The Gay Couple in Varus's New lore is not the problem

MontethePython·Nov 30, 2017·104 votes·5,233 views

Although it feels a little shoehorned in, and riot could have made a much more fleshed out and interesting Gay champion, that part is not really the issue.

The issue is that they took the relatively fleshed out and interesting story of Varus's old lore, which involved Varus being torn between his duty as a soldier and his true desire to abandon his post in order to protect his family during the noxian invasion, with it ending in tragedy and Varus giving up his humanity in exchange for the means to avenge his family, and changed it to a new story that is essentially Kayn with a plus one, only this Kayn and his plus one are gay. Wait, are we sure this isn't just literally exactly Kayn, but plus one?

The issue is not that Riot are trying to make Varus gay, although a new champion would be a much more respectful and interesting outlet for that anyway in my opinion, Hell, isn't Kayn Gay or Bi according to a few rioters? They could just make it official. The issue is that one of the few pieces of lore that captured this certain Family vs. Duty side of the classic revenge story, and was somewhat relatable and unique, (Plus it had a bit of a punisher vibe, which i am i sucker for the punisher and always have been) was tossed aside for two and a half men with the half being Rhaast #2 with a side of diversity. The new story is completely dis-interesting in my opinion.

42 Comments

Baron of BreadNov 30, 201720 votes

It isn't Kayn +1 because Kayn intentionally grabs a Darkin to gain power with the intent of controlling the Darkin inside, while Val was attempting to save his lover's life through a magical pool of water (and discovered it wasn't just a pool of water) only to end up with a power up and vengeance obsession. Not really similar stories at all, other than the end result being a battle for control, but one battle is force of wills (Kayn) and the other is love vs hate (Varus).

MontethePythonDec 1, 20172 votes

Love vs Hate/Revenge is still just a battle of wills, same as wth Kayn. It's a pretty similar concept of people a darkin is possessing's vs darkin, but that's still not the issue, the issue i take is that Riot threw away Varus's original lore for a discount kayn story, and how they just deleted varus's lore for the sake of diversity in a way that seems phoned in and disrespectful in my opinion, bland diversity for the sake of diversity is disrespectful to the LGBT community anyway in my personal opinion. And it holds a lot of similarities with Kayn's story, the origins might be different, in the end though it boils down to darkin vs man in a battle of wills for control, but instead of Kayn vs Rhaast as warriors it's some "power of love" vs "revenge" bullshit.

Baron of BreadDec 1, 20178 votes

I disagree with the case being a battle of wills. The way that the comic portrayed the conflict seemed more like the Darkin needed Val to give in to his hate in order for Varus to take complete control, which was prevented (for now) because Val values Kai's approval/thoughts/what-have-you on the topic of killing non-combatants enough to not go for that.

While Kayn has no moral dilemma with Rhaast, Kayn purely just wants to be able to control Rhaast and the power that grants him while Rhaast just wants to take over Kayn so he can go on his murder rampage.

I made no statement on my opinion on the lore change (on which I have mixed feelings), but I do think that calling the new lore Kayn+1 is disingenuous.

MontethePythonDec 1, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Baron of Bread,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=6nWekgaI,comment-id=000400000000,timestamp=2017-12-01T03:32:32.351+0000)

I disagree with the case being a battle of wills. The way that the comic portrayed the conflict seemed more like the Darkin needed Val to give in to his hate in order for Varus to take complete control, which was prevented (for now) because Val values Kai's approval/thoughts/what-have-you on the topic of killing non-combatants enough to not go for that.

While Kayn has no moral dilemma with Rhaast, Kayn purely just wants to be able to control Rhaast and the power that grants him while Rhaast just wants to take over Kayn so he can go on his murder rampage.

I made no statement on my opinion on the lore change (on which I have mixed feelings), but I do think that calling the new lore Kayn+1 is disingenuous.

Something doesn't need to be a moral dilemma to be a battle of wills, most battles of wills are not over a moral dilemma anyway. And yes, the details might be different, but in the bigger picture it's still just Darkin vs. People he is possessing, battle of the mind powers or wills, or however darkin and people fight it out in their minds, and that's all i see, the fact that i don't care that much about the details and how it pertains to who's will is driven by love or whatever and who's is driven by ambition and revenge is my own opinion.

