
It is a large world you aren't going to get everything all at once
The problem with this statement is that I feel that other IPs have done a solid job of building a universe. Consider how Warcraft came out in 1994 and by Warcraft 2 it had a solidly establish universe and Warcraft 3 exploded in popularity. Look at how Overwatch came up with a solid aesthetic and universe virtually overnight. League has a lot of catching up to do and your argument that essentially boils down to 'But it's Riot guys... give it time...' is something I find inexcusable when its direct competitor(s) are doing strides in this department while they're fill floundering with 'updates' and finishing up a retcon they started 3 years ago.
Psyrix2 votes[{quoted}](name=Darrosh Jewfist,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=iABxEaZf,comment-id=00000000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-05T00:41:49.596+0000)
The reality is that this lore retcon is several years in the making and still incomplete. The reality is that we've gone several years without an updated map of Runeterra since the retcon.
Sure, but I don't care about the places. It's Riot's job to create a compelling narrative to make me (and by extension, much of the audience at large and not just the lore nuts) care.
A namedrop mention by Ezreal about some random backwater hamlet isn't exactly compelling.
The problem with this statement is that I feel that other IPs have done a solid job of building a universe. Consider how Warcraft came out in 1994 and by Warcraft 2 it had a solidly establish universe and Warcraft 3 exploded in popularity. Look at how Overwatch came up with a solid aesthetic and universe virtually overnight. League has a lot of catching up to do and your argument that essentially boils down to 'But it's Riot guys... give it time...' is something I find inexcusable when its direct competitor(s) are doing strides in this department while they're fill floundering with 'updates' and finishing up a retcon they started 3 years ago.
Can you give me a more detailed reason as to why ur discontent? Cuz I'm not really getting a clear reason. Overwatch's lore (in regards to places and maps) doesnt really seem all that..."more" than League of Legends (they have more cinematics but they're in regards to the characters.... they only give a brief description of each map, which is a different concept from league as you arent usually playing on those maps).... Why don't you care about these places and how do u think you'd be able to care? What do you think will drive ur interest?
Darrosh Jewfist1 votesI gave my reasons in a reply to Bio.
Psyrix1 votesOh, thanks sorry haven't been online, I think I understand what you are getting at now. And agree on some of the points, but that map was a trade map, and sure there were alot of namedrops, but some of the cities did get explored and gave an understanding of the basic cultures/feelings. Janna's story for example with her now being a wind spirit has some of this. It may just be my giving the benefit of the doubt, but these lore updates are barely a year old. with only the base stories from the champions to rely on. The offical retcons of previous lores is really only a year old, before that nothing really changed, it's only recently (within the past year and a half or so) that updates have started
RiotBioluminescence9 votes[{quoted}](name=Darrosh Jewfist,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=iABxEaZf,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2017-06-04T23:04:40.750+0000)
This map bothers me because it reminds me too much of cringe-y worldbuilding that teenagers do. There's a lot of detail, names, but not a whole lot of substance. Really, the only difference between this map and any other map you can find on some worldbuilding forum is the production values and it has the Riot seal of approval.
I think a map would be more meaningful if the places meant something, like they were referenced in narratives or came with concept art/short stories on each little town or hamlet, but really everything besides Piltover seemed is of no consequence. All those extra tidbit towns and stuff just seem like after-thought to achieve a 'more details, looks more cool' effect.
Hey, Darrosh!
Would you mind giving me a bit more insight into why the Medarda map disappointed you/pissed you off so much?
From what you write here, it sounds like you'd have preferred the map not to have any locations mentioned, except for Piltover? That might be the wrong way to interpret what you wrote. I know Psyrix has mentioned that there are several locations on the map that have been referenced in other contexts (bios, color stories, short stories, and VO) but that's not the sort of thing you were looking for, it seems.
Am I to understand that, for any map released in the future, you would hope would have an accompanying short-story/encyclopedia entry and illustration for each location labelled? That would probably mean that future maps would be very sparse in locations mentioned due to the time required for getting all that to player-facing quality and approval.
Can you show me an example of a good map, one that you hold up as an example of what you would want to see Riot do in the future? Not to say that we would follow it, but often it can be easier to understand with a visual aid :D
######PS - Nashramae is my favorite League location, by the way (though Zaun is a close second). Its where the worshipers of Rammus do their yearly rolling through the streets. It's where Nasus finally stopped his rampaging brother - because burning the ancient city's library was a step too far. It even has its own (fake) sun disc!
Darrosh Jewfist8 votesWould you mind giving me a bit more insight into why the Medarda map disappointed you/pissed you off so much?
It annoys me because when I look at this map, and I see the overload of details and no-name places. These places have no consequence. They don't matter. They're there really just as filler - to fill up the map. To copy paste examples from r/worldbuilding, it reminds me a lot of these.
http://imgur.com/UyZP7Kz https://i.redd.it/v4hq2om65n9y.jpg http://imgur.com/a/oZJlc http://imgur.com/a/x96WW
To me, there's really no difference between Riot's maps here and the ones made by amateurs. It's EASY to get excited and make an overly detailed map and go wild adding random locations without any intention of actually fleshing them out later. They're just names on a piece of paper that exists nowhere but in name. They don't have an identify or an existence. They're just there to make the map look fuller and cooler.
The biggest difference between a map like the ones I linked and say, a map of Westeros, is that Westeros' world is intimately fleshed out either by movie, shows, books, whatever. Each region and culture in GoT is clearly defined and stories are centered around these locations with characters that progress and interact.
League simply doesn't have that right now.
I remember a friend telling me it's pretty common to talk what-if scenarios in Westeros. What if the North and Vale joined in an alliance against the South or whatever. All these armchair logistical discussions. They're fun because there's a plethora of backing that makes the map meaningful from books to stories or appendices. You can talk population densities, where major centers of trade and castles are, and fighting styles...
You can't do that in League simply because hell, we don't even have a full map of Runeterra.
If you ask any avid watcher/reader of GoT and talk about the Westerlands or the North, they'll have a pretty good idea of what you're talking about. If I talked about Urzeris or some random location on the map, even the more ardent League lore-nut would be tough to describe what it's like there. Compare that to how fleshed out Last Hearth, White Harbor and Dreadfort is from Game of Thrones both in terms of fanart, fanfiction, discussions, and etc... Then you realize these are relatively minor settlements compared to High Garden, Casterly Rock, King's Landing and think how well those cities are fleshed out.
