Really..? -Varus Lore topic

ChromeClad·Dec 1, 2017·3 votes·666 views

So I’m usually pretty quiet “opinions on the internet” and all.

But after reading all of the boards blow up in negative reception regarding Varuses new lore really makes me feel disappointed.

Riot has recently changed many champion backstories to the point where they’re unrecognizable from what they were originally.

What I don’t understand is that, objectively, Varus had extremely cookie cutter lore. The few paragraphs written about him and his past were incredibly lacklustre. It felt like a summary on the back of a young adult novel.

Please explain to me, what sort of character development there’s was outside of Varus being consumed by vengeance because of the death of his family? We didn’t even know their names.

If this had of been a female that was on the verge of death- the love of his life- that he brought to the well in hopes of saving, I sincerely doubt there would be this kind of negative reception.

Refute this point of you want, but honestly think about it. Replace Kai with a woman, and outside of expansion, it’s very similar to his old lore.

In fact if it WAS a woman it would still be the same improvement on Varus’s lore. We got to know who they were, how they fell in love. Why this place needed defending and was “sacred”.

We learned more about the darkin, how they function and what it means. On top of that we got an excellent music video.

Val and Kai are probably the first example of humans actively resisting an immortal being in runeterra and not being over taken. Does that not intrigue anyone..? (I mean except Kayn IF he wins, which in terms of lore, I find unlikely) I for one believe Val’s mother to be some sort of descendent of ancient magic, and with that he had some kind of resistance.

What exactly was so special about Varus’s lore? I’ve read it a few times and don’t see why the old lore is now suddenly praised so highly. It’s about a man who wants vengeance.

His new lore is about two people who have had experiences together, about their difficulties in balancing duty vs love (similar to old Varus). It teaches us more about why the darkin are, and how they function. It’s about a love being so strong it was resist one of the most powerful beings in the world.

Objectively his new lore paints a better picture of who the character is, and adds depth to Runeterra as a whole.

What sounds more interesting to you. “Bow man makes terrible mistake, family dies and he becomes a vengeance monster”

Or: “Two lovers resisting the power of one of the most powerful beings in the world, each while dealing with their own personal issues. The Darkin has some mysterious backstory with a sister and is also seeking vengeance against mankind. He hopes to eradicate Val’s personality by destroying his humanity, preying of Valmars hatred of noxians. Meanwhile, Kai must convince his love that hatred and vengeance is not the way- so that the Darkin doesn’t consume them both and potentially re-unite with his brethren; spelling out certain doom for all mortals.

If you disagree, please explain to me why his old Lore was superior, and in doing so, pretend to swap Kai out with a woman. Let’s say her name is Kaiya.

I’m only saying this as it may be easier for some people to realize just how much better this lore is in comparison to that dry piece of literature.

Once again I am not usually vocal on the internet so please don’t flame me. Calmly explain why. (Also please read all of this)

31 Comments

redniwediSDec 1, 20177 votes

What I don’t understand is that, objectively, Varus had extremely cookie cutter lore. The few paragraphs written about him and his past were incredibly lacklustre. It felt like a summary on the back of a young adult novel.

And what of the new lore doesn't fit the exact same description? The main issue people have is that the old character of Varus wasn't updated, he was thrown out completely in favor of a new story. If old Varus was changed to have a husband instead of a wife most of the criticisms would be gone.

The new story is honestly bland, with a lot of holes that could be fixed by adding more to the story, but the same could be said for the old lore. Varus wasn't exactly tied to the Institute, so it's not like he needed a full rewrite in order to be made relevant, he just needed more depth. That's my personal complaint, no effort was made to give the original character more depth before replacing him with what we have now.

With all this said I hope you understand what the non-homophobic criticisms are about.

ChromeCladDec 1, 20172 votes

Again, explain to me how his old lore is superior? Many champions have had their old lores completely botched. Varus retains most of what made him Varus. Loss, revenge, archery skills, etc. You say the new story is bland and I’m not suggesting it’s great or anything but it’s way better than his old one.

See Galio. Completely changed to the point he is unrecognizable, yet didn’t receive this much criticism.

