Update: Lore Forum Redirect Removal

Tamat·Sep 26, 2014·28 votes·21,025 views

Summoners!

Last night we redirected the Lore forums to the Story & Art boards as a way merge these two communities into one. Then you gave us some feedback, and made some good points for us to consider. We didn't anticipate a negative reaction to this, because we had already redirected several other forums to the boards without so much as a peep. Clearly I underestimated the situation, and for that, I personally apologize.

So here's where we're at:

We want to consolidate Lore forum / Story & Art ASAP, but we didn't give you any notice, and that caused a shitty experience.
To rectify the experience, and to address your feedback, we're going to temporarily revert the redirect so that you will once again have access to the Lore forums index.
Sometime in the next week or two we will be re-adding a redirect, but we plan to create a read only index of all of the content that you've created over the years to remain as an archive.

I hope this speaks to our desire to build the Boards together, and not in a vacuum. I welcome any additional feedback you might have in this discussion. Be gentle!

85 Comments

sp441Sep 26, 201417 votes

The reason why people got so pissed at that is because people have been pissed about the various changes to lore that you guys have been doing, with little to no responses from the Lore team, or even Riot in general, the few responses being compromised mostly of more vague promises and deflections.

The redirection without any prior warning came across as a way to silence criticism. Criticism that you haven't been addressing anyways so it would be rather pointless.

TamatSep 26, 201413 votes

Our biggest motivator to transition to the boards wasn't to silence anyone, it was to make a lot more noise! I want to see the the folks at Riot that work on the story to have a much more active presence here. My biggest piece of feedback for everyone here is that you need to make them feel more welcome, and less like they have to walk into a lions den to talk with you.

sp441Sep 26, 201424 votes

Yeah, but this is starting to generate a cycle of mistrust. You guys change stuff, which piss people off. You then aren't very willing to come to the forums because everybody's being pissy, which makes people more pissy because they feel you're giving them the silent treatment, which makes you even less willing to come talk to us.

And I have a feeling it's going to get a lot worse before the year's out...

Tesla EffectSep 26, 201411 votes

Maybe if they gave us more informations on what the new world will be like so that we wont worry so much. They retconed a lot of their lore without of having new lore prepared properly. Dont blame the fans for their improper timing of such information, we only react as anyone would with such small amount of progress they made in this matter. How does Valoran even look like? City-states, can they even be called that anymore (Freljord being the prime example)? Shurima and Freljord events never getting proper conclusions, why didnt they assure the fan base as to why this wasnt addressed soon? Saying at least that we will update the lore soon, need some time to write it all, dont worry. Why does Sion lore compliment and work so well with the old lore, old lore that was influenced by the League? (aka Kalamanda incident) What are they planing? Give us some small hints, anything honestly, we dont really want shallow explanations as to why they did the changes, rather give us assurance on what is coming soon instead of just saying "ITs gonna be cool" without proving yourself with the current lore changes.

We love you Riot, but not answering our questions really hurts and is making the "lions den" problem even worse. Remember Bioware and their Mass Effect 3 controvercy, yeah they screwed that big time for not talking correctly to their fans. Please dont make the same mistake. item 3151

TauNoob1Sep 26, 20149 votes

The issue is that even if it wasn't intended, you should have known that would create a HUGE uproar. With the way the community has been treated and talked at it shouldn't be too suprising.

Renekton BotSep 26, 201415 votes

Instead of 'lion's den' I would appreciate it if you used the more accurate term 'crocodile's riverbank.'

Tesla EffectSep 26, 201411 votes

From Riots perspective: Fans: Renekton Riot: Amumu

From Fans perspective: Riot: Trundle Trundle Teemo Fans: Alistar Amumu Lucian

Actual look: Fans: Alistar DrMundo Amumu Riot: Draven

Renekton BotSep 26, 201414 votes

Look man I've said some mean things about Riot but I've never considered them a Teemo.

CupcakeTrapSep 26, 201449 votes

My biggest piece of feedback for everyone here is that you need to make them feel more welcome, and less like they have to walk into a lions den to talk with you.

While the rage got shockingly out of hand at one point, and nothing can excuse that incident, most of the standard vitriol is (I think) the result of us not feeling that we have any kind of engagement.

The Riot Norm: Community Engagement As Part Of Design Part of the reason we like Riot so much is that you guys really do engage with the community and talk things out. Sure, you do larger-scale playtesting, and you conduct market research, but I at least get the impression that in most areas you'll also consider feedback from the forum/Boards/Reddit "focus group".

Not So With Lore Lore is the big exception. For literally years, the lore community teemed with ideas. (And not just Urgot/Kassadin fanfic.) Riot would come by and mumble something about how you were "working on something awesome", then vanish. This didn't create excitement: it created fear. That might sound like an excessively strong word: fear, really, about a pretendy story for a video game? But I think it's a suitable word.

** Why Lore Is Personal** People get anxious about their favorite Champions getting nerfed or reworked. People care about their Elo, and their gameplay experiences. I think it's even more acute with lore. This is not just a League phenomenon: look at any community that's gathered around a work of fiction or a universe. The process of experiencing fiction, especially immersive, universe-building fiction, is an affectionate process of familiarization. It taps into our basic social instincts: we get to know characters, we get involved in their stories.

Retcons and reworks are upsetting for this reason, especially if they come out of the blue. For a quirky analogy, consider the fact that one can't really tickle oneself. In a similar way, to the degree that the changing force is alien and "other", the disturbance is perceived as greater, especially when accompanied by a feeling of loss of control.

Why Deleting Summoners And The League Is Extra-Personal Deleting Summoners, and the League, is more jarring still by orders of magnitude, because it strikes right to the heart of immersion. It felt like you were kicking us out of Runeterra — because you were. There are creative and theoretical reasons why people oppose this change, but there's also this very personal element.

Contrast: Community Engagement During Gameplay Changes Versus Lore Changes When the gameplay team sets out to do a gameplay rework of a Champion, there's a big discussion, with top-level decisionmakers actively participating and responding flexibly to feedback, engaging and debating with the community. I think this really sets League apart.

Then Riot went and made massive changes to lore after years of secretive behind-the-scenes plotting, with absolutely no community engagement beyond "gosh, this'll be cool!", worrisome trends (the gradual erasure of Summoner references in voicework), and confusing micro-reveals.