So when I see a map like the Medarda map, I kind of see of it as pointless. I know nothing about this region. I care nothing for it. Nothing outside of Piltover really matters.
From what you write here, it sounds like you'd have preferred the map not to have any locations mentioned, except for Piltover? That might be the wrong way to interpret what you wrote. I know Psyrix has mentioned that there are several locations on the map that have been referenced in other contexts (bios, color stories, short stories, and VO) but that's not the sort of thing you were looking for, it seems.
Name-dropping a place doesn't exactly flesh it for me. I noticed in the newer lores, there's a lot more adjectives and name dropping. Taric's example come to mind.
He saw the Alabaster Library engulfed in pitch and flame, and still he dashed into the roiling inferno to retrieve the poetry of Tung. He screamed in rage as the Frostguard ran the last dreamstag off a blind cliff, and then leapt into the abyss himself in a desperate attempt to save it.
This is a problem that's consistently seen in League lore. Stuff gets name-dropped and means pretty much nothing. There's no appendix or wikia to tell me what the Tung are or what a dreamstag is. The Frostguard barely have enough on the wikia to warrant their own section and they share their page with the rest of Freljord.
I would much prefer a story that centers on a specific town or hamlet that gives insight to the culture.
The big problem with this is that this is how it can backfire like it has already happened in Lux's story. The region isn't highlighted at all. The town was Terbisia (had to look it up) and we really know nothing about it except it has walls, got struck with an earthquake and thats it.
Granted, the story is supposed to center on Lux's character but you could honestly replace Terbisia with the city of Demacia herself and the story would gain or lose absolutely nothing. I've learned nothing about Terbisia anyways or its people or its culture.
I think an actually good ( but not great) example in League of providing cultural context is in Jhin's lore.
We hear he's part of a traveling performing troupe and he goes to different places. What's also helpful is that this gives us an idea of the culture in Ionia. We get to see what mere mortals do - they like watching theatre performances and doing festivals. We know they like Blossom Festivals. That sticks with me because it's better than whatever the heck Trebisia was described as.
And this helps me better understand Ionia. If there was a map of Ionia, as I see the Jyom Pass, I could imagine the people there having festivals and celebrating. This is what they do in the course of their daily life. I can imagine the possibilities of other festivals because there is documented examples of the Blossom Festival already.
Now, when I see a map of Ionia, instead of just thinking of a somewhat racist asian-inspired caricature in my head, I can imagine the citizentry in their towns celebrating festivals watching plays.
Am I to understand that, for any map released in the future, you would hope would have an accompanying short-story/encyclopedia entry and illustration for each location labelled? That would probably mean that future maps would be very sparse in locations mentioned due to the time required for getting all that to player-facing quality and approval.
If the released lores are any indication of playing-facing quality, I'm not holding out for much. A lot of Riot's written lore pieces sound purply, excessive use of adjectives, and sometimes feel roundabout.
I do think a short-story encyclopedia entry/illustration for each location would be massively helpful. Granted League isn't an MMO, but World of Warcraft did wonders for fleshing out its world. It's ridiculously detailed. You could look up Northshire, Goldshire, Darkshire... and that's just within the Kingdom of Stormwind. You can read on Westfall and all the struggles of individual places. Just from the name you can get an idea of the culture and the fact you can visit these locations in game is a huge boon (one that League might struggle to imitate like an MMO does).
Can you show me an example of a good map, one that you hold up as an example of what you would want to see Riot do in the future? Not to say that we would follow it, but often it can be easier to understand with a visual aid :D
Really, the only difference between a good map and a bad map is what those things represent. If you showed a Warhammer (or 40k) fan a map of the Old World or the Five Segmentums, they can intimately tell you of each different region. From the Elector-Princes of the Empire to Britannia or the Realm of Ultramar and Cadia and Fenris. All these places mean something on the map.
They're not specks of nothing that serve as space-filler like the Medarda map.
RiotBioluminescence11 votesKokoboto just called me out for over-complicating my responses - so I’m going to be super straight-up here.
First off - those maps you’re referencing have places on them that weren’t detailed when they were first released.
There are places on Tolkien’s map that aren’t featured destinations in Lord of the Rings.
World of Warcraft - well that’s fair. They had several prior games and then released an MMORPG where any location on the map was a location you could visit in the game (with quests and characters and stuff). Fair call on that one.
Warhammer Fantasy? Pretty sure that first edition’s map (1983) was full of locations that weren’t used yet - before their first novels in 1989 there were just offhand mentions in rulebook fluff.
Places shown on the first two maps from A Song of Ice and Fire book 1, that aren’t mentioned, never mind visited. Now, of course, George R.R. Martin does eventually reference and visit a whole tonne of places on those maps and they’re usually of critical, military and political, importance. But in book one - who the hell knows anything about Dorne other than it’s on the Southern map?
But let’s ignore the examples and discuss the problem - there are places on the map that you don’t believe we’ll ever actually flesh out.
That is a legit fear, tbh.
Story/worldbuilding releases are slow - and nowhere near the speed or depth that releasing an MMO, or an epic novel, would achieve. You don’t have faith, and that is your right. Hell, it’s possible that we never will - even if we had whole wikis full of backstory and detail, some messed up confluence of crap could mean it never actually got released.
And I’ll level with you - there are some places on the map that don’t have details.
Now, that’s not because we don’t want to detail the cultures and stuff of each and every location (I’d love to do that) - it’s because this is a living universe, and folks are bloody terrified of limiting themselves in the future.
Tolkien and Martin - each a one man writing machine, beholden to no-one but themselves. They had easy mode - no collaborators, and clear release schedules.
World of Warcraft is a better comparison - lots and lots of devs trying to keep everything right - except even then you see when they want to add some new content, they usually either blow up the whole damn world, or add a new continent. Because whenever you really flesh out a place, it’s hard as hell to add more to it in the future.
Excuses? Absolutely!
So where does that leave us.
It leaves us releasing maps with room to grow - it means that champs will casually name drop locations that another dev can run with later. It means that even since the Medarda Heirloom map was released, writers have written characters having rich experiences, and artists have drawn concepts, of what was previously just a dot on the map with a name.
