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Azir: Time and perspective

rand0mredneck··47 votes·6,165 views

With Taliyah's lore stuff and her teaser, I've seen a lot of people suddenly claiming Azir was evil all along. My 2 cents on the matter disagrees. It's all about the perspective. Azir was a good ruler, but still technically a dictator. Cause that's just how empires work. He also died right after he declared the slaves free, cause of Xerath. Now, Shurima collapses, and her people splinter to the corners of the world. Including the slaves. Naturally, they probably weren't happy and never knew he abolished it right before he got vaporized. He goes down in history as just another slave holding emperor, with the added strike of being the LAST emperor. Ages go by, and suddenly he pops back up in the desert, as a bird looking demi-god looking to restart his empire. People naturally know the tale of him that was passed down and told. Including Taliyah.

TL;DR: Azir isn't evil. His legend has just been warped over the ages by time and misinformation.

Least that's how I see it.

30 Comments

RiotBioluminescence28 votes

I imagine (and I know pretty much no more than you guys do - I'm just theorizing) that for the sake of several generations of fallen Shuriman's egos, maybe the old empire was described as something undesirable?

If you live in the desert, barely surviving against the elements and invaders and the Xer'Sai, etc. then I'm not sure it'd be very useful to tell your children about how wonderful the empire used to be. Maybe it'd be more encouraging to tell them it was a sick, power-hungry, hedonic time and place that was rightfully struck down for its pride.

Don't be like the old Emperors, kids, or you'll be struck down with earthquakes and a horrible death! Hard work and humility - that's what's good/right/useful to a culture of survivors in the desert.

(Again, just my own personal thoughts on the subject :)

Draco Aleksander7 votes

{quoted}

I imagine (and I know pretty much no more than you guys do - I'm just theorizing) that for the sake of several generations of fallen Shuriman's egos, maybe the old empire was described as something undesirable?

If you live in the desert, barely surviving against the elements and invaders and the Xer'Sai, etc. then I'm not sure it'd be very useful to tell your children about how wonderful the empire used to be. Maybe it'd be more encouraging to tell them it was a sick, power-hungry, hedonic time and place that was rightfully struck down for its pride.

Don't be like the old Emperors, kids, or you'll be struck down with earthquakes and a horrible death! Hard work and humility - that's what's good/right/useful to a culture of survivors in the desert.

(Again, just my own personal thoughts on the subject :)

You're about right though, anthropologically speaking. We see this kind of usage of perspective-based history all the time. While it can be socially useful, it's a huge pain in the ass for anyone trying to get at the truth of time, since adding fiction to fact and having multiple versions of the same story obfuscates reality. Of course, that further informs on what's important to a culture, and a number of other things I could ramble on for a small research paper's worth of text.

RiotBioluminescence10 votes

[{quoted}](name=Draco Aleksander,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=g77hETkf,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2016-05-03T14:58:58.015+0000)

You're about right though, anthropologically speaking. We see this kind of usage of perspective-based history all the time. While it can be socially useful, it's a huge pain in the ass for anyone trying to get at the truth of time, since adding fiction to fact and having multiple versions of the same story obfuscates reality. Of course, that further informs on what's important to a culture, and a number of other things I could ramble on for a small research paper's worth of text.

Sounds interesting to me :D

And yes - we think we know history, but every time we look a little closer at what we think we know, we find even more layers of embroidering the truth whether accidentally, well-intentionedly, or even maliciously. Even our own memories lie to us on a regular basis.

nosafterburn1 votes

to the victors go the spoils (and history) [zombie-brand-mindblown]

Draco Aleksander1 votes

That's why history is so fascinating to me, it's layers upon layer of information! Even if you have the mathematical truth of a situation (so many people lived here, this many crops were gathered in this season, etc.), the various opinions of the individuals at the time build a greater cultural "truth" which must also be respected and studied. Past the standard washing of fact that comes with the victor's version of the story, even those on the losing side change things to be more in their favor than reality. On top of that, especially when you have two or more different cultures experiencing the same event, the interpretations can be wildly different, and can even incite wars themselves! Peeling back these interpretations and getting at the reasoning behind them is such an interesting way to learn to understand the peoples involved.

