Hi Riot, I'd like to have an honest, earnest, and open conversation about gay characters.

Seraphic Chicken·May 20, 2018·83 votes·36,301 views

Hey! I saw the post about the rainbow poro icon and I wanted to thank you and say how much I(and i'm sure many others) appreciate the gesture. As a lesbian it means a lot to see a game developer that's been part of my life for 8 years now doing things like this!

...In the end, though, the rainbow poro icon is just a small gesture. It's not an empty gesture by any means, and I'm not here to accuse you of homophobia or anything like that. It's pretty clear that Riot tries hard to be an inclusive company. You just donated a whole bunch of money to lgbt charities. I'm dating a Rioter so I know how great you guys are about having a safe and inclusive workplace. Your values come through loud and clear.

My question to you is: how is this philosophy reflected in the work that you produce? So far we have Varus, who is two half-dead boyfriends trapped in a body controlled by a demon, and some extremely, extremely minor characters in stories that don’t have any impact on the game itself. Better than nothing, I guess? But is “better than nothing” the best we can do?

There’s a few other scraps here and there, like Star Guardian Jinx’s obvious jealousy about Lux giving Ezreal any attention in the SG story. There’s also some stuff about Leona and Diana, like the tweet when gay marriage was finally legalized in the United States, and the pool party post with Leona swooning over a woman. Are they just going to be bread crumbs, none of which are presumably “canon”, with no satisfying payoff? There’s an opportunity here, especially with the way Leona and Diana’s story was never resolved after the Mt. Targon update, and left hanging with Leona urgently needing to tell Diana some big discovery.

I want to know what your plans for the future are when it comes to gay characters. I’m not asking you to tell me the details of what you’re working on, if anything. I simply want to know that you have plans beyond the occasional joke or plausibly-deniable fragment. I want to be able to see the values that you clearly believe in reflected in the game you make. I want to believe that you are capable of writing gay characters without killing them or making them jokes or background characters, characters whose stories pay off in some way. I don’t feel like this is out of reach for you, and if it is, I would like to understand why. What place do gay characters have in the story of League? Do you feel like you need a "special reason" to make a character gay? Writing romance in general doesn't seem to be a problem, with Valmar and Kai, or Xayah and Rakan, or that Darius comic where he's drawn fully nude and having sex with a woman. I would love to know more about the process that goes into creating a character’s story, and how that would look when writing a gay character.

Thank you for taking the time to read this! This is something that’s been on my mind for a long time now, and I saw this as a good opportunity to ask about it and maybe get a response.

If you're in this thread to complain about how you're totally not a homophobe but you don't want to see gay characters or whatever please find something better to do with your time. Obviously Varus didn't stop you from playing League. There's plenty of space for a discussion like this as well.

357 Comments

ArakadiaMay 20, 201829 votes

Some people argue that there needs to be a reason for a character to be gay. That it has to have a purpose (like Varus's romance).

The thing is, in real life, lgbt characters don't have to justify themself or their existence. There is no justification or reasoning for why Pyke is black, and it doesn't interfere with his character so its fine. Similarly, there doesn't need to be a reason for a character to be gay.

And including lgbt representation in a game to look good and inclusive isn't a bad thing. Thats would be like saying that donating to charities to look good and compassionate is a bad thing. Even if the motivation wasn't true, its st ill a positive effort.

So I am all for more diversity. Statistically, there should be multiple lgbt characters in League.

Seraphic ChickenMay 20, 201815 votes

Yes! I definitely agree. I don't feel like a character's sexuality has to be some major part of their character arc(although, of course, it CAN be) or anything like that.

I think that, if you're striving for diversity in your characters, rather than asking if there's any reason for a character to be non-white, or a woman, or gay, it makes more sense to ask if there's any reason for them to NOT be black, or gay, or a woman, or whatever. That's a process that I feel like leads to more natural-feeling characters overall.

Chembaron YamadaMay 20, 201811 votes

The thing isn't about having a reason to be gay. But a reason to actually confirm the sexuality of a champion.

We actually don't know the sexuality of most champions in league of legends, since confirmation like Rakan and Xayah or Darius are usually pretty rare. Because as long as it is not relevant to the story, why show the sexuality of a character?

Rakan and Xayah have the couple shtick, so it is obviously needed to be shown. Darius was a story about a soldier giving up his own child for his country, so sexuality was a side effect here.

Many people already have homosexual couples as their headcanon, me included (Caitlyn x Vi). They might be, but we simply don't know because it wasn't needed to be shown until now.

I would still enjoy to get Piltover's Finest confirmed, tho.

FancyCrebMay 22, 20186 votes

We live in a society that has only very recently validated the existence of gay people. It hasn't even been three years since the US legalized same-sex marriage on a federal level. Whether or not you or I do, people will assume that, in the absence of any hints or confirmation, that a person (or character) is straight. This is called heterosexism. (Though heterosexism is way more than just this.)

Plenty of characters arbitrarily showcase sexuality even if their actual sexuality isn't confirmed. Or is there a reason in the lore for Zyra to be wearing the equivalent of a leaf-based bikini?

