Why League of Legends ERASED its own story

Noies··27 votes·11,484 views

I think its pretty tragic that the games lore is pretty much ruined for a lot of people because they

  1. made a poor story to start with
  2. decided to scrap the story that people who cared about the lore of the game already knew and were invested in. (seriously wtf)

Even if the writing staff for Riot is good at coming up with a 'replacement lore' for everything they deleted, none of what they produce will ever be cared about by the vast majority of the fan base. It will simply piss off the people who cared about the lore before, and those who didn't care about the lore are just going to be confused by the conflicting story.

I play a lot of RPG games and read a lot, I like stories. But the butchery that they've made of league's previous lore just pisses me off.

147 Comments

Terozu13 votes

I mean. Most of the fanbase loves the new lore and like the most praised part of tge game with a few exceptions.

Warlord Dienekes12 votes

Honestly, I don't think "most of the fanbase" cares about the lore at all. I don't have numbers of course, but among my group I'm the only one who reads it. And that's not necessarily a good thing.

Noies5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Warlord Dienekes,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=2FHdjGUr,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2018-09-11T03:01:49.736+0000)

Honestly, I don't think "most of the fanbase" cares about the lore at all. I don't have numbers of course, but among my group I'm the only one who reads it. And that's not necessarily a good thing.

Yeah that's pretty accurate, I know my friends gave up back in 2014. I was hopeful that they could make a cohesive story for the game and characters I loved. instead now varus is a dragoon or whatever the fuck, and janna is "wind spirit" whatever the fuck that means.

Terozu4 votes

Janna has literally been a wind spirit since 2011.

And Varus is a Darkin who after waking up is now fused with 2 hosts.

Sailor V3nus4 votes

{quoted}

Janna has literally been a wind spirit since 2011.

And Varus is a Darkin who after waking up is now fused with 2 hosts.

I thought janna was an orphan until pretty recently...

and varus was just some weird archer dude in ionia.

Terozu3 votes

No she was a powerful sorceress and maybe an Orphan back when she was released, but when she was updated in 2011 they retconned her into a wind spirit.

Now they have expanded on it saying she is prayed to by sailors and Zaunnites.

Also her physical form is the bird that floats around her.

Noies5 votes

{quoted}

No she was a powerful sorceress and maybe an Orphan back when she was released, but when she was updated in 2011 they retconned her into a wind spirit.

Now they have expanded on it saying she is prayed to by sailors and Zaunnites.

Also her physical form is the bird that floats around her.

Nope that happened in 2016-2017. I remember, it pissed me off.

edit: in fact look at this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=galJIDvQbSc or this: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/r4Hwv4dA-janna-complete-lore-overhaul-eh or this: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/story-art/HbeQrw9h-why-was-jannas-lore-changed-so-much

Terozu3 votes

No that was the expansion on her lore when we find out that both bilgewater people and Zaunites worship her that was not when she became a spirit.

Sailor V3nus5 votes

{quoted}

No that was the expansion on her lore when we find out that both bilgewater people and Zaunites worship her that was not when she became a spirit.

I'm pretty sure that was when the removed the part about her being supernaturally gifted human, and where they removed the part about her being a zaun orphan that cared about her city despite how garbage it was. Also the fact that none of us can really agree on this kind of proves the point that there is a rather big problem with the lore of the game and what they did to it.

OutCastXRE4 votes

Janna was an thief until early 2016. She was human I'm pretty sure. just magically gifted.

Terozu10 votes

Im referring to the lore fanbase.

Among those who read the lore the changes are widely praised as good amd more cohesive.

Warlord Dienekes5 votes

Fair enough. Though, I am a bit curious about numbers, because I usually like that sort of data on things. I still remember the Varus rewrite, which was not so universally adored.

Or the Targon rewrite, which basically split the board in two when it first happened. And some folks still bring up how much they hate it (mostly me, but a few others pop up as well).

Terozu3 votes

Actually, they managed to pacify the people complaining about Varus.

Simply put the old lore is canon in almost every way, with two major exceptions, he was a Shuriman not an Ionian, I stead of taking the pit of Pallas' power he became an ascended, fell into darkin hood, and then the new lore happened. And since old Varus lore now still exists, him regretting not saving his family and going crazy for it, the people complaining about them removing it with no justification were pacified.

I'm not sure what Targon rewrite you're referring to? Could you elaborate?

Roaring Light4 votes

{quoted}

Actually, they managed to pacify the people complaining about Varus.

Simply put the old lore is canon in almost every way, with two major exceptions, he was a Shuriman not an Ionian, I stead of taking the pit of Pallas' power he became an ascended, fell into darkin hood, and then the new lore happened. And since old Varus lore now still exists, him regretting not saving his family and going crazy for it, the people complaining about them removing it with no justification were pacified.

I'm not sure what Targon rewrite you're referring to? Could you elaborate?

Its sad that they're at a state where they're "just pacifying" people who are upset with the direction the story is taking instead of telling a story people are happy with.