It’s like that game of D&D you mentioned - except instead of us telling the players that they need to go on a quest to Tereshni to rescue who the hell cares, it means that players have looked at the map, seen Tereshni on it, and when later on they follow the clues in the murder and discover that the shapeshifter has fled to a city of terraces that burns red in the sunrise from the intricate glass momento mori mosaics on every flat surface, they know where to go; a city with an unhealthy appreciation for death, three strictly chaperoned and veiled courting festivals a year, and ritualized mortification feasts with food so spicy that it can lead to fever, vomiting and unconsciousness.
Is that Tereshni? Not in the canon. It may never be - but we’ve got the chance to show you what it is in the future (and with much more skill than my little crappy example above).
Now, you probably hate this answer. That’s fair. It has confirmed your suspicion that there are places on the map just for the sake of having places.
I just would like you to keep in mind (even if you’re disappointed) that
That might take a long time, and it might never happen - but we honestly, really, hope to do so.
Darrosh Jewfist4 votesThank you for your response, Bio. I appreciate the time you've put into this response.
I think that you spent a lot of time trying to 'defend' League by saying these other franchises took time to build and flesh out. That is true. I admit it's unfair to compare League to franchises that have literally decades to build on, but in the same vein I don't. I know the expectations are crooked, but the reality is that these are League's direct competitors. These are giant franchises with legendary universes which I feel League could definitely match up to.
I feel a lot of your points are summed up as basically 'things take time, trust us'. I understand things take time, but the only things I can see, criticize, and comment on are stuff that's out there. I don't know what's behind the scenes. I also don't feel it's an adequate excuse. It sounds deflective, like 'Oh woe is me! You don't know how hard it is!' And I'm here thinking 'but this is your job...?'
Your main point:
But let’s ignore the examples and discuss the problem - there are places on the map that you don’t believe we’ll ever actually flesh out.
Is absolutely spot on. It's hard for me to trust Riot and give it more time, why?
The Retcon was in 2013. It's been 4 years since then. Four. And still Brand's lore still has League of Legends in it.
http://gameinfo.euw.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/brand/
Overcome by Demacian forces, he was given a choice: fight within the confines of the League or die. Naturally, he chose to use his destructive powers in the League, for now...
Riot has had FOUR years of TIME?
My thinking is basically, you guys (who seem to work via consensus and extensive collaboration) haven't been able to, at the very absolutely minimum, update all the released champions lore to reflect retcon changes after FOUR years? It screams either incompetence or inefficiency to me.
I'm not asking for short stories. I'm not asking for long bios.
I'm asking that all the champions are on board with this retcon.
Like, it looks like total amateur hour. That we STILL need to talk about a retcon that's ongoing four years later.
Then you throw in how many events you've had in that time where you've basically ping-ponged over the place. Let's go to Bilgewater! Then Shurima! Then Bilgewater again! Shadow Isles maybe! Piltover-Zaun next! Vastayah! Yeah!
I appreciate the events, but they're infrequent and inconsistently released. We have no idea when to expect the next big Demacia/Noxus update or whatever hypothetical update. It could literally hit PBE next week or in 3 months and neither would surprise me.
And sure, people will care. They flounder back. Then after the event is said and done they slowly start to leave again until the next big event in 3+ months.
Because the stuff that's out there is shallow, quickly consumed, and people have nothing to latch onto. Engaging story lines mean nothing if they can ignored for literally years.
So how can I TRUST Riot when they haven't went back to the Freljord to the War of Three Sisters Event in like 5 years? There's definitely a history of starting some engines and then dropping them like a rock and moving onto the next thing.
The TIME and TRUST issues goes into why the map pisses me off. The map just looks cool. It means nothing and judging by past experiences most of the places will never mean anything to the playerbase (simply because the content will never see public consumption). And if it does one day will mean something, it could take years at the rate releases of new lore is going.
The map serves only to look cool momentarily, like so many maps on r/worldbuilding made by amateur and teenagers.
If you're trying to ask for more TIME, I see a still incomplete retcon. If you're asking for TRUST, I see dropped story-lines and random all-over-the-place region events.
I really believe League lore has the potential to be great. I wouldn't spend time here if I didn't. But you're asking for time and trust. I feel Riot has squandered a lot of both.
You mention here,
Now, that’s not because we don’t want to detail the cultures and stuff of each and every location (I’d love to do that) - it’s because this is a living universe, and folks are bloody terrified of limiting themselves in the future.
I don't know what Riot's idea of 'limiting themselves in the future' really means. But we, the fanbase, have heard that before... the Great Retcon.
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/creative-spotlight/dev-blog-exploring-runeterra
Furthermore, the very idea of all-powerful Summoners made Champions little more than puppets manipulated by godlike powers. The background we’d created to explain in-game action was ultimately restricting the potential narrative development of the game’s defining characters.
So Riot wanted freedom from the League because it's restrictive (and now the IoW and LoL is retconned) but now Riot is terrified of committing to details because it could possibly restrict them in the future?
I don't know what to say about that.
Beyond Legends1 votesI don't see why that's a problem. I mean did you think token manage to plan out the entire lord of the rings in a fee years? It was decade of work that you don't see behind the scene and he didn't go into detail.
I mean you want fast fast fast, but do you realize that only really makes it so that Riot would have to go in later and retcon everything again becauae of complicated and often confusing backstory and events.
Seems to me you're needlessly salty and impatient of things.
Darrosh Jewfist2 votesI mean you want fast fast fast, but do you realize that only really makes it so that Riot would have to go in later and retcon everything again becauae of complicated and often confusing backstory and events.
Me:_ It's kind of ridic how it takes four years to update a couple of text-based champion bios on their website. _
You: _WHOA HOLD YOUR HORSES THERE BUDDY! ROME WASN'T BUILT IN A DAY. YOU KIDS JUST WANT EVERYTHING FAST FAST FAST NOWADAYS! LET ME TELL YOU BE PATIENT BEFORE RIOT WILL SURELY DELIVER. TRUST ME. _
Well sorry if four years of waiting for this damn retcon to be finished comes off as impatient. If it takes four years for them to finish up the retcon for a few text based bios, what fucking hope do you expect of them actually fleshing out a meaningful and complete world of Runeterra?