However I can respect your opinion and how you care about the motivation of the new characters and how it drives them, but regardless it does drive them into a battle of wills against a darkin over their bodies in either story, and boils down to the same "Who will win the body of (insert person here)'s body? the will of people or darkin?" sort of outcome. While i can see the differences and the details clearly, when i look at it as a whole i see a very similar darkin story to kayn, intent or not, essentially making varus just another darkin story now. Calling it Kayn plus one was more of a moniker meant to portray how lazy i think the new story is, not that i thought they were exactly the same, even if they are a similar format.

Just something i've noticed, and were we given a comic more akin to varus's old lore then we would've seen what sort of motivations drove old varus and his care for his family vs his duty to his country, we would've had a more fleshed out portrayal of what i consider to be a far superior story and setting. My main criticism is not just that it boils down to another kayn story but with more lovey dovey shit, the idea is more that i hate how they've dumbed down varus's complex dilemma and motivations into simple, more selfish ones i can't relate to, (and not because they're gay) and essentially deleted a character for cheap disrespectful diversity.

OleandervineDec 1, 20178 votes

Old Varus didn't have a complex dilemma. His old story was about as common as it gets - Duty over Family, leading to Guilt, leading to Revenge. He was basically the Punished, Lucian, and pretty much every JRPG protagonist ever. His old lore had about as much depth as a kiddie pool, and the majority of it was pretty vague.

SanKakUDec 1, 20172 votes

I'm not sure if LGBT community cares about respect, for all we know some of them are in Riot writing the lore.

ForgottenLuckNov 30, 20178 votes

Man, the poll seems so wrong, whats wrong with liking the new lore? The old lore was bland and typical, and though this one offers a bit similarity with the Kayne one the thing that makes it different is HOW they plan to overcome the Darkin, Kayne believes he can overcome it and take control while in Varus lore they hope to defeat it and go back to who they were.

CatSithNov 30, 20176 votes

They didn't make Varus gay, they made him into a Dark kin. They just introduce two gay people who revived him and now are stuck with him.

0nyDec 1, 20172 votes

{quoted}

They didn't make Varus gay, they made him into a Dark kin. They just introduce two gay people who revived him and now are stuck with him.

I keep seeing people bring up this technicality like its an actual talking point. We know, we all checked out the new lore, that's why we are talking about it. When people talk about Varus they are talking about the champion as a whole.

CatSithDec 1, 20171 votes

Obviously you don't know if you still consider Varus as a whole is a gay champion just because the people who released him and trapped within him are.

HowPlayGAEMDec 1, 20175 votes

The gay couple isn't the problem.

Killing the hetersexual couple in favor of the gay couple IS

This is the standard MO of the LGBT movement and it's disappointing Riot has decided to go down this path. No RP purchases from me ever again.

RaxistaichoDec 1, 20174 votes

The worst part is all they HAD to do was find/replace the cursed pool with the Darkin Bow.

KloqdqDec 1, 20174 votes

My main issue is the 3 not becoming 1 but rather just 1 body with 3 minds fighting for control. Frankly it's pretty terrible the way it's laid out and it causes for some really confusing writing. During the whole comics and stories, not even Varus could be bothered to know which is which so the reader should get the impression to not care either. Plus, they all short of bleed into one another.

What i wish happened is instead of 2 fighting for control, instead of the human winning or darkin winning. What I wanted to happen was no one wins. Darkin and Human combine and become more a force of just pure vengeance. Like the two are fueling one another. Think like Hulk and Bruce and overtime the lines blur and Hulk and Bruce just become 1 whole new person. I wanted Varus and Human to become that. It is certainly a lot more interesting at least in my mind than 3 people that are hard to pick apart fighting for one body so it's just messy.