I'm searching for a suitable gameplay analogy. A Champion kit rework is really a poor match: it's too small, by far. Imagine if Riot just decided, I don't know, to rework all melee Champions into pure tanks. There would be a discussion about this. It might all be smoke and mirrors, but if so they're well-deployed, because I really do think based on past experience that this would be a back-and-forth, with community input influencing (perhaps even cancelling) the proposed change.

Here, there was no discussion about what we liked about LoL's lore. Riot says there are tradeoffs between the immersion provided by the League framework and the "freedom" (debatable, but that's a separate topic) found in a League-free setting. Those tradeoffs were not discussed here. Neither the hardcore lore community nor the community in general had input.

Does this help explain the reaction?

Tesla EffectSep 26, 20146 votes

Pretty much sums the overall feel of us fans with this situation. Well done.

LabcownSep 26, 201415 votes

This post cannot get enough up-votes / attention.

It outlines very concisely what the Lore Community is feeling, and in a way that doesn't just ooze vitrol.

At this point, we don't want Lore People to come in and tell us how much "better" this direction is, because it's been beyond repeated that we really don't care for this Immersion Eviction you've put us all through.

What I think'd would go a long way in starting to bridge the gap between the community and the lore guys again is acknowledgement that they really did tear down the world we knew, and that in some ways that it did and will suck for a while.

CupcakeTrapSep 26, 201411 votes

What I think'd would go a long way in starting to bridge the gap between the community and the lore guys again is acknowledgement that they really did tear down the world we knew, and that in some ways that it did and will suck for a while.

Honestly, I think they've already said that, and while I think it's a start, it's only (at best) a start.

There's a decision to be made, first. It may well have already been made. Riot needs to decide — and I don't mean to be melodramatic here — between these two basic options.

Forget about the lore community, and just make something new.
Collaborate with the lore community.

Again, not meant as melodrama. Maybe Riot's just decided, "yeah, the lore community isn't that big anyway, let's just start over from scratch. If all the hardcore lore people hate us, whatever, that's like at the absolute most 100K ~~Summoners~~ players. Stop worrying about them and start over with a new base. Maybe the old crowd will fall away, maybe they'll join in, but either way, they shouldn't be part of the relaunch." They've got a huge playerbase of millions and millions to think about; maybe they feel that interacting with and considering the opinions of a very small, vocal fraction of that playerbase will lead them to make bad decisions vis-a-vis the whole.

It's a pretty strong numbers argument. Yet I would say that so far League of Legends is a testament to the power of the community engagement model of development. What if the rest of Riot had just locked itself away and never engaged in meaningful interaction with the community? Maybe LoL would be as good as it is now. Maybe it would be better. But I think it might well be worse.

If they want option 2, then they should say so. And follow it up with a first step by which they engage in a meaningful discussion with us. Some examples:

Let's talk about how the League/Institute/Summoners might be reworked, modified, or reduced in significance, rather than completely erased.
Let's talk about whether they'd be interested in creating some "mini-lore" for the actual game, that explains what the League of Legends is, and what Summoners are, and what exactly these Champions are championing, within the alternate universe of the game League of Legends. (Aside: WTF did I just type? How is the League of Legends now an alternate universe within the lore of LEAGUE OF LEGENDS? Arrrgggghhh.) And let's then talk about how, with this lore in mind, we might be able to stop the "cleansing" of the voicework.
Let's talk about the upcoming plot arcs, and (e.g.) what kind of Bandle City we want to see in the relaunch.
Let's talk about what kinds of lore events we want to see, and that they want to create. For instance, any chance of an event that will tie in a featured game mode, polls, or some other activity, and the outcome of which will influence how the lore progresses?

If they want option 1, they can just stay the course, and we'll get the hint.

FinnicalSep 26, 20147 votes

About the numbers argument; While I can see how people could think that way I don't think it is accurate. I'm personally not part of the "Lore Community," but I love Riot's old lore (Sion's rework was awesome too).

I think to just say "Only 100k people care anyway," is wrong. It would be more appropriate to say, "Only 100k people are willing to post on forums about lore." I would be willing to bet there are a lot more like myself who don't want to spend time checking, posting on and rechecking forums, maybe just checking the red tracker once in a while, who actually really love the lore.

Perhaps Riot could do a simple in-client survey of each summoner, one question only. Do you like the decision to eliminate the Institute of War and take a new direction with the lore, or do you prefer the original lore?

CupcakeTrapSep 26, 20144 votes

Perhaps Riot could do a simple in-client survey of each summoner, one question only. Do you like the decision to eliminate the Institute of War and take a new direction with the lore, or do you prefer the original lore?

I think qualitative feedback is probably more important, especially since it's not a strictly binary issue. There's also a concern I'd have that people would vote "take a new direction" because lore was so dead for so long.

A better test might be creating some kind of lore-based event (ahem) and seeing what kind of response it gets.

DfenestratorSep 26, 20148 votes

Riot needs to decide — and I don't mean to be melodramatic here — between these two basic options.

Forget about the lore community, and just make something new.

Collaborate with the lore community.

With how other departments at RIOT have acted (especially in the past year or so), I'd like to think that the Lore team will decide to reach out and collaborate more with the community. I think the Lore team has some great ideas. However, I think those ideas can be made even better with proper collaboration with the community.

Unfortunately, the Lore team has severely mishandled things with the community for a long time.

I personally believe that, while the reaction of many members of the community has been far less than admirable, the onus is on the Lore team to take measured and consistent steps to repair its relationship with the community. It won't be easy. It will take effort. It will take time. But it can be done.

From what I understand, the community, more than anything, wants a consistent dialogue with the Lore team. It wants to feel heard and understood. It wants to feel like it matters to RIOT as much as any other group of players. The people here care about the company and they care about the lore. Most, whether they admit it or not, are also willing to forgive and rebuild their relationships with the Lore team.

The Lore team just needs to start that process and see it through to the end.

RiotRiotJaredanSep 26, 20146 votes

The responsibility is on us, there's no doubt, to be much more communicative and to do so with consistency. We can't wait to do that communication through the continuing release of stories in a variety of forms, including written, and our discussions around them. Our team is learning and growing and how we communicate is an important part of our evolution. We are committed to doing so.

Being such a part of the community, being so informed and inspired by our players, is a big part of why I wanted to be at Riot and why I'm ridiculously proud to be here—seriously, if you see me in public, 9 times out of 10 I've got our logo emblazoned on me somewhere. A variety of teams here do a tremendous job of interaction with you and Narrative wants to meet the high bars set across Riot.

