Riot how about negative gold during death for item purchases?

Sahnjin·Dec 3, 2018·17 votes·9,444 views

Imagine you find yourself re-spawning in 50s. Most players probably shop shortly after death... but many, many of us know that we should open shop back up in ~10, ~20, ~30 seconds because we will generate enough passive gold to purchase or upgrade an item.

If you would accrue enough passive gold to buy an item by the time you spawn - you should be able to purchase an item before you technically acquire that gold. This would allow players to make a purchase in the shop at any point during death. I think this would be a welcomed quality of life improvement for a few reasons...

Helps lower elo players with smarter purchases Reduces time spent in shop Players can make item purchases or upgrades whenever they please during death Even more valuable in rapid passive gold generating games like ARAM. @Dev, Technical: each player could be assigned a 2nd gold value that initiates after death: the total gold you would have after spawning. This value adds the current gold with passive gold generation rate multiplied by the death timer.

36 Comments

The Highest NoonDec 3, 201814 votes

At best this is a Quality of Life idea, but it doesn't really change the game either way. The thing is, there are also many factors involved with the gold we get before respawning, such as after-death kills, assists, and towers.

SahnjinDec 4, 20182 votes

right but that already instantaneously adds gold to your pocket... this wouldn't be an issue at all... you just get more gold, right? ya feel?

The Highest NoonDec 4, 20181 votes

{quoted}

right but that already instantaneously adds gold to your pocket... this wouldn't be an issue at all... you just get more gold, right? ya feel?

It's actually not a serious issue. As a matter of fact, this would be the easiest system to add to the game. It's literally a middle school math problem. "Shen gets 2 gold every second. Shen dies and is dead for 20 seconds. How much gold would Shen have received while he's dead?"

That's it rofl

Bob the ToastrDec 3, 20185 votes

I like this idea but sadly I feel like there would be way to many bugs if Rito tried to make this a feature.

SahnjinDec 4, 20181 votes

it's a simple addition and multiplication, ez pz

Bob the ToastrDec 4, 20181 votes

I mean, death recaps shouldn't be that hard and they can't get those right after 10 years

Void KaijuDec 4, 20181 votes

The equation is easy at a basic level. Getting the game to never mess it up horribly is much less so.

Friendly RamDec 3, 20184 votes

We already (kinda) have this with futures market. Don't see it really helping.

The Highest NoonDec 3, 20185 votes

[{quoted}](name=Friendly Ram,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=zHvda2Ao,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-12-03T13:52:12.646+0000)

We already (kinda) have this with futures market. Don't see it really helping.

That's not what he's saying. He's saying that we should be able to use the gold that we'd have gained by the time we respawn, before respawning.

Friendly RamDec 3, 20181 votes

Which is different from future market how? It allows you to go negative and won't cost any extra if passive gold generation catches up before you leave fountain

The Highest NoonDec 3, 20189 votes

[{quoted}](name=Friendly Ram,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=zHvda2Ao,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-03T14:58:13.455+0000)

Which is different from future market how? It allows you to go negative and won't cost any extra if passive gold generation catches up before you leave fountain

Future market allows you to go negative.

His suggestion does not.

Read the post, please.

Friendly RamDec 3, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Highest Noon,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=zHvda2Ao,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2018-12-03T15:10:24.556+0000)

Read the post, please.

ˆˇˉˇˆDec 3, 20181 votes

So did you read post and finally understand?

Friendly RamDec 3, 20181 votes

Nope asking him to read the post.

Deez CritsDec 4, 20182 votes

I believe the reason you're making the claim that we 'already have this' with Future's Market is that a player with Future's Market can buy items ahead of time but, by the time they leave base after respawning, they will already be at 0 gold and no lending fee will apply.

The whole reason for Future's Market being taken, however, is not to make it more convenient to buy items. It's to be able to buy items without having the gold available and getting a 50 gold penalty as the tradeoff. This leaves you in negative gold after leaving base.

In other words, you are correct in the sense that what the OP is suggesting is basically a possible benefit from having Future's Market. But that convenience is not the main purpose of that rune; the OP is suggesting that this convenience should be available to all players as it actually doesn't affect gameplay (with exception of some cases I mentioned in a different comment).

