@IronStylus, What do you want the VU team to do once all the big-ish updates are done?

Solideus··6 votes·11,090 views

Just a few years from now, when you've worked through all the champions needing anything between Sion - and Alistar -level work, what would you want the VU team to be doing? What do you think is likely to happen to you guys once the big projects are done? Will the team be scaled down and keep doing small projects or will you expand and do other kinds of things? Would you ever consider to start doing "character progression"-relaunches, for example? Or will you just start all over again?

//Best regards, a Fan.

53 Comments

RiotIronStylus17 votes

I'll walk off into the the road, thumb out, like Bill Bixby from the Incredible Hulk TV show.

..that too old of of a reference? Shit..

But seriously, good question. I think this team has an interesting aspect of it. It basically has (generally speaking) a point of "mission accomplished". There will most likely be a single champion that's the last out the door. I have a board next to my desk that the team has assembled with every champion's portrait. They fall loosely into 'what we did last year', 'what we're gunna do this year, mos' def', 'what we would like to do this year' and 'prime targets of opportunity'. Below that is the backlog, and below that is the safe zone. I don't know the exact numbers, but it's interesting to see, very slowly, each of the champions rise to the top of that board. Won't it be cool when we have more VU's under our belt than we have champions left to do? I'm pretty stoked that that's even a possibility. Sure, maybe we'll get to a point where say Model + Texture updates are the bare minimum to qualify as acceptable content. I guess I could see that as a benchmark.

We face a lot of challenges from different directions when approaching a VU. We might have an idea for a character model change, but the rig/animations stand in the way of us executing in a timely manner. Or maybe we have a really big thematic/story question mark above one of the champions. It can be a challenge executing if we have to do a tear-down. That really leans on the ideation and pre-production process, as well as crosses paths with anyone working on greater questions of story and IP.

Many of these factors are why we try to plan and scope accordingly. Big, medium and small projects all at once and staggered when possible. The team has also had it's mission statement and purpose change and grow. We used to be about "getting the ugly out of the game", but now we focus quite holistically on the health of a champion as a complete package. Balance and gameplay do their thing, but we handle major overhauls especially if they have art/narrative dependencies. All of this is exciting when we take on a project, but it can be a lot to manage.

Some characters we do push off because we haven't answered some real hard questions about them at a core level. For example, even Leona. Right now she's fine in terms of fidelity, but does she exemplify her aspect of Targon? Well, I'll go ahead and say no. We created her before we had even a slight understanding about what Targon is, what it would become, and what it could later be. She's far down on that list because her fidelity is fine, and we also haven't dug into Targon to ratify it as something we can start developing form language or motifs from. I think we're closest with someone like Diana. She probably generally fits into what we might use as a springboard for greater Targon, but not Leona, to say the least of Pantheon.

As those narrative components solidify we might pull from the lower buckets and bring them up. If we said, "BOOM! THIS IS TARGON!" tomorrow, maybe we'd throw her into pre-production. Similar for anyone who really exemplifies the faction/region to which they belong. Many of these characters which are older now have modern compatriots we can compare against and dirive new designs from such as Caitlyn (Vi, Jayce), Irelia (Yasuo, Karma) etc. I think that's where we get into "character progressions" as you've said.

I'll also get into some personal feelings here as well.. this is me speaking very close to my heart and just for a goal that relates back to something I felt I left unfinished a while ago. This isn't a reflection on any team I've worked with, or anything approaching criticism, this is solely a feeling I have as an individual looking at a lofty goal or benchmark.

Quinn and Valor weren't the easiest of projects. There was a fair amount of misalignment throughout the process and I'm definitely to blame for my chunk of it. It was rough in each part of the pipeline. Ideation, pre-production, production, release, etc. This is no one's "fault", this is just the thing about iterative fast-paced game development. Sometimes stuff just happens. No one is at fault. This is just observation from 20/20 hindsight.