RiotBioluminescence9 votes

I watched this video this morning - pretty grim viewing :/ Folks here (and the OP, Noies) seem to be be the kind of players who have thought about this deeply - what do you all suggest for the future?

Of course, we cannot change the past, and flip-flopping back would likely be the worst of all possible worlds. What do folks here think would be the best path ahead?

I know this will probably turn into a "Yeah but I want to talk about how bad the past was!" discussion, but there is literally no time machine available (not even for poor Zilean or Ekko) - so what's your solution-orientated future? If you just want to rant at someone at Riot, I'm happy to take that on the chin though :)

[galio-happy]

Totally cool if you don't have suggestions - it's not incumbent on you to do so, after all, but I wanted to hear from folks who might have opinions and want to share them.

Noies7 votes

{quoted}

I watched this video this morning - pretty grim viewing :/ Folks here (and the OP, Noies) seem to be be the kind of players who have thought about this deeply - what do you all suggest for the future?

Of course, we cannot change the past, and flip-flopping back would likely be the worst of all possible worlds. What do folks here think would be the best path ahead?

I know this will probably turn into a "Yeah but I want to talk about how bad the past was!" discussion, but there is literally no time machine available (not even for poor Zilean or Ekko) - so what's your solution-orientated future? If you just want to rant at someone at Riot, I'm happy to take that on the chin though :)

[galio-happy]

Totally cool if you don't have suggestions - it's not incumbent on you to do so, after all, but I wanted to hear from folks who might have opinions and want to share them.

I think that something that needs to be in the lore is the institute of war. It was the all consuming fixture of the old lore, and even though it was retconned long ago it remains one of the most well known and iconic parts of leagues lore. Its something a lot of people remember. It could just be as " a shifty background organization" or some other form, but the name "Institute of War" should be in the lore somewhere. I think it would help bridge the gap for the people who read the old lore.

I also think that the core identity of champions who are well established already should not be changed because they didn't fit this or that characteristic of the place they resided in. Janna for example was changed to being a wind spirit "because it didn't make any sense for some random wind mage to be in zaun, she didn't fit their theme of being 'Highly industrious'". You can't revert the stuff you change, but you could at least not change the core identity of an old, established character just so that it conforms to what you would expect a region/ city to have.

And maybe if things stopped getting changed and reworked in the lore.... we might get some kind of "Story progression EVENT" instead of just static lore updates. like instead of riven versus yasuo, and garen vs darius being a "skin event" where they don't really reference any lore even though these four characters have beef with each other, we could get something with the lore a bit more at the forefront.

RyzeTheSmurfMage3 votes

There would have been no tension with the Institute of War there. Ryze's quest would be pointless, Noxus, Demacia and Shurima armies would be pointless, etc.

RiotBioluminescence5 votes

I think folks are misreading your reply. Sorry - I'll pop an upvote on there to try to counter it.

Your first suggestion is to try to reuse the name "Institute of War" somewhere in the lore - even if it's not the INSTITUTE OF WAR of old. So, instead of it being an international peace-keeping force of super powerful mages, it could be a secret society - or at the very worst case, a notorious fight club/bar somewhere :)

Do you feel that having the name (which, as you say, has a lot of recognition for the old guard) back in the lore BUT NOT MEAN THE SAME THING would be a good thing that would be a nice nod to the past, or would it be a point of confusion that felt like disrespecting the attachment players had to the old, retconned, lore?

I fear that it could go either way, and that seems like a big risk. How would you go about it?

Whyte Lyon7 votes

I dont think that would be as good an idea as it sounds. I would assume such a thing wouldn't end up satisfying anyone.

Suddenly and involuntarily the IoW has come back into canon. After all the effort to exclude it, you've pushed it back in. Despite how infeasible it would be to transfer without some significant revisions to its original concept. So if its not really the same except by name, then what was the point of going to all that effort to have the IoW, but its not the IoW, back?

Zapzya2 votes

Only suggestion I have would be to speed up the reworks so you can start progressing the story. Perhaps don't wait for champions to be updated in game (or a related champion to be updated) before updating them. If you can't write them fast enough, hire more writers? You could just find a story which definitely won't include non-updated champions and progress those instead. I don't know how viable those suggestions are. Lore updates have been more frequent recently I think, which is good.

I think the only way forward is to make the lore you currently have as good as it can be. People will always miss the old lore, you just have to make them love the new one. The easiest way to do that (IMO) is to make it feel less static, which can only be done through finishing the reworks asap (without sacrificing quality), or finishing them in segments and moving those segments ahead, then coming back and doing the others later. Pretty rough scenarios either way.

RiotBioluminescence5 votes

{quoted}

Only suggestion I have would be to speed up the reworks so you can start progressing the story. Perhaps don't wait for champions to be updated in game (or a related champion to be updated) before updating them. If you can't write them fast enough, hire more writers? You could just find a story which definitely won't include non-updated champions and progress those instead. I don't know how viable those suggestions are. Lore updates have been more frequent recently I think, which is good.