Plus, the game already has a contextually appropriate method to showcase a character's personality. We have all these special interactions between characters, when they attack each other, kill each other, taunt, joke, buy items, etc.

Stars ShaperMay 20, 201838 votes

No, you are misinterpreting ppl stance that, in general, there is no need to expose a character sexuality at all if it's not part of the storytelling.

ArakadiaMay 20, 201810 votes

Its not like you need to tell us Lissandra is lesbian Sure, that isn't pertinent to the story.

At the same time it really can't hurt the story as long as you implement it the right way (not like a character sheet). The one gay character in the Zaun region story had their sexuality told in a completely fine way.

Furthermore, there are a ton of champions who have their attraction the opposite sex confirmed as cannon. And thats totally okay.

Stars ShaperMay 20, 20187 votes

Exactly because they made it in a natural way and mostly through inuendos and such because no1 goes in public shouting: "I LIKE !" just because so every1 knows about it and can better relate with them.

I mean, there are a lot of shades in how to portray those things and Riot is doing a decent job in it imo. I just would like more about champions meeting and doing something together now that we are approaching the second or third chapter of their stories.

IcyPepperMay 20, 20188 votes

and such because no1 goes in public shouting: "I LIKE <insert genitals>!"

You got a point there, 'cause

https://i.giphy.com/media/26DNeaHGMJdS66OkM/giphy.gif

Stars ShaperMay 21, 20184 votes

Change the .webp with .gif this fixes it.

IcyPepperMay 21, 20184 votes

You are amazing. Thank you.

Stars ShaperMay 21, 20186 votes

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/original/000/010/809/happy-oh-stop-it-you.png

FloRaider42May 20, 20186 votes

{quoted}

Some people argue that there needs to be a reason for a character to be gay.

It does make some sense if you look at it while considering the conservation of detail. Basically every extra information about a character should serve a purpose as otherwise it wastes time to code/write.

So if you bother talking about the sexuality of a champion (most of them don't have theirs confirmed for this reason) you should have a reason for doing so.

There is no justification or reasoning for why Pyke is black

Has Pykes devlog been revealed already? I think I missed it...

BTW "in real life" is a rather weightless argument when you talk about a fictional world

ArakadiaMay 20, 20189 votes

It does make some sense if you look at it while considering the conservation of detail. Basically every extra information about a character should serve a purpose as otherwise it wastes time to code/write.

Is that why Riot went out of their way to confirm 20+ champions as having heterosexual attractions? Is that why Riot goes out of their way to write quotes about insignificant details?

Representation for lgbt people is not a burden. Don't treat it like one.

Has Pykes devlog been revealed already? I think I missed it... BTW "in real life" is a rather weightless argument when you talk about a fictional world

You don't need a devblog to see that Pyke is black. And there really can't be a justification for why Pyke is black. It's possible that he is black, just like its possible Sion was homosexual, but there is no reason for why they made him black besides representation.

Its a fictional world. That doesn't mean you make whatever you want unbelievable and unrealistic.

FloRaider42May 20, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Is that why Riot went out of their way to confirm 20+ champions as having heterosexual attractions?

Source? Can't seem to remember that one...

Is that why Riot goes out of their way to write quotes about insignificant details?

Like what for example?

Representation for lgbt people is not a burden. Don't treat it like one.

Am I? All I am saying is that you shouldn't add a characteristic for the sake of adding a characteristic.

You don't need a devblog to see that Pyke is black.

His corpse could just be bloated and darkened from water or it could just signify his origin as a bilgewater native etc., but the art development probably has some clues towards his appearence.

IcyPepperMay 20, 20188 votes

Aren't there hints with champions like Lux Ezreal Zoe ? There's a few champions with crushes if I recall correctly, like Ekko to Jinx with his quote, "I had a crush... until you started talking to the gun."

Then there's Gangplank Illaoi , Garen Katarina hints all over the place, TwistedFate having a shared skin with Evelynn (although that probably doesn't count as romantic, it is possible to dance platonically. Not to mention TF didn't die from it, so there). I'd have to dig for more examples, but they are there.

There's varying levels of hints about character sexuality with varying levels of importance to story. I don't blame people for wanting more diversity in it, but I don't think Riot is as bad as some are making them out to be. I realize, after reading what other people are saying, that I and others come across as a little too strong when it comes to presenting diversity, but on the flipside there are champions who are open with their heterosexuality but not blatant about it either and the some LGBT folk just want their fingers in that pie.

FloRaider42May 21, 20181 votes

but on the flipside there are champions who are open with their heterosexuality but not blatant about it either and the some LGBT folk just want their fingers in that pie.

The reason why it strikes me as hypocritical is that there are hints of other sexualities (Diana + Leona, Caitlyn + Vi, TF + Graves, Varus + Varus, Eve + everbody else) already. There definetly could be more, but some people act like those aren't good enough.

I already responed to Arakadia about the reasoning behind some of those characters having their attractions revealed and almost all serve (or have served) a narrative purpose. You definetly could have changed those characters gender and the narrative would still work, but since they ended up with their current gender during the design process it seems ignorant to see that as being homophobic.