That said, Quinn and Valor were the last champions I worked on with the Champion team. That's a little bittersweet. After that "Team Diana", who worked on Q&V, sort of went our separate ways to different corners of our disciplines and onto other teams in some cases. I think we all learned a lot from that experience. I think now we look back on it and say we wish we could have executed differently. Not "better", but differently.

Quinn and Valor to me (lol.. Valor, to me!) represent something I've left unfinished. Something that I want to approach with fresh eyes. Something that I now have more clarity on and I think have a more rounded understanding of. They're really near the bottom of the list. There are much worse offenders in terms of theme, art and design. She's far down the list. However, as that list churns, she's going to inch up. I sort of see it as this weird destiny thing that it's possible that the last thing I work on for ChampUP is Quinn and Valor, setting right the things I did wrong, giving them the respect they deserve.

I was just listening to the new Music of League of Legends and there's an extended version of Quinn and Valor's theme. I got shivers. It's so good. It's touching, then rising, then triumphant then serene. I want to listen to that over and over and go back and ideate with that music surrounding me. I want to find the oomph. I want them to get a second chance.

One funny thing, the site lolskinviewer.com hasn't been updated since Quinn and Valor were released. I often look at that site for quick reference for the old champion models. So, any time I launch the site I see Quinn there. It's so funny that she's where those updates stop. To me, every time I see it, I think to myself, "You and me have unfinished busy, young lady".

Anywhoozle, that's a lot of romanticizing. But hey, even dreamy goals are goals.

Whichever way we do it, it'll take a while. We're not half-way through yet. Lot's of work to be done.

You're not rid of me yet :)

ModWulf Helhammer1 votes

Quinn (model/texture. Don't you dare change my Falconer!) changes in the pipeline? I love you!!!!

RiotIronStylus6 votes

No, that's the thing, no changes are in the pipeline. She's way down in the backlog or safe zone for now.

Ptarlorr1 votes

Any chance she'll get a new splash art at least? To fix Valor's wings at least.

Rengar got a new one.

Synx1 votes

750/750 that was beautiful :')

ChimeiTekinaNasu1 votes

{quoted}

I'll walk off into the the road, thumb out, like Bill Bixby from the Incredible Hulk TV show.

..that too old of of a reference? Shit..

Anywhoozle, that's a lot of romanticizing. But hey, even dreamy goals are goals.

Whichever way we do it, it'll take a while. We're not half-way through yet. Lot's of work to be done.

You're not rid of me yet :)

Darn. I thought we were almost rid of you. =P Nice reference though.

So a question for you. Say you get to the very last champion to update to be in line with everyone else. Would the very first champion you updated be needing an update again?? Cause how technology is always advancing every year, and in a few years, it changes by a lot. Like how the new map is now that there is better tech for it than there was when it was first made. So do you think technology will advance enough that the champions you first updated would be needing updated again when you finish it all?? Like a never ending cycle of updating champions with the never ending advancing technology. Like maybe another 5 years or so, Kayle would need another VU after all the technology advances. =P As from your champion update list, she was updated in 2011. So maybe she'll need another by 2020 or something.

So what do you think about that??

RiotIronStylus3 votes

Honestly I don't see us going back in a lot of cases. There's only a certain amount of change this engine is capable and we're pushing it. For this platform, the advancing of technology probably doesn't factor in too much in our case, but that's just a guess. I couldn't see us realistically going back in to fix, say, Annie, Twitch or Yi. This is why we do a lot of model update VU's. Changes are we're not going to be able to really do a Sion on some characters. But that's ok. If we were ALWAYS going to do Sion level VGU's then we'd never release anything.

ChimeiTekinaNasu1 votes

{quoted}

Honestly I don't see us going back in a lot of cases. There's only a certain amount of change this engine is capable and we're pushing it. For this platform, the advancing of technology probably doesn't factor in too much in our case, but that's just a guess. I couldn't see us realistically going back in to fix, say, Annie, Twitch or Yi.