As you succinctly said, it'll take time and effort.

Cheers.

CupcakeTrapSep 26, 201421 votes

The responsibility is on us, there's no doubt, to be much more communicative and to do so with consistency. We can't wait to do that communication through the continuing release of stories in a variety of forms, including written, and our discussions around them. Our team is learning and growing and how we communicate is an important part of our evolution. We are committed to doing so.

Summoner Defenestrator spoke of "dialogue", not "communication". What you're describing seems to be "we'll release story and art, and then we'll come on the boards and celebrate by chatting about what we've created." That's great! But, if I may, I don't think it's what Defenestrator meant by "dialogue".

What we want is actual, two-way, impactful dialogue. You guys seem to be doing everything as a surprise reveal. For example, we don't even know what faction you're doing next. You certainly haven't come to us and said, e.g., "We're doing Ionia next. We see the following problems with Ionia's lore. We see the following highlights. What do you think?" This is more how, e.g., the gameplay team sets about making major changes: for example, many reworks have been preceded by community discussions about the Champions that are about to be reworked.

Low output volume was an issue for a long time. You're churning stuff out much faster now. But it's still just a shrink-wrapped delivery of pre-determined lore. There's no dialogue.

http://i.imgur.com/oB4y7Ko.png "Here's your sandwich. It's pastrami. Any questions about your pastrami sandwich?"

http://i.imgur.com/HQ2XBo0.png "Uh, well, for starters, I'd really prefer tuna salad."

http://i.imgur.com/oB4y7Ko.png "Gosh. :) All the time we have. We hope you enjoy your pastrami experience! We're really excited about the beverage project that's coming up — oops! I may have said too much! Haha!"

http://i.imgur.com/HQ2XBo0.png "Can we talk about beverages? If I'm going to eat pastrami, I suppose I'd want something like, I don't know, a Coke."

http://i.imgur.com/oB4y7Ko.png "We can tell you're excited. That's great! It will not be a Coke. Stay tuned for more beverage adventures!"

HolovoidSep 26, 201411 votes

"We can tell you're excited. That's great! It will not be a Coke. Stay tuned for more beverage adventures!"

Choked on my soda, fuckin hilarious.

Ark Angel HFBSep 26, 20149 votes

seriously, if you see me in public, 9 times out of 10 I've got our logo emblazoned on me somewhere.

And yet you made a massive game immersion impacting discussion with absolutely no feedback from players(I won't call them summoners since that concept wasn't good enough for you, despite almost everyone I ask in game have negative feelings about the change.)

So you claim to love Riot yet for two years you take actions, that from where I sit, stand in opposition to the core identity of Riot as a company that listens and discuses things with the players before discussion are made?

Yeah waiter, you can take back this weak sauce... I'm not buying it.

CupcakeTrapSep 27, 20145 votes

By the way, Summoner, would you be interested in streaming/casting any of tomorrow's Featured Matches for Factions?

On a related note, I'd totally be down for some in-universe casting sometime. My yordlecast was received in a … mixed fashion. But I think in-universe casting has potential, if you're clever about it.

Ark Angel HFBSep 27, 20144 votes

By the way, Summoner, would you be interested in streaming/casting any of tomorrow's Featured Matches for Factions?

So very down... Hit me up on Skype or in game asap so we can get some ideas flowing. XD

Arkangelhfb should get me on skype as well.

CupcakeTrapSep 26, 201415 votes

At this point, we don't want Lore People to come in and tell us how much "better" this direction is, because it's been beyond repeated that we really don't care for this Immersion Eviction you've put us all through.

I want to highlight this.

We don't want to simply listen to a bunch of cloistered authors churn out a story. We want to be part of that universe. This is a key difference between a book and a game. You've got Kitae on your staff. Talk to her about Mass Effect. Sure, it's a single-player game, but talk to her generally about immersion, and giving players ownership of a story. The Mass Effect 3 parallels are there: I think much of the hostility toward that ending was that it was a surprise twist out of nowhere that severely disrupted the story into which we'd invested so much time, energy, and emotion.

We don't necessarily need to have any actual participation in the story, though I'm obviously a fan of interactive lore events and lore-influencing game modes. It's seriously appreciated just to have a nominal place in the setting, as your favorite Champion's magical pal (and no, not their slavemaster: that was a creepy, weird version of the League). Tell us about the Institute where we live. Tell us about our Institute education. Have fun with it and "in-universe-ify" some pro players: tell us about the legendary Summoner Dyrus and his adventures. Do a series on Worlds, casting it as an in-universe "showmatch" event where Summoners and Champions fight together for glory. Write some in-universe newspaper articles aimed at our in-universe personas.

I just gave you a bunch of purely one-directional options for immersing us in the setting and making us feel welcome. They require absolutely no yielding of narrative control.

But that's another thing: Noxus vs. Ionia was awesome. I feel that a video game author should be flexible. Why not have some pivotal plot points resolved by in-universe game mode events? This is an example of how the Summoners concept can really deepen our immersion and give us a stake. Part of the bitterness over the Freljord was that you invited us to participate in what looked to be a big battle … and then just told us Ashe won, and our matches had nothing to do with it.

RiotRiotJaredanSep 26, 201411 votes

Hello all, and you in particular, of course, CupcakeTrap. First up, apologies for my own lack of appearance here on the new shiny Story and Art forum; it's been rather hectic. Still, that's no excuse, and making time to engage with you is always a priority.

Not So With Lore I don't think you are being hyperbolic when you use the word "fear." Fear is a response due to being unsure about something you care profoundly about, and that has arisen because we've done a poor job in communication for some time, for a variety of reasons, and because you hold our Champions and our world dear. We want our communication to improve, and we want your love for Runeterra to continue and grow by leveling up the stories we tell and how we tell them.

Essentially, as we were working on how we were moving forward with the story of Runeterra, it made certain interactions that would be meaningful difficult. I know when I arrived at Riot I would pop on the boards and see where I could play a game of "bat the idea around" with players. As soon as discussion moved towards "...and how did <insert character name here> join the League?" there was an overwhelming urge to throw down a Ninja smoke bomb, shout "Look, over there! It's Elvis!" and run away. We couldn't engage with you fully because we hadn't worked through our direction to the point that we could answer those particular questions. Personally, I didn't want to start conversations that would end in avoiding the questions.

The Dev Blog that announced the changes was not only to give you a better idea of where we were headed, but to allow us to start speaking about it in a way that wasn't infused with fear. That word again. I was unsure of something I care profoundly about—making the experience of players better, particularly through story. Hence the hesitance.

