I wanted to say thanks for making Zoe

Ant·Mar 24, 2018·52 votes·11,694 views

Now that some of the Zoe hate has died down, I just wanted to take the time to thank Riot and CertainlyT for making this champion. Long story inbound.

I've been playing League since early 2012. At various points, I've mained the likes of Lulu, Lux, Anivia, Malzahar, Teemo and Sona. I'm naturally drawn towards cute, colorful, high-energy, free-spirited characters. Initially, I was totally obsessed with Lulu. She had come out 2 weeks prior to when I started playing so I got to spend the whole week playing her via the free rotation. I thought she was the most amazing character, design-wise, that I'd ever seen in a game. I mained her for a long time. I spent a lot of my early days as a new player on League slowly learning how to use her skills (the fact that she had different effects for enemy/ally really tripped me up a lot). I bought all of her skins, made an alt account with the name "Lulu" in it, bought the Lulu emotes (Delightify and Cup-Yay).

Fast-foward to the animation of a shimmering bubble that shoots into the fountain and puts people to sleep at the start of a game.

"What in the world is this?" I asked. I was very curious by the in-game teaser, but then I read Riot's remarks on the matter.

"We also wanted to take this chance to do something a bit more playful and bubbly as opposed to the dark and serious champions we’ve done recently. The new mage will have unique abilities that haven’t been seen before in League, so hold onto your summoner spells and don’t fall asleep, because change is coming… cataclysmic change. Also, sparkles!"

Suddenly, I went from curious to buzzing with anticipation. "Is this going to be another Lulu-type character?"

Then her Champion teaser dropped. My first reactions of it when I messaged my friends went like this:

"LOL she's cute

And potentially very obnoxious

My new main?

We have a Disney character on the rift now

Very annoying

Well that settles it. My new main"

Little did I know that would actually come to be the case.

I must have watched that teaser a dozen times. Here's this obnoxiously happy character in League of Legends. She's jumping across the rift, using three Flashes in a row, being a massive nuisance for her enemies. When she showed up on the PBE I couldn't wait to get a few games in as her. Just like when I first started playing Lulu, Zoe was confusing as hell to control. But, little by little, I got the hang of it and she's now the most fun aspect of the game I've had playing this game in a long time.

Everything about her kit is so much fun. Landing mile-long sleep bubbles is the most satisfying thing ever. However, I tend to focus on the character design aspects. As far as Zoe's character goes, she's perfect. She's bubbly and obnoxiously innocent. She reminds me way too much of myself when I was a little kid. She sings randomly, talks way too much, makes up her own lyrics to songs, makes up words, gets mad when she messes up (miss Q's). The little things about her in-game model are great. Her hair is bigger than she is, she turns to the summoner and sticks out her tongue, she slips and falls randomly when she stops walking. Every time I look at this character, it genuinely makes me happy. She is amazing and I love everything about her.

I embraced the consensus of her being 'annoying' and 'cancerous' and thought it was great how people got mad over her. It made me like the character even more. However, I was really disheartened by the genuine hate for the character — both for her personality and because of her kit. I knew she was going to be aggravating, but the community had this almost universal hate for her and it was not a good time to admit you liked Zoe. I'm happy they nerfed her into the ground and then re-adjusted her numbers and abilities to be a lot less ridiculous. Now I can actually play her without her getting banned 90% of the time, or picked by the enemy team the other 10%.

tl;dr: Zoe is the most perfect Champion I've ever played. She's annoyingly bubbly, high-energy and free-spirited. I see a lot of myself in this character. She hits all the right notes for me and I identify with the character more than any other Champion in the game.

Thank you CertainlyT and everyone else involved so much for this awesome character. You got a lot of flack for designing her, but she's drawn me into the game more than any other Champion ever has.

108 Comments

SEKAIMar 24, 201833 votes

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Zoe/Development

#Designers

Gameplay

Bradford “CertainlyT” Wenban

Narrative

Odin “WAAAARGHbobo” Shafer

Artwork

Jessica Oyhenart

Elena 'Hellstern' Bespalova

Visual

Sunny 'Kindlejack' Koda

Tyson Murphy

Anna 'Newmilky' Nikonova

Larry 'TheBravoRay' Ray

#Credits

Voice Actor

Erica Lindbeck

Attached Concept Art

Tyson Murphy

CertainlyT is only responsible for the gameplay section of Zoe, which is easily the worst part of Zoe's package and in fact is one of the worst kit (from design and balance stand-point) ever made in League.