Ah, okay. Well that's very interesting. I'm curious about the engine now.

If we were ALWAYS going to do Sion level VGU's then we'd never release anything.

^This made me laugh. lol ooow, headache, hurts to laugh

Solideus1 votes

To clarify, would the team still consider revisiting, in the far future, characters that have gotten AlistarSinged Maokai-level updates for adding stuff like animations and new voiceovers, which they didn't get the first time around?

ULTRAF0RCE1 votes

After you guys are done with VU's will you guys possibly update skins, like how some of the 975, 1350 and legendary skins are not fitting with the current rules for what counts as that skin tier?

Garentheon1 votes

Great reference! I love the song that plays. So sad

Chromatic Eagle2 votes

I know you can't spoil anything, but besides Targon, what other regions do you think could be more defined? Zaun for example, or maybe Demacia? How do you feel about LeBlanc and Vladimir as Noxian cultists? Do their skins reflect that?

RiotIronStylus4 votes

I think Demacia and Noxus are probably the most ripe at the moment. Honestly though a lot of in good shape to start building out for new content, but that's not my department.

Cuix2 votes

Demacia seems to have a general look that's pretty well established, but BOY it could use some lore lovin'. Kinda the opposite with Noxus, I think, which still resides in "spooky bad city" territory.

ULTRAF0RCE2 votes

Main thing for Demacia probably is trying to find a way to fix the fact that they are seen as "the good guys"

Chromatic Eagle1 votes

It's not even that. What makes them different than the other good guys in lore?

ULTRAF0RCE1 votes

Yeah, but they are trying to make Noxus not considered evil and Demacia not the main good guys, but yeah Demacia currently is kind of one dimensional and has no differences other than being more boring than piltover or Ionia which are also the good guys most of the time in lore

Chromatic Eagle1 votes

Well Demacia hasn't been the main good group in a while. If anything they've been ignored. Noxian being evil might be exaggerated. All they have to do is explore Katarina's family more.

ULTRAF0RCE1 votes

That would be awesome since my 2 favourite champs are Kata and Lux, Annie in third

Chromatic Eagle1 votes

To be honest, I don't know about Demacia. Noxus has a general red and black theme along with roman influences. Demacia is gold and silver but I have a hard time imagining what it's city and people are like.

Solideus1 votes

Renaissance-esque architecture, nationalistic (maybe a little fascist) ideology, powerful elite, powerful and somewhat repressive military-state. In many ways Noxus and Demacia are very similar, in some total opposites.

THe aesthetics and feel are pretty solid. Demacia would need some new media to better present it, though.

Chromatic Eagle1 votes

I think that's my issue. It's hard to present Demacia. I look at Noxus and think dark kingdom. I look at Piltover and think steampunk/futuristic city. Zaun is probably Detroit. What's Demacia supposed to look like to set itself apart?

Solideus1 votes

Mainly I'd say it would mainly be the "shining kingdom" kind of deal, obvious stuff. The "lower class" could use some exploration.

Chromatic Eagle1 votes

Is Janna still from Zaun? Why does she wear that outfit? Jinx's lore says that her outfit is similar to what Zaun teens wear. Everyone else in Zaun is some sort of non-human creature besides Singed, so I'm not sure where's Janna's connection to Zaun supposed to come from.

EnderForHegemon2 votes

{quoted}

I was just listening to the new Music of League of Legends and there's an extended version of Quinn and Valor's theme. I got shivers. It's so good. It's touching, then rising, then triumphant then serene. I want to listen to that over and over and go back and ideate with that music surrounding me. I want to find the oomph. I want them to get a second chance.

One funny thing, the site lolskinviewer.com hasn't been updated since Quinn and Valor were released. I often look at that site for quick reference for the old champion models. So, any time I launch the site I see Quinn there. It's so funny that she's where those updates stop. To me, every time I see it, I think to myself, "You and me have unfinished busy, young lady".

