Trundle's Champion Update; was it a success?

turkeyBACON·Sep 30, 2014·13 votes·15,830 views

Please vote below! (and comment if you'd like to explain)

It's been a year and a half since Trundle's Visual and Lore revamp. He was changed to allow more story development and to improve on the old and poorly aging visuals. Did it achieve its goals? I'm curious of getting the general player base's opinion and if Riot wants to comment, that would be welcomed too.

http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130501083140/leagueoflegends/images/8/89/Trundle_TraditionalSkin.jpg http://www.newsoflegends.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/Trundle-Splash.jpg

85 Comments

PryotraSep 30, 20147 votes

Everyone, including Riot, agrees they made a huge mistake, and really shouldn't have done what they did. Even Riot agrees they should have preserved the old Trundle, and instead they deleted the character that made the champion.

As far as fixing their mistake, We could end up waiting a year, or it may never happen. This is rito we are talking about. Takes a while to admit failure, takes a ten times that to get the ball rolling on fixing that.

turkeyBACONSep 30, 20144 votes

Even if they said that it was a mistake; they made the changes for a reason. I'm curious if they achieved their goal. They put a lot of time and effort into the changes, someone needed to gain something from it. I assume Riot ultimately made the changes hoping Trundle would become more popular and thus could sell more skins. I could be wrong though.

RiotJesterCappSep 30, 201425 votes

I disagree with the statement that "everyone" considers it a mistake. The perspective I get, from conversations like this panel transcript (http://www.pcgamesn.com/leagueoflegends/riot-talk-their-most-controversial-lol-champion-update-ever-we-learned-ton-trundles-relaunch), is that we feel the VU was overall in a positive direction, but we need to improve our communication when making such large changes. At the time, I remember seeing strong opinions on both sides on the forums. Some people loved old Trundle, some love the new one. Was it a controversial change? Certainly. Would we have done it again, knowing what we know now? Probably, but we would have rolled it out differently and communicated better.

That said, still eager to hear how players, new and old, feel about this change and where Trundle sits as a character now. Thanks for your thoughts.

DuilliathSep 30, 201415 votes

As someone who argued vehemently against the update, my opinion hasn't changed much.

I think that the gameplay update work perfectly fine. I even didn't much mind the patched up look.

What I did dislike, and do to this day, is that the old Trundle was essentially overwritten and ceased to exist. It was a wholly unique character in the Riot IP, a truly tragic hero.

If something is being shipped as an 'update', you expect to see a spiffy version of the character you already know. The new look could've been more reminiscent of the old Trundle (hair, dance, same voice actor). More importantly, there was no reason to erase the best lore ever written in League (debatable, sure, but it can not be argued that, say, Jax walking into the Institute of War and the doors swinging open without judgement was better storytelling). It would've been far better, and easier, to simply continue the lore. Finally let stories evolve, characters evolve. A new alliance formed and Trundle found some restraint for the plague wrecking his body in the frozen lands of Freljord.

Instead, we got a completely new Trundle, with a completely new character. Rather than the wily wiry underdog, we get a brutish new figure.

In comparison: Karma remained the same character. Sejuani remained the same character. For Sion it was announced in advance he was to be re-envisioned entirely anew and even now he fairly closely matches what he used to be. Trundle ceased to exist and a new character was inserted, which Riot pretended was the same character.

That is the major gripe the naysayers have. We lost a special character. One that stood out among the mighty fighters or busty babes so prevalent throughout 2013.

CuixOct 1, 20146 votes

I agree overall, but I really don't think Karma remained the same character. She went from a modest, aloof, matronly peacekeeper to an aggressive, energetic, proud young warrior. Trundle definitely got it worse, though.

Remlap1223Oct 1, 20141 votes

I honestly believe that Trundle wasn't changed much. The wily wiry underdog? Trundle lost his challenge to the old Troll Chieftain. Just being a stereotypical troll, he tricked the chieftain into finding an old weapon of legend that Trundle "mysteriously" found lying around. So yeah, while Trundle isn't a little pipsqueak anymore, he still somewhat resembles his old self.

Mclovin aka tdonOct 1, 20144 votes

I honestly believe that Trundle wasn't changed much. The wily wiry underdog? Trundle lost his challenge to the old Troll Chieftain. Just being a stereotypical troll, he tricked the chieftain into finding an old weapon of legend that Trundle "mysteriously" found lying around. So yeah, while Trundle isn't a little pipsqueak anymore, he still somewhat resembles his old self.

While I am no trundle fan (I don't think I have ever played him), His origins and story are completely different. It almost is a 180 at how different they are. His old lore was never about being power hunger, magical weapons or schemes, it was about wanting to find a cure for the curse on his tribe. The answer he finds is that he doesn't need or want their acceptance and finds a new home within the walls of the League of Legends.