Personally, the old lore was very bog standard. It's just a super simple story that had already been developed to it's fullest. Varus in the old lore was gone and was never going to develop further because he can't. He gets revenge and his done. There is already other stories in league that do the same concept but have it more fleshed out in some regards. The problem with old Varus too is similar to the new lore, I just don't care about the ones lost. They gave me no reason to be invested other than telling me a sad story. This could have been fixed sure, and the old lore could have worked, but it wasn't much different from the new one.

Both are just lacking overall from my point of view and neither is better than the other.

ArbiterOfTruthDec 1, 20172 votes

I think you hit one of the big issues. Riot tried to make Valmar and Kai important, but they didn't give them any depth. They are hunters who love each and that is as deep as they get. For now they'll just be Varus's conscience and be voices that we get mixed up.

KloqdqDec 1, 20174 votes

It's a problem I think a lot of writers and Riot for sure has when creating stories. There is a lack of depth and investment in the characters that are lost along the way. A good example of how simple it can be to do this right is in John Wick.

In John Wick, when, spoilers I guess, the dog is killed. We as an audience are one part sad that the dog is dead because it is a cute dog, but we also are connected to the dog via John. To John, that dog is more like a connection to the last person he truly cared about and losing it makes his fail back to what he left for his wife just more sad. That dog is not just a tragic death because it's a death but because it's a part of John's own will to live, his own happiness, being crushed.

For Varus, Valmar and Kai are characters we are framed to care about, but we were not given enough emotional weight to care about either. Really both are dying, but there just isn't enough there to make the threat of death feel real nor dire. This same concept falls into Old Varus as well where the death of Varus's family and village is just a tragic event and what happened to him was tragic. However, I wasn't given that deep level of connection to really feel for these characters.

When someone dies you'll feel bad about it likely. But when someone close to you dies, you may just cry. That's how we should feel when the story is framing us, the audience, in the shoe of the main perspective character. I should feel bad for these characters but I don't have the connection to care. There was nothing established. Maybe if we got a colour story for Valmar and Kai, to get attached to them, than get the Varus lore, than I honestly believe it would have been a fantastic reveal. However, because of the framing it was given, it fell really flat, and lacks the punch it need to work.

I want to like this story more than I do but I just struggle to find it with what we were given.

ÇhåryzårdDec 1, 20173 votes

Varus himself is not gay, why do people think this.

In the new lore, Varus is a darkin. He uses the 2 gay hunters that unlock his tomb to create a single body for his essence to physically exist in.

The hunters were gay, and the hunters no longer exist. Varus himself is a darkin that used the 2 hunters to create a new, single body for himself.

MontethePythonDec 1, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Varus himself is not gay, why do people think this.

In the new lore, Varus is a darkin. He uses the 2 gay hunters that unlock his tomb to create a single body for his essence to physically exist in.

The hunters were gay, and the hunters no longer exist. Varus himself is a darkin that used the 2 hunters to create a new, single body for himself.

No-one thinks that, and that's not relevant. The champion as it stands now is 3 people, apparently, 2 of whom are gay, but the entity and the champion itself is called Varus regardless. Noone would call it Varus and Valmar and Kai when referring to the entity they are now, or the champion, and i won't either. Thanks for not contributing anything to conversation though.

ÇhåryzårdDec 1, 20176 votes

{quoted}

No-one thinks that, and that's not relevant. The champion as it stands now is 3 people, apparently, 2 of whom are gay, but the entity and the champion itself is called Varus regardless. Noone would call it Varus and Valmar and Kai when referring to the entity they are now, or the champion, and i won't either. Thanks for not contributing anything to conversation though.

A lot of people think this from all the comments I'm reading on different threads because to a lot of people they don't realize that Varus isn't a human being anymore.

Thanks for contributing to the boards with the same post that's already been posted 5 other times.

MontethePythonDec 1, 20173 votes

{quoted}

A lot of people think this from all the comments I'm reading on different threads because to a lot of people they don't realize that Varus isn't a human being anymore.

Thanks for contributing to the boards with the same post that's already been posted 5 other times.