I think the only way forward is to make the lore you currently have as good as it can be. People will always miss the old lore, you just have to make them love the new one. The easiest way to do that (IMO) is to make it feel less static, which can only be done through finishing the reworks asap (without sacrificing quality), or finishing them in segments and moving those segments ahead, then coming back and doing the others later. Pretty rough scenarios either way.

There used to be (several desk moves ago) a big printout on the wall near my desk that had all the champ icons on it, with big round stickers placed over them if they had been brought up to date. It was a really good, visual, indication of how far there was yet to go. I know that Scathlocke led the charge to get all the short bios updated a while ago (which is good) but I don't think any of us thinks that's sufficient.

I might see about getting a new printout and some stickers. Good to have it in line of sight all the time.

Don't quite follow your second paragraph there - could you explain? Finishing in segments and moving those segments ahead? Do you mean progressing stories for bundles of updated characters, leaving some out in the cold in the near future? Ah, I think I've got it - you're saying the two roads we have ahead of us are either to update everyone ASAP, which leaves everyone at chapter 1, OR to get our chapter 2s and 3s etc. going to give a sense of life and consequence into the world again, with the downside being that this would slow down getting the other updates started.

Bit of a devil's bargain, I agree. I suspect the plan is to do both, slowly. :/ Some groups of champs have had movement and progression, while we're still updating groups of outdated champs as we do region update bundles. I believe there are plans afoot to bring more meaty progression to some small groups of champs, AND other, separate, efforts to get bigger batches of updates in progress. 'Course, all the plans in the world don't mean squat until they ship, so yeah.

TL;DR - Yes, good idea. I think we're going to try both. Hopefully that's not the worst of all worlds!

Zapzya5 votes

Also, have you considered marking champions on the Universe as "to be reworked"? A lot of the time I see "why bother reading when it could change at any time?" If people knew what was getting reworked and what wasn't, this kind of solves that problem. If you have, are there a few specific reasons you haven't done this?

RiotBioluminescence2 votes

{quoted}

Also, have you considered marking champions on the Universe as "to be reworked"? A lot of the time I see "why bother reading when it could change at any time?" If people knew what was getting reworked and what wasn't, this kind of solves that problem. If you have, are there a few specific reasons you haven't done this?

I personally haven't thought of doing that. Possible that other folks have, and have reasons why it wasn't something we did. I'll ask around tomorrow and see. How do you imagine that would be shown in, hopefully, a way that didn't look really janky?

Zapzya1 votes

In the little paragraph of text on their character page on the universe, a little piece of italicised text that says "bio to be updated" maybe? You could also put a sticker beside it if you wanted a clearer but more visibly obtrusive alternative.

Disclaimer: I have no previous background in graphic design.

RiotBioluminescence2 votes

{quoted}

In the little paragraph of text on their character page on the universe, a little piece of italicised text that says "bio to be updated" maybe? You could also put a sticker beside it if you wanted a clearer but more visibly obtrusive alternative.

Maybe "More to come"? I hesitate to use the dreaded Soon™ because nothing but hate and gnashing of teeth (from both sides) come from that.

RyzeTheSmurfMage1 votes

But wouldn't more stories come for all the champions in the future, near or distant? Saying something like "To be changed/updated" is more fitting imo.

RiotBioluminescence2 votes

That's fair, yeah. Everything should hopefully get more content at some point in the future.

Something, then, to suggest that the short bio isn't a full, real, bio and will have an entirely different document supplant it. "To be updated" seems the least controversial suggestion so far. Like I said, I'll ask around to see if it's been an idea discussed before.

The Iceborn1 votes

{quoted}

Maybe "More to come"? I hesitate to use the dreaded Soon™ because nothing but hate and gnashing of teeth (from both sides) come from that.

Id like to chime in while youre at it... The thing with the lore is this: You guys rewrite it many times to a degree where the lore is turned a 180.. Which is fine... And sometimes you rewrite the lore but not too much(Lissandra) the PROBLEM tho is that yoir writer,whoever wrote her story, is a poor writer and people were pissed because the new bio itself was good but the writing was incredibly poor and confusing! Thus making people believe that you made Lissandra good and you deleted her character! I think that theough Nunus stories, Lissandras evilness was clarified but her Bio is so poorly written @Bioluminescence it makes me cringe-.- Go to Reddit/LissMains they will tell you the same if you look back to when her Bio was updated....

RiotBioluminescence2 votes

I replied to a similar initial concern in a response to Oleandervine so I hope you'll forgive me not repeating it here. Your second point, is a lot more delicate/painful.

Even if we decide to talk in the abstract - and not specifically mention any piece of writing or writer - the question can be worded more like "What do we do if we release a piece of badly written lore?". Now obviously, we really hope that we WON'T release something bad - but there should still be processes in place to deal with such an event, should it happen.

I don't know what those processes are. (I'm not actually an official member of the Narrative discipline - just a friend.) I might try asking, but please don't hold your breath for a response. It's possible that there won't be one that I can share. I'm going to see if I can find out though.

I see it as like "What if your backups fail?", or "What if your password gets hacked?" kind of question. In an ideal world those things would never happen - and there are processes in place to ensure that it doesn't happen... but a suitably paranoid (and thus, worthwhile) IT department would have plans for what to do if it did.