Now whether you find the old or new lore better is somewhat of a personal question (while the old lore for him had flaws, I felt it was better written than the new lore) you have to admit that these two lores are very different. You could argue that these could be two different champs completely from how they are written.

Lord MakribSep 30, 20142 votes

I would like to see the skins splash arts updated!! Please :D

SanshokuOct 1, 20142 votes

I would like to see the skins splash arts updated!! Please :D

I wounder if it would be possible to do this on an anniversary day (so either December 1 or whenever the rework was done, with fair warning) with one more chance to buy Traditional Trundle.

StarlighteSep 30, 201411 votes

Now Jester I realize you are a technical artist and this is entirely outside of your field of expertise or something that you can even speak to. But I figure that you made certain points in your comment that try to entirely deflect the OP's post. And deflecting is not conducive to conversation.

So, although this is outside of your area of expertise, this is still a hotly contested issue and I would implore and beg you to rethink how you phrase certain things. Text cannot deliver a face-to-face experience so even though this may sound find when you're explaining it to somebody, in text you need to put extra effort into not coming across a certain way.

I disagree with the statement that "everyone" considers it a mistake.

Anyone could respond this way to just about any controversial decision. Sure EVERY SINGLE PERSON doesn't agree with that, but don't make a fallacy by suggesting that everyone correlates to a majority, or to dismiss the OP's point that there is a very large group of players who considered it a mistake.

The perspective I get, from conversations like this panel transcript (http://www.pcgamesn.com/leagueoflegends/riot-talk-their-most-controversial-lol-champion-update-ever-we-learned-ton-trundles-relaunch ), is that we feel the VU was overall in a positive direction, but we need to improve our communication when making such large changes.

To put this one bluntly, Riot has been claiming they need to improve communication for years. The communication hasn't been improved. Look at what they did with the Cass rework. It was put on PBE for a very short period of time, and even though players tested and very outwardly said that she was incredibly weak and lost her theme, Riot pushed her to live and look at where she sits now. Urgot tier. Making a mistake and then claiming to need to improve in the future does nothing. What would make a difference is to then retroactively make changes to show your good intentions of communicating (albeit, retroactively because you didn't listen to fans originally)

Would we have done it again, knowing what we know now? Probably, but we would have rolled it out differently and communicated better.

This comes across as saying, "Hey, even with all the input and negative feedback we got, we still would've done this because we know better than you." And this is the sentiment people feel emanating from Riot constantly. This superiority complex disenfranchises the community, and rapidly destroys constructive feedback which you then close your comment by asking for. No offense, but why even bother to ask for feedback? Everyone, yourself included, knows that even if every single player in NA responded to that post and told you they hated the new trundle, Riot wouldn't revert or make new changes to him. It seems dishonest to be interested in our input/feedback, when it won't be taken into any legitimate consideration.

FatedTitanSep 30, 201425 votes

There were many issues with the update, communication being a key one. The skills weren't changed at all, only cleaned up a bit and adjusted for today's meta. In fact, I think he was nerfed a bit by no longer being able to Ult Dragon/Baron for objective securing. It was a unique aspect of him that really helped.

But the real issues was people like GrumpyMonkey blatantly lying to Trundle players even two months before the announcement. I remember him quite clearly saying that we still had our leprous troll, just getting a VU. I remember him stating that they would give Trundle his 3 limb walk, but that never happened. Just so many lies and deception that Trundle players felt that Riot gave them the finger and walked out of the room.

Then there's the retcon in general that destroyed an amazing character. The idea of "we can tell more stories" was used by Riot but destroyed by others. The fact of the matter is that Riot doesn't tell stories with their characters. They're trying to do better now, but with 121 champs and counting, it'll be years before we hear anything about Trundle in lore. And that's a hope. The point was to connect him more to Runeterra, but they didn't help it at all. They changed him from the unloved martyr to the douchebag ice troll.

Also doesn't help when people like Morello say for months that Trundle was a mistake(pre-rework). How would you feel if you had to hear devs say over and over again that your favorite champion was a mistake?

This doesn't even get into the destruction of my favorite skin ever in the game, Lil' Slugger Trundle. Now he's Adult Softball Trundle. You killed the old school baseball charm that made me love it. I refunded that thing so fast.

As you can see, Trundle is still dear to my heart. Every now and then I'll go to YouTube just to watch an old video of him. My favorite champ with my favorite story was destroyed. There was no success in the change. It did nothing to help the character. All it did was make him generic and uncreative. And yea yea I've heard that it hurts Riot to hear these things, but it's the case. I never play Trundle without Traditional on, even though I always used Lil' Slugger before. But that thing's just intolerable now.

