Possible addition to Zyra passive

datfaticecream··162 votes·31,334 views

I think Zyra's passive could be that if she manages kills an opponent with her passive she can either:

a. Revert to a targetable flower bud stage and revive after a few seconds like Anivia egg; the health she regains is a fraction (maybe 1/6) of the damage dealt to all enemy champions killed from the passive

b. Grow a targetable root to the location of the dead enemy champion and rebirth there the same way as stated from part 'a', if she kills multiple champions with the passive, the root grows to where to last enemy champion killed from her passive

To prevent her from being immortal, the revival part of the passive only occurs every once in a while like how Zac/Aatrox has a cooldown timer for their passive, but her original passive still procs whenever she dies

Sorry for posting this in the wrong category if I did

139 Comments

RiotMeddler147 votes

That's a really cool suggestion, and a change that would fit well with Zyra's playstyle and backstory. We'll do a bit of experimentation with that sort of approach, see if we can get a version that plays well in game without being excessively strong. Can't guarantee we'll end up shipping any changes, definitely worth investigating though.

PokladnicaZla1 votes

What about tremor sense while her Passive is active?

datfaticecream2 votes

I am not 100% about what I am about to say is correct, but

I think if Zyra is in her passive form, she already counts as dead and so, untargetable. Much like Azir/Zed soldiers/shadows they do not get shown from tremor sense. However, according to the revival idea, if she is in the process of rebirthing, she can be seen and will be vulnerable.

PokladnicaZla2 votes

I'm sorry,but I don't get your point.

I meant that Zrya(when she becomes a plant) is able to sense enemies like Rek'Sai.I don't undrtstand what her being untargetable has to do with it.

Blue Socialist5 votes

OP's response was probably a matter of misreading the question as "How would enemy tremor sense from Rek'sai affect Zyra Passive?"

Axis the Dragon2 votes

I feel like it would make sense. She's in plant form, right? So she's got roots everywhere. Essentially "feeling" Champions walking around. I think it's a good idea.

destos24 votes

what about improving her plant AI as well? can that be worked on too? I know plants don't have a complex nervous system and can't really make complex decisions. but they should at least not be dumber than dirt.

sp4412 votes

I think you're supposed to AA enemy champions in order for the plants to focus them, to prevent her from simply putting up plants in front of her minion wave and simply zoning you forever.

Robert Smith3 votes

So unlikeHeimerdinger and Yorick

sp4414 votes

Zyra has more reliable up-front damage and utility. Her ult can outright win fights if used properly.

The Bearded Bard3 votes

{quoted}

what about improving her plant AI as well? can that be worked on too? I know plants don't have a complex nervous system and can't really make complex decisions. but they should at least not be dumber than dirt.

The plants are actually pretty damn good. On spawn they automatically attack the nearest champion, after that they go for whatever Zyra autoattacks or whatever is attacking Zyra. Honestly I don't know what more you could ask for.

Awoof3 votes

Besides this, are there other Zyra changes planned? I think it's currently a wide assessment that she feels rather weak.

Sugar Momma5 votes

This is the first time I've seen a Rioter not only comment on a proposed balance change but actually say they'd like to implement it. Love you Meddler, and for the record I love this Zyra change too btw.

GhostOfShrimpmas2 votes

OP figured it out. The way to make Rioters take our balance suggestions seriously is to include impossibly shitty MS Paint diagrams.

You've uncovered the secret!

Blue Moon Wolf2 votes

I'm liking where this is going :) ALL ABOARD THE ZYRA HYPE TRAIN!

Lesbian Zyra1 votes

{quoted}

That's a really cool suggestion, and a change that would fit well with Zyra's playstyle and backstory. We'll do a bit of experimentation with that sort of approach, see if we can get a version that plays well in game without being excessively strong. Can't guarantee we'll end up shipping any changes, definitely worth investigating though.

At least one of mid Zyra players got attention by riot. I tried to buff mid Zyra for almost 2 years. The only one who responded was Moobeat from surrat20.