I don't see why that's a problem. I mean did you think token manage to plan out the entire lord of the rings in a fee years? It was decade of work that you don't see behind the scene and he didn't go into detail.
This is also kind of disingenuous because come on. League of Legends was released in 2009. that's been 8 years since then (barring the retcon). At this point and time for the Warcraft Franchise (First game in 1994) they were releasing Warcraft 3 in 2002. And let me tell you, Warcraft 3 was hella engaging in both the world, story AND characters. Hell, characters introduced then are still mainstays of current Warcraft like Arthas, Illidan, Tyrande. Warcraft has had its share of retcons as well but it's still truckin'. The devs aren't pausing development to mope around and go 'oh noes!'
Starcraft got released with an expansion pack back-to-back years.
The Elder Scrolls franchise first game came out in 1994, 8 years later they're on Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind and by then it's already a fairly well known RPG franchise.
All these universes are established. They're strong and have a distinct and patented universe.
So this stuff JRRTolkein didn't build LotR in a day just seems like bullshit to me. Other companies have made much more effective use of their time and didn't go into some (but it taaaakes tiiiimee) pity rant to keep re-assuring themselves they'll get there.
They released genre-defining products.
I just don't accept the apologist arguments from posters. A lot of posters will come here and say "but dude, chill out and give Riot some time/be patient/stop being salt." Bruh. They've gotten four years and can't even finish a retcon they themselves started?
IT'S LITERALLY UPDATING TEXT FILES ON A WEBSITE TO REMOVE MENTIONS OF 'LEAGUE OF LEGENDS' OR 'INSTITUTE OF WAR'.
If that doesn't scream incompetence or amateur hour to you, I don't know what to say. You're pretty sunk deep as a corporate-blinded shill.
Beyond Legends1 votesWarcraft was an rts which single narrative to tell. League is moba a genre which doesn't get into lore or worldbuilding often. Tell me did warcraft 3 get to the creation of titans by warcraft 3 or pandaria? cavern of time? the old gods?
League doesn't have the luxurary of simplying adding on things like most other rpgs. League has to manage to weave mutiple seperate narrative as long as rebuild the base narrative infalstructure.
Imagine rebuild the entire warcraft universe as it is now. It's going to take a few years at least. The fact is that most people are content which progress as it now and people understand that things takes time to build.
Darrosh Jewfist2 votesWarcraft was an rts which single narrative to tell. League is moba a genre which doesn't get into lore or worldbuilding often. Tell me did warcraft 3
No but it did get to tell the story of Arthas, his fall, the orcs and their crossing of the sea, the fall of Lordaeron, and the triumph of a new alliance of humans, orc and Night Elf over a demon invasion. It's told a pretty fleshed out story with memorable characters. League hasn't achieved anything like Warcraft 3.
League doesn't have the luxurary of simplying adding on things like most other rpgs.
You're shitting me right? League came from Dota, which is a custom game mode of Warcraft. They could, in theory, make a singleplayer/co-op PvE mode if they decide to but I doubt that's possible given all the tech debt they've accumulated with spaghetti code.
Besides, the lore team has shown creativity before with introducing the Bilgewater map for ARAM and banning GP for a week. It's not impossible.
League has to manage to weave mutiple seperate narrative as long as rebuild the base narrative infalstructure.
So? Game of Thrones and Warcraft 3 both do the same shit with multiple POVs spanning entire continents. Not an excuse.
The fact is that most people are content which progress as it now and people understand that things takes time to build.
Now this is where you are categorically wrong.
Just. Plain. Wrong.
First of all, most people AREN'T CONTENT with the progress since the Retcon.
https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/3b386d/we_want_lore/ https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2fcwsr/please_riot_we_want_more_lore_would_be_nice_if/?ref=search_posts https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/2ysu3d/riot_please_bring_back_detailed_lore/
People want lore and they clearly feel Riot isn't doing at a speed to meet demand.
And yes, people understand it takes time to build. The problem is when other video games are pumping out impressive stories/universes/worlds/characters while League is STILL TWIDDLING ITS THUMBS WITH A LORE RETCON FOUR YEARS AGO.
Holy hell, if you want an idea of how discontent people are with a lore, LOOK AT THE STORY, ART, AND SOUND BOARD.
It's practically dead.
Why?
Because most of the sane people who were discontent left. They lost interest. All that remains are a bunch of tough lore-nuts stuck in a semi-echo chamber.
Maybe that's why you feel most people are content with the progress.
Because you're stuck here in this echo chamber.
Beyond Legends1 votesNecrit simple proves you wrong m8. 1000 upvote pale in comparasent when actually lore event are release, cherry picking at best. I been here long enough to know this place has always been this “empty” or “dead”. I mean sure their isn't lore disscussion but that was nether the case with the old lore.
Also I wouldn't call you people “sane” lol, certainly not after that targon circle jerk of hate you had a year back.
Also when I said the luxurary of building ontop things, I mean expanding on previous unknown. Riot currently is refilling the massive empty void that is the league lore.
Also league isn't like warcraft where the entire game has a grand narrative to tell which doesn't help leagues case.
Darrosh Jewfist2 votesIf anything, Necrit shows people want lore but holy **** is it Riot not producing it. The fans have to recycle it and make videos on it to keep people's interest.
That's why you see views on Necrit's youtube but not here. There's nothing to discuss here.
I remember a time back during the forums before we moved onto the boards when people were actually around discussing stuff. That's pretty much dead now.
But this line:
Also league isn't like warcraft where the entire game has a grand narrative to tell which doesn't help leagues case.
All you're doing is giving excuses when it's literally the narrative's job to figure out how to deliver an engaging narrative in whatever the hell medium they got to work with.
Like, go look at Overwatch or Team Fortress 2. They have worlds with a definitive aesthetic that people know is patently OW or TF2. They don't have a grand narrative to tell but I can tell you I got a stronger understanding of the Scout's character and his relationships with the rest of his team from this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLlLQ3LmZWU
Than all of the new stuff Riot has released to understand any single character so far.