So failure of an update imo. I know many will disagree and I'll get downvoted because of my passion for old Trundle, but that's how I feel. I wish there was a way to get him back..

RiotJesterCappSep 30, 201410 votes

I appreciate you posting your opinions on this. I think you have a lot of good points, and I agree that we said some things that we didn't deliver on.

Despite what some might believe, we appreciate it when we get candid feedback. We need that to get better. It does suck when players think we're lying or doing something *maliciously *- usually it's just that someone f'ed up. Knowing GrumpyMonkey, I'm sure that at the time, he thought those things were true (keeping the disease-troll theme, the walk, etc.) Production decisions change frequently, which is why promising something before it's done sometimes bites us in the butt. I know that's not much of a consolation after the fact, but I just want to try to reiterate that.

Thanks again for your thoughts, and I hope you're happier with us in the future.

Sneak DogSep 30, 20143 votes

First I'd like to say thank you for posting a good post (though I disagree with it, but that's irrelevant this paragraph). I know posting on the forums is voluntary and especially the lore forums can be intimidating.

For Trundle, personally I'm just hoping Riot will come back to him. Admitting you didn't do something too well is great, but if nothing happens with it we don't get much out of it. Not all mistakes cease to exist after admitting and if appropriate apologising for them (though some are solved exactly like that).

AmbushIntheDarkOct 1, 201410 votes

Despite what some might believe, we appreciate it when we get candid feedback. We need that to get better.

But you guys never ACT on it. Just more "we'll do better" and then you vanish for 6 months, and come out with something that shows you clearly didn't learn from the last time. The single most hated thing about the Freljord event was the unnecessary retcons. You took that information and went "You know what we should do? MORE unnecessary retcons, and while we're at it, we'll even leave those champs with only 3 sentences of lore to compensate. Add that we wont tell the community before hand and refuse to change it and its sure to be a hit!"

RiotJesterCappOct 1, 20147 votes

Lore isn't my expertise, but I think the folks working on that have expressed agreement with you, that we haven't done the best in the past. We're trying to get better. I really liked reading and watching what was provided in the Shurima event, and I look forward to seeing what else is added as we move forward. I thought the Sion reveal was awesome. I think we should keep doing that stuff. Maybe we shouldn't have touched the champs who weren't included in the main content until we had something more thorough (Rammus, Skarner, etc.) I think that's valid criticism.

I'm sorry that it feels we "never act." I would argue that sometimes we very much respond to feedback... re-designing the colors on the Warmonger Sion skin is the most recent example I can think of. From gameplay, Varus indicator was one from a patch ago. Sometimes we hear the feedback and choose not to act. Sometimes we want to act, but for whatever reason it takes us a long time or something else takes priority. I can't speak to every example, but we try to do what we can.

XulsigaeOct 1, 20146 votes

You (Riot) are pretty good at accepting and acting on feed back about pretty much anything but Lore lately it seems (I can't see behind the scenes so that's just how it seems). The last lore thing I can remember that was changed due to fan feedback was Kat's 'passionate' overload. If there are any more recently I apologize for not keeping up, but the number is still dwarfed by the amount of changes made by other departments. Even if things aren't changed by Gameplay and such, there is a much better 'illusion' of taking feedback into consideration. Polls, developer talks and Q and As etc.

Thanks for coming here though. It's nice to be noticed by a red interested in what we have to say, even if it's not your area. We aren't all as bad as those that attacked poor Opeli.

TerraRisingOct 1, 201414 votes

This is going to be very snarky.

I'm truly sorry that another non-Narrative Rioter has to receive this, since my beef isn't with most of the company but a select group who would seem to work on a pedestal in an ivory tower and shower contempt and silence on their fans.

Lore isn't my expertise, but I think the folks working on that have expressed agreement with you, that we haven't done the best in the past. We're trying to get better.

Problem being, Narrative isn't trying at all. Where's the communication promised in the Dev Blog last month? Where's the content not related to marketing a new champ or an upgrade? Where's... ANYTHING from Narrative? Narrative just lost another leader, so are we doing to get 18 more months of silence from them since no one from Narrative is willing to step up and say anything at all?

I really liked reading and watching what was provided in the Shurima event, and I look forward to seeing what else is added as we move forward. I thought the Sion reveal was awesome. I think we should keep doing that stuff.

While I agree that the Sion reveal was awesome, I consider all your examples "marketing" and not really storytelling. Narrative had to sell us on these things and was either hit (Sion) or miss (everything Shurima).

Maybe we shouldn't have touched the champs who weren't included in the main content until we had something more thorough (Rammus, Skarner, etc.) I think that's valid criticism.

