I feel like we need to do VU's by themselves again.
Morgana, Janna, Veigar, Maokai, etc. could all benefit from a VU but not necessarily a game play update.
Morgana, Janna, Veigar, Maokai, etc. could all benefit from a VU but not necessarily a game play update.
...Maokai got already a VU...
Sure he still needs new animations and VO,but his model looks pretty good.
Also while these champs need a VU more than a GU,it would delay the champions who need a full VGU.
I mean think about it. What is more important?Updating the champs who are only in need of a VU(though I guess even they could use a few gameplay tweaks),or updating those who are in need of both a VU and a GU? Why would you update those champs where you only need to fix one problem,when you can update a champ where you can fix 2 problems at once?
Exactly. It's about making the most of your resources to make a good product. Just doing VU's would be a bit wasteful, especially if it turns out that they would need a heavy gameplay update somewhere down the line.
Exactly. It's about making the most of your resources to make a good product. Just doing VU's would be a bit wasteful, especially if it turns out that they would need a heavy gameplay update somewhere down the line.
Problem is, we've got champions like Corki who are fine from a gameplay standpoint while being in dire need of a visual update due to the fact that they no longer fit with the visual themes of their faction.
Same deal with Kog. He could get by with Shyvana level changes to his kit (make him damage amp focused via resist shred, Rito plz), but his visuals fall FAR short of the bar set by other Void beasties. His base model looks almost nothing like his splash art.
Gameplay before visuals. I'd rather Riot put making the game better over making the game prettier.
It sucks, but that's how it is.
Gameplay before visuals. I'd rather Riot put making the game better over making the game prettier.
It sucks, but that's how it is.
Questionable whether or not the full VGUs have made the game better. I only rarely played old Sion and Poppy, but I was pretty put off that Riot totally threw out their champion archetype in the process. I was seriously hoping that Sion's rework would have given us two champions, one focusing on his Juggernaut archetype and the other on his Mage archetype, both tweaked for game health of course. Instead we got something that, while certainly a really cool champion, isn't Sion.
Full VGUs invoke equal parts dread and hope. I think my main (
) could do with a VGU that just keeps his W with a heavily modified Q, but at the same time what if Riot thinks the thing that defines Kog isn't what I enjoy about him? AP Kog players have already been burned on that front.
Basically, I've got a love/hate relationship with the full VGUs. Even some of the mini-gameplay updates have been intensely polarizing. But updating champs who are really showing their half a decade age? Everyone can get behind that.
Everyone can get behind updating the visuals of champions. But it's not the best use of resources.
Everyone can get behind updating the visuals of champions. But it's not the best use of resources.
'Best' is pretty darn subjective.
Riot got higher reception out of the full VGUs. Well, of course. If you just update the visuals of a super unpopular champion, not much is going to be changing. Their mains will be happy, but no one else will care. A full VGU of a super unpopular champion is going to result in a TON of people trying them out.
And then they'll get relegated to the dustbin again after a few weeks of commotion
.
And then they'll get relegated to the dustbin again after a few weeks of commotion
.
So where is your proof that Yorick has been back to the dustbin? Because if I look at his playrate and winrate I think that the rework did improve him quite a bit. Sure he is not perfect,but he does actually have a decent winrate(over 50%) and while he isn't super popular,he isn't bottom tier-levels of unpopular,with him being the number 102 of the most played champs(keep in mind this actually takes the multiple roles of a champion into account,so champs like Maokai are counted 2 times,once for both positions)
http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.playPercent&order=descend
He was even allowed back into the free rotation.
So where is your proof that Yorick has been back to the dustbin? Because if I look at his playrate and winrate I think that the rework did improve him quite a bit. Sure he is not perfect,but he does actually have a decent winrate(over 50%) and while he isn't super popular,he isn't bottom tier-levels of unpopular,with him being the number 102 of the most played champs(keep in mind this actually takes the multiple roles of a champion into account,so champs like Maokai are counted 2 times,once for both positions)
http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.playPercent&order=descend
He was even allowed back into the free rotation.
Yorick graduated from bottom 5 to bottom 20. Which... I guess is an improvement? Some of the VGUs were super successful. Some of them weren't. I'm just being cautious about billing them as a universally great thing. I'm not a Poppy main, but I know there were quite a few Poppy mains who were immeasurably pissed off that Poppy wasn't a Diver anymore.
I'm really dreading the Galio remake. He's not bad by any means. He's actually pretty great, just unpopular. His mains obviously enjoy him. But if he gets uprooted as hard as Poppy or Sion did, there are going to be some dedicated players who are really sad their champ has been deleted from the game.