The credit of Zoe's thematic design and artworks go to the other ladies and gentlemen outlined in that infobox.

Votable JesterMar 24, 201815 votes

Well as for me, her gameplay is great too (after they adjusted her numbers and made cleanse stuff properly work on her E).

She has great high and low moments with her W in teamfights and those mile-long Es. She is extremely vulnerable with bad positioning despite what the gameplay boards say. She also has a much more interesting burst pattern than other mages since her kit is easily body blocked, delayed, and doesn't include a "press R to kill" combo.

As much as other people hate her, I love how dynamic she is while remaining effectively immobile except when she picks up flash (which is one of her times to shine).

SEKAIMar 24, 201828 votes

[{quoted}](name=Votable Jester,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=UJRZARik,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-03-24T16:37:01.736+0000)

Well as for me, her gameplay is great too (after they adjusted her numbers and made cleanse stuff properly work on her E).

She has great high and low moments with her W in teamfights and those mile-long Es. She is extremely vulnerable with bad positioning despite what the gameplay boards say. She also has a much more interesting burst pattern than other mages since her kit is easily body blocked, delayed, and doesn't include a "press R to kill" combo.

As much as other people hate her, I love how dynamic she is while remaining effectively immobile except when she picks up flash (which is one of her times to shine).

Her gameplay design betrays every single rational design philosophy. Old Nid issue on a full box of steroid? Check. Literal RNGesus and shockingly binary play pattern encouraged by W? Check. E being so unbelievably overloaded it was like the power budget of 3 ultimates being crammed into 1 NORMAL spell and required a gut so extreme it cut out like 60-70% of the spell out of the initial version? Check. Some people see that as ""innovative"", but I see that as posing a selfie with a loaded handgun to the head, there is reason why people don't do that but then this guy does it, even right after seeing someone already died from accidental discharge right in front of his face (Nid rework); it's not ""innovative"", it's just stupid and wrong. There is a difference between innovation and thinking outside of the box, and jumping off a cliff.

Zoe currently is only short of being officially confirmed a rework, right after just being released. Her design is utterly broken in all kinds of technicalities, it's kind of amazing someone can fuck up so badly as it's almost like they actually tried REALLY HARD to fuck up this bad.

hhaavviikkMar 24, 201810 votes

[{quoted}](name=Votable Jester,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=UJRZARik,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2018-03-24T16:37:01.736+0000)

Well as for me, her gameplay is great too (after they adjusted her numbers and made cleanse stuff properly work on her E).

She has great high and low moments with her W in teamfights and those mile-long Es. She is extremely vulnerable with bad positioning despite what the gameplay boards say. She also has a much more interesting burst pattern than other mages since her kit is easily body blocked, delayed, and doesn't include a "press R to kill" combo.

As much as other people hate her, I love how dynamic she is while remaining effectively immobile except when she picks up flash (which is one of her times to shine).

of course zoe is fun to play, it's typical certainlyT champions, great fun to play as, hair pulling frustrating to play against

SpecterVonBarenMar 24, 20184 votes

Meh, I still think his previous three original creations are far worse than Zoe.

AntMar 24, 20182 votes

Oh, I see. I was not aware and I'd never seen this link before. I did say "Riot" initially because I'm unsure of who else was involved in creating the character.

DoozkuMar 24, 201810 votes

It feels like your entire existence on these boards is to put down CertainlyT.

sir d wreckMar 24, 20184 votes

And hate ADCs. And hate Yasuo.

RiotKindlejackMar 24, 201821 votes

Thanks so much for taking the time to write this and play LoL! I'm so glad you've found another champion you enjoy playing - to me it always feels special when you find one that just clicks. I've linked this post to the Zoe dev team so they can all read it.