No, you shouldn't have done that. In hindsight, Narrative shouldn't have announced the retcon either, not until they had their **** together and were ready to talk to lore fans about it. TommyGnox might still have his job if he had.

I'm sorry that it feels we "never act." I would argue that sometimes we very much respond to feedback... re-designing the colors on the Warmonger Sion skin is the most recent example I can think of. From gameplay, Varus indicator was one from a patch ago.

Relatively speaking, those are simple fixes. Warmonger Sion was suggested as the champ was getting his PBE shine. Varus's indicator was QoL improvement that was sorely needed.

Narrative's excuse, it would seem, was that there wasn't a department head they could hide behind, so they kept quiet lest they get in trouble for saying anything.

Sometimes we hear the feedback and choose not to act.

But at least other departments acknowledge that they heard the feedback.

Narrative just tells us "We've had lots of internal debate about this, but we believe this course is best in the long run" then gets exasperated when that doesn't work. They also don't seem to understand that they can't just ask for blind faith that they're doing anything, but they do it anyways and it pisses people off even more.

Sometimes we want to act, but for whatever reason it takes us a long time or something else takes priority.

What sort of priority does Narrative have that is above selling new champs and telling stories? I'm sure they weren't too deeply involved in the Support rework from last preseason, for example.

I can't speak to every example, but we try to do what we can.

Too bad Narrative eiterh doesn't try, won't try or can't try.

PryotraOct 1, 20145 votes

I feel I should have clarified. The VU only failed because it piggiebacked on the worst retcon Riot has ever done, the one retcon that I have yet to see a Rioter truly claim was good (even Kitae admitted it flopped after she stepped off her high horse and looked at it, and she wrote the d@mn thing).

The art itself was fine, and if the lore was good at remaking the character, I probably wouldn't have any beef. But at the end of the day, you deleted a good character, and used his name and kit to make a dumb new one. (by that, I mean that new trundle is borderline retarded. I mean, he sold his race into slavery to become king of the slaves, in order to "save" them.)

I also feel you are feeling unnecessary heat on this, partially because you probably worked on Trundle's new art, and partially because Trundle has become a martyr of lore that fans have rallied around. The Lore team has not only botched him horrifically, they botched shurima and Frejlord alongside it, and get upset at the fans for not liking it even though they refuse to talk or listen to fans before or after the fact, and when they do they get short with the fans and sometimes flat out lie.

And yes, I am counting Skarner, Rammus, and Amumu as lies, as they claimed that the bios would be accompanied by more story, and when pressed they claimed that the story would come with the event. If you are going to delete something to make way for new things, at least follow through with the new things or accept the loss and revert. Don't screw over loyal fans and then throw it in their face like it was their fault all along.

I really hope you pass this thread along to the new Lore lead, with the statement "Try to maybe address the complaints this time around." He needs to see it. The only reason most like the Sion event is because A) No real retcons, and B) it isn't some story that substitutes for lore, but actual lore. Sion probably has the best lore since judgements stopped being a thing. We actually see him get built, get made into the champion that he is, and it doesn't belittle or delete who he was at his core. I hope to see more of that in the future.

ChaoscontrolOct 1, 20145 votes

I'm sorry that it feels we "never act." I would argue that sometimes we very much respond to feedback... re-designing the colors on the Warmonger Sion skin is the most recent example I can think of.

"cough" Sion Traditional Skin, you got feedback start working on it :D "cough"

CupcakeTrapOct 1, 20149 votes

Hi Jester. Nice playing with you a while ago; we should do that again. (I'm one of Fish's associates.)

Like TerraRising, I'm going to take this opportunity to speak not so much to you but to Narrative, though your own good example of community engagement ought, I think, to serve as an admonishment to them.

I would argue that sometimes we very much respond to feedback... re-designing the colors on the Warmonger Sion skin is the most recent example I can think of. From gameplay, Varus indicator was one from a patch ago.

That's the thing: Riot is normally really good about community engagement. Maybe it's all an elaborate ruse, but my impression thus far is that Riot takes community ideas seriously. Rioters come onto the boards to gather community ideas and share their own. They'll debate those ideas, and in many cases they'll at least adjust their plans if the community makes a compelling argument.

The Narrative team has done essentially none of this. I suppose there was the time where they tweaked Jayce's lore vis-a-vis Viktor.

And then there was the time when they decided it was "too hard" to have a League of Legends in their League of Legends lore, and erased the players from the game, along with the League itself. Understandably, they exhausted every alternative before taking such a desperate, immersion-shattering step, and (of course) came to the Community first asking for ideas and feedback to help them find another way.

Oh, wait, no. They didn't. They deliberately avoided the topic for months, even years. Then they rounded us all up and retconned us to oblivion. (Or at least, they tried.) Then they posted a bunch of plastic corporate smile-talk nonsense. It was deeply condescending, and deeply un-Riot.