They needed to completely rewrite Varus (yet retain some of his qualities) because it was simply that boring.

The original character is barely any different from the one we have now. -Vengence -Loss -Hatred -Good/Evil moral grey area

But with added features -Character development -Darkin backstory -Creative origin

If they had of changed Varuses wife to a husband it would have been boring too.

I didn’t say anything about homophobia if anything I think it’s a “I can no longer relate to this champion” problem with some people who may feel that way.

redniwediSDec 2, 20172 votes

The issue isn't that one lore is superior in concept, I honestly think they are pretty equal and bland. The issue comes in when it feels like the old lore wasn't given a fair shake before the new and improved replacement came out. The old character wasn't even reused, he was simply removed in favor of something new.

ChromeCladDec 2, 20171 votes

To say this lore is equally as bland as his old one is just objectively wrong.

I mean think about it, a couple paragraphs vs, a comic with visuals, a music video, and a dev video explaining the subject, along with a written debrief.

Content wise the new lore is more, written better and more creative.

If the love of your life died in your arms would you do anything to save them? Even without knowing the consequences?

Someone you’ve fought countless battles, someone you’ve mended with and introduced to your family, reflected with them and had actual dialogue.

Someone you killed for-

This is all from a tiny comic strip.

Have you read the old writing? It’s defnitely something old riot produced. You’re not even addressing the fact that riot has done this with countless champions with little to no public outcry. I’m not playing the homophobia card, again as I have iterated. (Please read my whole posts) I believe it’s more of a “I can’t relate as much because this character is now partnered with a man” which is understandable.

New lore is better than his old lore. It really is that simple.

MysterQDec 2, 20174 votes

See, you are getting taken into the 'flashiness.' Yes this one looks nicer, but the story is not any better.

I think this one is much more underdeveloped. They opened many more avenues, but they didn't work on any of those possibilities. I literally know nothing about any of the 3 characters. The story was rushed and isn't something they should be proud of putting out (although the video was great).

ChromeCladDec 2, 20171 votes

Let’s break it down -Varus loses family in defense of ancient artifact. Overcome with grief, adopts the darkness and becomes obsessed with vengeance and hate.

Vs.

Valmar and Kai fell in love hunting great beasts together. For years they stood guard, protecting Ionia from otherworldly threats. On the hunt they met, and over time they fell in love. Valmar came from Pallas, a place surrounded by ancient magics.

They travelled everywhere together, sharing and making memories along the way. Seeing unspeakable monstrosities but also healing together from them. When the time came, Valmar worked up the courage to introduce his love to his mother.

A woman who is greatly respected in Pallas (Suggested Valmar and his mother are defended from the red haired priestess). Kai had his own feelings and insecurities about meeting Valmars family, would this unbalance him? He had fallen too deeply in love to escape, and he felt it was beginning to cloud his duty. ...

This is just the beginning of the story, please at least read the comic and description. The point is these are actual characters who have human reasons for doing things.

Not only that we now know that darkin can have a family of their own, and it’s implied they care for said family.

I’m at a point where I honestly can’t believe anyone who says they’ve read the comic and backstory, and says that this is just as bland as the old lore.

It’s all written down, more flushed out, there are names attached to faces, expressions and more importantly. Meaning behind actions.

Why is this so hard to accept? It’s a simple fact.

redniwediSDec 2, 20172 votes

You're comparing a lore that was recently fleshed out to a lore people wanted to be fleshed out. You either have to look at the simpler components or compare what is with what could have been, otherwise it's a flawed comparison.

ChromeCladDec 2, 20171 votes

Yes and the lore that is fleshed out is

Better. Is that so hard to say? This Lore is better than the old lore.

There are only two things to compare. What we have and what we had, not “what some people wanted”

MysterQDec 2, 20171 votes

You can simplify the original andlengthen the new one all you want in your summary.end of the day, i am left with more questions (in a bad way) with the new lore than i am with anything else.

ChromeCladDec 2, 20171 votes

Questions like? What was old Varus's reason for existing in league of legends (The game)?