Why Lore is Personal I couldn't agree more—it's why I work in the field that I do. Story isn't just something we consume, it's a fundamental part of how we live, and it informs who we are. The stories that matter to us stay with us.

Why Deleting Summoners and The League is Extra-Personal I understand that and we're working on telling the stories that will build the world and allow for a deeper understanding of Runeterra, its people, and the unique individuals who protect them—or endanger them. The issue with moving towards creating stories to explore our world, rather than giving a more encyclopaedic overview, is that you don't get all of the information up front. The advantage is that you experience the stories from within their circumstances and through the hearts and minds of the characters.

Biographies are excellent for recounting things and can be written in very entertaining ways. We want Runeterra to live and breathe in a way that means you are experiencing things as they happen. The characters will change because they grow as people do. We made the decision we did in order to make choices on the long term growth of those characters and our overall story.

The Institute of War became an issue because it was created to tell a game rather than tell a story. Its inherent structure to focus Valoran's conflict into specific areas meant we would have to consistently work around it in order to create many of the stories we are passionate about telling. There were a variety of ways that we could have done that, including destroying the IoW (Nashorzilla?). However, that would have left us with aspects of our world that we wanted to improve upon and change, which we would have to explain individually through story. Stories that would essentially be explanations, which was the main issue with the IoW in the first place.

We wanted to form a Runeterra with a foundation that allows us to go wherever we want to. A place to explore anew.

The stories, such as Shurima and the new Sion, are our first steps. Many more will follow.

CupcakeTrapSep 26, 201418 votes

Essentially, as we were working on how we were moving forward with the story of Runeterra, it made certain interactions that would be meaningful difficult. I know when I arrived at Riot I would pop on the boards and see where I could play a game of "bat the idea around" with players. As soon as discussion moved towards "...and how did <insert character name here> join the League?" there was an overwhelming urge to throw down a Ninja smoke bomb, shout "Look, over there! It's Elvis!" and run away. We couldn't engage with you fully because we hadn't worked through our direction to the point that we could answer those particular questions. Personally, I didn't want to start conversations that would end in avoiding the questions.

But this is precisely what I mean: you assume a priori that you could not have discussed with us the weighty and emotional issue of whether to retcon the League, to have it disappear in-universe, or to rework it. I firmly disagree with the assumption that this doctrine of silence was necessary or appropriate.

Most of those questions about "why did (character) join the League?" were lightly veiled expressions of fear. We suspected you were plotting something. We wanted to get a discussion started before it was too late. But you either "smoke-bombed" or, increasingly, refrained from engaging with us at all.

(For the record, I'm a bit puzzled that you think Nashorzilla destroying the League would have been a solution. It suggests to me that you guys were working with a very limited, caricatured concept of the League as all-powerful fascists who rule the world by decree, instead of a supranational entity founded upon the consensus of member-states. So long as the political will is there, physically destroying the League is at best a window of opportunity for anti-League advocates: if Demacia and Noxus still want the League around, they'll just rebuild it.)

I imagine that right now you're thinking "whatever, we've got too much written to undo the retcon. That ship's sailed. I look down the hall and I see dozens of people frantically working on material that we'd have to scrap to bring back the League." I want to point out that neither of the two stories you've released so far (Shurima and Sion) conflict with the League, or at least with a modestly revamped version of it.

The Institute of War became an issue because it was created to tell a game rather than tell a story.

Given that League of Legends is a game, I don't think this is such a damning critique. "Yeah, this final showdown with Saren, it's really just for the sake of a game. In my Mass Effect novel, I'm retconning it. Also, we're purging all cutscenes from the Collector's Edition that show the battle; it's not really meant to be part of the story, just a side game."

Its inherent structure to focus Valoran's conflict into specific areas meant we would have to consistently work around it in order to create many of the stories we are passionate about telling.

This should have been a months-long discussion, not a throwaway sentence, but I'll respond briefly. The League (or a sensible rework of it) doesn't force all conflict to occur at the Institute. It certainly does discourage war, but it has neither the will nor the power to ban all violence. Rather, when a war between two nations gets so out of control that it threatens to destroy Valoran, it will step in, place boundaries on the dispute ("Okay, Noxus and Ionia, you can fight over these islands, but you stay off the mainland."), and redirect conflict to the League whenever possible ("That city is on a major leyline. No battle-magic there. Fight that one out in the League.") — and, of course, ultimately use League adjudication to hammer out the details of the truce. And because gruesome war plots do get old, it's important to note that the League allows for voluntary adjudication of lesser issues as well: Bandle City and Piltover aren't going to start murdering each other, but they might resort to the Fields to slug it out over an artifact or a piece of land.

XulsigaeSep 26, 20147 votes

Would you happen to have an example of a champion that you couldn't possibly think of a good reason for them to join the League? I'd accept weak reasons to join rather than no IoW to join. Heck Cupcake has been thinking of some in the past few days, and many others have been making up some ever since you stopped officially giving them. Of course that's just us with all our spare time and all, but it does show that it can be done.

Also, I'll point out (again, as has been pointed out many times before) the League did not prevent things from happening necessarily. Champions had lives and loves and businesses and all that good stuff WHILE being part of the League. Brawls happened, Blitzcrank punched Singed. While HUGE WORLD DESTROYING CONFLICTS were probably unable to happen due to League oversight, that's fine with me. Not every battle has to be for the fate of the world. Smaller details, while not always moving the world forward, make the world more interesting. My example would be Warhammer 40K lore. Will important characters (Money making) be killed off? Nope. Will Terra be taken by Chaos? Never! But the universe of Warhammer keeps expanding with more novels and games and such. They add without pushing the overall plot forward, and that's fine. I know you have a different philosophy of story telling than Games Workshop, but it shows how nothing HUGE can happen, but the world still seems full of events of importance. Even without the League, you can't kill champions off- It's a video game. You can't remove Garen in a deadly attack. You're still stuck with telling a game, but now with even fewer reasons for them to remain alive (or undead) rather than be assassinated or whatnot. There's still no feeling of 'Oh no, will they ever survive.'

Having a 'Crisis' of sort would at least show you cared about the previous iteration of lore to give it a proper send off. As it is, it seems that it just was too much and is being swept away like dust. Dust that never existed.

CupcakeTrapSep 26, 20148 votes

Well said.