Psyrix1 votesBut arguably there is a reason why those franchises have their lores so clear cut. Right now we don't have a clear reason as to why Summoner's Rift exists, if we go by the old reason (institute of war) even then it isnt a clear cut reason. Overwatch and the song of ice and fire series have a clear reason. Overwatch the heroes vs villains in savng the world and Game of Thrones the main driving force of most characters and events is the throne and who will rule (the whitewalkers the north is really the only faction that knows about it) League of Legends however does not have a main driving force that will be able to draw information from, There are several motivations and some of them interact, but largely there isn't a central focus on a goal.
Sure, not having a clear goal is technically the fault of the creators, but if we contrast it to out real universe there isnt a known reason we just advance because we can, which is why I appreciate what has been done so far, but also why it is so nebulous.......
I'm really sorry my mind is getting pulled in too many directions, is there a way i can actually talk to u 1-1? :3 I really wanna hear ur thoughts and not really have to worry about if what i'm saying is relevant or if you know what I'm referring to and vice-versa
DeathBurst2 votesI don't know what Riot's idea of 'limiting themselves in the future' really means. But we, the fanbase, have heard that before... the Great Retcon.
Well, precisely? That's because they got bitten once that they are careful of not doing it again?
Riot is terrified of committing to details
That's not what she said... They said they were careful to leave room for future stuff, that's not the same thing as not committing to details. They do commit to details all the time for the stuff they are actually talking about now, they just don't want to fill up everything and paint themselves in a corner for the stuff they'll have to talk about tomorrow.
Chønklord2 votesNow, that’s not because we don’t want to detail the cultures and stuff of each and every location (I’d love to do that) - it’s because this is a living universe, and folks are bloody terrified of limiting themselves in the future.
##This right here; this is the primary reason why these players are angry and having issues with the content you are releasing for League's lore.
Some may not see it, so let me interpret the "inbetween lines":
because
this is a living universethe champions, gameplay, everything, is constantly changing patch to patch, sometimes overwhelmingly so, and~~ folks are bloody terrified of limiting themselves in the future~~ Riot overall is too scared to commit any substantive story background specifics for the game world and its champions, because they might be reworked or the game might drastically change from one season to the next.
For example, with the upcoming "Runes Reforged", it has implications for champion lore due to how they will now be interacting with powerful "Keystone Runes" that essentially slap on another "passive" ability to their kit.
Hellioning3 votesBio. Please. If I hear another Rioter use the 'give us time' explanation again I am going to scream.
I've given Riot time. How much more do they need?
Also,
it’s because this is a living universe, and folks are bloody terrified of limiting themselves in the future.
Limits are great. Having limits lets the audience to know what they can and cannot expect in the future of a story. Refusing to limit yourself just means that the audience has no idea of what might possibly come next, and while that sounds good, it just means that they have no reason to stick around besides 'maybe something cool will happen iunno.'
(also, it's kinda annoying to hear that explanation after Trundle was changed for that exact reason and then nothing came of it.)
RiotBioluminescence2 votesBio. Please. If I hear another Rioter use the 'give us time' explanation again I am going to scream.
I've given Riot time. How much more do they need?
Also,
Limits are great. Having limits lets the audience to know what they can and cannot expect in the future of a story. Refusing to limit yourself just means that the audience has no idea of what might possibly come next, and while that sounds good, it just means that they have no reason to stick around besides 'maybe something cool will happen iunno.'
(also, it's kinda annoying to hear that explanation after Trundle was changed for that exact reason and then nothing came of it.)
It's less that I'm asking you for time - rather I'm simply stating that it's going to take more time whether you or I want it to or not.
It's is not what anyone wants to hear, and everyone has limits to what they'll tolerate, or consider a reasonable exchange of content for time taken. Some folks will just decide that it's taken too much time, and cut their losses. Other folks may decide that they like where things are going, and hang around. Some people might leave, and then return when things are further along.
You have the power here to decide what is or is not acceptable to you, obviously.
Stuff is being worked on, at a pace which is increasing. Its up to you whether you find that pace acceptable, but I can't change the speed at which changes are made.
I'm not asking you for more time - you have to decide whether you want to 'give' the lore that time or not.
As for the terror of limits - oh I'm right with you! As a level designer, I live for design constraints spurring me to novel and inventive solutions. As a player, I want to have a reasonable level of trust that what I want to emotionally invest in isn't about to become Barbie: Fish and Spell overnight.
I agree with you.
Imagine for a moment, though, that there was an institutionalized fear that has came from exactly the things you're talking about; the backlash from the retcon, the Trundle situation, etc. You could argue that the wrong lessons were learned - that what was learned was "If you don't define it, then no-one will mind if you change it in the future".
What I'm trying to do is massage away that fear - convince folks that, as long as deep thoughtful consideration is given to decisions and their future impacts, we are not adversely limiting our creative options in the future - and instead we are inspiring them! But it's not just a single Rioter who is suffering from this burnt-fingers feeling - it's a gestalt cultural wariness that new Rioters learn without even knowing why they're learning it. I'm also far from the only Rioter who is trying to push us to a more confident world building attitude. I just happen to be the one in this thread, probably saying too much ;)
But guess what - that takes time.
See above as to the power you have over your own time, and how no-one can ask you for it.
Hellioning2 votesHonestly, I'm pretty tempted to just stop bringing up the amount of time that lore takes. It never seems to have any result. Just like Rioters saying that it takes time never seems to do anything.
And I realize that it's not what you're trying to say, but your last point really makes it sound like it's the playerbase's fault for reacting so badly to the various lore SNAFUs. And I realize that what happened to Opeli and stuff is entirely unjustifiable, but I shouldn't have to explain why that's not something the playerbase wants to hear.
I don't want Riot to 'inspire their creative options'. We're still in the retcon period, where everything is apparently on the table already. I want to know what League lore is going to look like when more of it is released, not what some people think it might look like in the future maybe if nobody minds.
Nefas1 votesI've chosen to stop giving you time.
Riot doesn't do meaningful things with the time they have been given. I grew tired of Rioters making me feel like the bad guy for having expectations about what should be considered decent lore quantity, quality, and speed when Rioters were responsible for tearing down the lore in the first place.