I wouldn't mind if Ekko was a girl genius (he is probably male, because of the punk imaginery and the fact that he gets hurt over and over again in his lore/teasers), since the fact that he used to have a crush on Jinx still hints at their backstory and serve as a tragic reminder of their similiarity and differences (one represents the good in Zaun, while the other the bad).

The only relationship mentioned that serves no purpose is Ezreals, but I have the feeling Taric is reponsible...

ArakadiaMay 21, 20184 votes

What proof is there if Diana and Leona? Or Caitlyn and Vi? Evelyn is a total grasp for straws.

Most of the examples I listed do not serve a purpose. There is no narrative reason they included Ekko's interest in Jinx. It hints to their backstory but it didn't need to express Ekko's attraction to Jinx.

Which is the issue. It didn't need to include the part where Ekko's was attracted to girls. It shouldn't be a problem that there was unnecessary inclusion of someone's sexuality (whether he is bi or heterosexual) but apparently that is a problem.

Further more you have cases like Ezreal and Lux or Zoe and Ezreal. Random romances with totally unrelated characters who really shouldn't have much interest in one another EVEN IF they somehow had met. Zoe's childish crush makes sense but it doesn't add anything to the lore.

Another example is Rumble's silly crush. It doesn't serve a purpose. It's not a crucial part of his story but that's okay.

FloRaider42May 21, 20183 votes

There is no narrative reason they included Ekko's interest in Jinx. It hints to their backstory but it didn't need to express Ekko's attraction to Jinx.

You are contradicting yourself here. It does serve a purpose, it expresses their dynamic and backstory. Sure it doesn't need to be a crush, but that is actually the easist way to represent their relationship: "We used to be friends, until you talked to the gun" doesn't carry near as much weight as his budding love being torn apart by Jinxs developing "Rules/Buildings/People are meant to be broken" personality. Note that this would still work if Ekko was a girl or Jinx a boy, so it's not about their gender, but their relationship.

So yes the fact that Ekko was attracted to Jinx at some point (he could still be bi) does have a reason to be included.

I feel like Zoes crush does add to her childish personality, so while it doesn't add new narrative it helps in characterisation. Same thing for Illaoi who is attracted to people who follow her religion. Didn't Rumbles crush used to add to his story in the older lore? The mech is called Tristy so I always assumed he built it to impress her.

Still am confused by Ezreal X Lux, but https://media.lolusercontent.com/api/embedly/1/image/resize?url=https%3A%2F%2F3.bp.blogspot.com%2F-I2eCsL-8_WM%2FWahhQnjp9OI%2FAAAAAAABEwg%2Fj90w0o0fqWgU1Nc58jZNZjDO6CKOPRh-wCLcBGAs%2Fs1600%2F050ea44b907a1ceb.png&key=a45e967db0914c7fb472fd4381e6c85b&width=425

Most relationships revealed do serve a purpose and, apart from maybe Tryndamere and Ashes political marriage in the old lore, the narrative would still work if they were LGBT.

ArakadiaMay 21, 20184 votes

Riot recently (last couple years) has done a great job with inclusiveness imo. I'm not trying to say they did a bad job.

Especially considering that lgbt is a controversial topic and incorporating it into games is still kind of new, I'm happy that Riot is involved.

CHEAT ENGINE ssdMay 21, 20184 votes

North Americans pretending the rest of the world where league is more popular, wouldn't have side effects anywhere else.

Every time I turn around I'm hearing about lgbtq problems. It makes up a huge part of the discussion these days.

For a tiny sliver of population no one knew existed 100 years ago

SomeLinkMay 21, 20188 votes

{quoted}

North Americans pretending the rest of the world where league is more popular, wouldn't have side effects anywhere else.

Every time I turn around I'm hearing about lgbtq problems. It makes up a huge part of the discussion these days.

For a tiny sliver of population no one knew existed 100 years ago

I mean. Homosexual relationships are found in ancient greek, roman, mesopotanian cultures. So not really not existed 100 years ago.

Malicious MetalMay 20, 201819 votes

Hi there, I'm also on the LGBTQ spectrum, seeing that that B in there refers to Bisexual individuals just like myself.

The thing with homosexual characters, as already stated before, is that there's frankly not a very good way of actually confirming their sexuality without it either feeling tacked on, seen as just a PR move, or simply feel forced or unimportant to the character as a whole. Love is a very strong force, and one I think is the most important in this day and age, but sexual expression seems so utterly pointless and mundane nowadays.

I don't know how it's like in America, or other countries for that matter, seeing that I live in Switzerland, which is at the heart of Europe, but sexual orientation isn't a big deal here. The next step to gay acceptance isn't actually trying to aim for exposure, but rather for normalization, why should we even give a damn about who we like to sleep with and who we choose to love? It's given way too much weight, and I think that's the thing bothering a lot of people.

But if you ask me, sure! Give us some LGBTQ characters! As long as they're characters that can stand on their own and their sexuality isn't all of their character. Give their SO a strong role in their lore, flesh them out, don't just go, WELL X is X so they like to sleep with Y. No, gimme actual characters with relations to other people, that feels natural, that feels right.