Then don't ask for an VGU then lol. It's like people bitching about wanting one only to bitch about getting it after.
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Then don't ask for an VGU then lol. It's like people bitching about wanting one only to bitch about getting it after.
I'm not asking for a VGU.
I'm asking for a visual update. That's why I'm in this topic. Kog desperately needs a visual update but he doesn't need a Sion-level gameplay update. The changes Kog needs to give him a coherent niche could be done with pretty basic number tweaks, no new model or particles required.
You do realize you can't get a VU withthout a new model and particles right? Beside Kog'maw needs an vgu his kit isn't healthy and is basicly an really shitty vayne without the mobility atm.
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You do realize you can't get a VU withthout a new model and particles right?
I'm aware.
Beside Kog'maw needs an vgu his kit isn't healthy and is basicly an really shitty vayne without the mobility atm.
He could be fixed with Shy-level changes, no new particles or model required. But after doing some pondering, I can think of a few changes that would really require a full VGU to work. Mainly making it so his basic attacks don't interrupt his spells and visa/versa. But that really wouldn't be required to get him to function. It would help, though. Since a kit that encourages high attack speed and spell-spamming doesn't mesh very well.
Well Shyvana had an gu instead of an vu with some extra particles.
Kogmaw needs an vgu since his last gu didn't go very well. Need I remind you machine gun kogmaw?
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Well Shyvana had an gu instead of an vu with some extra particles.
Kogmaw needs an vgu since his last gu didn't go very well. Need I remind you machine gun kogmaw?
The last GU didn't work out well because the Live Balance team gave him a quite frankly game breaking itemization niche instead of providing him with an actual reason to be picked apart from 'does all the damage'.
The only thing Kog needs is to have his Q remade into a reliable tool for shredding the shit out of the resistance of the enemy team. This could come along with nerfs to his W stat-check button and I would be totally fine with that. He could get a full VGU, but again, Shy level changes would be sufficient to give him an actual gameplay niche.
Actually its higher than the bottom 20. The list counts every champion in every role,so it has over 200 spots as most champs have more than one position that they can fill. So Yorick-top-lane is pretty much in the middle of things.
This is correct. Yorick actually has a very healthy playrate for what we consider a "niche" champion. We never intended Yorick to be a broad appeal champion like Poppy, for example.
just wondering, do you mean thematically? or do you mean, playstyle wise, yorick appeals to a specific set of players (nasus players)
Both. Minionmancers are usually niche gameplay archetypes and a gravedigger monk is a pretty niche theme
i love minionmancers.
and too a lesser extent 
But not
. too boring
This is correct. Yorick actually has a very healthy playrate for what we consider a "niche" champion. We never intended Yorick to be a broad appeal champion like Poppy, for example.
I want to preface this by saying that it isn't my intent to be contrary, so I'll apologize in advance if it comes off that way.
In ranked play at least, Yorick is sitting at just under twice Galio's play rate. Yorick was intentionally nerfed into unviability over on Rift, so it's no shocker that his play rate has roughly doubled now that he has a kit that can be balanced. Galio is getting a rework, too. But he isn't nearly as bad off as Yorick was. He's unpopular, certainly, but his players are doing quite well with him.
So I guess the question is why is Galio getting remade? He isn't unhealthy for the game. He didn't get 'Eve'd' and his win rate is solid. He's just really unpopular. Is Galio only getting remade because of his out-dated model and unpopularity? Because if that's the case, then he's getting remade for the people who don't like him rather than the people who do.
This is why the full VGUs make me uneasy. Changes for the sake of the majority who aren't invested in a champion, the minority that already enjoyed that champ notwithstanding. When a Poppy or Sion or Yorick remake goes live, a champion is being removed from the game and being replaced with something wholly unlike their predecessor. Are they healthier champions for it? Without a doubt. But the complete loss of their identity is off-putting.
's why I'm totally okay with VGUs like the one Gangplank got. He's VASTLY different now compared to what he was when he still had his trouser tarantula model, but he's overall a much more interesting and compelling champion while also maintaining his core identity and gameplay.
They also do things for thematic reasons. I don't know his kit, but does it give you the impression of stone gargoyle guardian?
How many champions do you consider niche? I thought Riot was trying to give all champions more playability (LCS)? I also thought Riot wanted to make all champions niche, so to avoid generalist picks?