I'm more than willing to wait when I feel like waiting is worth it. I'm well practiced in waiting years upon years for books in a series, or long-awaited sequels to a favorite game. But those writers and designers have built up a lot of credit with work over time. They earned patience. I comfortable that when the next elder scrolls game comes out, the fact that I've invested in lore in games decades old will be rewarded. Riot hasn't earned that for me and when that track record isn't there (and frankly is negative due to the retcons), excuses and requests for time don't have anything to stand on.
The continued requests for time, the frankly nauseating winks about things soon to come that never materialize, the lack of assurance that even the new lore is on a stable footing...it all adds up.
AMYS GRAVE2 votesI'll try to add to Darrosh's comment a bit.
There is something to be said for making parts of the map relateable and impactful. If you were to do a map of the Freljord, for instance, I would be stoked to see Braum's home town labeled/referenced. Its the little details like that which give a world it's verisimilitude and leave us invested in it. This works because I know how braum has affected his community thanks to "Tomb of the Troll Boy" so i'm invested in that location. It's not just name dropping his hometown on the map, but the weight of what was done there and the history and culture of the place that helps.
If you were running a D&D campaign and said "The town of Terbisia is under siege and they are taking hostages" your players might not really care, they'll just go there because its the next thing to do in the campaign. If you say "the town you saved 3 levels ago, Terbisia, is under siege and they are holding your NPC friend Alzar hostage" now that carries some weight. The place feels real because they've been there before and they know some of the history and culture of the place.
This is something of a limitation for league because we play on one map (mostly) so the only place many players are invested in is SR. The howling abyss adds to the world and feels like a real place because we've been to the freljord now. The same thing can be said about the crystal scar and shurima. This is why some degree of map diversity would be useful for league worldbuilding, but that seems unrealistic by and large unless more maps can be created like with the thresh RGM recently and the butchers bridge map from longer ago. Of course to be successful those map creations would have to be tied to lore events like the release of some void lore in conjunction with the thresh RGM, but you've gotten away from that model for workflow reasons which is a thing i guess....
I've seen to some degree the worldbuilding team hold back (i assume to ensure that we, the players, can project ourselves onto the champions or see ourselves in the world) but that only leaves the world feeling hollow, empty, or just an uninteresting place to be. There are certainly some lore points which have worked quite well, but there are also some which don't have the effect of investing us in the world.
KoKoboto2 votesYeah Rito has a tendency to put unimportant names that never come up again throughout their lore. T B Skyen has observed a lot of this.
Im no literature analysts but its not too difficult to see the same issues occuring with this map.
Darrosh Jewfist2 votesI looked him up. He's a guy with youtube channels critiquing Riot's lore?
I watched for like 15 minutes of the Lux/Garen video skipping around (holy shit they're an hour long) but I'm really impressed by the details he offers and explanations why. I gotta agree with a lot of his comments and criticisms because it's those things that make the writing of League lore feel so amateurish.
KoKoboto2 votesYep for sure. Only reason you were downvoted and are being argued with is because of this line "remind me too much of cringe-y worldbuilding that teenagers do."
People just need to ignore emotional or non-important parts and focus on substance (funny cause Rito lore kinda lacks subtance stuff). The map is indeed filled with tons of useless information that we as readers are unlikely to see more of in future lore.
Hell the rito replies you got are pretty half-assed and don't even address your issue on substance and meaning.
I mean how could you infer this from your comment?
From what you write here, it sounds like you'd have preferred the map not to have any locations mentioned, except for Piltover?
How the hell could you interpret your comment in this way?
Or how could you interpret this from your comment?
I think you may have misinterpreted (or been misinformed) on our current stance on maps, however - we are looking to make and release more maps in the future (as fast as I can get them to you - which is frustratingly slowly).
You typed up nothing that could relate to this. Your original comment is about how the map is useless because it is just data. From Rito's practices we see that data like this is often not followed through with. They both did not really address the issue on substance.
Lanceworks4 votesYou know this may be off topic, but nothing boils my blood more than seeing two people just circlejerk each other to oblivion.
RiotBioluminescence2 votes...Hell the rito replies you got are pretty half-assed and don't even address your issue on substance and meaning.
Hi, KoKoboto,
I don't mean to be evasive; please let me explain the two quotes you've got up there.
First, you quote me where I said
From what you write here, it sounds like you'd have preferred the map not to have any locations mentioned, except for Piltover?
This is specifically in reference to Darrosh's comment
...but really everything besides Piltover seemed is of no consequence. All those extra tidbit towns and stuff just seem like after-thought to achieve a 'more details, looks more cool' effect.
I.e. the without additional supporting content, the map, as designed should not really have shown any of those additional locations beyond Piltover.
What I take it to mean, though, and as I go on to say, that Darrosh would rather that any locations mentioned on the map should have accompanying information that gives greater context. Not that we should throw the baby out with the bath water.
Secondly, you quote me saying:
I think you may have misinterpreted (or been misinformed) on our current stance on maps, however - we are looking to make and release more maps in the future (as fast as I can get them to you - which is frustratingly slowly).
And ask how I could possibly reply to Darrosh with that. Well, unfortunately you got your wires a little crossed there - as that comment was to the OP BonzaiBuddy, not to Darrosh, to specifically address:
I always hear that Riot is never going to make one because "maps might look different depending on who's making them."
I'm going to reply to Darrosh's very extensive (and helpful) reply soon, though because it's significantly more involved it deserves a more involved response and more time.
KoKoboto1 votesI.e. the without additional supporting content, the map, as designed should not really have shown any of those additional locations beyond Piltover.
What I take it to mean, though, and as I go on to say, that Darrosh would rather that any locations mentioned on the map should have accompanying information that gives greater context. Not that we should throw the baby out with the bath water.
Yes I fully understand what you meant, "it sounds like you'd have preferred the map not to have any locations mentioned", means what it means. Darrosh did not say anything that would relate to throwing babies out with the bath water though or that he would prefer the map to only have piltover. His main focus is on substance; how all these places are pretty much wasted becuase it's likely they won't be revisted again. Not too mention none of the areas are really defined. Reading any lore bits anyone can notice the trend that names are put around but have no substance behind them.
Also why do you chose to word yourself the way you do? Wouldn't it have been easier to just say "I thought he meant X and I realize now that I misinterpreted what he said." I understand if you're in the writing area you wanna be writeful but this is just normal talk. For all you know I could be a 12 year old kid and reading what you said would not have made anything more clear...
