Boards›Player Behavior

The Perm Ban?

MatthewXY··3 votes·862 views

So I just played a game of normals, and of course I fill into the support roll with a random. The opposing bot lane is pushing hard under tower, chipping my ADC away, as a "supportive" support I'm putting myself ahead to push them back. Every time I land CC on the opposing bot lane, my ADC wouldn't engage clear and obvious opportunities to take control. I end up taking a few deaths and my entire team flamed me. I've learned from mistakes in the past, not to curse and engage in toxic language when getting unanimously flamed by my entire team. My entire team who besides the jungle, all were losing their lanes, but choose to target me for "inting" for protecting my ADC. Anyways I was the only one to take any objectives during the game (two towers) while they claim their desire to "Team Deathmatch it out" was "productive". The worst thing is literally my last statement made about my team surrendering as we were gaining control towards the end of the game, and that was more sarcastic than anything because towards the end, because two of my teammates were letting them take objectives and ruined the game for the other three of us.

Anyways here are my logs from the game, and it's a real shame they don't show the chat that I received from my teammates. Where in any of this is any justification of a permanent ban? Since when does having a bad game and going negative get perm banned, just because other people report you because your team lost. And I'm pretty confident there was no human-review of this because the ban was almost instantaneous after the game was over.

Game 1 MatthewXY: sigh MatthewXY: #2017nohelp :P MatthewXY: yea that was a sigh MatthewXY: but you see how their teammates help accomplish an end goal MatthewXY: ok MatthewXY: seems about right MatthewXY: no follow on mid MatthewXY: i knew that you told me, i was still forced to run that way MatthewXY: i cant get to river to ward when they're pushing us under tower MatthewXY: and theirs no counter pressure MatthewXY: its tough, im trying to 1v2 push them back off chipping away draven, they're incredibly aggressive MatthewXY: well the fact that whenever i land a stun + e, the draven doesnt even throw the slightest knockback or auto MatthewXY: im not gonna 1 shot people lol MatthewXY: im dieing because when i throw a stun combo MatthewXY: you dont go in MatthewXY: no help MatthewXY: again MatthewXY: thats my point MatthewXY: i land a stun e combo MatthewXY: he should be dead MatthewXY: and you're nowhere to be seen draven MatthewXY: as you been the whole laning phase MatthewXY: you didnt need summs to just follow up behind me MatthewXY: lmao MatthewXY: and i was getting caught cause you were taking autos to the face like mia khalifa. lol MatthewXY: and i was warding them off MatthewXY: when they're under our tower, and im hitting them with stun combos MatthewXY: and you dont even throw an auto MatthewXY: thats not me being aggro MatthewXY: thats you doing nothing MatthewXY: like 3-4 pon nami MatthewXY: not really nasus, i admit that time, i got caught typing MatthewXY: im not inting. lol MatthewXY: draven is literally nit helping any pvp encounter MatthewXY: he's playing farm simulator MatthewXY: see what happens when someone helps me MatthewXY: we get atleast the trade MatthewXY: wow that damage MatthewXY: i dont ward jungle, u guys cry. i go to ward jungle, get attacked, still cry MatthewXY: theres no winning MatthewXY: thank you, was getting objective MatthewXY: and 1v1-ing the nami MatthewXY: because you make a comment every 3 seconds about me MatthewXY: shut up and i wont have anything to respond to MatthewXY: not really, they been flaming me since minute 1, and you can ask bot lane MatthewXY: everytime i landed a stun or something MatthewXY: draven just watched MatthewXY: never engaged a single time MatthewXY: lol MatthewXY: oo atleast i know you can criticize someone besides me. thats refreshing. :D MatthewXY: if thats your diagnosis MatthewXY: it must be true MatthewXY: tower goldddd for my team <3 MatthewXY: dw guys, i'll carry MatthewXY: llemme get 2 more towers so we have gold MatthewXY: ahh you pussys

60 Comments

ModThe Djinn3 votes

{quoted}MatthewXY: #2017nohelp :P MatthewXY: no help MatthewXY: and you're nowhere to be seen draven MatthewXY: as you been the whole laning phase MatthewXY: draven is literally nit helping any pvp encounter MatthewXY: he's playing farm simulator MatthewXY: oo atleast i know you can criticize someone besides me. thats refreshing. :D

So this isn't awful, but it is a bit unnecessary,and a bit rude.

MatthewXY: and i was getting caught cause you were taking autos to the face like mia khalifa. lol MatthewXY: ahh you pussys

This isn't really acceptable, although, again, it's not super major.

Am I correct in my assessment that you probably had a 14-day ban recently? This log seems like something that would have earned a chat restriction at the WORST, in my personal opinion, but it could have tipped the scales after a 14-day ban due to the minor harassment, and the two slightly crass insults. Remember -- punishments escalate, so enough low-level offenses can earn higher punishments.

Might be worth sending in a ticket either way, although if you've had a recent 14-day ban I suspect you won't have much luck.

MatthewXY1 votes

I did have a 14 day suspension like... 2-3 months ago? For an exactly same situation. Was supporting a random ADC that was less than adequate, and as the support I took the heat for it. Got flamed for 50minutes and I got the ban. I put a thread up for that too and people just warned me not to be so vulgar next time I get flamed. I do that, still get punished.

I admit I used a little more vulgar language that time, which I was told was the reason I got the 14 day suspension, which I accepted, and as you see this game, I went through an entire game composed in my messaging vulgar-wise, just defending myself.

ModThe Djinn3 votes

{quoted}I put a thread up for that too and people just warned me not to be so vulgar next time I get flamed. I do that, still get punished.

Unfortunately that advice isn't entirely accurate. Simply not being vulgar isn't sufficient -- your issue here is that, in "defending" yourself, what you were really doing is directly blame onto your Draven.