Just my own silly two cents on the matter.

Seraphic ChickenMay 20, 20185 votes

Yep! I don't disagree with you. I'm just wondering if we will eventually get that strong, fleshed out lore, or if it's just going to be vague subtext that can easily be denied, you know?

Malicious MetalMay 20, 20186 votes

For that to happen we'd first need actually fleshed out lore in the first place :^)

But League's story team is inconsistent and slow when it comes to releasing new stories, so we'd wait a while for that to happen.

Teridax68May 22, 20183 votes

Considering how League has characters in romantic and even sexual relationships, and none of those were really tacked on, I'd say there's plenty of room for doing the same with LGBT characters, particularly since some of League's Universe stories have just that. Taric, for example, could've been the perfect champion to compliment the appearance of other male characters, particularly since he's generally perceived as queer, yet the sauciest thing we got out of him was him calling Diana beautiful, with strictly no equivalent for male characters. This, I feel, was a cop-out, particularly since Taric's whole story codes him as pansexual, yet stops short of any conclusive evidence. Varus's new story did much better in showing an unambiguously gay couple, but none of that has yet translated to anything in-game.

As a gay man myself, I feel that representation is both exposure and normalization, and both are necessary in achieving equality: a universe in which there are no queer characters, or no characters of color, is a universe that is making the deliberate choice to exclude those groups from the narrative, a choice we have seen far too often in most media. This is especially bad in a universe that aims to represent people and archetypes from the real world, because while an extremely alien fantasy world may have at least plausible deniability, a world that attempts to mirror at least some parts of ours doesn't. It's definitely progress when LGBT people are no longer attacked in public for being queer, or at least not as much as before, but as long as queer characters continue to be kept hidden from most stories, or have their romantic interests only suggested, rather than properly approached, when no such distinction is made for straight characters, then normalization, let alone equality, has not yet happened.

Adding to this, there's been this phenomenon in recent media called "queer-baiting", one that is prevalent on at least several Anglo-Saxon films, TV shows, etc.: essentially, two characters of the same gender are shown having an especially strong bond with each other, are frequently put in either comically or dramatically intimate situations, and otherwise generally show what would normally be called attraction towards each other... yet the story stops short of calling them queer, or doing anything with them that would make them unambiguously LGBT. Supernatural is a TV show that is infamous for this, as is the BBC's Sherlock. Frequently, it comes from a desire by the writers to attract a queer audience with the promise of queer representation, while still wanting to have their cake and eat it too by not delivering on any of it, and thereby not offending whichever conservative or mainstream audience they're also aiming for. In the end, it's a cowardly and manipulative move that exploits a media environment that is still largely deprived of substantial queer characters or relationships. I feel Riot has thankfully moved past at least some of that by including openly LGBT characters in its universe, but we have yet to see this fully realized in League's actual champion roster, imo.

RiotRiot YuujouMay 22, 201815 votes

Hi there, Reimari!

I'm part of the IDAHOTB team and am really really happy that the Rainbow fluft icon is something you appreciate. It is something I'm personally very proud of and am always floored by how well people are receiving it.

As to your questions, I wish I had good answers. I don't work on League of Legends, so I can't speak to what our immediate/long-term plans are. Even if I could, it's not my place / I'd probably get in trouble for it haha.

What I do want to say is that we talk about diversity and representation a LOT with regards to our company culture, the narrative, and even characters. As an LGBTQ+ player myself, I totally get the sentiment of wanting something more concrete. I've had many passing discussions with fellow Rioters and tons of us are very passionate about this space. The flip side to this passion is that it's difficult to get an agreement. With a player base as diverse as ours, it is also tricky to do the right thing, whatever that is or will be.

Currently, I doubt that there's anything I could say that would feel good. Whether I said "We have something in progress, just wait" or "We've got absolutely nothing" it'll feel good to some and be received very critically by others.

Until we get to wherever we are supposed to be (or intend to be) with our values reflected in the work we produce, I at least wanted to pop by and give you a response. Even if the response isn't the most satisfying thing in the world, it's the very least we can do to let you know that we do read the boards and we do take the feedback to heart.

AptestMay 23, 20182 votes

Let's have some real talk.

People will be very critical of you, if you say you are for "diversity" or "inclusion". It's important that you understand, it is not that they are narrow minded, or bigoted.

It is that they think, that they, the normal folk, want to be included too. And they don't think that inclusion or representation or diversity should be achieved by marginalizing or oppressing the normal person.

It is important you understand, that this sentiment has a reasonable basis, to exist.

Please be mindful: this statement is nuanced. You can easily stretch it to make me seem bigoted. You can easily miss understand it, if you look at the world through any kind of lens. Especially if your lens has resentment or grievance as some core ingredient. Handle with care.

NemeBroMay 23, 20184 votes

{quoted}

And they don't think that inclusion or representation or diversity should be achieved by marginalizing or oppressing the normal person.

How would the normal person be marginalized or oppressed?

jamaal charlesMay 21, 20183 votes

You also have to think about the lore writers and character designers at riot. They are probably straight so creating a straight character would be much easier to them than a gay character.