And then they proved their point by releasing lore that couldn't work with an in-universe League of Legends. Oh, sorry, I'm like 0/2 here; they released two lore updates that conflict not at all with the League. (If anything, the League helps explain how Azir managed not to get beaten up for his lunch money by Noxus.)

At this point, I'm wasting words on them. It's been made abundantly clear that, barring an internal revolt of some kind, the Narrative team is committed to going Smash Bros. with League and stripping away not only the game's plot but our place in the universe. Okay. Cool. If so, I have only two things to say.

If Narrative is going to throw their hands up in the air and abdicate their responsibility to give League itself a plot, in favor of their new Adventures In Runeterra fantasy series, then they should at least back off and stop telling people on teams like yours to strip out (e.g.) voicework that mentions Summoners. If "we're still Summoners in-game", then let us stay Summoners in-game.
We in the lore community will just pick up where they left off. We're not a team of 30 professional authors with an unlimited budget and an office full of ultra-talented coworkers. We're just a handful of people chipping in our free time to make something. But through Factions and other such initiatives, I dare say we've done pretty well. If Narrative is abandoning us, we'll keep going ourselves.

SnakethrowerOct 1, 20144 votes

No offense - but if this this is true how is it that the last 100+ pages of feedback to the Cassiopeia rework have been uncommented and the valid critics have been completely ignored? The vast majority of players hate how her concept changed by reducing her kit to a single spell and giving her a passive which completely contradicts her former self?

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=4851396

CuixOct 1, 20145 votes

It definitely wasn't an intentional slight; he doesn't strike me as that sort of guy. However, we were lied to, once all was said and done. There was never any actual apology, just more statements along the lines of "Well, too late now, but you'll like it eventually!". That whole situation was handled terribly. It was a great learning opportunity, if nothing else... but that lack of communication and transparency just keeps coming up and causing issues (Karma, Sona, Cassi, lore retcons).

For some reason, Riot saw how much damage was caused by a lack of openness and decided it would be best to become even less open. Truly, deeply disappointing.

Edit: Also, this is the FIRST TIME that a Rioter has actually acknowledged the full extent of the misinformation. No other Rioter until now has been upfront with the whole "we promised one thing then did something else instead". It shouldn't have taken a year and a half, but thank you for being braver than others.

exec3Oct 1, 20144 votes

A simple question for you. Does current trundle fulfill the Ice Troll fantasy? The answer of course is a resounding no and that imo is why his changes were a complete and utter failure. Not only was old Trundle a better and more interesting character but new Trundle made no sense thematically because honestly what kind of Ice Troll steals stats? That's a kit designed for a plague troll, not an ice troll and it always shows. You're just lucky that W and E managed to fit in without any thematic issues.

Not to mention half the reasons for changing Trundle were very weak such as the old lore being a dead end (so tweak it so he has a new direction to head in without changing who he was) and that he wasn't super popular (his current play rate says volumes about unsuccessful the changes were to increasinging his playrate).

What needs to happen is that you need to split Trundle. Bring back old Trundle with lore (evolved ofc to fit into your new world) and gameplay intact and then take new Trundle, give him a new name and give him a proper kit that does the Ice Troll King theme justice. This game is plenty big enough for 2 very different troll champions and it'll do a lot for repairing the damage you guys caused with the Trundle and Karma relaunches.

Rew711Oct 1, 20143 votes

I'll tell you this. I would had never wanted to play Trundle the way he was. 1) He looked disgusting. 2) His backstory was sad, confusing, weird, and had little to do with LoL. 3) Although the abilities would had been better portrayed on his original, it still makes me uncomfortable to think to much into it.

In his new look, he looks powerful, cool, and has just as nice of a backstory. Only this one made him into a bad-guy.

Also, the guy is much more humorous. I feel like playing him now.

Sneak DogOct 1, 20144 votes

Not everyone has to like every champion, this is why niches exist. From your arguments, I do think you view him as a new character. How would you feel if Riot took your favorite champion and made him someone different? Because that is how I feel with Trundle. I have mained Trundle for a while, he always had one of my favorite lore pieces in League, but now he got replaced with a similar but different character.

Rew711Oct 1, 20142 votes

Yeah, I can understand. (I do see him as a new character to be honest.) But his older lore made me feel bad for the guy. The burden he had to carry.

BoswickSep 30, 20147 votes

Overall i vote no. It wasn't so much a "champion update" as it was completely deleting a character and replacing it with a new one that happens to have the same name. I'm not much of a trundle player but if i had been i would've been HUGELY upset.

That said, i definitely like his new visuals and minor updates to his kit.