Phil Fly28 votes

upvoted for the drawings

SnoKingXBL5 votes

Concept art OP. :D

Anotherherolost8 votes

How often do you kill people with your passive?

RiotMeddler32 votes

{quoted}

How often do you kill people with your passive?

I don't have any stats on average Zyra kills with passive per game, though must admit I'm curious now. Anecdotally I'm guessing somewhere around the one kill a game mark. That's not going to offer that many respawn opportunities, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Occasional high moments can create some really memorable games and a low rate of occurrence means that not too much of a champion's power budget needs to be spent on such an effect. High variance effects can be tough to balance at times, since a really good or lucky player can sometimes achieve extreme results we need to balance around. In this case though given the setup requires death and the reward would be lack of death that might not be too much of an issue however (again, can't promise this'll go anywhere yet of course).

ItemsGuy6 votes

Hmm, I almost wonder if it would be more worthwhile to explore why Zyra (a ranged caster champion with multiple ways of staying out of harm's way) has a death-triggered, damage-dealing Innate.

As opposed to champs like Aatrox, Zac, and Sion, who thrive in melee and whose deaths can be at times attributed to them succeeding in pulling aggro away from their back-line damage dealers, Zyra and Kog'Maw (and even Karthus, to some extent--perhaps justified in that he can use all of his abilities in death and has a massive AoE damage aura despite the long-range poke DPS and anti-initiation wall and channeled ult) have a part of their kit locked away unless they position poorly, and at times actually punish melee opponents for successfully closing the gap and taking them out.

While asking for such long-standing Innates to be changed might be a bit out-there (especially with such iconic ones as Death Defied--which, honestly, I think should have some prerequisites or at least a cooldown so there are clear good and bad times to die as him, rather than "flash into the middle of the teamfight and pray for a quick death"), hopefully this is something you guys eventually look at. Kit mechanics are how you, the designer, communicate with the players, and I'm sure the last thing you guys want to do is send mixed signals!

Ariel the Cruel4 votes

As opposed to champs like Aatrox,

I still wonder why he isn't a support. Everything in his lore and VO just screams support. And yet, he plays more selfishly than Draven. :/

RiotMeddler17 votes

We feel death passives can be the right choice in a couple of circumstances.

  1. High risk patterns that result in death frequently/where the best way to play is to expect to die in an even team fight. Post death passives here give you some chance for contribution regardless of how quickly you die and synergize well with the sort of actions you should be taking anyway (middle of enemy team or front of your own team). Sion and Karthus are the best examples here, with both often doing it right if they end up dead near the enemy team. Zyra's fits this category slightly, as a squishy, immobile mage with moderate cast ranges, whose contribution drops off significantly after she's used her CDs/seeds.

  2. When we want to offer a champion more power when they're having a poor game than a successful one. If a character's too feast or famine, absolutely crushing some games and failing to contribute anything in others, then a post death passive can be a good fit, since it offers more power to the struggling games. Kog'Maw's the best example of this, with the passive being non existent in games where he's stomping and a pretty reliable true damage AOE in games where he's having a lot of trouble. Zyra comes into this category pretty solidly. She's got a lot of damage between her plants and spells and regularly tops damage charts when having a reasonable game. She's pretty vulnerable though when her spells are on CD/against enemies with the right tools to avoid them, so if she's not having a good game she can end up dying a lot.

Hupsis11 votes

I personally think it would be fair to give Zyra a passive that also affected her gameplay when she's alive. Something like increased cast range when she stands still for a while (rooting herself and making a garden around her or something cool).

But I guess she's too oppressive if she was given more power to her already powerful kit. I wouldn't mind tho if some of her power was sacrificed so that she would get a more interesting passive.

Mongoose3 votes

ey old xerath? that could be cool if her passive worked like xerath old w

ItemsGuy3 votes

(TL;DR at the bottom because I rambled a bit--sorry!)