You'll be happy to know that, although she received a critical reception on forums, Zoe has been one of our most popular champions ever so you're in good company. When working on Zoe we had a hunch LoL could use some more cute fun champions, but even we were surprised by just how much players loved her character.

FasmodeyMar 24, 20185 votes

It is more of her gameplay being fun IMO. And she was busted, let's honest (probably still is). Which is something attracts people to play.

I really hate his character, story, theme, voice etc. But even I played her a lot. I rarely play champions I don't like but I played her a lot. I almost have mastery 5 on her and trust me, even my Xerath is mastery 5 lol.

Yeah, this is more of gameplay rather than theme and story if you ask me.

HonestJohnTheConMar 25, 20182 votes

{quoted} I really hate his character his

[zombie-brand-mindblown] But seriously, I kinda have to agree. While I thoroughly enjoy her character in lore -- I personally find her hilarious -- more people would probably be drawn to her gameplay, because maybe about 10% of the playerbase* actually reads the small blurbs of lore (maybe 2% actually look over it in detail, and that's being generous).

She's in a decent spot now, though. According to champion.gg, she's slightly above average in Plat+ and below average in Bronze/Silver. Getting one-shot might be annoying, but few Zoes have the skill to do it over and over again (and if you get matched with ones that do, then you probably have the skill to avoid it after the first time).

*All statistics are inferred, estimated, and/or basically pulled from thin air.

AntMar 25, 20182 votes

Thanks so much! I hope they enjoy reading it.

DeadUnbornMar 25, 20181 votes

I'm curious, which regions is she popular in? I suspect eastern and western countries patterns of play are very different, and what might be unpopular in one region is very popular in another

RiotKindlejackMar 26, 20183 votes

Actually regions tend to line up fairly consistently across most metrics with a few anomalies here and there - despite our constant research into player preferences around the world it turns out we're not so different after all. One example of an anomaly; Rakan's character and visual design were quite popular across all regions but spiked really high in Brazil.

DeadUnbornMar 26, 20183 votes

Really? Is just that in LAN I barely ever see her... maybe its just my "luck" though. I find that interesting, I thought for sure that different regions would tend to prefer different kinds of characters. I wonder if maybe people that like MOBAS/ League tend to like the same kind of themes on average and that's why characters get played at the same rate... the discrepancy between regions being the amount of people that like League overall, rather than specific themes WITHIN League.

Again, very interesting for sure

RiotKindlejackMar 26, 20184 votes

Yeah, particularly with such a big player base it's unlikely that any one player is going to have an experience that effectively reflects the averages. For example I never see Yasuo being played in pro play, and I ban him every single game so I never really see him being played, but he has one of the highest play rates of any champion in the game ¯_(ツ)_/¯

I also suspect that the average boards/reddit player is a lot higher MMR than most LoL players, so their in-game experience is more meta-driven. For example I don't see much Ezreal or Lee Sin when they are off-meta but I know that the majority of our players are still playing those champions win or lose because they are fun.

With skins tastes vary a bit more from region to region, as some things like Halloween are culturally specific but for champions themes tend to be pretty universal. eg. A shadow ninja is badass no matter where you live >:)

ModThe DjinnMar 26, 20183 votes

{quoted}A shadow ninja is badass no matter where you live >:)

As someone who lives in the shadows with a clan of ninja -- nah, it's a pretty normal Thursday. :P

AMYS GRAVEMar 26, 20181 votes

Yeah, particularly with such a big player base it's unlikely that any one player is going to have an experience that effectively reflects the averages.

Is that because the spread is so large, or because the data is bimodal? Differences in distributions imply different necessary actions. Just today's statistics food for thought.

RiotKindlejackMar 28, 20182 votes

Well the spread is certainly large (for example there are currently 573,658,984,353,378 possible combinations of champions in any given game) but also the sample size of one is infinitesimal compared to a player base in the millions. For example if you roll a D20 once and get a 5 and then assume that 5 is the average result. When it comes to LoL, at a conservative estimate, a single player would have to play ~30,000 games of LoL per month to achieve a reasonable confidence level.

