If Poppy has been Roaming Demacia since its Founding without Losing Her Mind...

A Superb Villain··72 votes·4,954 views

Just how long did it take Veigar to lose his?

If Poppy can run about the countryside for centuries, possibly millennia, without succumbing to the madness that consumes all Yordles separated from their own kind, how many years would Veigar need to be imprisoned in Noxus before he went stark raving mad? Excluding any undisclosed evidence that might prove contrary, The Tiny Master of Evil could have been locked up for nearly as long as Xerath, if not longer.

Was he chained up during Mordekaisor's reign? Was Veigar simply locked in the basement, forgotten by all until Noxus was founded? Has nothing really changed? Is the empathy between Yordles no longer a factor of their sanity

For all we know, he could have been stuck in a hole for five minutes or five thousand years.

Please, Riot, give us some information; the thought of Veigar potentially being trapped in solitary confinement before Noxus even came to be fills me with stars and rainbows, which is terrible and sparkly.

57 Comments

Ebonmaw Dragon29 votes

Poppy has been with a lot of "heroes" along her journey, (And its friend of Galio, who also is old)... in orther hand, Veigar was alone in his jail

Ralanr3 votes

Isolation often causes people to go insane. I know it has not good effects with me. That's why I opt for roommates in college.

A Superb Villain23 votes

The problem with the introduction of new lore is that we don't even know how extensive the changes have been.

Before, most assumed Yordles possessed a lifespan roughly equivalent to modern humans, but now they seem to be without age and regarded as signs of luck. The concept of Yordle empathy may no longer apply, or follow different rules.

Such lacking information places the validity of Veigar's and Teemo's respective lore into question.

Ebonmaw Dragon20 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Superb Villain,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=V5qLfmkB,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2015-12-09T01:20:01.512+0000)

The problem with the introduction of new lore is that we don't even know how extensive the changes have been.

Before, most assumed Yordles possessed a lifespan roughly equivalent to modern humans, but now they seem to be without age and regarded as signs of luck. The concept of Yordle empathy may no longer apply, or follow different rules.

Such lacking information places the validity of Veigar's and Teemo's respective lore into question.

Yeah, that is the main problem of all the new lore, lets just hope that the isolation will be kept and the changes will not be drastic.

Narasimha6 votes

I'd guess they'd probably just up the level of suffering, from 'being in a jail' to 'experimented on to see if Yordles really are lucky'.

Or something along those lines.

The Whamboozler15 votes

They tied him up, gave him a noogie and assaulted him with short jokes for three days straight. It was only then that his mind finally snapped.

AbodyHUN6661 votes

Guy hire this Rito.

Mistress Madoka4 votes

I think it's safe to Assume many Aspects of Teemo's lore is intact. While it's a Skin and so not a canon story, the VO Lines for Omega Squad Teemo Suggest everything his lore has already suggested: That He's a Cold blooded killing machine and his happy-go-lucky Nice-ness around allies was merely an act.

Teemo will always be a Sociopath

Xyrei1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Madoka KanameSan,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=V5qLfmkB,comment-id=000000010001,timestamp=2015-12-09T06:04:46.954+0000)

I think it's safe to Assume many Aspects of Teemo's lore is intact. While it's a Skin and so not a canon story, the VO Lines for Omega Squad Teemo Suggest everything his lore has already suggested: That He's a Cold blooded killing machine and his happy-go-lucky Nice-ness around allies was merely an act.

Teemo will always be a Sociopath

Uh no, Teemo isnt putting an act up when around others, he has just found a way to shut off the "yordle-y" weakness to isolation making himself able to kill without feeling guilt. He isnt a Sociopath, he is infact the complete opposite as he is friends with many other yordles and is possible canon in a romantic relationship with tristana. We can see this from many quotes that Rumbles Super Galaxy skin has about jealously towards teemo and we all know rumbles whole goal was to impress tristana for whatever reason.

Maximum Morde2 votes

{quoted} we all know rumbles whole goal was to impress tristana for whatever reason.

Because Lulu is batshit crazy and Poppy didn't have her makeover yet, leaving only Tristana.

EROTIC RAID BOSS1 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Superb Villain,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=V5qLfmkB,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2015-12-09T01:20:01.512+0000)

The problem with the introduction of new lore is that we don't even know how extensive the changes have been.

Before, most assumed Yordles possessed a lifespan roughly equivalent to modern humans, but now they seem to be without age and regarded as signs of luck. The concept of Yordle empathy may no longer apply, or follow different rules.

Such lacking information places the validity of Veigar's and Teemo's respective lore into question.

I bet it is new rules and my guess is it was even alluded to in poppys lore.