With the first case, I agree with you on everything (something that you only have access to upon death isn't such a bad thing when your role requires that you put your life on the line--Aatrox is an alright example, but someone like Sion is probably the best implementation of it to date due to the fact that he wants to get as deep into the enemy team as possible and has extremely limited means of escaping), except for Zyra and champions like Zyra fitting in that caregory, since positioning and timing are elements that are core to the gameplay that surrounds them. I assume there's a reason champions like Veigar, Annie, Fiddlesticks, Karma, Malzahar, Ryze, and Cassiopeia (who probably has the worst range of them all)--who all fit the bill of being squishy, immobile, mid-ranged mages with windows of power limited by ability cooldowns--don't do something odd when somebody on the enemy team outpositions them and turns their screen grey. I think for Zyra in particular, something that rewards her for staying out of harm's way or gives her a tool to deal with champs like Fizz who can jump straight to her from 1250 units away (and champion LoS is 1100 units, if I recall correctly) would be more appropriate, but I think this actually brings us to the second point.

With the second case, I'm going to say that it's not that great a justification because you guys have come up with much more elegant and creative fallback patterns for many other champs, and have left other champions to suffer from that feast-or-famine gameplay (Yi is probably the most tragic example) for over half a decade. Yasuo, for example, doesn't Seppuku himself through an enemy champion Yoshimitsu-style when he dies, he creates a projectile blocking wall that his entire team benefits from. Akali doesn't burst into a cloud of kunai when she dies, but she can create a slowing field. Even Kog'Maw has a much longer, more potent slowing field, an armor/MR shred, and his ult's reveal to contribute to his team when he isn't doing too hot.

It just feels kind of bogus, having a chunk of your ability kit denied from you when you're actually playing well (Sion's expected to still use his because "playing well" for him could mean eating 3 ults that his carry no longer has to worry about), when other more satisfying solutions could have been applied. Allocating power in ways that give enemies some way to respond when certain champions are "crushing" in any particular game, I think, would ultimately be a more satisfying way to prevent that feast-or-famine.

For example, toning down some of the raw power in Kog'Maw's kit and tying it to an Innate that increases his damage dealt to an individual target after attacking them a set amount of times (tying in with both his acidic theming and his role as a marksman) makes him a bit less of a nightmare, because now if he's doing really well, circulating your frontline before he reaches that peak or keeping fights limited to short skirmishes are viable ways to undermine his power--I believe this is actually something that was done with Ashe, who could be 13/0/5 and still be dealt with if measures are taken to mitigate her strengths.

For Zyra, something along the lines of taking some immediate power away from her plants (since right now, they're basically DoTs that are occasionally applied at the end of her abilities and "drop two seeds before throwing a Q or E" doesn't create much different gameplay than Brand going for a pillar -> stun combo or Vel'Koz guaranteeing a few Innate procs by setting up with his weird knockup) and pushes her towards a more unique style of play might be worth exploring. Perhaps instead of going, "hey, Zyra's a champion, and all champions should be designed around contributing to huge teamfights," turning Zyra into a champion that broadens the range of strategy available to players by defining her strengths around cultivating her plants and tactically spreading them around the map could make her a champion that's unique in her own right (beyond having lamer versions of Heimer turrets) with counterplay that's unique to her (kill the plants before they grow to deny her map presence and damage/utility), and ultimately make her a lot less feast-or-famine without locking a fifth of her kit behind one of the intentionally worst feelings in the game.

TL;DR -

1- Post-death abilities are cool on champs whose gameplay puts them at direct risk of dying; post-death abilities on champs whose abilities/roles don't require they throw themselves into the enemy team don't really make sense, and I assume Veigar/Cass/Ryze/Annie don't explode upon dying for deliberate reasons. I didn't mention this in my spiel, but Karthus and Anivia I can mostly understand from thematic viewpoints, but I think those qualities to them could be improved as well.

