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An experiment to reduce queue times in Team Builder, starting today! (3/28/2014)

RiotLyte·3/28/2014, 10:42:42 PM·20 votes·13,422 views

::edit:: This experiment has been concluded. For the time being we'll be going back to allowing anyone to become Captains. We're continuing to work on other features to improve queue times.

Hey everyone,

TLDR: Trying a new experiment to reduce Team Builder queue times. Starting today, players will have to invite at least 1 friend to their group to become a Captain.

We hope everyone has been enjoying Team Builder so far; we’ve been closely monitoring the system and are currently seeing that there are too many Captains, and not enough Solo players available. Although about 95% of players are having queue times of 5-10 minutes or less (even doing unorthodox or creative comps!), this means that 5% of players are having unacceptable queue times. Players who are high MMR or low MMR tend to see these problems more frequently, and players who play during off-peak hours see this problem as well.

In light of this data, we’re going to try an experiment in Team Builder. Starting today, players have to invite at least 1 friend to their group to become a Captain. This should greatly improve the Captain-to-Solo ratio, and reduce queue times overall in Team Builder.

While this experiment is running, we’ll be working on a feature to show Solo players what teams are currently looking for to fill their teams.

As a reminder, we'll be doing our due diligence here. We'll be assessing match quality, queue times, and overall player experience. If there are any red flags whatsoever, we can revert the change and stop the experiment.

See you in Team Builder,

221 Comments

THE Space Jawa3/29/2014, 2:39:57 AM49 votes

Here's the problem I have with this change - in order to be a Captain now, it's not enough to have friends. Making friends is easy enough. However, with this change, you now not only have to have friends, but friends that can play team builder at the same time as you, AND actually want to play team builder, AND are interested in trying to put together the same team setup.

My understanding was that there were certain rewards and tradeoffs that came with team builder mode - one of them being the acceptance that if you wanted to do something that other people weren't as interested in, you would have to wait longer to get into a game. For example, if there's not many support, and lots of people looking for support, then the support players are going to get into games a lot quicker.

This overabundance of Captains seems like an example of that in action - if a lot of players want to be captain, then they're going to realize that they're going to have to wait a lot longer. I think that this problem could have been solved a lot easier if instead you were able to apply the wait time system to decision of playing as a captain or not so that if players tried to be a captain, they could get a message saying something like "There's a lot of captains right now, you will likely have to wait a long time - try joining someone elses game to significantly reduce your wait time."

People would either get the hint and start playing solo, or if they really wanted to captain a team, they would do it knowing full well that they're going to have to wait and solo players would continue to move into games a lot faster.

It's also probably worth noting that the full Team Builder mode just came out this week, so jumping to this kind of correction seems like jumping at things way too quickly. Considering that one of the other benefits of team builder is building out-of-the-box teams, OF COURSE people are going to want to make use of the system to build the teams they want to build. I think what's being seen is just an early rush and that if you had given the system time, things would have evened out eventually and they'd be far more balanced. And if not, is there any reason you couldn't have put this system in place later?

Long Story Short, I think you're jumping to a solution to what very well may be only a temporary problem that may well do far more harm than good in the long run.

And based on what's being said at the end of your post, it makes me worry if the next step to solve "unacceptable wait times" is to tell people they CAN'T play a certain role because there are too many people waiting to play that role. Which kind of makes the whole system irrelevant when you get right down to it.

Proximus D3/29/2014, 1:13:58 AM22 votes

In my opinion you shoud inform people that there is an undesirable captain/solo ratio right now, but not enforce it.

I think if you say "hey, you'll get shorter queue times if you go solo" most people will gladly do this. However some may have good reasons to go as captain even if it takes a bit longer (if you plan an unusual comp, for example. I hate when - after a long search - the group is nearly full and you get a "your group has disbanded. Try again, lol!")

hartar3/29/2014, 1:00:01 AM16 votes

I think the Queue got longer,not shorter

Oshiri no hana3/28/2014, 11:27:38 PM14 votes

This is way too gross. The queue times weren't that long to require such stupid restriction.