She mentions a yordle without a purpose in life is.. bad or whatever. My guess is veigar went too long without a purpose

Meep Man1 votes

a Noxian Jail

Marbelara19 votes

Maybe it has to deal with her high tolerance to solitude. Like Teemo.

Maybe she finds enough kinship with humans to sustain her, like Lulu.

Veigar was just an ordinary yordle. Thats his tragedy. He wasn't meant for the conditions he was put under and it broke him.

If it was Teemo, perhaps he'd make it out of there in better shape?

(Also, I'll delete my thread not to doublepost on the same issue Dx getting to it now!)

Transgressor13 votes

The thing is Poppy was never really seperated from what she considers her own: Demacians.

The thing is Veigar was fucking imprisoned in a dungeon. There's a big fucking difference between roaming the land in search of something, and being stuck in an infested shitwhole underneath the earth somewhere.

The Ecdysiast12 votes

Perhaps "separated from their own kind" doesn't refer to yordles.

Maybe it refers to whoever they consider to be attached to, which in Poppy's case is _all of Demacia. _

Painkiller9904 votes

{quoted}

Perhaps "separated from their own kind" doesn't refer to yordles.

Maybe it refers to whoever they consider to be attached to, which in Poppy's case is _all of Demacia. _

This is probably the comment everyone should be looking at. Think about it for a sec. Lulu left the dimension of Runeterra and traveled to another dimension (the Glade) and didn't grow insane. Some might say she is but she merely acts like a child unlike someone evil. Heimerdonger has been in Piltover for a while along with other yordles traveling to Piltover. Although they may be a few in a city the travel itself is lonely and no where in the lore does it say they see each other in Piltover.

Another thought is that old yordles may not feel the "attachment" Take Gnar for example. Although he was frozen no where does it mention him being crazy or having a need for anything. This would also explain Lulu's lore further. Maybe this "attachment" was a curse or something. Hope you enjoyed the theory!

And to answer the earlier question of how old it could have taken Veigar to become evil. Im going to go with over 200 years. If I can remember that is the amount of time Lulu spent in the Glade and her only two allies are Veigar and Gnar. This would seem to imply she met Veigar BEFORE she was taken to the Glade.

Tesla Effect9 votes

Mordekaiser imprisons Veigar , Veigar gets creepy cause of dark magical influences , yordle takes over the world, the end.

A Superb Villain11 votes

My favorite part was the ending.

Malicious Metal9 votes

A connection between Veigar and Mordekaiser would be maliciously marvelous.

Gentzer3 votes

As a Veigar main, I welcome our new metal lore overlords

CasterGilgamesh1 votes

nah sorry Mordekaiser there is only room for one here! praise Veigar

ThePartyLeader8 votes

Who says poppy didn't lose her mind? Crazy people often look for things that aren't there.

A Superb Villain21 votes

Or perhaps she is the only sane Yordle to begin with; Poppy considers them all odd while the majority of the Yordles we have as champions are more than a little unhinged.

Ralanr17 votes

Considering how she has spent a lot of time with humans (centuries even) there's probably a values dissonance.

Sharjo8 votes

I'm of the opinion that in the new lore it was a deal with Tahm Kench that brought ruin and despair upon Veigar, and that's what drove him to insanity. Perhaps that's what delivered Veigar unto his imprisonment.

A Superb Villain9 votes

But does that not present a Catch-22 circumstance? Tahm hates Yordles because they are immune to his temptations, and as such Veigar would already need to be corrupted before accepting Tahm's offers, which would require Tahm to have corrupted him prior, which would be pointless if he was already corrupted.

Crett5 votes

Veigar's the only yordle not on Tahm's Rivals list. Probably has a reason but I have no idea what

A Superb Villain5 votes

But we are not given an exact reason for why. It could be that Tahm managed to successfully tempt a Yordle, or he feels no need to do so because Veigar is already a power-mongering megalomaniac.

Sharjo7 votes

I don't remember the reason he dislikes yordles being that they're uncorruptable. Was that from the Tahm Q&A?

In any case even if they were uncorruptable I still reckon Tahm would still want to try. I figure he's a guy who would hold a grudge.

Sharjo8 votes

But that doesn't indicate anything as to whether they're immune to his machinations or not. Given the seeming good spirit nature of yordles that Poppy's lore implies, it makes more sense, at least to me, that Tahm's rivalry with yordles stems from them being diametrically opposed to him as a demon; he stands to gain from suffering where yordles seek to be happy and joyful.