2- I can see your train of thought on this one, and you're by no means incorrect, but there are definitely more creative solutions to the feast/famine problem that don't involve locking away 20% of any given kit. Either that, or I expect Yi/Vayne/Draven/etc. to explode on death in future iterations of their gameplay kits. I hope A) that's not the case, and B) that we eventually get better solutions to Kog'Maw's and Zyra's Innates.

Thanks for reading! While I don't necessarily agree with all of your points, I'm glad you guys are open with us and don't hesitate to explain the justifications behind your decisions.

Jesus is Savior2 votes

{quoted}

I don't have any stats on average Zyra kills with passive per game, though must admit I'm curious now. Anecdotally I'm guessing somewhere around the one kill a game mark. That's not going to offer that many respawn opportunities, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. Occasional high moments can create some really memorable games and a low rate of occurrence means that not too much of a champion's power budget needs to be spent on such an effect. High variance effects can be tough to balance at times, since a really good or lucky player can sometimes achieve extreme results we need to balance around. In this case though given the setup requires death and the reward would be lack of death that might not be too much of an issue however (again, can't promise this'll go anywhere yet of course).

If you want it to be easy to balance:

Make it like Sion's passive or Yorick's ult: she revives TEMPORARILY as a withered plant for a specific duration or until she dies.

EDIT: just make it so her respawn timer starts upon her FIRST death, so she doesn't feel bad for killing someone and extending her respawn time with a temp revive.

RiotMeddler16 votes

[{quoted}](name=That Evelynn,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=lZwERUAI,comment-id=000600010002,timestamp=2015-07-27T13:38:04.099+0000)

If you want it to be easy to balance:

Make it like Sion's passive or Yorick's ult: she revives TEMPORARILY as a withered plant for a specific duration or until she dies.

EDIT: just make it so her respawn timer starts upon her FIRST death, so she doesn't feel bad for killing someone and extending her respawn time with a temp revive.

Yeah, there are a bunch of approaches that might fit here depending on the power that's appropriate and the gameplay desired. Main ones that leap to mind that we'll talk about internally being:

  • True respawn at point of kill, point of Zyra's death or back at the fountain
  • Temporary respawn at point of kill
  • Substantially reduced death timer per champion killed by the passive
Gavran1 votes

True respawn at point of kill, point of Zyra's death or back at the fountain

I found that distinction pretty interesting, but I can't decide, which would you say is "stronger"? I'm leaning toward point of death, but point of kill could get you at someone who was fleeing a crowded fight - or under a tower with too low health to survive it's first hit (if that's likely, I'd say a tiny window of untargetability to flash out or maybe just unable to flash for a bit might be in order).

Point of death of course we see all the time and is great if you got almost to safety or have your team catch up, and completely worthless if you're in the middle of the enemy team (though unless she's caught, Zyra shouldn't be...)

tl;dr Which do you think is more powerful for Zyra, point of kill or death?

hpp32 votes

In my opinion, from strongest to weakest:

  • back at the fountain (complete safety)

  • point of death

  • point of kill

Unless you are positioned very strangely, the point of kill will almost always be closer to the "enemies" than the point of death, because enemies tend to stand closer to their side of the map, and they tend to be clustered (the enemy you just killed being one of them, you will respawn in the middle of them).

Sona Ping4 votes

True Respawn would be great if you could do it. Not only mechanically but it would fit so well with Zyra's Lore and would be a lot like how Zyra created herself originally.

hpp32 votes

There's an interesting parallel between true respawn and Zyra's lore.

Longing to take control of her fate, the ancient, dying plant Zyra Zyra transferred her consciousness into a human body for a second chance at life. ... Potent magic surged through her vines, and she devised an elegant but risky plan to survive. Using the woman’s memories, Zyra poured her newfound magic into the creation of a human-shaped vessel. She didn’t know what sort of world awaited her, but she had nothing left to lose. ... She was reborn, and there was so much now within her grasp.