DestínumSep 30, 20143 votes

If you actually think about it, new Trundle still does what the old Trundle would have in the same situation, he's just an ice-troll now. Take up any part of his new lore if you want, and I could say why old Trundle would have done the same.

Ark Angel HFBSep 30, 20141 votes

Old Trundle would have never made a power grab...

Old Turndle only kept the power out of spite at those who cast him out.

New trundle is more of the boring Power hungry jock... than the lame outcast that old Trundle was.

Sneak DogSep 30, 20143 votes

He would have done the same, but not been the same. I don't think old Trundle would've been that power-hungry. Not that big and bashy. Even now he is supposed to be the runt, yet he looks like a huge hulking troll. He would've become their leader and tried to save them, but while doing it probably realize how they are just looking up to him because he can beat people up now. The old lore had this key point where Trundle realized his tribe was a bunch of simple-minded (excuse the blunt wording) dicks. The new lore is just Trundle being a cunning brute, beating everything and if that doesn't work he tries to lie his way out, then he becomes leader and power-hungry. This is entirely unlike old Trundle. It might be whom old Trundle would've become etc., but it's not who he was. We aren't looking for a new champion here and trying to define him, we are looking at an old champion and trying to fit him as an ice troll.

Also, more importantly, just read the old lore+judgement, listen to the old Trundle VO, then listen to the new Trundle VO and tell me that's the same troll, because that's the Trundle most people will now hear.

Trundle is the reason I have no faith in the new lore. I feel like they just bluntly took a character from the lore and put a similar one in his place because he had no connections and they wanted a henchman for Lissandra. I don't feel like they put in the care they should put in every single one of their champions. Until Trundle is Trundle, I'm afraid I'll have no love for the lore department. If this means I have to abandon their lore to avoid having one of my favorite characters bluntly crushed and replaced with a shade of his old self again, so be it.

Apologies if I sound aggressive, I care about Trundle and have been upset about this quite some time and honestly Riot really quiet on this part as far as I know. I want to love the lore, I just can't right now. It's nothing personal and I definitely don't want to shy away from good discussion.

DestínumSep 30, 20143 votes

I completely understand the emotion. I was never very attached to old Trundle, so I'll probably never see it perfectly from your perspective, but I still think it's a very similar character. New Trundle is bigger and bashier, because his new race of trolls are generally bigger than his old race. Since trolls are very bashy in general, it's not hard to draw the conclusion of bigger = bashier.

As you pointed out, most people say new Trundle is way more power hungry. I actually don't think so. Both Trundles took upon them a burden because they thought it was the best for their people (and to earn their respect): Old Trundle took upon the curse, while new Trundle challenged their chieftain, got humiliated, then risked his life to get his weapon as another solution. In the end, both Trundles earn power over their tribe (although different types of power) and both decide to use it. Old Trundle gets to decide their fate, and decides to take revenge on them for all the years of being treated bad. New Trundle became their chieftain and decided to seize the moment and unite all the troll clans under himself. I'd bet both of them would have done the exact same thing in both situations.

As for his VO's, to me both Trundles just sound like vicious brutes with a bit of comedy to them. Both constantly talk about beating things and how much it's gonna hurt, but also things like "I'm troll judge, troll jury, and execu... troll!" and "I'm not heartless. I love beating." They even share some quotes, like the taunt "If you want me to hit you less, die sooner!" None of them show any kind of sympathetic or kinder side, but that's probably because they are still trolls on a battlefield.

Sneak DogSep 30, 20142 votes

Old Trundle took revenge because he realized what his tribe really was after his sacrifice. He expected them to admire him, instead they soon started to loathe him despite his sacrifice. It's this part that I liked, this naïve bullied runt realizes how his tribe really is after his grand sacrifice. This realisation is replaced by a hunger for power.

"The Freljord is mine!" His new VO oozes power-hungry all over while old Trundle never exposed any of this. All he wanted was their admiration.

The two trolls are similar, they would've done the same, but they aren't the same. Even if old Trundle could've become new Trundle, he wasn't new Trundle yet. Riven could've become Darius hadn't she endured Ionia, and yet they're different champions.

SecretLoreSep 30, 20142 votes

Tbh,new trundle is more or less what old trundle wanted to be. Old trundle wanted to be admired,well who gets more admiration than the unbeatable chieftain?

In the end I think they should have included a part where new trundle makes a similar experience as old trundle,something where new T sacrifices(or risks) himself,but won't get admiration for it.