I'd add that HUGE WORLD DESTROYING CONFLICTS are problematic even without the League. Unchecked warfare stomps out at least as many stories as it opens up, and probably more. You can only write about a bloodbath for so long before it becomes tedious. (40K illustrates an exception through excess.) Even without such world-destroying conflicts, unchecked aggression and international rule by brute force create certain problems.

One example: Azir and Shurima. Without the League to recognize Shurima and put at least some kind of obstacle in the way of its would-be conquerors, his re-nascent empire would surely turn into a client-state, its temples looted for artifacts. I guess you could handwave him a gigantic army or some uber-powerful magic, but then that effectively terminates his "rise from the ashes" storyline. With the League, his protection is constantly in jeopardy, providing ready plot material: maybe his initial petition succeeded, but what if Noxus engineered a scheme to turn Demacia against Shurima? He could lose that vital protection and end up a Noxian province. Even if he maintains it, surely there'll be some nipping at his heels. Maybe someone will try to annex a piece of Shuriman territory.

In the Azir example, the League also provides a perfect segue into a game mode clash, with the results determining how the story of that sub-region develops: as part of Shurima, or as part of another faction. Summoners on the victorious side can cheer as the next lore update spotlights a Champion from their faction thanking them for their service; Summoners on the losing side can curse their foes and vow revenge. Without the League, we just sit on the sidelines eating popcorn. That's a lot less exciting to me.

A simpler example: the League allows more lighthearted conflicts that focus less on gore and death and more on adventure and discovery. In my ideas thread, for instance, I sketched out a League-focused plot wherein the Freljord and Bandle City fight over a second "Mothership". You can have conflict in a League universe that doesn't result in eternal burning hatred.

moogle890Sep 26, 201424 votes

The Institute of War became an issue because it was created to tell a game rather than tell a story. Its inherent structure to focus Valoran's conflict into specific areas meant we would have to consistently work around it in order to create many of the stories we are passionate about telling. There were a variety of ways that we could have done that, including destroying the IoW (Nashorzilla?). However, that would have left us with aspects of our world that we wanted to improve upon and change, which we would have to explain individually through story. Stories that would essentially be explanations, which was the main issue with the IoW in the first place.

I think Riot and the Lore fans have VERY different interpretations of what exactly the Institute of War, Summoners, and "Why did X Champion join the League. I'm pretty sure most of us Lore fans saw the Institute and the Summoners as peacekeepers that only intervened when ABSOLUTELY necessary along with maintaining the League of Legends summoning to the Fields of Justice and whatnot. Summoners are not omnipotent beings that can stop war with a snap of their fingers. Summoners are people, they would have to discuss things with various world leaders in Runterra (Jarvan, Swain, Karma, etc.) In the old JoJ, the Kalamanda incident was stopped when DOZENS of Summoners along with assistance from Zilean worked together to stop the conflict before it escalated into another full fledged war.

The Institute can do more than just be a place where people talk about politics and fighting. Think about it, this is the one place in all of Runeterra where people can come from all over into a more or less safe fire zone. Think of all the people that can exchange their ideas and philosophies without worrying about the others trying to kill them. It could be considered a cultural melting pot of information, rather than just a building where war is discussed. (Hell rename it from Institute of War to something else if you need to) But what really gets me the most is that despite all our protests and explanations given as to how we think the world can function easily without retconning the entire League of Legends, you all seem to just be ignoring us. And it breaks my heart to see everything i've grow to love about League of Legends lore just practically shatter apart and we're left trying to pick up the pieces.

I love the character centric things like the Shurima event and Sion's Reborn thing, but they could easily have happened with the League of Legends still in existance. Without it, almost all of these characters have no reason to even associate with each other. Why would Nidalee care about what happens to Ashe and Tryndamere in the Freljord now without the League? At least when it was still there, she knew them as fellow champions and may have even gotten the chance to talk to them and learn something outside of the jungle she lives in. Now she's just there. And this applies to lots of Champions. Please listen to us and our ideas. I get you have some awesome character centric stuff coming up, but you've got to have a world to put them in, and we liked this world having a centralized place to meet and associate with each other. Please and thank you for reading all of this.

CupcakeTrapSep 26, 201415 votes

One of the best posts in this thread. Fantastic points about how to understand the League (or rework it) and the storytelling advantages it offers.

I'd add that the resolution of Kalamanda was as much about Demacia and Noxus as about the League. Yes, they used magic to stop the fighting "by force", but it seems to me it only worked because Demacia and Noxus then agreed to back off. I imagine it as being similar to two brawlers being pulled apart by their friends, then (after that forced separation), the two of them re-evaluating and storming off in opposite directions after some glares.

But let's not discount the League story. You could write about Zilean, or Summoners, or some other pro-League Champions desperately trying to avert a new Rune War. Riot scoffs at the time-freeze as a "handwave", but from an in-universe perspective, it was a game of chicken with horrific stakes. If Demacia and Noxus hadn't "swerved", the League would have collapsed. It may have turned what could have remained a regional clash into a world war and the destruction of the League. It was a high-stakes gamble. That's great story material.

Saxy BeatsSep 26, 201412 votes

I feel the biggest problem is that, through their lack of dialogue, Riot had thought they were being pushed into the corner by the community when really the community was more than willing to give them ways out of that corner.

If they had been paying attention, they would have realized that nobody had the same concept of the League's involvement in the world as they had thought, so the problems they were sure of having were non-issues.

Riot, the lore community is not something to be scared of! We want to help the game's story just as much as you say you do, but to do that you need to have a dialogue with us before things are set in stone, not just announce it after the fact.

Rastamon GanjaOct 4, 20145 votes

Why won't Riot ever comment on the posts that are well thought?

GixiaSep 26, 20144 votes

However, that would have left us with aspects of our world that we wanted to improve upon and change, which we would have to explain individually through story. Stories that would essentially be explanations, which was the main issue with the IoW in the first place.

Something I think gets overlooked is that, yes, these stories would have just been explanations, but having to make them would have only been temporary. You only have to make explanation stories until the explaining is done and the scene has been properly set, and then you wouldn't have had to do them anymore. It also would have resulted in a much smoother transition from old to new.

CupcakeTrapSep 26, 20144 votes

Something I think gets overlooked is that, yes, these stories would have just been explanations, but having to make them would have only been temporary. You only have to make explanation stories until the explaining is done and the scene has been properly set, and then you wouldn't have had to do them anymore. It also would have resulted in a much smoother transition from old to new.