My assumption was that Tahm likes chowing down on yordle despair specifically because yordles, given their mentallity as a species, makes them especially volatile if they're driven to despair. The vices of yordle would be particularly delicious considering how pure they are as a people. With that in mind it wouldn't surprise me that Tahm, before he was known as Tahm, went and gave offered his services to a young yordle looking to make his way in the world, only to have that journey end with the yordle losing everything he owned and cared about, plus being incarcerated in essentially solitary confinment; a living hell for yordles.

While I may be wrong and Tahm's apparent lack of care for Veigar might stem from Veigar just being a corrupted yordle who has turned from what he was and is more like Tahm and other demons than a yordle (in terms of what he seeks to bring about), I like to lean towards Veigar making that bargain with the River King, just because I feel like it's a cool story in itself.

A Superb Villain8 votes

This is why we need the lore right now.

Ralanr3 votes

Damn it Rito!

MEMEME6701 votes

Isn't art about interpretation? I'm not very good at understanding art, really, so maybe I'm wrong on this, but I was under the interpretation that open-ended stories like this can very often be a good thing, because they allow for speculation and wonder and revealing things one bit at a time, which allows people to come to their own conclusions and interpret it how they want.

Which would seem to mean, getting the lore right now is the opposite of what you want.

A Superb Villain1 votes

{quoted}

Isn't art about interpretation? I'm not very good at understanding art, really, so maybe I'm wrong on this, but I was under the interpretation that open-ended stories like this can very often be a good thing, because they allow for speculation and wonder and revealing things one bit at a time, which allows people to come to their own conclusions and interpret it how they want.

Truth be told, art is a very nebulous concept. What may be considered a thought-provoking piece by one is little more than the self-aggrandizing pretense of another. As an aspiring artist, even I have difficulty determining what is art and what is not. Personal taste, preconceived notions, etc. are all factors in how we evaluate "art."

Lecture aside, open ended stories can be good, and frequently are, as they permit an audience to draw their own conclusion, often through the use of subtle suggestions given by an author. Just as an open-ended story can be good, so too can they be bad, particularly through poor execution; ambiguity through narrative tropes designed to lead readers to a junction that permits them to choose which path is most likely, and consequently satisfies their desire for conclusion, is fine, simply leaving a story hanging while raising further questions and no direction is not.

Riot's problem is not through gradually unveiling a story, it is when new stories contradict those previously established, and this issue is compounded by the fact they refuse to comment on any discrepancies created. Ask any writer and they will tell you that breaking the rules of your own universe, after stating them as fact previously, is the fastest way to lose an audience. While that may not be Riot's intention, it certainly appears that way to an audience.

Which would seem to mean, getting the lore right now is the opposite of what you want.

Getting the lore right now would clear up issues caused by preceding information. Getting the story, however, would spoil the entertainment of reading. I am asking for lore, the details that provide a place for a story to be told.

MEMEME6702 votes

Ask any writer and they will tell you that breaking the rules of your own universe, after stating them as fact previously, is the fastest way to lose an audience. While that may not be Riot's intention, it certainly appears that way to an audience.

I dont think you give Riot enough credit here. They were essentially forced to make a working model of the lore when their game exploded in popularity, and it turned out that model for the lore didn't really make for the experience they wanted. So instead of stick with lore worse than what we have now, they bit the bullet and retconned it, and it takes a lot to recover from something like that.

Getting the lore right now would clear up issues caused by preceding information. Getting the story, however, would spoil the entertainment of reading. I am asking for lore, the details that provide a place for a story to be told.

This, I think, is fair. It seems like Riot wants to expand the lore with small pieces here and there (whether that be stories or small videos, etc), and then push it forward with large events. Assuming this to be true, the rate at which these large events happen feels somewhat too slow at the moment.

EDIT: Also, I would say that art has general socially-defined parameters and 'rules', so to say, and my comment was meant to mean that I may have misunderstood one of those, nothing so deep as what is and isn't art. (In my personal opinion, something intended as art is art, but in my personal opinion art has a static definition (it represents what the creator intended it to), which I believe is not in line with how most people look at it.)

Gentzer1 votes

If that's the story they go for I will be a happy man

Bârd7 votes

She talks to the hammer.

333lom5 votes

Wow, now this thread got me thinking. This will just be my speculation, but I got excited by the idea:

We've been given the information that Yordles live extremely long in the new lore, even though they probably had human-like lifespan in the original lore. Poppy is alive since the founding of Demacia, even perhaps a bit longer than that. And it looks like it is emphasized that it's very important for her to have a purpose. A Yordle without a purpose is a catastrophe. Maybe they are capable of incredibly long lifespans as long as they have purpose? It's also said that Yordles have some kind of innate magic. Who knows, maybe they were magically altered species, for all we know. By who knows whom or how. Maybe a strange spaceship fell from the sky and gave them sentience alongside magic, if Riot decides to keep the Mothership from the Old Lore (pls Rito it's an epic part of lore).