RiotBioluminescence3 votes

To circle back (ha! buzzwords) on this, I checked in with Laurie/Scathlocke on this today, and apparently it IS something that's being discussed. The plan, I hear, would be to see about adding the little fist-wrench/spanner symbol that we sometimes use to show that something is a work in progress. Apparently the idea was floated a little while ago, but he's going to prod people again to get some movement on it. I suspect it fell through the cracks with other things going on.

So yay! Great minds think alike, or something :D

Valor Bot1 votes

Any chance you could share this list with us once it’s been updated, Bio? There are some champions who are in a weird place at the moment where their lore has been brought up to date with the modern world but they’re still on the list for major VGUs in the future, which could potentially alter their themes in big ways and therefore their narratives and place in the story. As a result, it’s a bit unclear whether their lore is here to stay or if it will get changed again — Quinn, Skarner, Mordekaiser, and Shyvana are all good examples of this.

RiotBioluminescence2 votes

I was just going to start with the champs that are yet to be properly updated (folks who only have short bios - like my main, Sona) and then check to see what's on the docket for major updates, etc. If I uncovered information not yet player facing, it wouldn't really be my place to make it player facing :( It's possible that it would reveal (or suggest!) future update plans that we've not talked about yet.

So, I don't know. :/

DeathBurst1 votes

Yay, Sona main \o/ Excited about the new Odyssey skin?

EDIT: sad about the poster with sticker, though :s That would be cool, if we could see it.

RiotBioluminescence2 votes

{quoted}

Yay, Sona main \o/ Excited about the new Odyssey skin?

EDIT: sad about the poster with sticker, though :s That would be cool, if we could see it.

Somewhat excited! I think the skin is pretty cool, but the lore behind her in the Odyssey universe is what's got me properly excited. Been trying to catch up with it (reading the Universe site, and story, etc.) but today's been kinda busy :)

Furious Delisha2 votes

Please create a great game

RiotBioluminescence5 votes

[{quoted}](name=Furious Delisha,realm=NA,application-id=6kFXY1kR,discussion-id=2FHdjGUr,comment-id=00050005,timestamp=2018-09-11T05:13:14.798+0000)

Please create a great game

Well there's a lot to unpack there.

  • Do you mean create a great NEW game as a method of conveying story?
  • Do you mean that League is not a great game, and you're telling me to stop worrying about the lore and go balance someone? (You don't want this, trust me. I'm not the crunchiest of designers.)
  • Do you mean that you think League is a great game, and you want folks to continue with what they're doing? (Not sure how that would be relevant to the topic, but it's a nice thought.)
Nylisa5 votes

I might be speaking out of context here but,i do not think Story of every champion or even non champions, needs to be tied to a bigger plot (Void, Demacia vs Noxus war, Darkin, aspects etc..) to find consistency and meaning. it is understandable that these sort of event affects each person in a different way. but i loved it more when some champions had their own thing instead of being involved with yet another apocalyptic massive scale story.

Right now i fear when champions like Sejuani and Ashe get updates, it becomes all about watchers and void instead of leaders of a Civil war. if Caitlyn and Vi get story update, it becomes all about Noxus trying to invade their country instead of two law enforcement units trying to keep the peace. Sona is another example, i waited for years to see her relationship with her mother explored and her position in Demacia explained. but if we going to see her involved in more world Rune related events or Noxus invasions...i don't know how i would feel about that.

I'm not saying its going to be bad you guys often surprise me but i think i made my point.

RiotBioluminescence5 votes

{quoted}

I might be speaking out of context here but,i do not think Story of every champion or even non champions, needs to be tied to a bigger plot (Void, Demacia vs Noxus war, Darkin, aspects etc..) to find consistency and meaning. it is understandable that these sort of event affects each person in a different way. but i loved it more when some champions had their own thing instead of being involved with yet another apocalyptic massive scale story.

Right now i fear when champions like Sejuani and Ashe get updates, it becomes all about watchers and void, if Caitlyn and Vi get story update it becomes all about war with Noxus. sometimes it would be lovely to see the struggles of a champion as a person not as a member of a invaded country. Sona is another example, i waited for years to see her relationship with her mother explored and her position in Demacia explained. but if we going to see her involved in more world Rune related events or Noxus invasions...i don't know how i would feel about that.

I'm not saying its going to be bad i might be surprised but i think i made my point.

So an example of good, currently, to you would be Ekko perhaps? Definitely stories with consequences and stakes, but not world ending stakes.

Nylisa6 votes

Yes that is a very good example. Annie is another example as well. She had a moving story, personally i praise it for being one of the best stories written in past couple of years. and it was all about Annie!

Oleandervine10 votes

I have some things I feel like could happen - Mostly, it feels sometimes like the lore is made up as you come to it. It doesn't feel like there's a grander vision or goal here, and when writing a story, you need that goal. The lore has to be treated somewhat like a giant novel - all the pieces have to work cohesively to create a story.