AnataBakkaMar 28, 20181 votes

wtf, how did you get that number? "573,658,984,353,378"

i got 1,738,602,515*10^17 combinations for a normal blind pick match considering both ally composition and enemy composition

RiotKindlejackMar 29, 20184 votes

I just used the standard combination calculation

N! / n!(N-n)!

because you can't pick the same champion twice, although as Sixdogman points out below the realistic calculation would take into account the makeup of each team separately and also realistically consider the potential pick in each role.

Chromatic EagleMar 29, 20183 votes

{quoted}

I just used the standard combination calculation

N! / n!(N-n)!

because you can't pick the same champion twice, although as Sixdogman points** out below the realistic calculation would take into account the makeup of each team separately and also realistically consider the potential pick in each role. **

Clearly you haven't seen my bronze games.

RiotKindlejackMar 29, 20182 votes

AMYS GRAVEMar 28, 20181 votes

Well the beautiful thing about working in riot is you can pull your data from many individuals, so the distribution of all experiences can be drawn upon instead of just from an individual in order to answer the question of expected variance of an individual's experience. The bimodal distribution in experiences that i suspect exists and was alluding to is between people who permaban yas vs. those who don't.

If this underlying distribution is significantly bimodal in this way then the "background" games which contain a player who permabans yasuo can be subtracted and the "signal" games which represents the experiences of those who do not constantly ban him can be properly assessed. In this situation yasuo has potentially two problems, one being why so many players are of the proclivity to permaban him causing the bimodal distribution in the first place, and any other potential problems (which may or may not even exist) would be uncovered from the signal games which would not be assess-able without this kind of subtraction.

If the underlying distribution is not significantly bimodal then that means that yasuo's high banrate comes from many people who comparatively infrequently ban yasuo, and the spread of experiences around yasuo's pickrate is closer to normal and likely lower in deviation, implying a smaller set of potential problems that people are more unified on.

In this example a large spread implies different necessary action compared to a bimodal underlying distribution.

on another note the number possible combinations of champions who make it into in a game is

for blind pick: 140 choose 5 * 140 choose 5 = 1.7386025e+17

and for draft: 140 choose 5 * 135 choose 5 = 1.4456206e+17

Divide these results by 2 if the exact same team comps on opposite sides of the map doesn't make a difference to you.

Your calculation is 140 choose 10 but you're neglecting that which team the champion is on makes a difference. If zed and yas are on the same team that is a different set of teams than if they are on opposite teams leading to more combinations than you suggest.

I noticed you are a concept artist so hopefully all the stats talk doesn't bore you. XD

RiotKindlejackMar 29, 20184 votes

I may be a concept artist but I have a psych degree and before they let us use software they would make us do all of our statistical analysis by hand :P

One of the beautiful things about LoL is that the experiences are so varied. Once you consider team composition you could also look at the MMR distribution between champs/roles, general ELO of games, item builds etc. Even with millions of games occurring constantly it's unlikely the same game has played out twice. The example of banning Yasuo was more to illustrate that each individual player has their own experiences and they do not really equip one to speak to the 'average' player experience even if they log a lot of hours.

Fortunately I get to spend my days designing champions and skins instead of losing my mind trying to create prediciton models or track trends for LoL but I am very close with our teams statisticians whose work I greatly respect as it empowers us to make the best decisions we can at any given time.

NylisaMar 25, 20182 votes

you guys gave her too much power and the important question is why?

Sexy Jack RabbitMar 25, 20182 votes

Makes sense that she's getting a skin 6 months after her release then. Whereas Taliyah has had to wait 2+ years for one. Even then she's only getting one because the skins team was FORCED to by the Esports team that chose her.

I hope the concept artists can kick it up a notch soon. Because this whole "The champ fits the theme" excuse might just be "Our CA's are basic"

GenoXxMar 25, 20183 votes

That's probably because she was op. And from your view point on this, I seriously hope this isn't how you guys gather statistics. If that's so, no wonder you guys been getting heat for your recent updates, you guys seem to misunderstand alot of things about fans.