LCS playability is not a goal of ours. We do want champions to be successful in a range of elos though. There are always going to be some champions that are stronger in a coordinated team while others are stronger in SoloQ, and that's fine.
We do want to give every champion a unique strategic identity though, which isn't the same as having niche gameplay.
When I say niche vs broad I'm more referring to the difference between Thresh and Bard, for example. Thresh and Bard both have awesome gameplay/art/theme and both have unique strategic identities.
Thresh pretty much always has a much higher playrate then Bard. This isn't because Thresh is just a better champion then Bard, it's just that playmaking grim reaper is a broader theme then mysterious wandering pacifist.
I'd argue that Thresh also has a generalist kit involving engage, disengage, and the ability to save his team and immobilize teams (w/e his ult does), but I'm not the right player to go into that.
Not balancing everything around the LCS I'm personally fine with, though that does bring up the question regarding champion diversity, and how balancing that affects SoloQ.
Both Sion and Poppy are vast improvements from their previous designs in every possible way. Yorick, in my opinion, is also one of the best reworks they have done.
The rework teams tend to do really good work, the class updates are not always the best though. I think its because they spread resources between so many champions within a certain time limit.
Both Sion and Poppy are vast improvements from their previous designs in every possible way. Yorick, in my opinion, is also one of the best reworks they have done.
The rework teams tend to do really good work, the class updates are not always the best though. I think its because they spread resources between so many champions within a certain time limit.
I don't disagree at all. With either of your points, really. Mostly I take issue with the archetype of Poppy and Sion being changed. Yorick remained a minion-focused Juggernaut. Just in a fashion that's more compelling than 'spam ghouls at people until you run out of mana'. Poppy was somewhere between an Assassin and a Diver while Sion was somewhere between a Skirmisher and a Juggernaut. Riot could have done an amazing job reworking them into champs that still filled those archetypes, but they didn't.
lmfao I don't know if you are remembering correctly but Sion was a stupid mage before the rework. He has like 1.1 ap scaling point click long range stun and a 1.1 ap scaling AoE exploding shield. He would run into a teamfight with shield up, explode it, killing about half the enemies instantly, then stun and run down the remaining survivors.
Poppy was just a terrible champion, i am glad old poppy is gone forever.
lmfao I don't know if you are remembering correctly but Sion was a stupid mage before the rework. He has like 1.1 ap scaling point click long range stun and a 1.1 ap scaling AoE exploding shield.
They were both 1.0 originally and they both got nerfed down to 0.9 when Deathcap was created. Sion's stun wasn't long range, it had about the same range as Siv's basic attack.
He would run into a teamfight with shield up, explode it, killing about half the enemies instantly, then stun and run down the remaining survivors.
Right. It was super binary, hence why he needed a rework. That and the fact he basically had three useless components in his kit.
Poppy was just a terrible champion, i am glad old poppy is gone forever.
That is certainly an opinion.
Yea I couldn't remember the exact scalings, but they were still really high. Got my first several Penta's with old Sion. That is still longer than melee and it would travel long distances if they tried to run or flash, which they often would.
My point was he wasn't a skirmishers or a juggernaut, he was a burst mage.
A very popular opinion, to the point it is almost considered a fact.
I was seriously hoping that Sion's rework would have given us two champions, one focusing on his Juggernaut archetype and the other on his Mage archetype, both tweaked for game health of course. Instead we got something that, while certainly a really cool champion, isn't Sion.
You say this like there was ever anything mage-like about Sion other than the fact that his Q had incredible AP-ratios.
AP Sion was never meant to be a thing,it didn't fit his character(he is a giant undead warrior,with a huge axe,nothing that really fits a mage),his gameplay was incredibly gimmicky(his Q and W were powerful,while his ult was practically useless and his E didn't do much as well) and unhealthy as well(nothing you could do against his Q,allowing him to QW you without counterplay).
Like what was there even to keep?He only used 2 abilities,one that definetly belonged into the trash can(point-and-click stun/burst) and one that works perfectly fine for Bruiser-sion
Corki and Kog could both be much more exciting and interesting champions with a full VGU.
what about ezreal then. or someday katarina, there you have a champ who just got reworked gameplay and its really really good, but her model and voice are a bit dated (though they still look pretty good, its just an example)
I dunno, I think if you took some skin people and put them on VUs... granted they don't make money like skins do, but it would be pretty great.
Or maokai, looks good, has pretty good gameplay, but could use a new voiceover.