For instance, one of my hot button points this year was how the Darkin were treated. I adored the idea of them being some foreign invading species, because it explained a lot about things while simultaneously leaving them a bit mysterious. Them being such an unknown species explained why the residents of Runeterra couldn't defeat them and why they had to resort to trapping them - and then their unknown nature led to another surprise the people didn't expect - the Darkin could possess people if they came in contact with them after they were entrapped. So just not knowing what they were allowed for them to break reality as the people of the world know it, and created some great story telling elements that didn't have to rely on the established understanding of the world. It also explained their new and "forbidden" magic, the blood magic, as clearly this magic was something that the people of the world hadn't experienced before and it's understandable that it'd be taught to them by outsiders. It also made infinitely more sense WHY the Darkin would be royally pissed and alone when they were trapped and shut off from their home world forever, and it also was interesting in that them being outside invaders gave the world more enemies to deal with who weren't Void related, yet still a massive threat. That whole story, and the untold stories that could have been built around it, got retconned away less than a year later, and replaced with something that I felt was far more inferior and trite, and committed a pretty bad narrative fallacy of looping everything in on itself and tying up neat little bows by over explaining things, and also making everyone "once upon a human being." Making the Darkin fallen ascended, while also trying to explain why they operated in the way they do as being former humans, and explaining their blood magic just felt contrived and forced, like they had all these concepts they had to make work within the new scope.

Then there's the more recent Lissandra bio with Nunu's release. It was a HOT HOT mess, and confusing as hell, and it left huge, key elements of her personality out of her own bio. It was not nearly as understandable or concise as her former bio and also erased her motives and plans, which pretty much defined her as a character. This felt incredibly rushed, and while I understand there is more lore coming, the fact that the lore we got was chaotic and incomplete, when it's supposed to be a concise bio of a character, is inexcusable. Bios shouldn't be half completed synopses. They're supposed to be bite size explanations of characters to give us a quick idea of them, not deliberately left with gaping plot holes so you can fill them later with something sensational. You can do that kind of thing with stories and lore events in game, but not with character bios.

And then there's Karma. Her original bio update around Irelia's era was a disaster. It wasn't Karma. I'm not going to pretend to know why the decision was made to rewrite her entirely like that when it didn't coincide AT ALL with the character. It got updated with Akali, and came more in line with who she was originally, but in my eyes, the Irelia-era lore update shouldn't have happened at all. In this scenario, and similarly the Lissandra bio update, it really feels like the lore team doesn't know the characters they're writing for. It feels like they've never played them, they've never read their old bios and lore information, it feels like they don't know how they interact with other characters in the game. This is a problem when you're trying to refine an existing character to fit in the new world. It's entirely possible to update these characters to fit without dramatically overhauling with something insane and sensational - and to an extent, I feel like this is probably the meat of the issue. There's a lot of sensationalizing going on to make characters FLASH and PIZAZZ when updating their bios - but oftentimes, simplest is best. Not all updates need be reinvented with insane new elements - did Karma really need to be the gestalt spirit soup of Ionian Nirvana? The answer is no, she didn't, that element that was added to her didn't add much of anything to her character and originally detracted so hard from her character that it turned her into someone else. If they had merely folded Karma as we have known her for years into the new lore, that would have been that. Everyone would have been content, because we still get to have the Karma we love. This can be equated to bringing a book to the silver screen. Let's use Harry Potter as an example. We loved the books and the characters therein, so when they came to the movies, we were stoked. But rather than reinvent Harry to now be something like the mystical godchild borne to the most powerful witch in existence and the most powerful wizard in the world in efforts to make him more of the "chosen one," Rowling stuck to her story - his parents are plain people who simply loved him. She adapted this story effortlessly to the movie screen, and because of her faithful adaptation of her books to equally good movies, they were a resounding success. League champions DESPERATELY NEED to be treated in the same way when their lore is being adapted to the new world. They need to be who they always are, just expanded. We don't need to reinvent them entirely all the time and/or add dramatic elements to their story (don't get me started on the way they murdered Zac's parents in his lore update), we just need to have the characters we love built to be functional in the grander scope of the world.

On a similar vein, there's Pyke and Nautilus. I cannot recall if it was Scathelocke or Waargabobo who said this around Pyke's release, but they had hardcore planned to rewrite Nautilus entirely. This was so they could cannibalize his story for Pyke. This is a SEVERE NO-NO, and again reinforces the point that there doesn't seem to be a grander vision in mind for the lore, that it's all made up at will. Under no circumstance should you ever even bat an eyelash in consideration of erasing one champion's lore and story so that you can make a new champion who tells that story better. Make it work, however you can with the two coinciding - you did this with Pyke once you saw how against Nautilus' lore replacement the community was, but at the expense of losing potentially cool VOs for Pyke. Because Nautilus was in a lore limbo he shouldn't have been in to start with, there were no lines in Pyke's VO towards him, since you were unsure of where Nautilus was going. This is bad, considering how interesting their interactions could have been. Instead, we get chatter with people like Ashe? So no, please do not consider this kind of thing again for the future. Rewriting existing characters should ever and always be a hard, decisive NO.