RiotReav3Mar 26, 20187 votes

We gather all kinds of statistics. When he said she was popular he wasn't just referring to playrate. We also just ask people in surveys what they think of the champ, and ask them to rate gameplay, theme, VO, etc. Zoe was one of the highest rated champions for theme we have released in awhile, in fact her theme scores were higher than her gameplay scores.

We have actually seen many champions release OP and have a theme that doesn't resonate with players as much, and they tend to not be as popular, and my contrast we have released champions with themes many players love and we see them be super popular despite being weak (Kai'Sa for example)

One thing about the boards and reddit is that they are a small portion of the total players and they also tend to skew on the older side. I think Zoe's theme was very popular with our younger players as well as more popular in eastern regions (I think KR was the most positive on her theme of all regions, for example)

GenoXxMar 26, 20182 votes

One thing about the boards and reddit is that they are a small portion of the total players and they also tend to skew on the older side. I think Zoe's theme was very popular with our younger players as well as more popular in eastern regions (I think KR was the most positive on her theme of all regions, for example)

I believe with age, there are different mentalities. 10-15 yrs may find her theme great and all. 19-25 may have seen pass the pixar theme and actually started to look at her as a whole. I mean, that's probably where this high rating came from. Pixar girl now in league.

One thing about the boards and reddit is that they are a small portion of the total players

You guys keep saying that. I'm sure if the boards was brought up as an option on the client, you would get much more people here. Most of them seemingly aren't aware of the boards. That's no reason to not take the boards into higher consideration though....Zoe's reception here was bad because we actually noticed how low the standards were set for her vs other champions.

RiotReav3Mar 26, 20185 votes

Of course we take the boards and reddit into high consideration, they are our most dedicated and hardcore players. Didn't mean to say we don,t just that it doesn't represent the majority. There were many people on the boards that liked Zoe's theme as well, that was kind of the point of this thread.

LafirenzeMar 27, 20186 votes

{quoted}

I believe with age, there are different mentalities. 10-15 yrs may find her theme great and all. 19-25 may have seen pass the pixar theme and actually started to look at her as a whole. I mean, that's probably where this high rating came from. Pixar girl now in league.

I hate to burst your sleepy trouble bubble, but Zoe is one of my favorite champs and I'm forty, so your theory that Zoe is popular because her fans must be too young and impressionable to know any better is full of portal holes. Zoe

AntMar 27, 20183 votes

Yeah I'm also definitely older than 25, lol.

I Main SwainMar 25, 20183 votes

{quoted}

Thanks so much for taking the time to write this and play LoL! I'm so glad you've found another champion you enjoy playing - to me it always feels special when you find one that just clicks. I've linked this post to the Zoe dev team so they can all read it.

You'll be happy to know that, although she received a critical reception on forums, Zoe has been one of our most popular champions ever so you're in good company. When working on Zoe we had a hunch LoL could use some more cute fun champions, but even we were surprised by just how much players loved her character.

honestly new fun additions like her character are exactly what this game needs and shes easily my favorite character in terms of art and personality that youve ever made

Spoopy uwuMar 26, 20182 votes

I'm another Zoe lover, although I kinda stopped player her after my teams I was playing with and against would tell me how stupid I was and all that jazz [sg-janna] But now I'm hoping I can pick her up again without feeling like I'm in a 9vs 1 anymore! Thanks for making Zoe! Zoe She's the biggest reason I started play League!

RiotKindlejackMar 28, 20182 votes

You started with Zoe!? Welcome to LoL! That's really great to hear so thanks for sharing.

My advice is stick with your favourite champs and just /mute the haters. I've been playing a lot of Fiddlesticks lately, I know tank junglers are probably stronger right now but I love the guy and have more fun playing him =)

Spoopy uwuMar 29, 20181 votes

Yeah [sg-lulu] I was pretty bad. I'm a support main now but Zoe is always my first pick when I get autofilled to mid. I'm really happy about her new skin too! Do you have any info on that that you are allowed to share?

RiotKindlejackMar 30, 20183 votes

We try our best not to divulge anything ahead of time because things can always end up changing, but being a Pool Party skin I think it's safe to expect it some time this summer!