How did he tie into the world? What was his family like? Why did the temple need protection? Who was he prior to what happened, as an idividual?

and most importantly. Why does it matter? Why did Varus Matter before?

I mean these are all basic, narrative, middle school questions that were completely unanswered in the old lore.

None of these were even touched on in the slightest. "Over simplifying" , Yes I cut away the filler words to get what his story was at the core. Also note, that I could continue writing about his new lore for a very long time because of the context and implications attached to what it is. Just because his new lore expands upon subjects and makes it more complex doesn't make it worse if fact is makes it better.

MysterQDec 2, 20171 votes

I have read the comic, some of the AMA, and the Music Video. Not the 6 minute video.

How did he tie in, his family, protection, prior to corruption? ALL things that could have been answered if they chose. It clearly mattered to some people who enjoyed his old character. And just removing him on a whim, feels bad.

What about the new lore is better though? Why did we need new lore instead of expanding his old? Can you answer that. New lore has left ME with many questions. I don't know where you filled in your gap, but I have questions about important plot points, and also questions about the future (but future questions are ok).

Tell me about Kai? hunter, sword, pretty high rank (wtf are these ranks), in love, nervous. injured, tries to be voice of reason.

That is all I know about Kai. Not very fleshed out.

Tell me about Valmar and this temple? hunter, bow, ??, has family, in love desperate, wants revenge honor sacrifices??, temple priest sees future??, magic water (now evil) renews, says Valmar is going to suffer (how?)

So much about the story has a lot of "foreshadowing" except none of it is ever explained. It is never tied back together. I was reading it trying to understand it, but I still couldn't.

Tell me about Varus? darkin, evil, revenge, maybe has family? i don't remember

People keep saying it was developed, but I don't see this development anywhere. It is just as (even more) vague than the original. Why are the two in love, where did they meet? Maybe not the most important question, but if it is a love story I would like to know. What is this temple, who is this priest, what are these cryptic messages she is talking about. Why was there suddenly an attack on the village.

Not every question can be answered, not every question needs to be answered. But the story left me confused, had no character detail. I would ignore except for people saying so much it is good.

ChromeCladDec 2, 20171 votes

See the difference is all of those questions are they adhere to characters that exist and have context with the world around them. Also some of your questions are touched upon in the comic...?

Vs. A story that doesn’t answer basic questions like who what when where why and how.

All I can infer from this is people being mad at change, even when the change is, again, objectively better that the old lore.

If you’re saying the new lore and is more vague than the old lore that this must be a troll post. The old lore didn’t even have the names of the characters it was talking about.

Old lore is fan fiction written by a 12 year old It provided 0 description It gave us 0 consequences

New lore is fan fiction written by a semi adult Gave us background Gave us context Gave us character development Told us why these things all matter and impact Runeterra.

It’s clear to see all of these people complaining don’t actually care about the lore at all.

I didn’t say it was good I said it was better. So many people are sad to see the old lore go, but for what reason ? Still I have no idea

His old lore was as terrible his new lore is better

MysterQDec 2, 20171 votes

Ok, his new lroe is "better" but you keep ignoring the fact, the could have improved his old lore and made it "better" without erasing it all.

We will continue to disagree though. Thank you for your response, even if it still doesn't give any solid reason for why it is better (all just generic reasons and saying the short lore is not as good as the $$$ lore).

redniwediSDec 2, 20171 votes

Yeah, lore that is fleshed out is pretty darn good. What I've been saying this entire time is some people, including myself, dislike the new lore because Riot didn't even try to flesh out the old lore first. They left it in a crappy state.

What's so hard to understand here? The new lore isn't better, it's more complete.

ChromeCladDec 2, 20171 votes

A story that is more complete IS better.

You're essentially saying the rough draft brainstorm is better than the revised good copy lol. And providing no evidence as to why, none of my questions have been answered.

redniwediSDec 2, 20172 votes

Are you missing the point or just not replying to it?

ChromeCladDec 2, 20171 votes

Your point is some people don’t like the new lore and wished Riot had just used the old lore and explanded upon it instead of re-working his old lore.