Jae 0ppa3/29/2014, 12:53:57 AM12 votes

Could you please not make this permanent? I dont really like team builder anymore, I use team builder as a captain to find good people to play with, most of the time my friends are unavailable so I cant become a captain with the new add ons. I cant deal with noobs always feeding, I like to use team builder as an advantage, i usually win my games when i get good people. Riot, could you please change the mode back to the way it was? Thank you for your time.

Countered3/29/2014, 1:35:59 AM10 votes

Please don't make this permanent. I don't see the issue of there being too many team captains- if you want to be a captain, you can wait. If there is a need for solo people joining then great, wait times will be lower for them. If you really wanna be a captain fine- you might have to wait a bit longer. Why would you use team builder when you have friends on that you can talk to before starting the match anyways? Team builder is for off hours when no one is online, and you can make a good team comp and weed out some more trolls. WORTH THE WAIT- and if its not great- choose to join a team or do normal blind pick.

Partholonian3/29/2014, 2:25:48 AM9 votes

While this experiment is running, we’ll be working on a feature to show Solo players what teams are currently looking for to fill their teams.

Thanks for this. I'm really looking forward to it.

Looks like I missed my chance to try out being captain though (at least if this lasts).

Laerborne3/29/2014, 2:25:55 AM8 votes

Allow groups to be matched with other groups. Some will not be compatible, but I'm sure a number of them will.

Allow "OR" in the captain's option. As an example: "Bottom lane, support or tank." Some people will queue Blitzcrank or Leona as either.

Allow the captain to grant group members champion selection changes. Sometimes you wait for a 5th player, and the composition could use a minor tweak. (More tank, more AP, ect.)

Mori Please3/29/2014, 12:37:33 AM7 votes

what? but now i cant play annie or cho'gath mid or galio supp without waiting like 10 minutes cause all my friends are afk :(

JustSayan3/29/2014, 1:00:28 AM7 votes

I really hope that this doesn't become permanent, because if it does it will destroy the opportunity for a summoner playing by themselves to set up and design a cool or zany composition (ie. 2 mid, 1 solo top/bot, 1 jungler). This change makes it so that only people who happen to be paired up with someone will be able to be creative with team builder and pretty much shafts creative solo players.

With this change, if you are a solo player, you will have to join the queue and hope that someone who is duo'd with someone else and who happens to have the same exact team layout that you had in mind, will pick you up.

AlwaysBigSpoon3/29/2014, 1:20:59 AM7 votes

Ya this ruined it for me. que's shot up, and the whole idea behind it failed. If my friends were on i'd do blind pick. I've found that as mid or top i captain and the rest i just fill, and my que's are around 5 min. Thats fine for getting a clean game going, and i think if you changed it back, it'll get popular and not need that tweak. I personally will not use it until you change it back unless there is a new champ out.

BUUUUUUUUUUT if you let everyone have 3 champs going into team builder (Mid mage, Kat, Xerath, Ryze) then i think the entire experience would heighten thru better synergy in team comp.

Either way, not good change.

stinglord3/29/2014, 1:49:50 AM6 votes

isn't that the point of team builder waiting a bit longer to get the team you want essentially.

PS. stop fixing things that aren't broken. I don't say this to rag but more as a compliment for the good work you guys do

Absurd Kale3/29/2014, 12:57:17 AM6 votes

Wait though. What about the people who don't have many friends? You're saying you're FORCED to be social or hope that there are enough people in off peak hours who do have friends on/ friends they actually want to play with, that there would be enough games? Seems a little punishing to those who don't have many people to play with, but want to try something out, or there aren't enough games up.

EDIT: Funny enough I've had to wait longer for a solo queue than I have before. Not to mention as a captain I'd get a game going in less than 2 minutes top. Thanks...

Teemo May Care3/29/2014, 4:45:23 PM6 votes

this has dramatically increased my queue time, not decreased it. I normally can find a game and get started within 5-10 minutes. I've now been in queue 19 minutes and counting...

EDIT: 28 minutes and counting, about to give up. I normally play toplane teemo, support or adc. I've never have a problem finding a group like this before. right now i am trying to toplane ryze..

Hooops3/29/2014, 4:16:31 PM5 votes

Possibly having problems because there are not enough captains.