Indeed. Though I hasten to add that I'm far from convinced about the necessity of the removal of the League in the first place. Maybe having a period with no League would be interesting, but long-term, I think there are many more story avenues with the League. (And even during the League's absence, you'd want some kind of explanation for the game, even if it's just "the Fields of Justice are now used as training grounds.")

GixiaSep 26, 20144 votes

I don't think the removal of the League is a necessity either, but at the end of the day, my primary concern lies with retcons and how detrimental they are to telling a cohesive story. While I would prefer the League to stay, I could at least tolerate it being removed if it was done via an actual story rather than just erasing vast swathes of history.

DG AshabelSep 27, 201415 votes

The Institute of War became an issue because it was created to tell a game rather than tell a story. Its inherent structure to focus Valoran's conflict into specific areas meant we would have to consistently work around it in order to create many of the stories we are passionate about telling. There were a variety of ways that we could have done that, including destroying the IoW (Nashorzilla?). However, that would have left us with aspects of our world that we wanted to improve upon and change, which we would have to explain individually through story. Stories that would essentially be explanations, which was the main issue with the IoW in the first place.

I could discuss the rest of the things you said, but here is the bottom line.

You aren't telling a story. You are telling a game.

League of Legends is a video game. It was designed as one, with narrative logic that exists to support its nature as a game. As a game designer, it's your duty to create a story that can create immersion for the players and make them feel like a part of the story, even if they're just glorified radio support for a champion. It's also your duty to design a narrative that can function within the rules of a video game. You may argue about it all you want, but here is another bottom line.

If you dislike telling stories within the context of video game rules, you should probably consider telling stories through books or movies or animation. That isn't to say you're a bad writer, it simply means that your writing talents don't sit within the strict limitation of narrating through video games.

What you shouldn't do is take a video game narrative and remove it from the game because you feel like video game rules restrict you. Especially not when it's a game with complex established lore. When you do that, you don't look like you're trying to improve narrative quality. You don't look like you're contributing something.

You actually look sort of like this:

You actually look sort of like this.

You might not realize it, but plenty of indie game developers are currently discussing this decision, and a lot of us are both afraid and embarrassed. Our industry has spent over a decade trying to prove that video games can be a storytelling medium, we provided examples and arguments, and then comes Riot Games - the biggest indie game company in the world - and announces that they're separating the story from the game because you believe it's impossible to tell a story through a game.

You continue to insist that you care about what your fans think, but you've so far ignored and dismissed every single complaint about destroying the immersion within the game. And the truth of the matter is, you just set the argument for video games as a storytelling medium back by a decade with a single blog post.

The thing is, you aren't telling a story. You're telling a game. And so far, every time you started discussing lore, you came off like you don't actually care about the game or any of its players. You just want to tell your story, by your rules (as opposed to ones of the game), and forget how that affects everyone else.

The tone of your messages is very selfish and contemptuous, and it's been that for a while. You should realize by now that retracing the same old argument for why this change is good isn't going to work. It's not going to work because you're trying to tell video game players that you're in charge of the narrative for their video game and yet refuse to tell a story through said game.

CupcakeTrapSep 28, 20146 votes

It's not going to work because you're trying to tell video game players that you're in charge of the narrative for their video game and yet refuse to tell a story through said game.

This is a compelling argument, deployed to absolutely devastating effect. Very well said.

Not only is there a structural imperative behind the game/lore link, but I think the constraint of writing a story that fits with the game actually spurs on creativity and originality. The League was by far LoL's most interesting plot point: otherwise, it's just a slapdash pastiche of disjointed fantasy and sci-fi settings.

When writing Factions lore, I find that at least half the fun is finding ways to translate game events and mechanics into an in-universe form. It's entertaining, but also immersive.

DG AshabelSep 28, 20145 votes

The rules are definitely one of the more difficult parts. I'm a game designer, though not a big one. You'll never have heard of me, as my visual novel is currently stuck in limbo while I'm trying to find an illustrator willing to tackle it. But it's definitely hard to explain the gameplay mechanics through the narrative, why the character moves in those exact patterns and so on.

You need to explain why your character can or cannot jump. You need to explain why their attacks are patterned the way they are, or why they cannot attack. Why they have a home base or roam free around the world. Why or how they interact with people. And in MOBAs, you need an excuse for all of the characters to come together and beat up each other.

Video game lore exists for that specific reason of expanding on in-game events. If we remove it, then we might as well bring our art assets all the way back to Pong. No need for story, plot or even character designs. Away with the fanciful new Summoner's Rift or character skins, since all those have a story to them. If you're seriously going to tear the lore out of the game, then please be a dear and turn this game into a blank football field with such characters as Archer A, Archer B, Stance-Shifting Fist-Punch, Ball Tosser and Axe Guy.

WhitakkerSep 29, 20144 votes

Man, I'm gone for the weekend to a convention, and I return to see another fastball down the middle by CCT. This may as well be called our "State of the (Lore)Union" address.

Great example of the disconnect between how Riot handles community interaction as it regards Champion balance/gameplay and how it regards Lore. Emerson was famously quoted, "Your actions speak so loudly, I can not hear what you are saying." Thus it is with Riot and their relationship with its own Lore.

On the other hand, the recent Shurima/Noxus stuff is a little bit promising, if only because of its activity of any sort from Creative. I'll take something over nothing at this point.

ThorRushSep 26, 20145 votes

The reception Creative forum goers are going to get will get better if they can get people to like them. Right now, that hasn't really happened.

I find it strange that the switch to Boards happened this way first, before being corrected. It seems like Riot thought it was the best way to do it: there was no way it was going to be popular, but Riot did it anyway. Did Riot think it was going to be like pulling off a bandaid, worse now, better later?

... Does Riot take this approach often?

TerraRisingSep 26, 201419 votes

My biggest piece of feedback for everyone here is that you need to make them feel more welcome, and less like they have to walk into a lions den to talk with you.

(This essay is to attempt give you a feeling of how Narrative seems to have treated their fans for the past three years, whether they intended to or not. There will be no tl;dr since I believe every word is important.)

Tamat, sir. You've been working for Riot for a long time, but I don't think you're aware of the sort of environment the various Lore and Narrative teams have created among their fanbase.

Three years of forced changes without warning or discussion, exasperated cries of "why don't you like this" and "why can't you accept that our new stories are better" followed by silence then empty apologies for not communicating before more forced changes...you get the cycle. The apologies have always felt empty and cynical, the changes always feel like a full colonoscope delivered without warning or anesthesia (and the camera is shut off), and the silent treatment always feels like contempt and haughtiness from Narrative.