Edit:

TLDR: Yes, player's with Future's Market have access to the convenience that the OP mentioned. However, the main argument is not that something like this doesn't exist in game, but rather that everyone should have access to it, not just those who have Future's Market (since this convenience is not the main purpose of the rune).

OleandervineDec 3, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Highest Noon,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=zHvda2Ao,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2018-12-03T13:56:24.106+0000)

That's not what he's saying. He's saying that we should be able to use the gold that we'd have gained by the time we respawn, before respawning.

But why go out of your way to do some weird programming that will basically give you 10-50s worth of gold? You'd have to program a calculation to give you gold worth your death timer, then stop your gold generation while you're dead so you wouldn't generate more gold (since you're getting it up front). Overall, it's an extremely convoluted "fix" for a "problem" that really doesn't exist. There's too much opportunity for bugs here, and it gets even more complicated when you throw in death passives like Karthus, Sion, or Kog'Maw. It's not worth the trouble for all the work that would need to go into this.

The Highest NoonDec 3, 20184 votes

Like I already said, it's a QoL idea but that's it lol

SahnjinDec 4, 20181 votes

{quoted}

But why go out of your way to do some weird programming that will basically give you 10-50s worth of gold? You'd have to program a calculation to give you gold worth your death timer, then stop your gold generation while you're dead so you wouldn't generate more gold (since you're getting it up front). Overall, it's an extremely convoluted "fix" for a "problem" that really doesn't exist. There's too much opportunity for bugs here, and it gets even more complicated when you throw in death passives like Karthus, Sion, or Kog'Maw. It's not worth the trouble for all the work that would need to go into this.

weird programming? it's a multiplication equation...

SahnjinDec 4, 20181 votes

Yeah... that's a really good point. There are too many loose ends. This game has so many different champions and interactions there's bound to be bugs. Maybe there's too much thought required here for a simple 'oh neat' feature.

SahnjinDec 4, 20181 votes

this is not what I'm talking about at all.

ChaosReynDec 5, 20181 votes

the equation is simple.

But the "weird programming" he means is in essence the amount of effort and time it would take to put that simple equation into the game's code in the correct places, without it imploding some aspect of the game.

My issue with this idea is actually with certain items. Liandry's on a dead Teemo is one of them...but this also speeds up more time sensitive items by technicality. RoA wouldn't be affected MUCH but it would be affected. Support items (namely spellthief line, but the runic line can do it too) would be affected more influentially, especially on champs with persistent effects (zyra plants, heimer towers, teemo shrooms, bard shrines, etc) by giving them the upgraded gold from the procs while the dead player upgraded it and was sitting at -30 gold.

Ardent Censor, an item a lot of people already complain a lot about on supports, would be pretty game changing. Buy it while dead, sitting at -30 gold, pop redemption, and let your adc clutch it in a teamfight you shouldn't have had a chance in hell winning. Also even more annoying on Bard in particular, as his shrines last forever.

Just a few QoL blockers to look at.

Deez CritsDec 3, 20183 votes

There's only a few very particular situations where there would be a small impact in game. Namely champions with DoTs who can buy Liandry's with their 'dead gold' (i.e. Malzahar, Brand... maybe even Teemo as stepping on a shroom with or without Liandry's is significant) or champions who can buy heal/shield power to boost their Redemption effectiveness before actually having that gold available under normal conditions.

I definitely support the idea! I think they would have to implement some kind of item purchase queue (you can click 'buy', but the item won't appear until you have the gold available) if they want to avoid the very niche scenarios where this type of change could have a bit of an influence.

SahnjinDec 4, 20181 votes

Oh you're totally right!! That is a good reason for Riot not to make this feature. But maybe they could disable the item bonuses until after spawn... might be a simple edit to the code but still... more work... I get it.

The23rdGamerDec 3, 20183 votes

I must say it's a clever solution to a problem and it is explained pretty well (despite all the people confusing this idea with Future's Market e.e).