What they instead did was keep the core components of his old lore in personality but tweaked it so it fit into the dialogue of Runeterra.

They also added new characters and created a background for them. I have iterated this point several times- nobody has answered any of my questions.

What made his lore so good that reworking it requires this amount of outrage. What compelling story did Varus have before this?

None

redniwediSDec 2, 20172 votes

Well at least you half got it. I'm just going to have to leave it at that, I just don't have the energy to try and explain to every other person why some people liked the old story. There's plenty of other threads you can go read if you really don't get it.

ChromeCladDec 2, 20171 votes

I have read them and none of them explain why his old lore was even worth keeping, that’s why I made this thread.

It’s almost as if nobody actually cared about his old lore at all.

redniwediSDec 2, 20172 votes

Well they made perfect sense to me, so maybe the problem's on your end here.

ChromeCladDec 2, 20171 votes

The problem is people can’t admit that his new lore is better written, more fleshed out, more meaningful, and more creative.

It’s that simple lol have you watched the dev video or even read the comic?

I simply cannot comprehend why a few paragraphs with 0 character are now suddenly hailed as a lore that couldn’t be changed.

I’m pretty sure this isn’t a me problem if you want to go on believing a couple paragraphs without any character identification or storyline shouldn’t be changed go right ahead lol

Luckily the reality is different from what some wanted :)

redniwediSDec 2, 20172 votes

Don't insult me with this nonsense. If you're going to make a thread and talk to someone while ignoring what they say for the sake of your own narrative at least be up front about it, that way I don't have to waste my time trying to talk to you.

MysterQDec 2, 20172 votes

Character development? maybe in the future, but there certainly wasn't any in the story. Darkin backstory? not really much of any. and they could have added that to old Varus. creative origin? it is (would be) the same origin, except now with 3 instead of 2. if a 3rd makes it creative, then yes it is different.

How was this version any less boring? He was going to get married, people attacked, he fell into water.

Surely there are some homophobic inclinations, but I dont think those are the voices that are talking. Surely a lot of it is "relatability." Maybe this topic is getting more discussion due to the homosexual couple, but that is from both sides emphasizing it excessively. Some people really just want to discuss the change. Of course when a "hot" social issue gets thrown in, it will attract more attention the others.

We are controlling Varus, not Valmar. So there is that disconnect. Valmar wants revenge but why? Valmar had no loss. Kai is still with him. Yes Kai was hurt, but now they are both together in a weird form. Ok he lost his body. Ok, I can understand Valmar wanting revenge for his loved one getting hurt. Valid. Hatred, ok I guess.

Varus is entirely evil right now. Kai is entirely good. I guess that creates a moral grey.

I just think the new story is bland.

PlacentasDec 2, 20171 votes

"Valmar had no loss. Kai is still with him. Yes Kai was hurt, but now they are both together in a weird form. Ok he lost his body."

You're making that sound so casual man. You really need to put yourself into Val's shoes. Kai did die. The love of your life, your other half. I've had the misfortune to see quite a few people lose their spouses to early death and it's horrible. "Hatred I guess" - no man, it's not "hatred I guess" kind of situation when you lose someone who you view as your other half, a literal part of you.

Yes, they are "together" now, but what does that truly entail? Neither is physically there, they're trapped in a demon. It's unsure how "together" that actually makes them and it's certainly not the same as actually being together. The loss is in their future together in the real world, being a family, living their lives normally, growing old and dying together. Hell, I'm sure they could have had raised a kid together considering mortality rates and births and the possibility of adoption.

Now they are just trapped in a hell, forced to witness and be a part of slaughter that they helped cause.

Val also must feel guilty - it was his fault they're in this situation. Kai even told him to just run before dying. But the death of his love one made him lose his senses and he did what he did.

You view it as bland but youre also dismissing a lot of emotion from the story. You dismiss it with your phrases like "Ok I guess".

MysterQDec 2, 20171 votes

I apologize if I made it sound too casual. But look at other people's posts as well. "Varus loses family in defense of ancient artifact. Overcome with grief, adopts the darkness and becomes obsessed with vengeance and hate." ChromeClad summary of old Varus. Does that not sound too casual as well? You are right there will be biases from my side, but also the side supporting the new story.