Anywhoozle, that's a lot of romanticizing. But hey, even dreamy goals are goals.

Whichever way we do it, it'll take a while. We're not half-way through yet. Lot's of work to be done.

You're not rid of me yet :)

Has anyone told you lately what a hopeless romantic you are? =) It's adorable

Solideus1 votes

Always thought-provoking to read your text-walls. Artists for commercial products sometimes get an unfairly bad rep, so a reminder of the heart many of us have in it is nice to see expressed!

I think getting back to Quinn would be a beautiful, symbolic thing. Also, next to the quality of the content I'm always eager to see the aesthetics you've developed so the musings of Targon gets me excited for future content!

Flemman1 votes

just improve the nocture "tail" to be not clunky when he turn and I will be happy :D

Chromatic Eagle1 votes

What's wrong with Quinn again?

Ptarlorr1 votes

Not much.

Linna Excel1 votes

Realistically if you ever get close to finishing your list, there's going to be a big change of art style and you are back at square one.

Some characters we do push off because we haven't answered some real hard questions about them at a core level. For example, even Leona. Right now she's fine in terms of fidelity, but does she exemplify her aspect of Targon? Well, I'll go ahead and say no. We created her before we had even a slight understanding about what Targon is, what it would become, and what it could later be. She's far down on that list because her fidelity is fine, and we also haven't dug into Targon to ratify it as something we can start developing form language or motifs from.

Leona works. I don't really care about Targon if that means screwing up how she looks. Leona is fine, don't change a bloody thing about her. Also just because people come from one place doesn't mean that place as a uniform style. Leona is the sun champion or whatever so she needs to look both unique and above the common riffraff Diana that's running around.

darkdill1 votes

Only thing Leona needs changed for her in-game model is to wear an actual breastplate rather than an armored bra.

Basically, change her armor to look a tad more like what she was wearing in A New Dawn. It's not a major change, but it's still sensible so that her back doesn't look totally exposed.

Linna Excel1 votes

Yes that is one possibility. However her tankiness has been nerfed so much, her backside probably needs to be exposed at this point. All I know is that if they change anything, she better get a traditional skin. I'm being completely serious about that. She's one of the few champs whose base skin is probably the best skin for the champ. She also got a TU recently so that's not an issue either.

Really riot, leave Leona alone.

Chromatic Eagle1 votes

If Diana resembles what you want from Targon, do you mind telling us what you like about her? Is it her moon themes, or is there a specific culture that influenced you?

RiotIronStylus8 votes

It's got something to do with the "celestial". Personally, and this is PERSONALLY speaking, I view Targon as a potential place that links the earth to the sky. This sort of thing is common in mythology. I'm not saying OH TARGON IS MT. EVEREST. More like.. the REGION of Targon is huge and at some point has a highest point. But it's natural for those who live close to the sky hold it in regard.

So, Diana has a lot more motifs going on. Honestly, take out the texture and internal detail of her armor and it's not really fantasy armor. It's sci-fi shapes. Sci-fi directly notches into the celestial. I think building upon those shapes and motifs would be a good place to start. This would probably mean thinks looking pretty crazy in some cases, it's introducing the power of the heavens to those from earth who come in contact with it, or those who are trying to represent it in the limited way human can. I see Diana's outfit as a possible point of reference.

Cuix1 votes

Any chance we could see some of the sketches being done for Leona as you (and whoever else) explore ways to retain her identity while bringing her more in line with Diana and Targon? Maybe not right now, of course, but at some points during the design/ideation process? I'm super curious as to how her rigidity and geometry would look when given a bit more celestial flair.

Zeta1 votes

{quoted}

It's got something to do with the "celestial". Personally, and this is PERSONALLY speaking, I view Targon as a potential place that links the earth to the sky. This sort of thing is common in mythology. I'm not saying OH TARGON IS MT. EVEREST. More like.. the REGION of Targon is huge and at some point has a highest point. But it's natural for those who live close to the sky hold it in regard.