I am playing on the East Coast on a Saturday morning. I have not been able to get placed into a queue at all (current actual wait time is 11 minutes). Admittedly, a lot of people are probably sleeping/otherwise not playing LOL right now. Could this be because there aren't enough captains? My friends are all asleep and/or on the West Coast, so I can't queue up to be a captain.

Lethargeeray3/29/2014, 3:19:00 AM5 votes

this was a horrible idea RIOT. I will wait up to 30 minutes to make my team, as Captain, from scratch. I just won 3 games in a row (/flex) as captain from the teams I built. From those games I made roughly 10 friends - who are usually in another game.

Yes, que times are lower with this most recent change but you will see that people rapidly get into:

Top:any Middle:any Jungle:any Bot:any Bot:any

that ^ is a horrible Captain with horrible friends aiming to FAIL.

I very much enjoyed the original que where there were 4 open slots (and I could actually build my team as Captain from scratch and win) that I could customize or boot based on - tier 1 champs (boot) free rotation champs (boot - except for me) inappropriate names (boot) immature conversation (boot) --- then team talked to get a general plan and then que.

Ya, it might take me, as Captain, a whole 15 - 20 minutes to make a team and start the game - meaning everyone else on my team had a less que time.

Now, I HAVE to have 1 friend on my team before I can que as a Captain or otherwise que solo and wait to see what garbage team I am placed in (any/any/any/any/any) and then decide to not join team repeatedly until I come across a team that looks like it might match up to my Team Standards - I might as well go to the Casino and gamble on the slots; at least there I win money sometimes.

Look back at the teams my team played RIOT and see that my team had 1 free rotation champ (me) and no Tier 1 Champs vs teams that had 2 - 3 free rotation champs and 2 - 3 Tier 1 Champs (by Tier 1 I mean any Champion that costs 450 IP) and then look at how long that opposing team took to wait in que before they saw 'Matchmaking Started' and compare that wait time of the winning Captain.

Remove the requirement that at least 1 friend be in my group before Captains can search for suitable teammates - Make Team Builder with 4 open search slots so I can make a team EVERY TIME.

Siachi3/28/2014, 10:53:09 PM5 votes

I'm curious if this will be a permanent change to Team Builder, or if it's more of a "Hey let's see what this does!" sort of thing? I assume if it DOES make queue times better, it might end up remaining?

EDIT: Why does it say this was posted 8 minute ago, when the original post for the thread was posted 3 minutes ago (At the time of writing this)?

EDIT2: My "X minutes ago" seems to actually be COUNTING DOWN. It says 6 minutes now (Again, at the time of writing this). Should I report this to the bugs section?

EDIT3: Well, it's counting back up now, but the reply to my post is marked as having been posted BEFORE my own post.

Gray the Grayte3/29/2014, 3:17:23 PM5 votes

Well that's disappointing. I don't play with friends so I can never be a captain?

Perhaps you could try simply telling people that there are too many captains or something.

Or perhaps you could enforce a wait time on being a captain based on the current ratio of players to captains. If there are adequate players to go around then the wait time would be zero. Teams with multiple players can have their captain wait time reduced based on the number of pre-made players.

And trial turning off blind pick to increase the player pool. Just as an experiment to see how it affects wait times.

I can think of several things to try other than just simply not allowing solo players to ever be a captain.

Akius4/1/2014, 12:25:07 PM4 votes

Just a random idea i have here. But what about creating some type of reward for playing some of the more needed roles? Like if a ton of supports are in need maybe an IP boost of some type for playing the Support role in teambuilder and completing a game without DCing? It might cause more diversity in some players if there is some type of reward for doing this.

I dunno just a random idea i had. Take it or leave it as you may.

Bigcb Void3/29/2014, 1:09:28 AM4 votes

when i built my own team it took idk maybe 2 mins to get into a game. now in solo queue its taking more than 5 mins of queue wait and then some... i dont think this helped at all

Tout663/29/2014, 1:53:01 PM4 votes

STOP the experiment its not working.Ive been waiting over 50 min. to join a game this is just stupid

Waywatcher2283/29/2014, 6:23:43 PM4 votes

It used to take me 2 mins to find a group. now it takes 15. and im playing normal things.