But Kai did not die, as far as I know. He was in the process. And in fact by the end, you see Kai is still alive (fully) in this mind form. So it isn't a loss. And this make it strange, yes he wants to pay back the people who hurt his loved one, but his loved one is still fine now... If anything he should be trying to fight this monster stealing his body. It is just a weird scenario that they glossed over imo.

I have seen other's lose loved ones. I have seen them cry in front of people they would never want to. I didn't see any of that from Valmar.

I agree with this paragraph. They are trapped... except NONE of that is focused on in the story. It is Valmar KILL KILL Varus KILL KILL Kai stop stop. That is one of my problems, it is there to build on but it hasnt been touched yet. So I cannot say it is a good story when plot points get ignored.

Val MUST feel guilty.... but did he express any guilt? Did it ever touch that subject. The musci video was great, but it showed more fear the first time I saw it. Nothing else. And the comic didn't show any emotion.

That is just how read it. Also how some people read it as good.

PlacentasDec 2, 20172 votes

"I have seen other's lose loved ones. I have seen them cry in front of people they would never want to. I didn't see any of that from Valmar. "

Everyone, everyone acts differently to death. It can take time to process, it can take time to feel. When my father passed away my mother was "fine" until the funeral, at the funeral she literally tried to crawl into the grave she was so heart broken.

Once again you go back to claiming Kai and Val are fine. Did you completely "gloss over" what I wrote? They're not fine,they're trapped in what appears to be an eternal hell inside a demon only to witness this demon slaughter innocent people due to their actions. You would be fine in that situation?? Because you must be made of absolute steel if that's the case.

Honestly though, it seems to me like you're the kind of person who needs things written very blatantly down for them. That you don't want to or just don't extrapolate information and emotion from the text. And this isn't me dissing you or anything, it just seems to be the writing style you would prefer.

Perhaps you lack empathy? I dunno. I can just tell you and I are very different people and the best solution is to simply agree to disagree.

MysterQDec 2, 20171 votes

Thank you for your post. We will just yes disagree, but that is ok.

To me, and I have said this in other threads, I can't feel bad for them. Maybe it is because I am heterosexual, idk. They are both alive, I didn't get the sense of them being hurt from the killing (mostly just wanted him to not lose himself, although someone said he cared about the deaths I didn't catch it when I read it).

But again, thank you for the reasonable reply.

MysterQDec 1, 20177 votes

Am I Varus or Valmar? Legitimate question. I mean, in my own head cannon I can play as Valmar I guess. But the character is Varus, the Darkin who just wants to kill for revenge. I guess you can argue that isn't any different from the old Varus, but I don't know anything about the new Varus (open door).

The old story, Varus loses something and makes a decision. No doubt, you can call it cliche. But it had a purpose. The new story, Valmar almost loses something, doesn't give up anything, hopes for a good outcome (not making a decision). Ultimately he may or may not lose his body/soul?

No doubt, there are some people who may dislike it because there are gay characters. But honestly, most people are complaining that the character was erased. If anything giving the gay couple a kid and retaining their family life would be more diverse approach than this. Yes this story has room for more development. But I think many people are saying the old story also had room for development.

The problem I have. People are praising the story because it looks nice, and because it has a gay couple. Having a gay couple does not make everything automatically better. Do you actually know anything about Valmar or Kai other than they are a couple? They had a list of activities but I still don't know them.

And your summary synopsis is obviously unfairly written. 1 sentence vs a paragraph.

HammermancerDec 1, 20173 votes

the old lore was kinda simple and archetypal, the new lore is also archetypal but with more gay and less actual motivation

MysterQDec 2, 20172 votes

:( why do people downvote this.

ChromeCladDec 2, 20171 votes

I honestly don’t know thank you for agreeing with me.

Objectively this lore is better than his old lore. It’s that simple and if you can’t accept that then you’re wrong. His old lore was a couple paragraphs. This has a storied comic, a music video, and a dev explanation video. It also finally connects it to the darkin ties.