Everyone who's ever played LoL started out not very good, but our mastery is built out of hundreds of little moments where we played just a little better: landed that bubble, cleared that key ward, hooked Vayne between two minons, peeled an assassin off our ADC, and so on =)

A Superb VillainMar 24, 201815 votes

Ant, I respect your opinion and am glad you have found a champion that resonates so well with your personality.

That said, ZOE IS AN ABOMINATION. She is my anathema, a horrifying reflection I find absolutely disgusting down to the most insignificant minutia.

She's annoyingly bubbly,

Facetious!

high-energy

Frivolous!

and free-spirited.

Foolish!

And what's worse, her distinctions only intensify the similarities! A burst mage, of all things! A child invested with cosmic power that can warp the tenuous fabric of reality, pull apart the strings which bind our universe; magic beyond comprehension! Charlatan, I say, who squanders an undeserved gift in the pursuit of pointless pleasures!

I see a lot of myself in this character. She hits all the right notes for me and I identify with the character more than any other Champion in the game.

Regrettably, and through no fault of your own, we are destined to be mortal enemies, just as the Lux mains before you; I will not suffer the presence of joy or positivity.

https://78.media.tumblr.com/31ab6840d7d58268c296c8c8a1c2a1cb/tumblr_n9w0a2E8oT1qbgzreo1_400.gif

AntMar 24, 201811 votes

Zoe Are you made of rainbows? So cute! Veigar

A Superb VillainMar 25, 20188 votes

https://evilwizardesq.files.wordpress.com/2016/08/blm-logo.jpg?w=210

TerozuMar 24, 20182 votes

But the reason she has those powers is because she'd waste them. Wasting them is a prerequisite of the powers.

RiotRiot OwleyCatMar 25, 20188 votes

10/10 - Impressive character commitment, ty for the lol :D

A Superb VillainMar 25, 20184 votes

It gives my blackened soul a distinct pleasure to know some appreciate my dedication to form. Not enough to earn my good favor, of course, but pleasant nonetheless.

(Seriously though, happy to give you a good chuckle.)

Dokueki KenshinMar 24, 201810 votes

In regards to her personality. I absolutely agree, although her lack of a moral compass is somewhat disturbing. I suppose it’s a side effect of the whimsical effect of being the aspect of Twilight.

AntMar 24, 20183 votes

I have read that and thought about it and yeah there are a few quotes of hers that are a little unsettling like, "You won't play? I'll make you!" and "I should think up a new game -- one that mortals can play without dying!" I don't think the gravity (no pun) of what she does to/with mortals is really truly understood by her. She just wants to play and have fun and make new friends and have people to talk to, and that's something I can completely relate to.

HonestJohnTheConMar 25, 20184 votes

She's basically Tinker Bell.

Really sparkly and fun? Check!
Pining after an adventurous guy romantically? Check!
Slightly sociopathic? Check!

But actually, yeah, she doesn't understand death (her being able to see spirits and the cycle of reincarnation probably doesn't help, not to mention that she's effectively immortal).

Risen29Mar 24, 20183 votes

Teemo is one of my favorite champions for his personality and art style. And aviator Irelia is one. I like other more serious ones, but sometimes all this endless "look at me, am I not incredibly angsty and serious" gets old real quick.

I mean, have you ever looked at the eyes of the champions and skins? Why are 99% of them so evil looking?

You only have a few happy standouts like Lux.

HungryAngry2SPPMar 25, 20182 votes

{quoted}

I mean, have you ever looked at the eyes of the champions and skins? Why are 99% of them so evil looking?

Becouse those evil eyes make me happy

RiotRiot OwleyCatMar 25, 20185 votes

To me, League of Legends has always been about that variety. I love Teemo, and most of my mastery is on Heimerdinger. I like that there are things that resonate deeply with me side by side with things my friends like. Zoe adds another opportunity for my expression in League.

One thing we talk about all the time during development is a champions's 'power fantasy' - what makes them so cool? Why can they put up a fight against a literal god or demon or whatever else exists in our champion roster? Sometimes (for alot of league players) that looks like a really strong, kind of angry character. And sometimes, it looks like something more sparkly. Sometimes it's Teemo. :D

Aviator Irelia is my desktop wallpaper. #ThatSmile