Others sharing my concerns and opinions doesn't diminish the validity of my opinions, if anything it supports it, and he's a completely new entity now, yes, but he's still made up of 2 gay men, and riot is making a big deal of that fact because they want praise for shoehorning in diversity or some crap, as a champion he is now essentially 2/3 Gay, feels weird to say that like i'm talking about a nationality lol. That's not my issue though if you notice, i just think the new story was lazy, as was the attempt at diversity, it would feel almost as lazy and disrespectful as well in my opinion, but if they used the old lore and made varus gay anyway and have a husband and son instead of wife and son i'd be far happier with the lore. And yeah, a Gay champion is overdue probably, but this seems like a misplaced, phoned in, and disrespectful way to do it in my opinion.

GreenLoreNov 30, 20172 votes

Overall I feel like none of the 2 is better than the other.

The new one gives some insights about the darkin and actually gives us a personality to the corruption(and in general it is more detailed).

However the old one also had a lot of interesting aspects,despite revenge stories being fairly mainstream(also I kinda hoped that lee sin actually destroyed the village of Varus by accident,that would have been a really dark and interesting plot twist in my opinion).

Kerrigan 4 PrezDec 1, 20172 votes

I voted for the old lore solely because of how you worded the question. I care little about his quest for revenge, in terms of characters I actually enjoy the new lore more, even accounting for the extra detail they added. But I loved the setting to the story, a lose-lose situation that would test what he valued more, his friends and family or the whole of Ionia. He made the logical choice and then he had to pay for it, as good a story as I've heard. But I think going forward the new lore will be better, it will allow for more flexibility in who he can interact with outside of Riven and maybe Swain.

MontethePythonDec 1, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kerrigan 4 Prez,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=6nWekgaI,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-12-01T02:05:34.499+0000)

I voted for the old lore solely because of how you worded the question. I care little about his quest for revenge, in terms of characters I actually enjoy the new lore more, even accounting for the extra detail they added. But I loved the setting to the story, a lose-lose situation that would test what he valued more, his friends and family or the whole of Ionia. He made the logical choice and then he had to pay for it, as good a story as I've heard. But I think going forward the new lore will be better, it will allow for more flexibility in who he can interact with outside of Riven and maybe Swain.

Exactly, the setting was much better, and the story more resonating with most people. I feel like it'd be nice to have that story written in the new format with the short stories and comics riot is making, then it could well be more enjoyable, and more detailed to compliment the story. I feel like there was a lot to expand and elaborate on in the old lore, but now that's kinda taken from us. I hope so, this one felt lazy and phoned in.

CamulosDec 1, 20172 votes

Problem is, there is another, far more popular champion which has almost exactly the same backstory... Yasuo Yasuo.

Ionian
Meant to guard a temple and it's contents
Wants to run down to the battlefield instead
Loses someone important to them because of their choices
Travels the world in search of Justice/Vengeance

Only difference is that Yas ran down and abandoned his post, saving his family but costing him the Elder; Varus guarded the corruption but it cost him his family. Yeah, I know Varus came first, but there was no way they were going to retcon Yas.

MontethePythonDec 1, 201711 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Silver Tongue,realm=OCE,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=6nWekgaI,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2017-12-01T04:43:04.854+0000)

Problem is, there is another, far more popular champion which has almost exactly the same backstory... Yasuo.

Ionian

Meant to guard a temple and it's contents

Wants to run down to the battlefield instead

Loses someone important to them because of their choices

Travels the world in search of Justice/Vengeance

Only difference is that Yas ran down and abandoned his post, saving his family but costing him the Elder; Varus guarded the corruption but it cost him his family. Yeah, I know Varus came first, but there was no way they were going to retcon Yas.

Yasuo and varus's only similarities are that they were guarding their posts, and thought to abandon them for battle, and are vengeful ionians. Yasuo had no family but his brother, who was also a warrior. He didn't fear for his brothers safety either, nor did he save anyone important in his lore. Yasuo wanted to leave the elder he was guarding out of ambition, and to join his fellows on the field of battle and fight noxians instead of guarding someone important. Then he was accused of murder and ran away, killing his own brother in the process. Now he looks for the true killer.