And then we come to my last major problem with the lore, that I only briefly touched on above - it's the over-interconnectivity of everything. It's fine having the Watchers be Void related, we'd suspected as much since Lissandra's release. However, it's becoming a HUGE problem in the lore lately how every villainous force in the world is now being tied to the Void, and it's equally becoming a problem how all the god beings of the world are the bastard children of the Targonian Aspects. This is homogenizing the world, and it's creating a dullness. When you know everything in a story, there are no surprises. When there are no unknown elements to this new character, what's the point of investing interest in them? Once this starts to lock in the story, the story starts to fall apart, because the compelling elements are all gone. There's no mysticism, no unknowns, no newness to everything - and this is further expanded by the fact that pretty much all the higher beings are now former humans, again, making things dull. This over-explanation of the world is detrimental to story telling, and it's a bad habit that the team appears to be falling into.

There's a caveat, of course. I give exception to VGUs, as these are special cases of reinventing the champion and their kits. My main drive about this post is expressly regarding already existing champions who haven't had VGUs.

RiotBioluminescence5 votes

Whew. First I'd like to thank you for your response, Oleandervine. Very eloquently put and I appreciate that.

I feel like a butcher boiling what you wrote done to just two points, but for the sake of me being able to respond in a timely manner, I'll do that.

  1. Perceived disrespect for, or misunderstanding of, what makes a champion that champion, and
  2. Too much simplification of origin for our big bads, and our sources of power.

I'll take on point 2, first. I agree. I think that there was a push to try to get the underpinnings of Runeterra to make a bit more sense, to have a structure and an order behind them so that folks would be able to grok the universe more quickly, and with knowable rulesets, be able to better hypothesize and theorycraft about connections and implications. Not a terrible impulse by any measure, but I think that it went too far.

Some loreheads like myself want there to be many vectors of power and mystery - the real world is a hella complex puzzle and having something almost too complex to wrap your head 'round (or simply too mysterious) gives it that sense of verisimilitude that we want.

Part of me suspects that this is coming across as being too far reaching and coarse, because this urge to simplify and make more accessible is being done more publicly than you would normally see. If this were a novel, the author might well go through this as an iteration of their world building (after their editor returned some feedback) but the author would work through that in private. The version we'd eventually read from the author might well have simplified the sources of power, but would have also had time to explore and show the many, and natural, exceptions to the rules.

This is, however, just my opinion. I think that the drive to unify some of the elements of the universe isn't a terrible idea - but that it's possible that we're seeing the pendulum swung too far; an overreaction of sorts or at the very least, an unrepresentative swathe that focuses mostly on those things. Everything in League has to be done in bits and pieces - and the order of those bits and pieces, can be as important as the content of those bits and pieces. (Like when Jayce's color story came out before Viktor's. That was a rough week.)

In short, I agree that the world is starting to feel a bit too neat and simple in its big bads and power origins. I think it's been an overreaction. I think we'll start to see more diversity in those things in the future (at least, I hope so).

As to point 1, well thankfully I can be a bit shorter on that one. Scathlocke has decided to be the champion for this issue, and I am very happy about that. You'll often see him commenting about the goal being to update, not erase, a character. Scathlocke also has the visibility and power to be well positioned to keep an eye on that (more than I do, certainly).

I suspect there might still be a few slip ups - usually because of a deadline that cannot be pushed - but I think it's going to keep improving. Internal processes are being created to make really knowing a champ very easy to do; even if you're a new hire who's only recently started playing League.

Oleandervine4 votes

Thank you for taking the time to respond and listen to my points. It's very good to hear that people on Riot's end are noticing how simplified the world is becoming, and I'm hoping there will be paths taken to correct it. I do agree that some elements can be tied together and still be functional (like I mentioned, the Watchers and Void fit pretty well), so I'm not against it, I'm just against doing that for everything. Like if the Shadow Isles and the Blessed Waters somehow become related to the Aspects of Targon, I think I'll be really pissed.

I'll look forward to seeing how Scathelocke will be moving forward with keeping the consistencies of characters intact. I'm not terribly reassured considering how poorly the Lissandra bio turned out, but I'll not lose hope. In that vein, regarding the slip ups, I would rather there be no release at all if a deadline is being pushed and there's not quality work rather than poor quality work be released just to satiate a deadline. In terms of lore, there will always be some other time to release it, so I just want to emphasize that I would prefer quality, even it takes longer, than quantity.

RiotBioluminescence4 votes

I would rather there be no release at all if a deadline is being pushed and there's not quality work rather than poor quality work be released just to satiate a deadline.

QFE. I would be super interested to know if we have more data on whether yours is a common sentiment on this. I mean, it's hard to say I suppose, because quality and expediency are both analogue and their importance varies with every player. Is "pretty good" + "now" good enough? What if the next window was 6 months from now? Does that make "pretty good" + "now" good enough?? Horrible questions to ask and I don't know what the answer is.