RiotRiot PlsMay 22, 201825 votes

Non-straight lore writer here, reporting in I've written lots of straight characters over the course of my career. :)

Teridax68May 22, 20182 votes

But have you written queer characters for League, though?

Lawd DawgMay 23, 20182 votes

You gotta think about it this way. It's easy to just write a lbgtq character, but they have to fit in. Let's take Demacia for example. Their strict and hate all sorts of change, especially magic. For an lgbtq character to be Demacian, they'd probably have to keep it in secret for fear of reprisals. Same probably with Noxus, though I would think that if they had a character who was immensely powerful and loyal to Noxus, they could get away with it.

Now if they made an Ionian character gay (got tired of typing lgbtq over and over sorry), then it would be easier, as it fits in Ionian values more. Probably could do a gay Piltover or Zaun character as well.

Freljord is ifffy, as I feel like they marry either for survival or political gain.

Point is, they can't just create a random queer character, they have to find a place for that character, and a background that makes sense. And then that character probably has to beat a dozen other character ideas in order to become a character.

Teridax68May 23, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lawd Dawg,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=Apu9NoEs,comment-id=001e000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-23T00:05:51.901+0000)

You gotta think about it this way. It's easy to just write a lbgtq character, but they have to fit in.

This is fair, but Runeterra is also an entirely fictional universe with very different conventions and social norms compared to our world. As a deeply repressive state, Demacia may qualify, particularly since Fiora comes across as a closeted lesbian, but then Noxus is canonically a place where sexuality is entirely fluid, and frequently used as a tool for self-advancement. In a universe where only one out of a dozen locations has the potential to be homophobic, and where there is strictly no mention of homophobia at all, there isn't really an in-universe obstacle to writing queer characters, particularly since we have some already.

My point with the above question was also that the response didn't really answer the original comment: there is indeed a widespread problem in media where writers frequently prefer to tread familiar ground, and in an environment dominated by straight writers, we tend to see only straight characters get written, or at least characters very clearly written from the perspective of a straight person. More generally, though, the issue is that queer characters still don't get written that much, in part because of prevailing attitudes and a general dearth of existing characters to draw from. In this respect, a queer writer writing straight characters does nothing to detract from that, as that work merely contributes to the status quo. This isn't to say that queer writers should only write queer characters, but writing a straight character isn't exactly unconventional or revolutionary in and of itself, regardless of their writer's sexuality, and so shouldn't be held as such.

Lawd DawgMay 23, 20181 votes

Alright fair, but they gotta have a reason to be queer. If they just made a champion, and said "hey, he's queer btw", that's just poor writing. But let's take Fiora. If they made Fiora a closeted lesbian, and talked about how her fear of her sexuality being discovered made her push harder to take over House Laurent and focus on fencing, then that's a character design we should get behind and push. And maybe they have worked on a character like that, but once again still has to beat all the other character creation ideas.

Also the problem with you asking for unique queer characters is that there are ways to make a champion unique without being queer. The void champs, yordles, Ivern, Rammus, Vollibear, and others. They aren't your standard heterosexual male or female human game character. Now, you may say, "well they can just add that volibear is queer, and problem solved". Yea, now that's just poor writing. Not saying they can't make a gay thunder bear, but just making voli gay makes no sense. Gotta go from the ground up. Take Fiora. If they said "Hey, her fear of people discovering her sexuality in a repressive state drove her to take control of House Laurent and helped her focus on refining her fencing skills", that sounds a whole lot better than just making a queer character queer.

Also, its a lot easier to write a character in your comfort zone. (Well for me it is). So if I'm straight, its easier to write about a straight character than a queer one. LGBT people can write a queer character far better than I could, because they would know the ins and outs of a queer character. Would you rather a stereotypical queer character that's insulting, or a fully fleshed out queer character who's place in the lore is fully understood.

Teridax68May 23, 20184 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lawd Dawg,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=Apu9NoEs,comment-id=001e00000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-23T01:32:50.298+0000)

Alright fair, but they gotta have a reason to be queer.

Why? Does a character need a reason to be straight? Does a person need a reason to be gay, straight or otherwise IRL? Personally, I don't think it was poor writing at all to mention Tamara's random lady hookup, even if it had strictly no relation to the main story, and I feel asking people to justify their queerness merely serves to invalidate their sexuality.

[{quoted}](name=Lawd Dawg,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=Apu9NoEs,comment-id=001e00000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-23T01:32:50.298+0000)

Also the problem with you asking for unique queer characters is that there are ways to make a champion unique without being queer.

Okay, but first off, this does not justify deliberately avoiding queer characters in the first place. Moreover, nobody is asking to just slap queerness onto characters for the sake of novelty, people here are asking for actual queer characters, i.e. characters who get to bring in completely new narrative opportunities via their own sexuality or gender identity, narratives that currently underserved players can connect with. Valmar and Kai are one such example, and their own romance is just as valid as that of Xayah and Rakan. Moreover, queerness isn't just something one slaps onto characters for the sole purpose of making them unique, it's an aspect of people's identities that would still have value even if it weren't unconventional in any way at all (which is ultimately a goal of queer representation). The mere act of valuing queerness purely in terms of novelty value is itself an issue here.