Kaillooh2 votes

Meh ! In the same time, people are naturally nostalgic. How many of us have heard one day : "When XXX was President/Prime Minister it was way better" ? Even if it was actually not better, humans have a certain tendancy to love the good ol' time.

To me, this can be applied to Shurima too :)

Draco Aleksander1 votes

It absolutely can! Everyone comes out of an event with their own unique individual experience, their interpretation of which is guided by the culture they were raised in. This, in turn, affects the future of that culture and how their descendents will view events in the future. Eventually, history becomes a story, becomes a legend, becomes myth, and the original truth of a situation can be supplanted with another entirely (for better or worse).

RoodToob1 votes

Ah yes, the standard Bioluminescence tag of : I DONT KNOW ANYTHING IM GUESSING HERE

Zok721 votes

In many ways Taliyah's people seem to me similar to the descendants of the Israelites. They have a story of the decadent evil empire who enslaved them and then who were destroyed by their own greed and hubris. The people of the weaver escaped shurima much like the jews escaped egypt. Noone is excited about pharoah coming back regardless of the qualities of the person who holds that title.

morris115 votes

Actions make a human a hero. Death makes a hero a legend. Time makes a legend a myth. Myths make humans take actions. ######Thought this would be relevant to the lore. Sorry

Lauchmelder14 votes

This can be summed up by 1 small sentence:

"The winner writes history."

Makuta Teridax6 votes

Except everyone lost, and only Nasus remained.

I hope the Narrative Team is able to give us an insight as to what does it feel to be alone in the desert for millennia after your civilization falls.

Melledoneus3 votes

Boring. That's how Nasus is able to farm stacks with so much patience. He also took up knitting.

HighH12 votes

Nope,he jumped dimensions and learned of the internet where he studied the dankest of all humanity

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaCodgL9cvk

SirHeavyScrotum9 votes

Pretty in depth thought for some random redneck

rand0mredneck2 votes

{quoted}

Pretty in depth thought for some random redneck

I'll take that as a compliment.

CoTheSlow4 votes

We are yet to actually see what Azir is doing in his new city. We know just as much as Taliyah knows. Just look at all the talk it is creating on the boards. That is the point of this story. A god we realistically know very little about has been reborn and seemingly wants to retake what was once his. We know nothing of his real intentions or what he is actually doing with the city. We only have rumours or things explicitly stated by him. He very well could be massacring innocents or he could be curing all diseases. The fact is we don't know, and that makes it so much more frightening.

Cressilia3 votes

Who writes the history books? The survivors. Who survives? The victors.

Average Bard3 votes

Real History time: Slavery back in Egypt was nothing like how we imagine slavery today. Back then when people were conquered they were given a certain length of time they were required to work and do tasks of the empire, and then their family were given citizenship and were freed from slavery. The slavery we think of is called Chattle Slavery. This is where you are never free, no one in your generation is free, and it was created by the European conquers and immigrants who captured the natives of the Americas and forced them to work and never freed them. Old world slavery and Chattle Slavery are very different. Don't let people tell you that everyone else was just as bad as the Anglo Chattle Slavery... Chattle slavery is by far the most brutal and horrendous. My sources are both of my White, Southern History Professors in a Texas University.

Melledoneus1 votes

Ooh, which University?

Average Bard1 votes

I'm going to side with my better judgement and just keep it as a Texas University to protect my professors identities. It's a state funded university, so that narrows it down.

Melledoneus1 votes

Just name the colors and I'll know.

Average Bard1 votes

... i mean yea, not much of challenge to figure it out then.

Teridax682 votes

You're likely right that Azir and his empire had their stories distorted over time. We can sympathize with Azir because we know what happened with Xerath and the ascension ritual, but to the rest, he likely ended up being remembered as an irresponsible and megalomaniacal boy-emperor, who destroyed his own empire with his hubris, which isn't all that inaccurate. He had the best intentions for his people, but as Xerath himself said, it was too late, so his final gesture of freeing Shurima's slaves ended up being lost as his empire collapsed.