Ideally all content would be the best it possibly can be before releasing - and I don't know if it's like this for writers (I am a game designer by trade) but I know that eventually you reach diminishing returns and just have to ship. Especially if delaying for an extra percentage of improvement is delaying something else. Ugh. I hate even having these as things that are considered. I'd rather everything was released great, or not at all, myself too!

However, I think it would be very powerful to find out if that's a growing sentiment (or not growing - already popular!) with other lore-invested players. The calssic Shigeru Miyamoto quote seems very relevant here.

ModKnightsKemplar4 votes

I personally feel that my biggest detachment from the new lore is the lack of explanation for champion power parity.

The Institute of War was a clever way for all the champions to be on the same level. It made sense that Garen could solo kill Aurelion Sol in that context. The current lore has divorced the lore from the game. That was a mistake. I understand why it was done, but it also killed something really unique about League. The game and the lore made sense as a unit. We don't have that now.

The old lore wasn't perfect, by any stretch, but what it did do well was pull in players who wanted a game that was fresh and different. The old Journal of Justice allowed for evolving storylines that involved the characters in the game interacting with each other. The IoW took an active role in "game balance." The summoners were meta-players and the IoW leadership were meta-devs. Patches were the Institute tweaking the combatants, which they did in lore, too! That's why Jax has a brass lantern!

But let's expand on that point; back then, if I wanted to explain to a new player why Jax had a brass lantern, the answer made him badass. He was so good with a real weapon that the IoW had to restrict him. That's cool. Now, he's just an idiot that brought a lamp-post to a fight with a cosmic space dragon. And he brags about how he would fight better with a real weapon... so why not bring a real weapon, dumbass? Now, he's just a stupid guy fighting a being millions of times his size with a lamp-post.

This is at the heart of why League grew. It used to be different. Now we have over-the-top characters like A.Sol, just like any other MOBA. Now, we have loot boxes and keys, just like any other MOBA. And growth slowed. Because League became homogenized.

If you want to fix it, go back to your roots. Make me believe that Jax and A.Sol are on equal footing within the confines of SR. The rift isn't your meta-device, because it doesn't exist is Runeterra. So fix that. Make a new meta-device that explains SR in Runeterra. We, the players, used to exist in Runeterra as summoners. "You," (at least the balance team) used to exist in Runeterra as... more powerful summoners (heh, fix that, too). There's no place for us in the lore now. And that's why it's unpopular. Your game and your lore need to get back together, get re-married, and have beautiful profit babies.

EDIT: I realized on re-reading this got rambly. Let me summarize how I viewed this all when I wrote it:

  • Champs used to be "realistically" be pitted against each other
  • Players used to be part of the lore
  • New lore ruined some champs, haven't fixed them

All of this falls under the umbrella of "the lore and game got separated." The retcon focused on one goal. It wanted to fit awesome lore into the game. But a large chunk of your players loved that we had an awesome game that fit into the lore. We lost that, and I don't think I'll be thrilled with the direction until that changes.

RiotBioluminescence5 votes

If you want to fix it, go back to your roots. Make me believe that Jax and A.Sol are on equal footing within the confines of SR. The rift isn't your meta-device, because it doesn't exist is Runeterra. So fix that. Make a new meta-device that explains SR in Runeterra. We, the players, used to exist in Runeterra as summoners. "You," (at least the balance team) used to exist in Runeterra as... more powerful summoners (heh, fix that, too). There's no place for us in the lore now. And that's why it's unpopular. Your game and your lore need to get back together, get re-married, and have beautiful profit babies.

Now, it would never be said that companies don't like profit babies (especially beautiful ones) but I think you might be overselling the importance of that framing mechanism for players and the game.

I DO NOT DOUBT that for some players (perhaps like yourself) it was absolutely what got them invested in the game, and for other players it wasn't their primary reason but was a strong contributor - but I think that for other players, the reasons for League's success were unconnected to the lore framing of the game. The question then becomes - how much of an impact did/does it have, and if the impact is big enough, how do we go about solving that problem without breaking more than we fix.

I mean, heck, how many days go by between another player turning up on this Board, usually replying to a Rioter, telling us that "No-one cares about the stupid lore - fix your game"? We know that's not true, but it's what they believe.

I think, if we decided to try to solve the pain that you're feeling, we'd need to better identify the roots of the problem; the bullet points that you called out in your edit. Would you say that, at the core, you feel that the game suffers now from a lack of meaning? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, I swear - just trying to get to the core of it so we can better come up with solutions. Because I think that the 'obvious' solution of rolling back the lore clock to the pre-retcon would break more than it would fix, right now. But maybe we can fix it another way?

ModKnightsKemplar2 votes

I don't feel like you're putting words in my mouth, for sure! Good points, good questions. You may be right that I'm overstating it's significance. It's easy, as a player, to fall into the classic "passion trap."

I think it's less about "meaning" and more about "context" for me. The game was happening within the story in a way that made that transition so smooth and interesting. I mean, not every game was literally part of a larger narrative, but the structure of the game was. I could rationalize, based on what I knew about the actual League of Legends and Runeterra, a reason why Dr. Mundo and Rek'Sai would be ganking this Renekton in the top lane. Maybe it was silly, maybe it felt contrived to the writers, but it was unique.