[{quoted}](name=Lawd Dawg,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=Apu9NoEs,comment-id=001e00000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-23T01:32:50.298+0000)

The void champs, yordles, Ivern, Rammus, Vollibear, and others. They aren't your standard heterosexual male or female human game character. Now, you may say, "well they can just add that volibear is queer, and problem solved".

I'm sorry, who here exactly asked to make these particular characters queer? Who is asking to make all characters queer, or to ascribe sexuality to all characters in League? For sure, League has some non-human characters, children, fantasy monsters, and so on, so there are definitely going to be plenty of characters with no particularly defined sexuality. However, that does not in any way contradict the value in having at least some queer characters in the roster, just as we already have plenty of champions already portrayed as straight.

[{quoted}](name=Lawd Dawg,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=Apu9NoEs,comment-id=001e00000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-23T01:32:50.298+0000)

Also, its a lot easier to write a character in your comfort zone. (Well for me it is). So if I'm straight, its easier to write about a straight character than a queer one. LGBT people can write a queer character far better than I could, because they would know the ins and outs of a queer character. Would you rather a stereotypical queer character that's insulting, or a fully fleshed out queer character who's place in the lore is fully understood.

Okay, so first off, if a straight writer cannot write a gay character without turning them into an insulting stereotype, then they are a hack, and quite likely homophobic to boot. Second, if there are not enough queer writers around to write even one queer champion in League, then that is itself a major problem. What you just pointed out is a need for diversity IRL, as by your own reasoning, a writing team that is itself lacking in diversity will simply not be able to write a universe and character roster as rich as if they had people with different experiences on board. People having comfort zones is not a justification for striking out entire groups of valuable characters, archetypes, experiences, and so on, from the narrative, and merely shifts the blame over to poor diversity among writers. Considering how there are at least two queer Rioters who came to this very thread, one of whom is a writer, one can hope that the latter is not the problem here.

ArakadiaMay 23, 20184 votes

Point is, they can't just create a random queer character, they have to find a place for that character, and a background that makes sense. And then that character probably has to beat a dozen other character ideas in order to become a character.

To be fair, why? In real life a person isn't gay because it ties into their background or home land. You said it yourself, almost every place in Runeterra would let you tell a different facet of how it is to live lgbt.

Lawd DawgMay 23, 20181 votes

I did?!?!

Damn shot myself in the foot there lol. Ok maybe they could. Still has to beat all the other character creation ideas. Which would you rather have, a queer Demacian Lancer, a shadow isles Reptilian mage, a noxus rebel slave, or an ionian murderer? While you may want a queer lancer, if more people say hey we can make the ionian murderer work, well, looks like the lancer is gonna have to wait another day.

Teridax68May 23, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lawd Dawg,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=Apu9NoEs,comment-id=001e00000000000000010000,timestamp=2018-05-23T01:36:34.197+0000)

Which would you rather have, a queer Demacian Lancer, a shadow isles Reptilian mage, a noxus rebel slave, or an ionian murderer?

This may not be 100% on topic, but one of the most popular characters in Fire Emblem, Ike, pretty much fits the "queer Demacian Lancer" bill. His sexuality isn't even narratively important, even if it's canon. I agree that designing champions comes down to picking characters that have new and interesting stories to tell, but imo this is even more of a reason to include queer characters, since having one such character would tell a story that is a) new, as we don't have any major stories of queer experiences in League yet, save perhaps for gay male romance with Kai and Valmar (though neither are mentioned in-game), b) interesting, as there is much to draw from for this kind of character, and c) relatable, as having a character queer players could relate to is inherently valuable in itself.

NocturnalSheildMay 23, 20182 votes

{quoted}

This may not be 100% on topic, but one of the most popular characters in Fire Emblem, Ike, pretty much fits the "queer Demacian Lancer" bill. His sexuality isn't even narratively important, even if it's canon. I agree that designing champions comes down to picking characters that have new and interesting stories to tell, but imo this is even more of a reason to include queer characters, since having one such character would tell a story that is a) new, as we don't have any major stories of queer experiences in League yet, save perhaps for gay male romance with Kai and Valmar (though neither are mentioned in-game), b) interesting, as there is much to draw from for this kind of character, and c) relatable, as having a character queer players could relate to is inherently valuable in itself.

What queer experiences.

They have perfectly normal relationships except their pieces dont fit together properly. Thats literally the only difference. And since riot is T for teen they cant/shouldnt talk about genitals.

So all thats different is whether you want you champion to be relatable to 95% of the population. Or 5% of the population.

OleandervineMay 23, 20184 votes

{quoted}

What queer experiences.

They have perfectly normal relationships except their pieces dont fit together properly. Thats literally the only difference. And since riot is T for teen they cant/shouldnt talk about genitals.

So all thats different is whether you want you champion to be relatable to 95% of the population. Or 5% of the population.