TorrOct 1, 20144 votes

Trundle looks good to me

Remlap1223Oct 1, 20144 votes

The fanboys who cry bloody murder over Trundle's relaunch are the same type of people who can handle no change in their lives. Trundle's VU was objectively better, since Trundle lacked any real connection to the League or Valoran (kinda a moot point now considering the League is now non-canon), but despite becoming the more stereotypical troll (according to said fanboys) Trundle became a much more interesting character. I feel like old Trundle had the "Nami problem" of "ok why is he here?" New Trundle is a schemer, a power hungry despot that is a cowardly, yet ingenious. He truly fears Lissandra, but that doesn't get in the way of his hunger for power. It turned Trundle from Nami-esque character on an urgent quest, but has plenty of time to bash League Champions' faces in, into another Freljord usurper. The characters with the conspiracies they are directly involved in, or are affected by are the ones that are the most interesting.

Aatrox Ashe Azir Darius Diana Draven (trend breaker because DRAAAAVEN) Evelynn Graves JarvanIV Cassiopeia Katarina Lissandra Sejuani Sion Swain Talon Trundle Tryndamere TwistedFate Yasuo

XulsigaeOct 1, 20145 votes

It's okay to like the Trundle rework and such, but please don't insult those who don't. I am proud of being a 'fanboy.'

Remlap1223Oct 1, 20143 votes

You're not who I'm talking about. These people literally act if Trundle's story was turned from Shakespeare to Twilight. If you like old Trundle more than new, more power to you. My opinion of course is that new Trundle is a little more deeper, while still keeping his personality in check. The die hard Frost-Troll haters will nitpick literally everything (HE'S TOO BIG, HIS VOICE IS TOO DEEP, RITO WAH WAH WAH WHY'D YOU POOP ALL OVA MAH FAVORATE CHAMP!!!1!)

XulsigaeOct 1, 20144 votes

You're not who I'm talking about. These people literally act if Trundle's story was turned from Shakespeare to Twilight. If you like old Trundle more than new, more power to you. My opinion of course is that new Trundle is a little more deeper, while still keeping his personality in check. The die hard Frost-Troll haters will nitpick literally everything (HE'S TOO BIG, HIS VOICE IS TOO DEEP, RITO WAH WAH WAH WHY'D YOU POOP ALL OVA MAH FAVORATE CHAMP!!!1!)

Me thinks you tar with too large a brush.

OuterRavenOct 1, 20144 votes

As someone who mained Trundle in S3 and still play him every now and then in S4, my opinion of Trundle's rework was:

Gameplay: Perfect. You managed to clean up his bugs and his clunkiness and gave him some QoL buffs that he desperately needed. Through this, you managed to make him a viable pick without throwing him over the edge into OP territory. He still has clear strengths and weaknesses and it feels like you're playing a big troll smashing people's faces in with a club. 10/10
Art/Visuals: Great. He looks the way he should be, as a troll with a club that will smash anyone who gets close to him. Pre-VU he did not look like one of the best duelists in the game. Now he does. I still prefer the Cursed Troll look over the Troll King look, which is why I usually use the Traditional skin, but that's tied to the lore update so it's understandable. 8/10
Lore: Terrible. Not the new lore you replaced it with, but the WAY you changed Trundle's lore without asking for any feedback from his player-base. You pretty much came to us one day and said "Hey guys, we don't like the way Trundle is right now, so we deleted him. Here's the new Trundle. Deal with it". I know it's not what you wanted to say, but it's how it felt to us. And you got lucky that you made this mistake with Trundle, who has one of the smallest player-bases in LoL. If it had happened with Caitlyn or Lee Sin or Zed, you wouldn't have gotten one month of "Riot killed Trundle" threads. It would have been much, much worse. 0/10

Overall, it was a potentially good update that was completely ruined by your arrogance. If you had just talked to us about what you intended to do with Trundle's lore and asked our opinion on it, I can assure you that you wouldn't have gotten half the hate that you got. You betrayed the troll lovers' trust, and unlike love, trust isn't something that can be bought.

Chromatic EagleOct 1, 20143 votes

In my opinion, I don't understand why and how Riot can't combine parts of Trundle's new and old lore. Turn him into a sympathetic character who is forced or manipulated into selling out his people. He keeps his identity while being connected to Lissandra, and maybe other people who are disgusted by his actions.

ElkingtonOct 3, 20143 votes

Lore-wise he was knocked down a peg or two. His story and old-character was one of my favorites so I'm a little biased there. Mechanically, he's better than before due his Q now scaling with AS properly, as well as being able to animation-cancel his W. He did lose some things though. He can't use his ult on Baron/Dragon/Vilemaw anymore so his jungle got a bit weaker, then he lost his free 40% tenacity to help deal with mid-late game kiting. However, his sustain went up so he's a better laner than pre-rework. Also received 20% extra AS on his W so his late game dps is a bit higher as well. Lastly, his Pillar is much better than pre-rework since it interrupts channels now.