Also, Mordekaiser has been shown to have had his last, I note, last reign, how long ago? A thousand years ago? Before he was taken down and his infamous skull-fortress seized. These are all elements of introduction. What if...

A thousand years ago, Mordekaiser finally fell. The army that took over the skull-fortress would found Noxus in the future within that very stronghold. But when they explored what they had just conquered, in the ~~basement ~~ dungeon they found a small creature, covered in black fur. But nobody dared approach it, there was a sense of ominous evil surrounding it. We now know that was Veigar they found, locked away during Mordekaiser's rule (as you suggested). He's perhaps, 1500 years old? Maybe even 2000? All those years spent chained up in darkness, but he did have a purpose. To escape and take revenge on the entire world. All of his hatred boiled inside him while he was locked away. But I find this to be very similar to Xerath's story. I still can't compare Veigar's and Xerath's timeline, for that we would need a relation between Shurima and Mordekaiser's rule. Have the ancient heroes of Shurima ascended to fight against the Watchers, or Mordekaiser? Anyway, it could be possible to create a difference between Xerath and Veigar this way: Xerath's primary goal, revenge, was kind of fulfilled. The empire that enslaved him was destroyed. Now he seeks to be free and achieve the supreme power. Veigar on the other hand, is free now, but his search is not a search for power for its own sake as it is for Xerath, but rather for achieving his goal, and that's revenge for all those years spent locked. They both have what the other one is searching for. For Yordle company and sanity, I believe that can still be kept. Maybe Poppy's a bit different from other Yordles, and so she only needs purpose to stay sane. So maybe it's a combo of companionship + purpose that keeps Yordles alive and sane. Veigar on the other hand, had no empathy from his kind, but he definitely had purpose. Alas, that purpose got twisted during all that time and he ended up the way he did. Maybe even sunlight plays a factor in their mental health?

Now, what if Demacia was founded in response to the foundation of Noxus? That they didn't just randomly come to be at the same time, and for some reason started to clash. In Poppy's new lore we're told that those caravans of people were heading for a place where they could found a nation of just - perhaps in contrast to Noxus. That implies that they already knew of a nation, which they disliked. This would mean that, even though Poppy is old - she's definitely younger than Veigar. Now I wonder how old Lulu is. Perhaps she's older than Veigar?

Westonbirt4 votes

Yet she never learned a good joke.

Dengeden3 votes

These threads are pure gold, I love these musings [slayer-pantheon-popcorn]

It seems pretty clear to me that Poppy gets treated like a hero and she's too dense focused to notice. She also gets license to explore wherever she wants. I think that's partly why Teemo wandered off on his own so often. In other words, another Yordle instinct.

UomoAfide2 votes

From all these informations i'd say that the Yordle feels more like the legendary Fae of the old gaelic tradition now, but that could just be my impression.

OurLestrade2 votes

Remember Galio's cute little story with her?

Trolosaurus2 votes

Who's to say she hasn't? She hasn't figured out she's the hero after all this time. It's been centuries. I highly doubt she's that thick. It's quite possible she's gone senile.

beany1 votes

If we assume demacia began with the lightshield dynasty it really isn't that old considering most kings rule for about 30 years (and we're still in the middle of jarvan the 3rd's reign). That would make poppy around 90 years old which isn't too unbelievable for a fantasy race (like elves).

Rozzeta1 votes

Because Poppy was not very Yordle-eske to begin with.

Lintu Puck1 votes

If I recall correctly, Veigar suffered more then just solitary confinement...but I think the lore says the poor guy was also tortured, not to mention Noxians aren't the nicest bunch.

FloRaider421 votes

If yordles live forever now why was Lulu so upset about wasting some years in the Glade ? ...Or was she there for multiple millenia ??? Could also give some interesting new spin on why she is veigars friend since both lack a good purpose and have been entrapped for a long time.

Togekiss241 votes

There is a difference between being alone and being imprisoned and confined. The lore Pop has is ambiguous, but there could be a chance that she has had at least some, even minor levels of interaction with passersby, or even the fact that she is surrounded by people was enough to keep her sanity, despite living a withdrawn lifestyle until meeting her mentor.

Veigar was imprisoned, cut off not only from Yordle interaction, but ANY interaction whatsoever. Humans irl, and just about any social animal will become anxious and driven to insanity when confined like this for a long period of time, and in LoL the effect on Yordles is simply greater.

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