And ask how I could possibly reply to Darrosh with that. Well, unfortunately you got your wires a little crossed there - as that comment was to the OP BonzaiBuddy, not to Darrosh, to specifically address:
How unfortunate, I am pretty ignorant when it comes to wires as well.
I'm going to reply to Darrosh's very extensive (and helpful) reply soon, though because it's significantly more involved it deserves a more involved response and more time.
I feel "need more time to give a good answer" would've been everything you needed. I am all for a better answer on to why these names with no value behind them are being put into lore. Of course no spoilers.
RiotBioluminescence4 votes..Also why do you chose to word yourself the way you do? Wouldn't it have been easier to just say "I thought he meant X and I realize now that I misinterpreted what he said." I understand if you're in the writing area you wanna be writeful but this is just normal talk. For all you know I could be a 12 year old kid and reading what you said would not have made anything more clear...
Fair point. I get a bit nervous when talking to folks about stuff that has made them angry. It's so easy to misinterpret text over the internet and I don't want to make things worse with a too-blunt reply. So I tie myself in knots.
It's a rubbish reaction, and I'm sorry.
AMYS GRAVE3 votesIt's a rubbish reaction, and I'm sorry.
No its not bio, its a perfectly understandable reaction. Especially when what you say has more visibility and will be nitpicked. Take your time to craft a response you feel happy with. You're here and talking with the community and gathering feedback. You're miles ahead of many for sure.
Tesla Effect4 votesI like how for now the maps, the choice of geographical landmarks and locations all fit in describing the history of every faction we know of as of now.
Decrit3 votesMost probably we will never have a full-rendition map of Runeterra, it would kill all the innovation.
The World of warcraft development team once did a zone where there were these globes that showed up all the world, but actually only showed up the regions that were visitable at that moment. They regretted that a lot.
Chønklord3 votesI literally ran across this thread and found it interesting;
So let me put all the hubub arguing to rest here and sum it up for everyone (including Riot):
From what I understand some of the posters' issues with this map / lore stuff, is that
Riot seems to be developing 'fluff' lore stuff without meaningful and emotionally impactful story substance.
Personally, when I get involved with an awesome fantasy novel or even with a movie/tv show for example, sometimes I'll want to research and explore all the lore and pore through the minute details on everything relating to their worlds, cultures, peoples, individual characters, et al.
As someone who has played League for a few years, to be blunt, I don't give a twitch's behind about the "lore" of League. It's unfortunate and somewhat sad, because I really really like playing so many champions and have a shit ton of skins because of their cool looks, the VFX, VO lines and whatnot; but their background and story? Never even once crossed my mind to take a look.
For example I absolutely love Jhin and his obsession with '4'; sometimes when I'm feeling spicy in-game playing Jhin, I'll "cosplay" his lines and adopt his "character" while playing. But his background story? Never felt compelled or drawn to it because Riot hasn't really put emphasis on drawing in the playerbase with their game and champions' storyline.
Now, I'm sure you folks at Riot adore your characters to death, and I'm sure you really, really, really want to have us, the community, share in the romance, adventure and unique, tiny details of the world of Runeterra.
The sad fact is, either your art/story department is understaffed/underpaid, or you guys haven't really fleshed out a solid path toward building an all-encompassing world that both looks cool and has substantive details.
What do I mean by substantive details? Well, to take one of the posters' examples... you all released a map of Piltover or whatever, with some names of small cities/towns splattered throughout. And I get the intent, according to the Rioter responses in this thread, their notion is to release visual content first, then build up the world from there.
The problem is that method is not only shortsighted, but prone to never becoming complete. You simply cannot release new champions, new "visual lore" like maps, names of cities and places and people -- without first creating the entirety of each piece's backstory first.
Xayah and Rakan -- all I know about them is they're a couple, they're something called "Vastayah" or however it's pronounced, and some other champions like Rengar come from their homeland. Oh, and there's something about them fighting for their home freedom or whatever. That's it.
Besides that, when they were released, there was absolutely nothing that I noticed either on the forums, the website, or in the client itself that compelled me to learn more about them. And if I had decided to, would I even get anything more than cursory, superficial stuff like "Xayah loves Rakan! Sometimes they fight, but they really love each other! Their home was destroyed in a fire/whatever and now seek vengeance for some atrocities committed against them/their people! Bird feathers! Whew!"
What these other posters mean with their arguments is simple: build the fucking world first from the ground up. That means cross all your T's, dot all your I's, and flesh out the existing champions, their backstory, their homeland's backstories, their culture, everything.
This is Basic Fantasy Novel Writing 101 (Trust me, I have a library of how to write novels because I'm a writer, myself). You can start with the general, superficial stuff such as character names, places, et al; but at the end of the day in order to build a realistic, detailed and COMPELLING world for others to really dig into, you must flesh out all the minor details as completely as possible. Once you do this, then everything else is easycakes.
And if you have already done all this to the level of detail necessary; then why is it not being used already?
Beyond Legends1 votesUnfortuantely most of us aren't exactly planing to wait 4 or more years of content drought for things. Riot doesn't have the luxury of building things from the ground up because they aren't creating something new but completely rebuilding and overhauling areas that were eithe ignored or poorly built when they started the game. You have 40 or more character lore who were basicly either poor rip offs or simply lazily writen. It would take years for them to overhaul everything in to something coherent and that's only if they stop all development of new champions.
Beside the complaint is really comming from a known hater of riot new direction . They'll hate no matter what riot does
Darrosh Jewfist1 votesBeside the complaint is really comming from a known hater of riot new direction . They'll hate no matter what riot does
That's rich coming from a well known Riot shill.
To emphasize my point, here are some select posts from Beyond Legend's post history defending Riot.
The Institude of War isn't heavily flawed but foundationally flawed as a concept. It was a keen to horrible drawn character with messed up porpotions, terrible color balance, terrible pose and ans a poorly thougjt out theme with the only saving grace was their is tiny detail that kinda looked cool.
I think your not looking at the big picture and making a moutain out of spec of dust.
Talking down on fans who miss the old lore? Check.
The institude and the Summoners was unfortunately hasty proccess Riot made in the past. Writing and world building was clearly a side project. Reading JoJ for the most part seems to be second rate fanfic writer attempt at slice of life and politics. In fact most of the intrested story ended with being a major disapointment. I won't go into detail on the countless flaws of the old lore.