Old Varus was guarding a weapon of mass destruction essentially, when he heard noxus was at his regions doorstep. He has to choose, between abandoning his post and dishonoring himself, possibly costing the lives of hundreds as well, but saving his family, or staying his duty to his country as a soldier, possibly saving hundreds from what would happen if noxus got the weapon. In the end he chose his country and his family was killed. When he didn't get word from the outside he finally went to check on the village and found his butchered family, he lost himself and went crazy punisher mode with revenge. He took the weapon from the pool essentially (it's a little different than that) and gave up his humanity to avenge his family who were slaughtered. He didn't leave the temple in it's time of need and instead stood his ground during the battle, which is why his family were long dead when he arrived.

Varus was a soldier and a loyal one, who loved his family and was complex and reasonable. Yasuo is an arrogant asshole who wanted to fight in a big glorious battle and be the center of attention with his great skill, and he got punished for it. Even if they didn't think he killed the elder it heavily insinuated he would have been executed or harshly punished anyway for abandoning his post. The stories are kinda different, maybe if yasuo's family died while he kept his post and then he wielded the forbidden elder like a weapon which took his humanity away in order to avenge his nonexistent family they'd be the same. That is certainly not the only difference. However that would be kinda hilarious and badass if that was yasuo's story and he just beat people to death with some old dude because he lost his family.

TLDR: The stories are different enough in structure outside of ionia, guard duty, and revenge being core ideas that it doesn't merit a retcon, and i highly doubt yasuo was the reason for the story change, a phoned in and disrespectful attempt at diversity for praise was the reason.

CrazedPorcupineDec 1, 20172 votes

Personally, I like the new lore more for how much it reveals about Ionian culture, along with Darkin History alongside everything else, along with the truest form of "Love vs Hate" conflict.

DengedenDec 1, 20172 votes

I'm not sure if I missed any of the old Varus's personal but this Varus is also torn between his desire for revenge and family. He (or they, depending on how you look at it) was also consumed by demonic energies to save someone he loves.

MontethePythonDec 1, 20175 votes

{quoted}

I'm not sure if I missed any of the old Varus's personal but this Varus is also torn between his desire for revenge and family. He (or they, depending on how you look at it) was also consumed by demonic energies to save someone he loves.

Original Varus was never torn between desire for revenge and his family, i never stated as much, he was torn between his duty as a soldier to his country, and saving lives, and abandoning his post and keeping his family safe. He chose his duty to his country and when he saw his family's butchered remains after the battle he couldn't take it and was consumed with revenge, the new story doesn't have similar themes to that really. Varus's desire for revenge came from his family and their demise, they are intertwined, he couldn't be torn between them, and the new one is some care bears bullshit power of love vs evil garbage. I can respect your opinion of liking the new lore, but they are not similar and the new one feels shoehorned in, as well as lazy and disrespectful to me.

DengedenDec 1, 20171 votes

He could actually. He'd slowly lose his humanity to the point where he'd forget why he was killing in the first place. Torn between might be the wrong choice of words admittedly.

And ... every Ionion character has been torn between duty and personal desires or suffered because of them, which is a tad stereotypical.

Sure, the problem with the new lore will always be that people have spent years developing headcanons based on the sparse info we used to have ... regardless of how in-depth it actually was.

The good vs evil concept, yep, it's bad. They do try to introduce some moral ambiguity to it, to be fair.

Dorans PantsDec 1, 20172 votes

{quoted}

some care bears bullshit power of love vs evil garbage.

made my day [sg-ezreal]

LiL Bunnie FuFuuDec 1, 20172 votes

I like gay. I don't like awful writing (heartlight anyone???)

KairoptraDec 1, 20172 votes

You’re the one who’s flanderizing Varus, not Riot.

No, this is not Kayn, and let me tell you why. Yes, they both involve Darkin, but that’s about where the similarities end. Kayn made his deal because of his ambition and his lust for power. He wants to use Rhaast’s power to one day succeed Zed and lead Ionia into a new age. Val and Kai are lovers who became tangled in a dangerous deal. Val just wanted to save Kai, no matter the cost, and now must resist the alien urges of vengeance Varus imposes on him. Kai just wanted to pass peacefully, but was dragged into this mess by the one he loves. He now must work with Val to find some way to undo it. As you can see, they are two very different stories that happen to both involve Darkin. The way work together isn’t even the same. Kayn wields Rhaast as Rhaast slowly corrupts him. Varus tore apart Val and Kai’s very flesh to create a new body. Now they fight for control and occasionally one is able to wrest control, but for the most part it’s Varus.