Add to that a constant barrage from other League fans who've told us "Stop caring about Lore cause Riot doesn't anymore" and "Lore doesn't make Riot money like eSports does" and comments from non-lore Rioters that things like the "Twist of Fate" and "New Dawn" cinematics, Jinx Music Video, the Braum/Poro cartoon, and the Spirit Guard Udyr comic (all marketing tools to sell the game, champs or skins) and the Voice Over Taunts (easter eggs) were all "lore."

Then comes the Dev Blog and the cycle repeated again. Grand overtures of apologies, promises of more communication and a big change to the story we know and love before a month of near silence. It didn't help when that one Rioter dismissed criticism of the in-client short lore with an inappropriate movie quote and a dismissive comment about how it was "pointless to talk to us because they can't make everyone happy."

I've written books already here and on Twitter to Narrative team members explaining how poor we've been treated, how frustrated and cynical we've become and how mistrusting we currently are about their latest set of promises and their inability or unwillingness to deliver on them. If they consider that too intimidating, they don't understand what their silence has done and continues to do to their fanbase.

It's really up to Narrative to prove they're willing to repair their bridges, deal with our frustration and anger, and start the healing process. It has to be up to them, since we're still here waiting for them to start talking. They're the ones in control of the conversation. They always have been and, if they do it right for long enough, they can forge that healthy relationship between the company and the fans...

It's up to them, lions den or no. We're still waiting...

CupcakeTrapSep 26, 201411 votes

Our biggest motivator to transition to the boards wasn't to silence anyone, it was to make a lot more noise! I want to see the the folks at Riot that work on the story to have a much more active presence here. My biggest piece of feedback for everyone here is that you need to make them feel more welcome, and less like they have to walk into a lions den to talk with you.

If I can say one more thing, I'd like to paraphrase some comments I made to a friend the other day.

There's a tone issue, and probably not the one you think. So far, maybe because they're so anxious, the Narrative team has been very … polite, in a particularly unsettling "corporate" way. This sort of bubbly, ever-positive, yet strangely distant tone can aggravate feelings of powerlessness and relegation.

Imagine if a Summoner (grr!) posted the following argument.

The narrative prose is nice and all, but we feel lost without an accompanying "encyclopedic" entry that plainly summarizes what's happening with the big picture. You gave us a little short story of someone (Rengar?) hunting down Gnar, but that perspective-piece doesn't give us the detail we need to imagine Runeterra post-Gnar. Has he moved to Bandle City? Did he eat Rengar? Did he run away into the far reaches of the Freljord? Us lore-geeks like some big-picture history to go with our POV fiction.

Let's say that Riot just does not agree. Well, here's how I might imagine Lore-Morello (Lorello?) responding.

Yeah, I see what you mean, but here's the thing: we don't actually have that big picture worked out, and it's a real chore to do so. POV pieces let us keep it vague and be more flexible in the future. So that's why we're not providing that kind of JoJ-style reporting any more. World-building isn't really our goal: we want compelling, engaging fiction that adds flavor rather than just data.

That's a starting point for discussion. Lorello would, if he takes after his brother, probably then stick around to argue back and forth. He might take some of those ideas to the team, and ask, "okay, well, I hate JoJ-style stuff, but there's a lot of demand. Anything we can do?" (Compare: Morello and healers, beginning with well-argued reasons for disliking them in their current form, but then giving the green light for another team to make a "healthy healer" Soraka.) He's taking your arguments somewhat seriously (if they warrant it), and that comes through.

Not to be nasty, because I think this is a matter of mistakes and anxiety rather than intractable evil, but here's how I'd caricature the Narrative team response style.

Oh! He might like sticking around in the Freljord. :) It's nice and cool up there! I bet he'd make adorable little snow-Gnars! Haha! He'd love poros. Anyway, I totally understand where you're coming from. It drives me CRAZY as an author when I don't know what's going on in the big picture! We think you'll really enjoy watching the rest of Gnar's story unfold. The little guy's got lots of adventures ahead of him! :)

This makes me want to punch a hole in my monitor.

I can only imagine how stressful it is to feel like you're always in a press conference, your every word being scrutinized. But maybe we're so scrutinizing because we're scrabbling for any purchase we can find on this smooth cliff face of glossy corporate pep-speak.

Lorello will call you an idiot, or at least say your arguments are bad. Lorello isn't trying to be your bestest pal. But he's talking to you, and he really does seem to take community feedback seriously.

The Narrative team response so far — and again, maybe this is because they're just really anxious — makes me twitch, because I feel like I'm having a one-way conversation with a bin full of shiny emoticons and sanitized press releases. It's like trying to eat a piece of wax fruit.

C9 Scott Free Sep 26, 20149 votes

You know if the Shurima story had more depth then the lore change would have had some redemption. But, it was rather lackluster from a writing standpoint. The best part of the lore for shurima was the accompanying visuals the story was, well, childish in its writing. I figured if you would so brazenly delete so much that I cared for the story would be a lot deeper but it wasn't. It was lighter in a lot of ways because the individual focus was gone and the story was the story of shurima not Azir, or ren or any of the others if that makes sense at all. The character depth has been lost.

Neon RobotSep 26, 20149 votes

[deleted]

CupcakeTrapSep 26, 20144 votes

That's pretty fair. I guess I mean "bad corporate" or "stereotypical corporate".

Again: I don't think they're bad people. I think they're nervous, and under orders to keep things secret. But if this goes on much longer, then as you say the anger is going to spread.

RiotAce of TrollsSep 26, 20145 votes

Actually, the writers are people just like you. Most are in their 20's; some started as interns and Riot was their first job. Others have experience with other video games or even TV shows. They all love story and writing, and can geek out for hours discussing an anime cartoon or the plot twist of some obscure sci-fi movie. Some have spouses and families to care for and come home way too late to. Some are single and are greeted by an adoring pair of pit bulls at night. It's a bunch of lovable introverts, oddballs and outcasts that dream about stories all day, and have the talent, training and temperament to convert the insanity in their heads into words in between countless meetings and deadlines.

An often-told joke at Riot is that we're building the engines on a plane as its flying through the air. For what we've been attempting these last few weeks, there isn't a text book for what we're trying to do. Sometimes, we get it wrong and we deserve the name "Rito". I wish there was someone who could look over my shoulder as I write this, so I could ask, "Is this okay? Can I say this? What about this?" but there isn't. It's just me, the keyboard, and a taunting brown "Post" button, darling me to click it.