As a artist/Creator you have to learn when to drop somethinh that clearly isn't working.
Personally I rather see a new generation of lore ethuaist instead of dangling on bad old concept such as the IoW
Calling old lore fanfic tier when current lore is over-written, adjective-overloaded, purple mess? Check.
Are we really going go through this again? It's been 3 years and people don't care nor have the bloody time to fucking read 35 fucking pages of your personal opinion.
Even Riot admited it that during the earlier day riot had said the whole summoner was an lazy idea.
Hilarious because this is basically the back and forth between me and Bio. Double standards? Check.
Well there are simply alot of other stuff to do. Riot has a schedule like most other companies and has to push out changes/content.
BUT CAN'T PUSH OUT A TEXT-BASED RETCON AFTER FOUR YEARS? HMMM.... Check.
There are still too many large holes that need fix. Currently there are still 5 major faction that are still unclear that needs to be fixed. It's unfair to leave fan of these faction waiting longer to patched up a few minor ones. I bet Riot are already working on another update already and they are very bussy due to their relatively small lore team
Blind leaps of faith placed in Riot's team. "Buuuut guysssss it's Riot.... we can trust them..." Check.
Note: You see this with a lot of fanboys in other companies. The biggest fanboys I've met are usually Blizzard and Final Fantasy. They have absolute faith in these companies even when the quality is subpar.
It's basicly the game personal opinion of the lore. I rather take a “generic” well written fantasy then a lazily shitty written writing anyday the week. I mean those slice of life story was the cringe worthy, the political drama was not well thought out and Singed getting sack by blitz gets old real fast.
I'd say we just leave them alone and downvote. It prevent the disgusting circle jerking and move on waiting for the next thing.
Eventually the entire lore would be out and we can forget these people.
It's hilarious because short stories like Lux's Last Light, Garen's Story, Ahri's Story are all basically the same slice of life stories like in the JoJ.
Double standards again. Check.
Beyond Legends1 votes[deleted]
Darrosh Jewfist1 votesYes... I am rather subjective. That comes a lot when you're dealing with letters and humanities (i. e. writing). But look man, I'm just some random guy on the internet and if my criticisms sting that much then there has to be some measure of truth to them.
In the old lore's defense, they accepted the whole tabloid over-the-top theme they had going. I mean, League of Legends is called (LOL) of all things. I bet if League got released today, they wouldn't dare call it League of Legends because they'd hate how self-aware it is.
But seriously, I don't like a lot of the current lore writing.
The earthquake had struck Terbisia at dawn, the earth bucking like an unbroken colt and splitting apart in gaping fissures. Lux rode Starfire through the toppled ruin of the defensive barbican, the thirty-foot high walls of sun-bleached stone looking like Noxian siege engines had bombarded them for weeks. She guided her horse carefully between fallen blocks of masonry, heading to where a makeshift infirmary had been set up within a blue and white market pavilion.
There's excessive amounts of adjectives, flowerly language... T. B. Skyen's video on this explains much better than me. Perhaps you should watch it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBzZ%%%8o8A
Wow. Just wow. Realized you had no meaningful counterpoints so you're going straight to namecalling?
Sure, kiddo.
WiccanBKaplan2 votesSo, I asked this question a while back myself https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/10xoTGxJ-possible-updated-map-of-runeterra and @BioLuminescence answered the exact same way she had on this post (I was actually really happy to get a Rioter response on my post so this may cloud my judgement and sway my opinion).
Reading these comments makes me hella sad, mostly because I sympathize with Bio and how much pressure she is under not to break NDA, or reveal to much of Riot's Plans regarding lore, but also because of how upset a lot of my fellow Lore nerds and gamers are about the current state of information available to the player base regarding Lore and Maps in general. I too want a "Westeros Style" map so that I can understand Region relations, Capitol locations, sites of important events and how close they were to major cities, and stuff similar to that. That being said I completely agree with Riot's stance on not limiting the narrative or setting complete/final borders on what Runeterra and Valoran may look like; and here's why:
In a game that is ever changing and introducing more characters (each with their own back stories and lore) you have to understand that unlike Westeros and Tolkien's world where there is One Story and One Timeline (regardless of whether they are told by many points of view or have flashbacks), Runeterra is not like that at all. YES, it would be easier to have one story-line, start to finish, and get a fleshed out world that has a completed map with everything we lore nerds love, but RIOT cant do that unless they are willing and ready to limit themselves to a set guideline and narrative. This limits the diversity of characters and stories they can tell, because they can't create new towns, new regions, new races, new anything without messing up or changing the map and narrative they set in place.
Those worlds built by GRRM and JRRT can have a complete map and fleshed out world that isn't super "amateur world buildy" because the characters they introduce and the places you learn about have influences and importance to the narrative, POV/characters and story. They can have a map because the story is written (or thought out) and basically done, everything that is going to happen has been planned out.
Riot on the other hand doesn't have a complete story planned out or written down, they have many stories that over lap and tangle together, stories built from the individual characters they have in their game not from the need to move a story or contribute to the narrative. These individual characters that have relations to one another or no relations at all (some characters that haven't even been discovered or shown to other characters yet) are what makes the game interesting and fun not necessarily the lore behind the game (tho that is another reason I play this game). The characters that we would get from Riot in a "defined narrative" wouldn't be as cool as what we are currently getting when Riot has the ability to create new things like races, towns, realms and cities.
The "Medarda Heirloom" wasn't made/used to define the narrative or to show a completed world, but instead to add to the stories in Piltover, a City defined by Trade and Knowledge. It is only natural that the map shows the whereabouts of Trade locations and local cities because while those cities may not have any significance to the Narrative (that doesn't exist) it does have significance to the owner/user of that map. It creates depth in that story.
To end: I get why my fellow lore nerds are upset at the lack of information provided, but I hope you can understand why Riot is doing what they are doing. If it wasn't for them not limiting themselves on what they can create we would (arguably) be getting less interesting/enjoyable champions and stories. I also really want to thank Bio for putting up with us nerds and some less than enjoyable convos (when she didn't have to) and trying to get us to understand. You are the best Bio and Thanks <3