DreamspitterDec 1, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Although it feels a little shoehorned in, and riot could have made a much more fleshed out and interesting Gay champion, that part is not really the issue.

The issue is that they took the relatively fleshed out and interesting story of Varus's old lore, which involved Varus being torn between his duty as a soldier and his true desire to abandon his post in order to protect his family during the noxian invasion, with it ending in tragedy and Varus giving up his humanity in exchange for the means to avenge his family, and changed it to a new story that is essentially Kayn with a plus one, only this Kayn and his plus one are gay. Wait, are we sure this isn't just literally exactly Kayn, but plus one?

Valmar and Kai != Kayn. They are not the same.

RosaEliaDec 1, 20171 votes

Personally I like the story of the new Varus, but I prefer the old Varus though. The old Varus that lost everything to the filthy Noxian invaders, his wife, kid, friends, and home. It truly made Varus more tragic and corrupted with vengeance. In new Varus' lore he isn't even the man anymore, but that's not that big of a deal for me, and he only lost his heartlight. Technically Kai didn't even die they just pulled a Dragon Ball fusion and became a 3 in 1 coffee. His mother and village remained during the failed invasion and in my opinion that's where all the tragedy is lost. Old Varus didn't have a place to even call home anymore after the attack, but new Varus can come back to his home in Pallas.

Hovering HentaiDec 1, 20171 votes

Is Kayn confirmed to be gay/bi and in love with Zed? I honestly thought that was just fan theory

MontethePythonDec 2, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Striking Venom,realm=EUW,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=6nWekgaI,comment-id=0010,timestamp=2017-12-01T14:33:10.541+0000)

Is Kayn confirmed to be gay/bi and in love with Zed? I honestly thought that was just fan theory

It's not exactly canon but a rioter did actually say Kayn had a crush on Zed, unfortunately for Kayn, Zed is shadow sexual though. Zed :Embrace the Shadow

ArkhanDec 1, 20171 votes

The problem with this is, people who dislike something are far louder than people who enjoy it.

I love the new lore. And I'm glad they changed it to something more unique.

SyneidesisDec 1, 20171 votes

How much more can you get fleshed out when you have to address three individuals in one lore when they have the standard bio and color story, plus 2 comics and a music video

RaoulDec 1, 20171 votes

But the new lore is PC, that means its better, no?

HalcyonDwellerDec 2, 20171 votes

I think I prefer the new lore, but I think that Riot could have done more to preserve that duty vs family part of the old lore. The fact that he knowingly freed the darkness was super core to Varus in my opinion and should not have been stripped away to be replaced with a random villager who just didn't know what he was getting himself and his loved one into.

VekknaDec 2, 20171 votes

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

AQA473Dec 1, 2017

I loved old Varus, but in a, "Aw, I feel so bad for him," sort of way. Thing is, Varus's family was fridged so he could go darkside and corrupt himself for revenge. I'm so sick of stories where the family dies because broody emotions. Like someone was saying, every JRPG protagonist ever, and a good number of western protagonists, too. My favorite part of new Varus is that Val's family is still alive. That part delighted me to no end. I've seen it before (though I can't quite recall where), but I love the dynamic of having a bunch of people sharing a single body. It's interesting, too, because it's essentially a rage-driven demon with two very moral humans who are in love with each other. They understand Varus because they've heard of him and know that he's evil. Varus thinks he knows Val and Kai because he just makes assumptions about humans and thinks he's right. While Varus as more control of their form than the two humans, it's clear that he's a fish out of water and that's great to see with an all-powerful demon guy. I don't think Varus is going to change, but Kai and Val will really give him a run for his money in terms of coming out on top in the battle for control. I think the new lore is a vast improvement, even after reading all of your comments. Honestly, you just sound bitter.