We'll do better. We'll screw up again. We'll try harder.

Most of all, thanks for caring about the world of Runeterra and the champions that live and breathe in it. What we're going to attempt in the years to come, we're going to do for players just like you.

CupcakeTrapSep 26, 201415 votes

Are we really back to the square one of "we don't hate you" already? Very well. It's true: we don't hate you. (At least, I don't, and most others don't seem to either.) I like you guys! I'd love to crack open a ThaumaKola with you and chat. I know the passion's there. And as you say, we're each other's fungible equivalents (young, geeky, etc.) and would I imagine hit it off great. It's just that then I'd look at you and say, "so, about that retcon." and judging by past experience you'd throw down a smoke-bomb and vanish out the window.

We get that it's super-busy. I've been spending way too much time on Factions and LoL lore; my roommate recently said, seeing me come home from work and immediately start doing Factions admin, that "your idea of 'fun' looks an awful lot like other people's idea of 'work'." But of course, the pressure is greater for you, because this is your career, not just your pastime. I respect that. I respect that I can post whatever I like without repercussion, other than messing up future Riot career prospects (though I think those are already pretty toast at this point, and I made the decision to speak plainly with that cost soberly acknowledged), while you have to worry if what you're saying is going to get you yelled at by your boss.

What I'm suggesting is that you bring this feedback to your boss, and to the team: there is virtually zero community engagement when it comes to lore, in marked contrast to how Riot handles pretty much everything else. If that's a deliberate policy, and I can see why it might be, then fine. But if it really is an error, as you say, then I urge you vehemently to raise the topic internally so that solutions can be discussed.

As mentioned, I think you should start with this League retcon. You keep alluding to internal debate, but there was never any community debate. You keep referencing arguments and decisions that we were never even informed of. You wiped us out over concerns that we were never given a chance to address. How about we bring some of that discussion out into public view. If your managers really care about community, they'll be willing to give people some extensions so that the lore team can pause, reflect, and discuss. Otherwise, every new lore reveal, no matter how well-designed, alienates us further.

Or, hey, fine. Maybe you're just absolutely adamant that the League of Legends lore you're writing never mention terms like "Summoner", "Champion", or "the League of Legends". Whatever: the fan community can take that over. Even if so, let's at least talk substantively about something that you do agree exists. Tell us what the next factions are for your story updates. Talk to us seriously about ideas you have. Get feedback. Get ideas. Engage with us like Riot usually engages with its pla— … you know what, screw this, with its Summoners.

AmbushIntheDarkSep 26, 20148 votes

Most of all, thanks for caring about the world of Runeterra and the champions that live and breathe in it. What we're going to attempt in the years to come, we're going to do for players just like you.

You guys keep saying that, but you ignore or disregard any feedback we give. Think the new WW and Raka lore doesnt have anywhere to go? You're wrong. Dont like Trundle's new lore? Too bad. Everyone thinks the Shurima event was a steaming pile of fail? Deal with it. Dont understand why you're removing the League from the game? Figure it out.

All we get from you guys are excuses and dodged questions. "We promise we'll do better", "we got some really cool things coming up" and "We're sorry about not interacting with you guys as much". Throw in the infuriating fact that the only rioters who even post in these forums either dont know anything more about the lore than we do (because they work in marketing or design) or make a single universally hated post every 5 months and its a recipe for disaster.

And the worst part is, we're only just going to get more excuses, and things are going to continue to be as it is now. You guys want to actually work on restoring faith in you? Actually try. It would work wonders.

cwcrinerSep 26, 20147 votes

The saying goes, "once bitten, twice shy."

Now think about how many times Lore fans have been bitten.

Now think about what your predecessors have said in the past.

Now look at what was supposedly the biggest take-away of the trundle relaunch.

Now compare that to how much you are violating that lesson.

Is it any surprise that pretty much nobody is willing to give you any more rope/time/chances?

When it comes to the lore team, I don't trust you anymore, and I sincerely doubt I ever will.

C9 Scott Free Oct 9, 20144 votes

Actually, the writers are people just like you. Most are in their 20's; some started as interns and Riot was their first job. Others have experience with other video games or even TV shows. They all love story and writing, and can geek out for hours discussing an anime cartoon or the plot twist of some obscure sci-fi movie. Some have spouses and families to care for and come home way too late to. Some are single and are greeted by an adoring pair of pit bulls at night. It's a bunch of lovable introverts, oddballs and outcasts that dream about stories all day, and have the talent, training and temperament to convert the insanity in their heads into words in between countless meetings and deadlines.

An often-told joke at Riot is that we're building the engines on a plane as its flying through the air. For what we've been attempting these last few weeks, there isn't a text book for what we're trying to do. Sometimes, we get it wrong and we deserve the name "Rito". I wish there was someone who could look over my shoulder as I write this, so I could ask, "Is this okay? Can I say this? What about this?" but there isn't. It's just me, the keyboard, and a taunting brown "Post" button, darling me to click it.

We'll do better. We'll screw up again. We'll try harder.

Most of all, thanks for caring about the world of Runeterra and the champions that live and breathe in it. What we're going to attempt in the years to come, we're going to do for players just like you.

Do not take this personally but if the writing stays on par with what the Shurima event gave us you guys might need a new team. I don't mean to be mean either. The writing was one giant explanation. A story is supposed to tell itself not be continuously narrated. Where was the actual dialogue etc? Nowhere. If you guys are going to write lore of 1st grade caliber then I don't know if League needs lore changes. Your demographic in reality is young adult/teen primarily and you need to write at least on par with that mentality. The Shurima event should have been about how cool the writing was and redeemed the smack in the face of removing JOJ and IOW. Instead we just got a bunch of pretty pictures.

Ark Angel HFBSep 26, 20147 votes

Maybe... and I might not be on point here but hear me out...

Maybe if you had talked to us once in two years before removing player immersion in your game. the back lash might have been less dramatic.

Instead you have accomplished having at least a few hundred vocal Core lore fans completely un-invest in characters they had love'd for over 5 years.

On top of this the Lore change removed players from the game world... which like it or not, Freedom in story telling is not worth. On top of that... most people that do any kind of creative writing find the concept that the IoW was too limiting silly.

The logic behind it is so flawed that it comes off as an insult to our intelligence that you would even suggest that as the reason.