Losing that might be a trade-off that I have to live with; it's not like I abandoned the game, after all. But it costs so much in terms of champion interaction. I mean, Aatrox has all these cool taunts for other champs. In the old lore, you could imagine him using those! Now, it's a long shot that Aatrox would even meet those champions in the canon. If Garen and Darius, for instance, actually met in the lore, one of them is likely to die. That makes it hard to write compelling stories about them.

But, if they met on the Fields of Justice, they could debate politics and military strategy while tearing each other's limbs off. And after one of them dies, they just come back and continue the argument! That's badass!

So yeah, the old League of Legends was a bit contrived. But the new lore is restrictive in a whole new way by limiting interaction between champions! Where will Garen and Kata get to play out their romance? How many times can Lucian realistically expect to fight Thresh before one of them actually wins that fight for good? When is Zilean supposed to comment on how ridiculous Volibear looks? All these questions don't have good answers now, because the champions are spread out across the world. Like yeah, Ryze can meet all them because he travels (and that cinematic was killer), but it's a poor substitute for the IoW so far.

I want our arena of champions back. They can still interact off the Fields of Justice, too, and have cool story arcs. I love the improvements to story telling that Riot made. But, I don't understand why we can't have that and put SR in the context of Runeterra.

RiotBioluminescence4 votes

Sorry to sound like a broken record, but I think there are still multiple angles here :)

You start out saying that it's about context - and I get that. You want to be able to rationalize that Dr. Mundo and Rek'Sai are fighting on the same side, and that it could have greater meaning.

Then, however, you talk about wanting the champ interactions to be 'real' - that Thresh has near infinite opportunities to taunt Lucian about the fate of Senna, because they really are meeting each other's real selves in a game. This one seems like there may be more to unpack.

I could, for example, totally get it if the underlying desire was to see champs interacting more often. I'd totally get that. Our champs in the 'canon' lore haven't done as much interacting as I'd like to see - not by a long shot. So if the urge is that seeing them interacting through the medium of the game gives almost endless opportunities to explore the personality clashes and conflicts, then I'd get that. I'm not sure it is the right way to solve that urge, but I'd get it.

My worry would be that, after the eleventybillionth time Thresh has taunted Lucian about his wife, it might get a bit old. Of course, that could get mitigated if we argued that, in 'real canon' lore, there are only a handful of matches of Runeterra League that are ever actually played - then we could do some exploration that doesn't outstay its welcome. The game then, would be "not a real match" but a "what if" match. Your match would still 'not matter', but it would look similar to a match that did matter. A bit like wargamers playing out the Battle of Waterloo, or Custers Last Stand, on their big diorama tables. It's not the real Battle of Waterloo - it may even have a different outcome - but it's a re-enactment of a real thing. Is that the sort of way you imagine it?

The questions about 'how many times can Lucian realistically expect to fight Thresh before one of them actually wins that fight for good?' is a fine question - but the opposite is also true. How many times are Lucian and Thresh realistically supposed to face off in enforced, never-ending, battle, before one or the other loses his mind or just shuts down? That's why I think there would need to be more (but different) constraints on what the game would have to be, if it became 'real' in Runeterra. Then, it's a question of - does this toothless version still satisfy the needs that we're identifying, or does it do so more poorly than other solutions might be able to.

To be clear, after all my rambling - I am in no way discounting the player pain that's being felt. I'm trying to separate the needs from the solution, to ensure that it's the best solution, and not just the most familiar one. Tricky to do!

ModKnightsKemplar2 votes

This is a great response!

And I think you're right. If there were SR matches on Runeterra every day, they would also lose meaning. You do have to eventually balance between no interaction and too much interaction.

in 'real canon' lore, there are only a handful of matches of Runeterra League that are ever actually played - then we could do some exploration that doesn't outstay its welcome

This is a perfect suggestion. It may not be something you can actually do, but this would fully satisfy my desire to canonize SR. I can make my peace with actual summoners not being canon :D

TBSkyen2 votes

{quoted}

I watched this video this morning - pretty grim viewing :/ Folks here (and the OP, Noies) seem to be be the kind of players who have thought about this deeply - what do you all suggest for the future?

Of course, we cannot change the past, and flip-flopping back would likely be the worst of all possible worlds. What do folks here think would be the best path ahead?

I know this will probably turn into a "Yeah but I want to talk about how bad the past was!" discussion, but there is literally no time machine available (not even for poor Zilean or Ekko) - so what's your solution-orientated future? If you just want to rant at someone at Riot, I'm happy to take that on the chin though :)

[galio-happy]

Totally cool if you don't have suggestions - it's not incumbent on you to do so, after all, but I wanted to hear from folks who might have opinions and want to share them.

... I mean, I have some THOUGHTS to be sure...

RiotBioluminescence3 votes

Pff - who are YOU to have any... oh. Oh it's TBSkyen.

Oh.

Well. Hi. Your video seemed quite fair.

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