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what about ezreal then. or someday katarina, there you have a champ who just got reworked gameplay and its really really good, but her model and voice are a bit dated (though they still look pretty good, its just an example)
I dunno, I think if you took some skin people and put them on VUs... granted they don't make money like skins do, but it would be pretty great.
Or maokai, looks good, has pretty good gameplay, but could use a new voiceover.
Katarina got a full blown VGU in 2012. She is not in the running for any more updates, given that she has a recall animation, and a few vocals that pertain to other champs, and she just recently got a kit update.
For actual VGUs and VUs that need to happen, I think Sona, Shen, Maokai, Fiora, Alistar, Singed, and Miss Fortune all need to get real VUs, and not those half-assed ones they got. They got new upholstery stretched on an old chair with the same creaks and groans. They needed full blown new rigging, new models, new VOs, and new animations. I will be very upset if these champs get passed over, because they are NOT up to current standards. They were scooted into updates and they've been tweaked and worked on over the years, and they deserve to look as good as every new champion and every real reworked champion, especially since they got most of the kit work done without the extensive visuals and audio to go along.
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they're a lot higher quality now, in terms of number of voice lines, and sometimes the acting. idk, gets old hearing the same shit from ezreal always
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Its not that what he currently has isn't good,its more that he could use a bit more.
I mean he doesn't have a recall animation and he doesn't have many lines either.

Could all use a model change with some better animations, to name a few.
Amumu, Cho, Corki, Mundo, fiddle, Kayle/Morg, Nocturne, Tryndamere, Teemo
All are in the list to get VGUs one day.
The others will probably end up on the list once we get through every champion we have on the list right now
I do appreciate the insight, but I think I didn't make my point clear; what about the characters that don't need a full VGU like Caitlyn, Ezrael, Udyr or Talon because their gameplay doesn't need as much updating? Ezrael and Caitlyn both see an enormous amount of play, yet their models and animations are just not up to par to modern League standards. Are they ever going to get a VU like Kassadin did (which, imo, greatly improved the overall readability and feel of the character).
My point was that by the time we get through all the champions that need a full VGU right now those champions might seem much more dated then they do right now (a lot of the champions we are doing VGUs on today didn't seem nearly as dated when they first released)
We don't want to do a VU now and then update them again in the future with a full VGU.
Ezreal for example could totally get a Tristana level VGU one day in the future.
My point was that by the time we get through all the champions that need a full VGU right now those champions might seem much more dated then they do right now (a lot of the champions we are doing VGUs on today didn't seem nearly as dated when they first released)
We don't want to do a VU now and then update them again in the future with a full VGU.
Ezreal for example could tots get a Tristana level VGU one day in the future.
Will you guys go back for champs that have already either gotten gameplay updates or VGU's and work on them. Because Garen, Mordekaiser, Skarner, and Shen really need to be fixed after their updates kind of ruined them.
We don't consider anything "done" at Riot so any champion is on the table to get work one day, it's just a question of priorities. Of those you listed I know Morde is pretty high on our list for a full VGU someday.
Does Ezreal really need one though? He's a skillshot marksmen where outside of his W seems to be fun to play.
That was my point though. Ez could totally get a VGU where just the W changed
Trist level is pretty much a VU with 1 ability getting changed. So Ezreal is a perfect champion for that
By VGUs, do you indeed mean visual and gameplay? If so, it's really surprising that you would list Corki given that there's nothing obviously wrong with his gameplay.
By VGUs, do you indeed mean visual and gameplay? If so, it's really surprising that you would list Corki given that there's nothing obviously wrong with his gameplay.
I was thinking the same thing myself.
Corki is decently popular, unique, and a solid pick for both bottom lane and mid. Why would he need a full VGU?
One of the major goals of champion update is to go through the older champions and modernize them. Obviously the champions with deeper problems usually get prioritized first.
Corki is mainly on that list because his theme/visuals are pretty dated. He's a very low priority though.
A VGU is basically when we take a champion and build it from the ground up as if it was a new champion. We ask ourselves "what would this champion be like if we made this champion today, as a new champion?"
Some things stand the test of time and don't need to be changed while others don't. By the time we get to Corki we could find that most of his kit held up and doesn't need to be changed. Tristana was a full VGU for example that had pretty small gameplay changes.
A VGU just means that we change whatever makes sense to make a champion feel like a modern, cohesive champion that we would be proud to release today. It doesn't necessarily mean that it needs to have a full new kit (though in many cases with our older champions it does.)
Also sometimes changes to lore/art/theme requires gameplay changes to make the overall champion feel cohesive.