TheFirstGokun5 votes

Giving her a non-bs revive if she manages to hit and kill an enemy? That's the coolest thing, and barely requires any compensation nerfs considering how difficult it is to pull off :D

Monsta Moo3 votes

{quoted}

Giving her a non-bs revive if she manages to hit and kill an enemy? That's the coolest thing, and barely requires any compensation nerfs considering how difficult it is to pull off :D

Exactly

manbearswine1 votes

{quoted}

Giving her a non-bs revive if she manages to hit and kill an enemy? That's the coolest thing, and barely requires any compensation nerfs considering how difficult it is to pull off :D

Except that you know,one of zyra's problem's right now is how unreliable she is,so trading some of her current power for something even more unreliable will likely just make the problem worse.

Honestly I am unwilling to trade anything for this passive,and if they want to buff her I'd prefer almost anything else as well,but maybe that's just me.

TheFirstGokun2 votes

Well, like I said, unreliability means they can give her this without too much issue in the way of nerfs. It's already so hard to finish a trade with Zyra's passive that she might as well be able to do this and get da cool playz.

S2C2Xd9KOy3 votes

Zyra approves.

RottedApples3 votes

10/10 art

The Bearded Bard2 votes

I like the first idea, but she'd probably be nerfed to compensate for a change like that, and I wouldn't want that.

A Miss Fortune12 votes

I don't think she would need nerfs. Zyra right now is probably the worst mid laner, and I actually have a few reasons to back it up aside from my opinion which in reality is totally irrelevant in comparison to facts.

  • She has significantly less damage than most mid laners

  • Q only has 210 base damage and only 65% of her AP

  • E only has 200 base damage + 50% of her AP

  • Her ultimate actually does really nice damage, 350 base damage + 70% of her AP (Soraka's Q, Starcall, has 230 + 35% AP and potentially 345 + 50% of her AP) (Sona's Q, Hymn of Valor + her Passive combo does 492 base damage + 90% of her AP +40% more damage on her auto attack half) (Lulu's Q, Glitterance does 260 + 50% of her AP) (Viktor's Q, Siphon Power also which is not his primary damage most of the game does 120+210 base damage also with 70% of his AP and 100% of his AD also with a shield and potentially a 30% movement speed boost) (Annie's Q, Disintergrate, does 220 base damage + 80% of her AP potentially with a stun) (Leblanc's E, which is not her main damage and actually her least used ability with similar width and travel time as Zyra's E, does potentially 280 base damage + 100% of her AP with also a snare.)

  • She's insanely mana hungry

  • Q costs 95 mana at max rank

  • E costs 90 mana at max rank

  • R (ultimate) costs 140 at max rank

  • She has some of the easiest to dodge skillshots

  • Her Q has a .625 second delay

  • Her E has only 1100 projectile speed

  • Her R (ultimate)'s damage is instant, but the knockup takes 2 seeconds

  • Her Passive takse 2 seconds before using, has an extremely small width, and also does mediocre damage

Zyra's damage is mediocre, and her Q + E is ridiculously easy to dodge, there's absolutely no reason you should be hit by it in lane unless you're up close or simply standing still. She has CC, but there are plenty of other mid laners with stronger CC that is much more reliable to hit. Zyra's damage is actually lower than some other Mages who are also played commonly as a Support. Like I noted, Sona's Q + Passive alone can essentially do more damage than Zyra's entire combo, especially since she can also apply Lich Bane. Even Soraka can do more damage than Zyra's Q, while also being much easier to hit and also healing Soraka significantly.

The Bearded Bard7 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=lZwERUAI,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-07-27T03:16:45.097+0000)

I don't think she would need nerfs. Zyra right now is probably the worst mid laner, and I actually have a few reasons to back it up aside from my opinion which in reality is totally irrelevant in comparison to facts.