Dimitri Fox3/29/2014, 11:44:40 PM4 votes

I like team builder but this new change makes it so there are barely any team captains. A much better change would be to limit the number of team captains based on the number of players online and the number of active captains.

TPjorgeDP3/30/2014, 3:00:57 PM4 votes

Dear Riot,

Honestly, this was a bad decision. Didn't the obvious possibility of having an extremly low level of captains come to your mind?

I can't find a game anymore on team builder. Everything The Space Jawa said was correct in his first post.

Please TAKE OFF this idea. It is not working.

TeraInferno3/30/2014, 3:28:28 PM3 votes

Hello. First, thanks for bring teambuilder back online. I love the concept and its goals. I love the ability to pick a champion that you want to play and being able to play it with no fuss.

However, I have been searching for a group for over 15 minutes. I am queuing as mid Akali, and the estimated wait time was stated as "very short". 15 minutes doesn't seem to be a short wait time. I know I am queuing during a Sunday morning, but that shouldn't cause teambuilder to have such a long queue delay, or it would make teambuilder unusable during off peak times. My current time is ~9:25 AM US Mountain Time.

EDIT: Been searching for a group for 20 Minutes now

EDIT 2: Took 23 Minutes to find a group. Was a setup with 3 Mid. Wasn't interested, I wanted to solo lane akali. Left that group and back to searching for a group.

EDIT 3: Been 5 Minutes searching now.

stinglord3/30/2014, 10:43:37 PM3 votes

so how long is this so called "experiment" going to go on for. to me its quite obvious it was a colossal failure. kinda feels like you gave us this rely awesome thing to then later take a sledgehammer to it and make us cry

Duane Wuane3/31/2014, 2:40:37 PM3 votes

great job riot now i wait for 15-30 mins and still can't get a group..... way to screw up the new queue....

CookingManatee3/31/2014, 3:19:20 PM3 votes

Previous to this change, I could form a game as a captain, and have a team made in roughly under four minutes. I logged on today and tried joining a game solo. I was waiting for 15 and didn't find a single game. It would seem that the change dropped the amount of games to none

Lark883/31/2014, 6:45:00 PM3 votes

The waiting time has been longer for me since the experiment started. I understand that waiting for mid-lane would take longer, but the time has increased to 20+ minutes. Yesterday, I waited almost 30 minutes only to be insta-kicked. Seems like there are too few captains now. If you keep the number of captains up to the players, we'll figure out how to balance the number of joiners per captain. I noticed this during beta. If the queuing time for a joined game took too long, I'd captain a game. And another day, if I was waiting a long time for players to join, I'd just give up the captain's seat and join another team. With that method, wait time in the queue was around 1-3 min. Waiting for players as a captain seemed longer, but I'd rather wait for teammates while chatting with other players in Team Builder screen. I hope that makes sense.

Linna Excel4/1/2014, 1:48:18 AM3 votes

Lyte, I think the most recent fix is too heavy handed.

Why did the system break?

Because people were overloading the queue for the most desired position. So to fix it, just turn off being a captain when you try to select a role that's overloaded and has too many people trying to get in it as it is.

Juggzy4/1/2014, 5:48:31 AM3 votes

heres an idea it may be considered stupid or whatnot but why not use something similar to ARAMs reroll system where you have to play lets say two or three games in order to gain the option to be captain? I think end result might help out a bit but it might also be counter productive as well as I said just an idea to be consdiered

Redsoma3/29/2014, 11:04:14 AM1 votes

Example A : A Player prefers to play Duo Top so He makes the game because his chances of finding that play style is slim by simply queing. He also picks being a captain because if players complain like in blind pick he can boot them and the team does not have to deal with a jerk / troll.

To Quote Proximus D "In my opinion you shoud inform people that there is an undesirable captain/solo ratio right now, but not enforce it." ! A simple message or status letting players know what the ratio is would fix this. !

I don't think the issue is with the 5% that have longer wait times I think some people at riot don't like that most of the ques are not following the PRO meta or that style of play.

5% ? that's how many players it affected ? you care so much about 5% I bet that there is more than 5% on this forum thread complaining about the change.

Mr Red