So, Diana has a lot more motifs going on. Honestly, take out the texture and internal detail of her armor and it's not really fantasy armor. It's sci-fi shapes. Sci-fi directly notches into the celestial. I think building upon those shapes and motifs would be a good place to start. This would probably mean thinks looking pretty crazy in some cases, it's introducing the power of the heavens to those from earth who come in contact with it, or those who are trying to represent it in the limited way human can. I see Diana's outfit as a possible point of reference.

How do you feel about all of the fears/concerns about Kayle and Morgana being reworked to be linked to Targon? Thematically, especially given your description of the region, it fits - but I fear doing so would just re-tread the same ground both visually and in terms of story as Leona and Diana. Kayle and Morgana fit with this version of Targon, but I'd hate for them to become Leona and Diana with wings.

Solideus2 votes

That has never been mentioned by a red, has it? They are leaning more towards Demacia and Noxus respectivelly, given their factions on the website. Angels aren't really greco-roman like Targon, but rather more Abrahamic. Demacia, Noxus and possibly something with the Darkin are more fitting groups to house them.

Jeddy0171 votes

Huh,that celestial theme could work when you think about Pantheon's ult.

Chromatic Eagle1 votes

I think I know what you mean by celestial, but now all I'm thinking about is Soraka. How do you feel about a sci-fi in League? I see you keep making comments about moving away from it, but what about things like Zaun and Hextech? Then you have all of these mecha skins.

Wolfeur1 votes

{quoted}

It's got something to do with the "celestial". Personally, and this is PERSONALLY speaking, I view Targon as a potential place that links the earth to the sky. This sort of thing is common in mythology. I'm not saying OH TARGON IS MT. EVEREST. More like.. the REGION of Targon is huge and at some point has a highest point. But it's natural for those who live close to the sky hold it in regard.

You mean some kind of Olympian civilization? Because that could be a good junction between the "celestial" and pantheon's greek-ish look.

Zana Lyrander1 votes

"There will most likely be a single champion that's the last out the door." I'm guessing it's probably going to be Taric Taric T-T Sorry, that was way too bitter of me. Thanks for the communication as always Stylus, it does help a lot for those of us curious about when to expect things and whether we should remain hopeful or if we should not hold our breath for the time being. Plus it's always nice getting a peek into how you guys are thinking. Good luck, and keep up the great work.

RiotIronStylus6 votes

Nah, he's in pre-production now. I was working on him today actually.

Darlantan122 votes

Can you say anything about Chogath VU?

Vixanys1 votes

Truly Outrageous. :3

Sharjo3 votes

Personally I think eventually they'll go back and re-do some of the older VUs to bring them to the current standard. I'm talking pre-2013 VUs here, like Ashe, Katarina and Gangplank.

Kingsgrave1 votes

I imagine its going to take them at least 4-5 years to finish VU'ing literally everything in the game so I don't know if they are going to plan what to do after that's done anytime soon

Solideus1 votes

If they keep ramping up like they have I could see them being done in three, but probably not sooner than that. Yeah, the company probably hasn't made any decisions, I'm just curious about IronStylus' thoughts on the matter.

Garentheon2 votes

At the pace theyre going i say 4-5 years. And then after that theyd go back and do the out dated VUs and MTUs, which would be plenty by that time

5512021 votes

i would like to see Warwick relaunch with a visual update Sion -lvl. Thats all i want for 2015. I know they will not forgot my biggest wish, because i believe in you, Riot :)

VforVampire1 votes

I would personally really like a Revamp of Vladimir both story wise and gameplay. Sorry i know that he was the first mobile Zhonya but his kit isn't really for the current Noxus champion line up. Also since the Sion relaunch i find it a little convenient to have a Hemomancer for the ritual. I can understand that they had years to prepare but still.

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