  • She has significantly less damage than most mid laners

  • Q only has 210 base damage and only 65% of her AP

  • E only has 200 base damage + 50% of her AP

  • Her ultimate actually does really nice damage, 350 base damage + 70% of her AP (Soraka's Q, Starcall, has 230 + 35% AP and potentially 345 + 50% of her AP) (Sona's Q, Hymn of Valor + her Passive combo does 492 base damage + 90% of her AP +40% more damage on her auto attack half) (Lulu's Q, Glitterance does 260 + 50% of her AP) (Viktor's Q, Siphon Power also which is not his primary damage most of the game does 120+210 base damage also with 70% of his AP and 100% of his AD also with a shield and potentially a 30% movement speed boost) (Annie's Q, Disintergrate, does 220 base damage + 80% of her AP potentially with a stun) (Leblanc's E, which is not her main damage and actually her least used ability with similar width and travel time as Zyra's E, does potentially 280 base damage + 100% of her AP with also a snare.)

  • She's insanely mana hungry

  • Q costs 95 mana at max rank

  • E costs 90 mana at max rank

  • R (ultimate) costs 140 at max rank

  • She has some of the easiest to dodge skillshots

  • Her Q has a .625 second delay

  • Her E has only 1100 projectile speed

  • Her R (ultimate)'s damage is instant, but the knockup takes 2 seeconds

  • Her Passive takse 2 seconds before using, has an extremely small width, and also does mediocre damage

Zyra's damage is mediocre, and her Q + E is ridiculously easy to dodge, there's absolutely no reason you should be hit by it in lane unless you're up close or simply standing still. She has CC, but there are plenty of other mid laners with stronger CC that is much more reliable to hit. Zyra's damage is actually lower than some other Mages who are also played commonly as a Support. Like I noted, Sona's Q + Passive alone can essentially do more damage than Zyra's entire combo, especially since she can also apply Lich Bane. Even Soraka can do more damage than Zyra's Q, while also being much easier to hit and also healing Soraka significantly.

Is not about her damage on spells, it's about the damage on plants + spells. I play a lot of zyra mid and I've never had a bad game with her. Her mana costs are high because it'd be ridiculously oppressive if they weren't, plus she's only got two basic spells that cost mana. Her mana per level is actually really good, I can usually get by post lanephase without buying anything more than a morellos. The only thing I'd lower is her ult cost because 120 is weird and annoying. As for her Q being hard to hit, well that's honestly your opinion, not fact. I rarely miss with it, and when I do the plants make up for the damage I'm missing.

You're comparing Zyra to burst mages. Zyra is not a burst mage, so of course she's going to do less damage initially than them.

Maybe try some other sustained damage mages like:

Karthus Q: 120 + .3 or 240 + .6 E: 110 + .2

Orianna: Q 180 + .5 that gets lower as she hits enemies. W: 250 + .7 E: 180 + .3

Vladimir: Q 230 + .6 W: 160- 320 + .45

Regardless of who you're comparing her to, you're completely leaving out the fact that nearly every spell she casts spawns a plant that does 120 + .2 per attack.

Also, Zyra's ult's damage is not instant. Much like Liss's ult you take the damage as it expands, not instantly.

ChaoticPinecone3 votes

I highly question any post that says Zyra's damage is mediocre. As a "support" Zyra main who gets the Rylais + Liandries combo, i never end with low damage. In fact, i generally end up doing some of the most damage in the game.

Mimaropa2 votes

I agree but he's actually right on most parts. Zyra's abilities have flaws and her passive is downright depressing because it's impossible to hit anyone with it(2 sec prep time). Zyra's plants do great sustained damage plus the addition of item effects. They could do 100+ magic damage per aa which is huge during mid game. With ult , its pretty op. I bursted the enemy gnar with a full combo and deleted him as a zyra support.(I was waiting in the bush)

DlVA1 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=lZwERUAI,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2015-07-27T03:16:45.097+0000)

.Even Soraka can do more damage than Zyra's Q, while also being much easier to hit and also healing Soraka significantly.

Really? I have never had trouble hitting Zyra's Q, Soraka's Q is way harder to hit unless you're standing right next to the enemy, which could lead into your death. I think Zyra needs some buffs but this comparison was absolutely inaccurate.

A Miss Fortune1 votes

A .625 delay time, on a fairly high mana costing, moderate damage spell with not a ton of range as her main damage output?