A Pacific Islander like Illaoi isn't even relatable to 5% of the population, given that Pacific islander makes up so little of the overall population, so tell me where your logic stands there? Or how about a widower like Lucian? How many people does his narrative connect with who play the game? Give me those statistics. Characters with niche stories and experiences are there to enrich the overall narrative, so that's it's not the same bland stories retold over and over. People don't include diverse stories and characters based on population density, they include them because they add a new voice and can present a different experience and point of view.

NocturnalSheildMay 23, 20182 votes

{quoted}

A Pacific Islander like Illaoi isn't even relatable to 5% of the population, given that Pacific islander makes up so little of the overall population, so tell me where your logic stands there? Or how about a widower like Lucian? How many people does his narrative connect with who play the game? Give me those statistics. Characters with niche stories and experiences are there to enrich the overall narrative, so that's it's not the same bland stories retold over and over. People don't include diverse stories and characters based on population density, they include them because they add a new voice and can present a different experience and point of view.

Literally no one goes.

Oh yes illaoi the pacific islander, they go oh yea illaoi the butch one.

Same with lucian. It isnt lucian the widower. Its lucian the black dude with 2 guns.

Basically what you want (since varus isnt acceptable) is oh yea "i know that dude hes the gay one"

You want something thats so insignificant people dont even think about it when you mention their character. To be put to the front of the character.

OleandervineMay 23, 20184 votes

{quoted}

Literally no one goes.

Oh yes illaoi the pacific islander, they go oh yea illaoi the butch one.

Same with lucian. It isnt lucian the widower. Its lucian the black dude with 2 guns.

Basically what you want (since varus isnt acceptable) is oh yea "i know that dude hes the gay one"

You want something thats so insignificant people dont even think about it when you mention their character. To be put to the front of the character.

Literally no one is asking for a rainbow flag waving hyper gay person who's nothing but a story about gay love. Not a single person asking for diversity and representation is asking for that. We want a character who's a fleshed out person with their own story, with just a little line peppered in to show that they have some LBGT orientation.

Take Taliyah for example. She's a young girl coming to grips with her powers over earth and stone - simple coming of age story, with some ties into Yasuo sempai. But then, we have 1 line (ONE!) where she flirts with Ekko. Is her narrative suddenly overshadowed by a strumpet personality and this burning thirst for Ekko's D? Did her story go from earthbender to a Twilight-level saga of love for a silly boy she met? The answer is "no." And it should remain "no."

So let's make a twist. What if instead of Ekko that she flirted with, it was Lux. Does her narrative suddenly get overshadowed by a lesbian lust personality and a burning thirst for Lux's bosom? Does her story go from earthbender to a "The L Word" level saga of love for a silly girl she met? The answer here is also "no." But you know what that just did? It gave the LBGT community representation in the game. It literally changes nothing about Taliyah at all, but if we simply swap out her flirt from a boy to a girl, boom, we get representation.

That's all the community wants. Representation that's organic, simple, and real. Changing a flirt, or even having one in general doesn't usurp that champion's entire personality and suddenly make everything about their orientation. Get real, and use some common sense and basic understanding of stories and character building. Stop thinking everything has to be a trope, and realize that LGBT people can have characters just like everyone else, with LGBT affections instead of straight ones.

NocturnalSheildMay 23, 20182 votes

{quoted}

Literally no one is asking for a rainbow flag waving hyper gay person who's nothing but a story about gay love. Not a single person asking for diversity and representation is asking for that. We want a character who's a fleshed out person with their own story, with just a little line peppered in to show that they have some LBGT orientation.

Take Taliyah for example. She's a young girl coming to grips with her powers over earth and stone - simple coming of age story, with some ties into Yasuo sempai. But then, we have 1 line (ONE!) where she flirts with Ekko. Is her narrative suddenly overshadowed by a strumpet personality and this burning thirst for Ekko's D? Did her story go from earthbender to a Twilight-level saga of love for a silly boy she met? The answer is "no." And it should remain "no."

So let's make a twist. What if instead of Ekko that she flirted with, it was Lux. Does her narrative suddenly get overshadowed by a lesbian lust personality and a burning thirst for Lux's bosom? Does her story go from earthbender to a "The L Word" level saga of love for a silly girl she met? The answer here is also "no." But you know what that just did? It gave the LBGT community representation in the game. It literally changes nothing about Taliyah at all, but if we simply swap out her flirt from a boy to a girl, boom, we get representation.

That's all the community wants. Representation that's organic, simple, and real. Changing a flirt, or even having one in general doesn't usurp that champion's entire personality and suddenly make everything about their orientation. Get real, and use some common sense and basic understanding of stories and character building. Stop thinking everything has to be a trope, and realize that LGBT people can have characters just like everyone else, with LGBT affections instead of straight.

**So let's make a twist. What if instead of Ekko that she flirted with, it was Lux. Does her narrative suddenly get overshadowed by a lesbian lust personality and a burning thirst for Lux's bosom? Does her story go from earthbender to a "The L Word" level saga of love for a silly girl she met? The answer here is also "no." But you know what that just did? It gave the LBGT community representation in the game. It literally changes nothing about Taliyah at all, but if we simply swap out her flirt from a boy to a girl, boom, we get representation. **

So it both changes nothing and isnt a big deal. And is a super important thing for a certain demograpic...