Another issue Taliyah and the other people of Shurima might have with Azir is that they have fundamentally different ideas of what's good for them: Azir still remembers the time when Shurima was the greatest civilization in Runeterra, with a prosperous organized society that was united in their (and his) vision to expand their greatness upward and outward. Trouble is, that was millenia ago, and Shurima's people have moved on since then, to the point where their culture, structure and ways of life have become completely different. They're no longer a unified civilization, they're a diverse and scattered range of tribes, caravans and settlements each fighting their own struggles and living their own lives. It makes no sense for them to unite into a single Shuriman civilization because that's not what Shurima is anymore, and Azir has absolutely no idea or understanding of this (he probably wouldn't want to understand either).

Rivenwind2 votes

Well, we know from when azir had a brief moment in time with sivir during the ascension mode and the original shuriman lore overhaul that he seems relatively ambivalent to forcing anyone to do anything. All he seemed to do iirc was encourage sivir to recognize her lineage and join him to become part of his vision.

Even his dialogue follows this, "You need not follow, but you must witness." But whether or not that applies to previous shuriman "property" like the tribes (rather than his own blood, like sivir) is something that remains to be seen. I feel like there's a whole leona/diana level of adversity here that can just be completely resolved with a good dose of perspective and communication. But if Taliyah doesn't play it cool and confronts Azir guns ablazing neither one of them might have that opportunity.

It'll be really interesting to see how the story plays out, though it'll likely be permanently frozen like so many other story-driven conflicts like leona/diana and shen/zed. Really disappointing.

Smithney1 votes

With how little we know about Azir, it's no wonder everybody keeps murmuring about the true nature of the Emperor. And everyone will keep on until we are revealed more, as it should be.

If I were to gather existing evidence for any argument regarding Azir, I would start with the expanded lore. Judging from what we were provided, it seems that the relationship between Azir and Xerath is the likely key to understanding the Emperor's will. As far as we know, the Empire of Shurima fell on a miscommunication between a ruler and his frustrated close servant. Azir was probably more (or less?) than simply an emperor of a mighty nation, while Xerath's thirst for revenge had surely been nurtured by events out of Azir's hands. We haven't seen more of either one's life than the snippet near the very end, and exactly because of that we cannot predict what story will unfurl.

Perhaps you are right that Azir wants good before anything, but he might as well fall back on ruthless methods when restoring the Empire or searching for Xerath. From what little I know, I imagine Azir to be the same kind of ruler as Akhnaten from Waltari's Egyptian: good-willed and naïve, ambitious and vain. The true nature remains a mystery, and even when revealed, there will likely be both those who praise, and those who condemn the Emperor.

TL;DR If we can somehow guess the Azir's intentions, it would probably be based on the expanded lore, but we can't be sure yet.

Dataless1 votes

It's a classic case of history being distorted because nobody now can remember it as it was. WE know through Azir's lore that he was a proud, loving, and compassionate dictator. He loved his people and wanted to do what was best for them, it was this very love that allowed him to Ascend after his resurrection. I mean, for crying out loud, his last act as a mortal man was to end the tradition of slavery which had probably been going on for thousands of years. If he were an evil being it wouldn't have worked, or he would have been granted a false Ascendancy like Xerath. (And to speak to Xerath as a character, he probably felt like complete GARBAGE once he was given his freedom with the knowledge that he had just betrayed the man who freed him, but at that point he was too far gone for it to matter anyway).

The problem is WE know that because WE were there to watch it, through his lore entires.

Nobody else in modern Runeterra knows the truth. So everyone just assumes the worst.

Xulsigae1 votes

I'm still wondering how Sivir is a descendant of Azir... Taliyah might have words for her.

rand0mredneck1 votes

{quoted}

I'm still wondering how Sivir is a descendant of Azir... Taliyah might have words for her.

Azir did have kids. Probably a few illegitimate ones, too. She's probably descended from one of them.

Xulsigae1 votes

It's never said how she is. I believe Riot actually said 'we want to preserve the mystery' but there is no mystery. Someone either survived, or it's a plothole. It's stated his family died in the destruction.

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