Yeah, Soraka can do more damage than Zyra's Q. Actually, I can support this from a personal experience as for some reason Soraka is one of the only top laners I ever play.

Zyra Q: 210 + 65% AP Soraka Q: (If hit in the center) 345 + 50% AP

With about 500 AP, which I guess is pretty standard for most games.

Zyra's Q will do roughly 540 damage. Soraka's Q will do roughly 600 damage.

Also mind you that Soraka's Q heals her for a ton of health, has actually a lower mana cost, and also has higher range.

It's pretty pathetic that a Soraka's main damage ability can do more than Zyra's, when Soraka was reworked into being a Support and even her Heal only useable on allies, whereas Zyra was intended to be a mid laner Mage.

The Bearded Bard4 votes

[{quoted}](name=A Miss Fortune,realm=NA,application-id=A8FQeEA8,discussion-id=lZwERUAI,comment-id=0001000000040000,timestamp=2015-07-27T16:32:58.125+0000)

A .625 delay time, on a fairly high mana costing, moderate damage spell with not a ton of range as her main damage output?

Yeah, Soraka can do more damage than Zyra's Q. Actually, I can support this from a personal experience as for some reason Soraka is one of the only top laners I ever play.

Zyra Q: 210 + 65% AP Soraka Q: (If hit in the center) 345 + 50% AP

With about 500 AP, which I guess is pretty standard for most games.

Zyra's Q will do roughly 540 damage. Soraka's Q will do roughly 600 damage.

Also mind you that Soraka's Q heals her for a ton of health, has actually a lower mana cost, and also has higher range.

It's pretty pathetic that a Soraka's main damage ability can do more than Zyra's, when Soraka was reworked into being a Support and even her Heal only useable on allies, whereas Zyra was intended to be a mid laner Mage.

For the last time, Zyra's main damage is her plants, not her Q or E. Perhaps you're just playing her wrong.

Schrapnël2 votes

to the guy who said Zyra had no damage and high mana costs:

Have you ever played against a good Zyra ? Zyra is one of the champions that if well played and not shut down takes over the game with how ridiculous her damage is. I invite you to actually look at the damage done to champions in an end game screen with or against a Zyra. You'll be much surprised. I'm a fairly decent ADC and my girlfriend who is the same rank than me maybe a bit lower plays Zyra a lot as support only. She buys all the regular support items, wanna know what happens end game? She has most damage of the whole team; Every. Single. Time. That's how ridiculous this is, and we generally play with gold/plat people when we play together. The problem ain't the people playing bad there, it's the champion being strong. Strong enough passive wise. she needs something but definitely not what you're proposing IMO :/

About the people than zyra only kills one person per game with her passive:

I honestly think it's higher than that, but then again it depends oon the elo we're talking about, the lower you get the least people are likely to dodge it properly, if any buff happen to her passive i think the numbers and speed of the missile have to be changed in someway

either buff the damage but really reduce the speed, or increase speed but really reduce the numbers, cause right now it does a lot of damage and it flies really quick.

About the comparison with on death passive like kogmaw:

Kogmaw stays an ADC that is mainly single target, you ain't expecting to deal a lot of dmg with your saliva or hit the whole team with ult, Whereas Zyra got the area of her ult that is as large as amumu's, got cc in slows with plants, root, bump from ult as already mentioned,

I agree that for AP kog all this is less relevant.