That makes no sense.

OleandervineMay 23, 20185 votes

{quoted}

&*So let's make a twist. What if instead of Ekko that she flirted with, it was Lux. Does her narrative suddenly get overshadowed by a lesbian lust personality and a burning thirst for Lux's bosom? Does her story go from earthbender to a "The L Word" level saga of love for a silly girl she met? The answer here is also "no." But you know what that just did? It gave the LBGT community representation in the game. It literally changes nothing about Taliyah at all, but if we simply swap out her flirt from a boy to a girl, boom, we get representation. **

So it both changes nothing and isnt a big deal. And is a super important thing for a certain demograpic...

That makes no sense.

You clearly do not understand being in a marginalized group and why visibility is important. As I said before, you are set in your beliefs, so good day.

RiotRiot PlsMay 24, 20188 votes

"Have you written queer characters for League, though?"

Not yet, but I'm new. :-)

[{quoted}](name=Lawd Dawg,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=Apu9NoEs,comment-id=001e000000000000,timestamp=2018-05-23T00:05:51.901+0000)

You gotta think about it this way. It's easy to just write a lbgtq character, but they have to fit in. Let's take Demacia for example. Their strict and hate all sorts of change, especially magic. For an lgbtq character to be Demacian, they'd probably have to keep it in secret for fear of reprisals. Same probably with Noxus, though I would think that if they had a character who was immensely powerful and loyal to Noxus, they could get away with it.

[...]

Point is, they can't just create a random queer character, they have to find a place for that character, and a background that makes sense. And then that character probably has to beat a dozen other character ideas in order to become a character.

Wanted to respond to two points here:

The idea that to write a character that's LBGTQ means they "have to fit in" or justify their existence is fundamentally a flawed assumption. You're holding the bar for POC and minority characters higher than straight, "white" characters because in games for a long time, "straight, white, male" was the default and the assumption. But why do we default to that? We don't bat an eye when a character are those things, but the instant it's something else (a woman, a queer character, etc.) there's infinite scrutiny and complaints that they "don't make sense."
The idea that Runeterra (or any fantastical world) defaults to homophobia, or traditional gender roles and dude-led kingdoms and governments, seems awfully limited from an imagination standpoint. We as writers have the privilege and responsibility to build this world from scratch; why can't it be better than our own? Demacia may repress magic, but why must that also mean it is against certain expressions of love? Noxus is a place where merit and strength is more important than anything. Many people have said "I don't care about a character's sexuality, just their skills and abilities." I see no place that's more true than Noxus.

Lawd DawgMay 24, 20183 votes

Well damn, wasn't imagining I of all people would get a response. And I see how I have had some pretty flawed thought processes. But I have a question though: If the world of Runeterra can be so much better than our own, how come no LGBTQ characters exist yet? The reason why I thought Demacia would be such a rigid state is because we haven't seen otherwise. Lux afraid that Garen would turn her in, Fiora having to kill her own father out of honor, J4 holding himself to a higher standard. If they aren't repressive to certain expressions of love, why haven't we seen it yet. And if Noxus holds a character skills and abilities in such high regard, why haven't we seen a lgbtq character with said skills and abilities?

Really sorry about the whole fitting in argument though, that was my bad.

RiotRiot PlsMay 25, 20184 votes

It's all good! And that's a great question: "why not yet?" I can't speak to "why not in the past," as I wasn't here, but I think the request for a highly visible lgbtq character is a very fair one, and will be something I keep in mind in my work for sure.

LongHair FoxMay 25, 20181 votes

Varus being gay and evelynn very likely being bi-sexual mean that there are LGBTQ+ character right?

FasmodeyMay 25, 20185 votes

Varus is not gay, 2 men inside of him are. And they are not champions but major side characters in Varus' story. They don't count IMO.

Evelynn is demon, she is not interested in humans sexually and emotionally. She doesn't even get laid with humans, she just seduces and tortures. So you don't sex with Evelynn, you horribly die.

OleandervineMay 23, 20186 votes

[{quoted}](name=Riot mChao,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=Apu9NoEs,comment-id=001e0000,timestamp=2018-05-22T21:58:09.554+0000)

Non-straight lore writer here, reporting in I've written lots of straight characters over the course of my career. :)

I commend your LGBT stuff you do in the side stories and stuff, but not having any kind of non-straight interactions in the game itself leaves a lot to be desired, and doesn't do much to reflect on the company taking a stand with the LGBT community. It comes across a bit like just trying to jump on a bandwagon without the commitment to action. In the game that's going on with 130+ characters, not having any LGBT interactions at all is starting to look deliberate, especially when other diversity is organically built into the champs we play. It'd be nice to have you guys have an open conversation at your HQ about how to fix this, because statistically, some characters should have had some non-straight interactions by now. The side stuff is fantastic, I loved Progress Day and all, but it's just that - side content, and not main game content. So please champion the cause on your end! [sg-kiko]