Overall, Trundle feels much smoother to play but his old lore was much better, as well as his pre-rework jungling.

ModCaptainMårvelousSep 30, 20142 votes

Well at the end of the day, Trundle's rate of play went up, so even if you dislike the visual direction they took with Trundle you have to admit that cleaning up his animations and model helped wth his playing.

StarlighteSep 30, 20143 votes

Well at the end of the day, Trundle's rate of play went up, so even if you dislike the visual direction they took with Trundle you have to admit that cleaning up his animations and model helped wth his playing.

Unfortunately that only serves to justify the QoL fixes that Trundle needed since almost day one. That doesn't begin to address the rest of the rework's direction. But sure, if you're going to look at it from a popularity standpoint Trundle's rework was a massive success, and Gragas's was a complete failure. It is a faulty point of comparison : /

ModCaptainMårvelousSep 30, 20142 votes

In that case, you could argue that while it definitely improved his QoL, it might also be how people enjoyed him. At the end of the day, while Urgot is neat, part of the problem is that not many people want to play a downright disgusting monster. Yes, there are always oddballs who love the gross slimeball, but when there are "cool" monsters (Kha'zix, Skarner) and "Scary" Monsters ( Cho'gath, Noc), flat-out ugly monsters are generally disliked.

StarlighteSep 30, 20143 votes

In that case, you could argue that while it definitely improved his QoL, it might also be how people enjoyed him. At the end of the day, while Urgot is neat, part of the problem is that not many people want to play a downright disgusting monster. Yes, there are always oddballs who love the gross slimeball, but when there are "cool" monsters (Kha'zix, Skarner) and "Scary" Monsters ( Cho'gath, Noc), flat-out ugly monsters are generally disliked.

This is where his success is like walking a tight-rope. We can base his success off of his gameplay and divorce all other aspects of trundle from it. Were the QoL changes enough to make Trundle enjoyable? Yes.

But with this comes the fact that without even a VU or a lore retcon, would he have been enjoyable? Well, if we are following this from a gameplay perspective in isolation than yes. Now let us factor in a retcon/lore rework. Not everyone plays a champion based on viability. They also don't play a champion based on lore most of the time either. So when people, who are emotionally invested in the lore of a character, disagree with drastic changes made to that character, that is a very legitimate argument. If the QoL changes were done at a separate time as the VU/retcon, the trundle VU/retcon would be an overwhelming failure. The ONLY thing keeping it afloat is by grouping the two of them together, and suggesting that his pick rate saw a dramatic increase due both to the VU and the QoL is misrepresentation of the facts. Trundle is still a Troll, albeit without being a leper. That small adjustment wasn't the causing factor of his pick/winrate skyrocketing. That increase in viability and pickability was from the QoL changes.

Again, if the QoL changes were released before/after the VU/retcon, the VU/retcon itself would be considered a massive failure. And that is how you have to look at this. You can't put it all in a bag, mix it around, and look at the end result then. You have to dissect the release and contemplate causality, because otherwise you are left with sentiments where players focused on viability and competitive play say it was a success, and those more interested in the personality and lore of a character say it was an abysmal failure.

sp441Sep 30, 20142 votes

while Urgot is neat, part of the problem is that not many people want to play a downright disgusting monster. I do. It's what made Urgot my favorite champion. The fact that he's a disgusting monster.

I hope to god that when Riot reworks him, they keep his monstrous appearance, instead of some random muscular bloke with gears coming off his tits. The fact that he looks like an abomination is what makes me love the Zombie Crab Man.

FatedTitanSep 30, 20144 votes

Not a good argument. Trundle's play went up because of QoL changes that players had been begging for FOR YEARS that Riot would not fix. He also received more play because of league of tanky tops being the meta at the beginning of the year, a meta that Trundle directly counters. If it had been old Trundle with the QoL fixes, he'd have been picked too.

OverpoweredSoapOct 1, 20141 votes

If anything we should be asking this more so about Karma than Trundle .

While both are better off with the updates, there still is the question of whether or not the updates were rather too massive.

turkeyBACONOct 1, 20143 votes

I considered making a sister thread for Karma since Sion's update reminded me of both karma and trundle's. But I decided against it since I don't really like Karma's update at all and I wanted to remain neutral to gain feedback. I thought 18 months or so would be enough time to gain some perspective but it seems only people who were passionate about the change before are responding. A thousand or so views and only a 1/10th of them voted. :/

Durmeth the VileOct 2, 20142 votes

I find new Trundle to be a standard ice troll, and his old story and look more interesting. He didn't fit entirely as typical to the League, and that is why I liked him. Cookie cutter troll, made anew to fit into an established area, is pretty lame.