The main downside to this is that I don't think Riot is going to go out of their way to program this since, like others have already said before me, it seems like it would be a pretty low priority feature that would only help in a couple distinct situations and even then wouldn't totally fix this issue (what happens if you acquire gold from other means after death? You'd still have to reopen the shop since the game couldn't have calculated that you were going to get an extra 100 gold for getting an assist after death until it has already happened)

Might be something to look into though, and at worst at least thanks for getting our heads turning with a QoL post! [sg-syndra]

SahnjinDec 4, 20181 votes

good contribution, thanks man.

But I have to argue one point. If you think about it any instantaneous gold income would not be a problem. Your gold already ticks up in both visible places and they happen together simultaneously. Your gold already tallies up when your team kills a tower or you get an assist so, the death timer passive gold bank would tally up the same amount as well.

xDarkxFieldxDec 3, 20182 votes

The problem with this is that Champions like teemo, Niddle, jhin, and other champs that can deal dmg with traps ans spells still active when they are dead can buy items to increase their dmg, For example If you where to pace a teemo R before dying, get killed and then purchases a Liandry's before It was stepped on It will still apply the bones burn of the Liandry's to the target that activated it . Allowing for the perches of items that you do not have the gold for yet could buff the effect of this interaction. Their is no need for this change you could just as easily open the shop 1 second before you re-spawn and make your perches then. The reasons you say It will help are really not that big , You don't need to open the shop till then unless your trying to buff dmg you will do with spells still in-effect, you don't need to reduce time in shop, Knowing when and what to but is part of the learning curve of league, and if you really need to buy an item in aram you can sit in fountain till you have the gold needed as buying items is tied to leaving fountain not to having re-spawned

SahnjinDec 4, 20181 votes

Yeah man, I think you're right that first point you made will be another issue or edit to the code, see @Deez Crits post just before you.

Fondling GemsDec 4, 20181 votes

To follow up on Dark, you could also see that you have X gold, which isn't enough for a Rab, but is enough for a different item. You buy the different item, some dot/trap ticks an enemy, you are now locked into that purchase. Your team then breaks a turret, which gives you the gold for Rab, but you can't undo and buy it because you ticked an enemy with damage while having bought a different item.

It also creates a strange interaction with future market where you may not want to put yourself in debt but can't see how much gold you actually have to spend, although this could theoretically be fixed by giving you your death gold upfront, and then not giving you gold/sec until you respawn.

Might be weird to new players though. They tend to get strange ideas and seeing yourself get a big burst of gold when they die might make them feed because they don't understand how it actually works.

In the end it lacks clarity, creates issues for some dot champs, and has a strange interaction with future market in exchange for speeding up a process where you already have a set amount of time where you can't do anything else.

BLACK REALM GODDec 3, 20181 votes

i dont like this idea because of 1 reason. it over-complicates something that isn't a problem.

SahnjinDec 4, 20181 votes

yeah, I guess that's always a valid point

Madjack01Dec 3, 20181 votes

Just a thought, this would exclude a resurrect champ forever (not sure if Riot already said that they would never do that anyways)

SahnjinDec 4, 20181 votes

Can you expand on this thought? I'd like to hear what you have to say.

HyperTechnoDec 3, 20181 votes

Yo, that is not that bad of an idea. It will force players to play a little more carefully, however, the gold deficit should not be too high. Riot, look it to that, that could be a more natural way of making comebacks. Because the Gold on death is kinda forceful in my opinion.

imfoolishDec 4, 20181 votes

i dont take handouts. i dont believe in the welfare system and think that everyone sh9ould be able to take care of themself and if they cant then they deserve to lane cuz trash belong in trash

The Highest NoonDec 4, 20181 votes

I feel like my initial concerns regarding the issue were unnecessary, because it seems that Riot has completely done away with the idea of early respawning. Revive's gone, after all, and there aren't any champs that revive earlier than they should after dying. Maybe there's a rune that shortens respawn time? But even in that case the system would still function normally, just with an adjusted death timer factoring in the rune if it exists. This really is something worth looking into, and I think if you're serious about the idea then you should consider the pros and cons of it. Not just of how convenient it can be, but also how it'd affect gameplay and metagaming. One significant change I can see would be that players no longer consider their timer in regards to how much gold they'd have by the time they respawn since they'd merely get all of their while-dead gold as soon as they die. That could be good and that could be bad, depending on how you look at it.