But as far as i'm concerned i think letting zyra have those numbers and buffing the passive in the revive way is totally going to be unbalanced, i'm expecting to try it out on PBE inb4 Zyra mid OP... ^^

About the revive on passive suggestion:

I read the suggestion about making Zyra's passive actually revive her if she kills the enemy. And why i think that's a terrible Idea. When Anivia and Zac die they are obliged to spend a bit of time waiting doing nothing while the enemy can prevent the respawn by killing the egg or the blobs. If Zyra were to have the passive the condition was for her to kill someone which means that in a 1v1 lane like middle if you actually kill your opponent when he went all out and you did too, and he managed to outplay you, then you actually kill him and revive without him being able to stop that revive (because you just killed him, right ?) means she gets a free revive.... unless your jungler is there, and we know that's not gonna happen everytime. SO basically what you would like to do is to give the passive a kill potential and revive potential, then why not let zac deal damage with his blobs? or anivia cast spells in egg form ? Or aatrox ?? why not let karthus revive if he kills an enemy in his passive form ? even though we know that he just has to press R, while zyra just had to press one key and aim properly, and as far as i'm concerned the passive does pretty decent damage and flies pretty quickly too. Some long range mages will be able to dodge it because out of range, then other idlaners, like diana, talon, zed, ekko,Fizz will have a much harder time. If her passive is buffed in the revive way the missile speed and damage can't stay this way. either numbers up speed down, or speed up numbers down. from what they currently are. My suggestion would be to actually remove her being able to deal damage with the missile, but let her plants live for her current passives duration (which is already th ecase f i am not mistaken, and if she kills her opponent with ignite or her plants she gets revived at the location of the kill, she spawns as a plant, the plant start small then grows over 3 seconds and when she blooms Zyra reappears half health, half mana. can only occur once every 5 minutes

I agree Zyra needs something but, in the current state if well played she is one of the highest DPS i've seen with brand, the passive as plain out revive and dmg potential is not balanced :(...

@Meddler You guys be really careful in the way you are going to buff her :)

ayway that was my two cents :(

Thanks for reading

datfaticecream2 votes

Don't you think reviving with half health and mana is a bit too much? Aatrox can revive with quite a lot of health but that's only if he dies with a lot of the red bars. I also partially agree with what you said, this would be really strong since this is basically giving Zyra two passives. But the main point I'm trying to make is that although it varies from player to player and it is very situational; I strongly agree that Zyra has one of the highest DPS and in a 1v1 battle against certain champions even when dead and the enemy is low, she could easily finish them with the vengeful thorn, however, that is if there is no external interference. Because there is almost always a way the enemy could surprise you e.g. Soraka/Bard ults and saves the enemy you just 1v1'ed, or you haven't fully analysed your enemy e.g. you calculated when was the last time they used their heal/barrier summoner spell, but did not look up their profile and check if they have the mastery that reduces the cooldown of their ss. If this is revival passive does get added to Zyra, then like you and some others might have said, the dmg, speed etc. of the missile should be reduced.

I appreciate how you took the time to counter my suggestion with your opinions. I think the main reason I posted this suggestion on this page may be because I don't like how she has to die to use her passive.

But a more accurate reason may be because I don't like dying in general and would want to find ways of preventing death even to the point of altering a champion's kit just because I play the champion. I can understand if this idea gets rejected at the end because although situations change in battle and there can be a lot of unpredictable moments, if Zyra players understand their role, take precautions e.g. warding/staying with the team and do nothing 'wrong', then my reason for suggesting this passive is gone. (In other words, death is the punishment for doing the 'wrong' thing' and my primary purpose for proposing this new passive is to avoid the punishment of death; thus why it is reasonable not to change anything about her although this could lead to new playstyles and plays)

Sorry if that was hard to read, I should really use a thesaurus and also find better ways to connect my points.

The Bearded Bard2 votes

A lot of people complain about the passive, and yeah, it used to be much better and it's kind of lackluster now, BUT I'd be lying if I said I haven't gotten quite a few kills with it. Not so difficult to hit if you snare them before dying or lay some E plants before dying, that's why there's a delay in the first place.

Wullf1 votes

What is think is a proble m in your concepts is a fact that you have to kill someone with your passive.

How many times did you actually achieve that? I believe that for this effect to have any impact on her, the projectile should be much easier to land or the revival should not be dependant on killing someone with your passive.

I actually like the idea of seed-zyra having to look for "desirable soil" which would be represented by any dead champion. Or to widen the spectrum to champions that were killed by any Zyra abilities.

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