Whether or not he was playing poorly, intentionally trolling, or just having an off day, that sort of constant blame-placing is something Riot doesn't want in their game. There are a number of ways to convey the same "self defense" while not redirecting anger towards your Draven as you do so. Even "Sorry -- Draven and I aren't really in sync, and so I'm usually dead before he's responded" is a better response, and that one even quietly acknowledges that he's not reacting in time.

I would consider sending in a ticket, as this is a somewhat borderline case, but it really does come down slightly on the side of unnecessarily throwing your Draven to the wolves.

MatthewXY1 votes

The Draven was flaming me before I was flaming him, saying stuff like "I had to burn my heal to save your stupidity from dieing" ...like what that's what heal is for. Lol, I burned exhaust to save him but you don't see me complaining about that.

I guess Riot will see that with the complete logs to their disposal, so it may be worth to send a ticket. Quick question, how does one do that? Lol, been playing League for years never had to do something like this before.

ModWulf Helhammer1 votes

The Draven was flaming me before I was flaming him

Yeah that doesn't matter. You are in complete control of your actions, so you are judged for them just as much. You break the rules, you face the consequences.

MatthewXY1 votes

So if what's really wrong with all this, is my encounter with the Draven. If someone is saying "oh you die cause you're bad and you suck" etc. etc.... HOW is me saying "Well, you don't help" , "Maybe engage when they engage me." (when they're diving tower and he's full health at level 4) --- any of this against the rules? If he doesn't want someone saying that to him, maybe he should do something instead of letting me die to prove a point he's trying to make.

That's like someone saying "Don't say that I'm a %%%%phile! I'm offended" , but then you stalk kids on social media on your free time. He didn't help me, I addressed it to him in hopes of altering his game play and us advancing in the game. There was no attack on his character, no insult to his intelligence.

ModWulf Helhammer2 votes

Djinn already addressed the problems in your chat logs. Refer back to his analysis.

MatthewXY1 votes

Yea I get it. Just no justice in this system.

ModThe Djinn1 votes

{quoted}

Yea I get it. Just no justice in this system.

There is actually a decent amount of justice. If you report him, he will be judged and punished according to his own behavior. Each player is judged for the actions they choose to take.

MatthewXY1 votes

Well based on a number of posts on this thread saying "well i dont see anything warranting a permanent ban, but based on this formula and automated system it is what it is."

If I receive a human response explaining why an action as strong as being permanetly banned has been taken, fine i accept it. But I fail to accept that a numbers reporting game is going to cast punishment appropriately.

Being said, I sent in a ticket based on what you guys were saying, and I'm waiting to see if they'll even do me the decency of responding to it.

Chermorg1 votes

But "you don't help" doesn't alter his gameplay - it just makes him feel like he's being blamed without anyone helping him be better.

Things like "hey, we need to group please" or "hey ik u split really well but we need ur damage in teamfights" - that stuff helps and isn't negative. Saying only "maybe engage when they engage me" - again, that's accusatory and blaming. There's a big difference between positive, helpful communication, and communication that assigns blame/accuses people of things.

MatthewXY1 votes

I admit it's a little hard for me to wrap my head around, I work in law enforcement, and we abide by this thing called the primary aggressor. So for example if someone comes up to you and is like "hit me! hit me!" and is hitting you, and you in response punch him in his face, you don't get charged for assault as the first individual was the primary aggressor.

In this situation the Draven is "flaming statement" -- "flaming statement". And I respond as to "You don't help", "Maybe engage when they engage us". Him being the primary aggressor is fine, and I get in trouble for defending myself. This is barely me "hitting him back" as much as me "swatting his hands away". Maybe it's just this anti-"im the victim" mentality I have but I'm just gonna have to make my chat scale 0.1% and just ignore it in my future endeavors.

Chermorg1 votes

Now, see, that's getting into laws - which vary by jurisdiction.

Further, if they had a way to instantly stop the person from hitting them, and instantly leave the situation (lets say, for example, they could teleport away), then they would be at fault as they didn't have to retaliate. Secondly, in the case of assault, there is legitimate bodily harm that is coming to someone, and possibly threat of death. There's no harm that comes being flamed in a video game that would justify self defense.

MatthewXY1 votes

That's because verbal assault in 99% of the time not a crime, which is why if I can't retaliate to him because what he is doing "is not a crime" (or punishable). Then by default, even if you want to justify my actions are as bad as his, then mine are also "not a crime" (or punishable). So if his actions were wrong, then mine were right in defending myself. and if his weren't wrong, then neither are mine by case law.

and you make a point about retreating instead of advancing, and he is cursing at me and criticizing my gameplay, I didn't go after him saying things like "oh you're a downie adc etc. etc." I just said "you don't help." "engage them when they engage us." I didn't advance at all on him, just told him what he was doing that was attributing to us getting pushed in lane.

Chermorg1 votes

Your defense, legally, generally has to meet a couple criteria - there must be some legitimate harm coming to you (or fear of), and your response must be of a reasonable nature.

Your reasonable response is muting and reporting - not flaming him back.

I will also mention that League doesn't follow along exactly (or really at all) with the criminal justice system, and rightfully so - it's too lenient for League's purposes. League doesn't want to just punish the instigator - they punish all toxicity because it's as if there's a fight at the bar - both participants are contributing to the negative environment for the patrons, and so regardless of which one gets arrested, they're both going to get kicked out.

MatthewXY1 votes

I don't know, I mean everyone can tell me, and if that's the way it is then fine that's it. But I still don't see how someone can say "you're so bad you freaking suck you trash" and me simply responding "you don't go in." "you don't help me in 1v2 scenarios" is flaming. I fail to see the nature of how that's flaming.

Chermorg2 votes

It's not necessarily flaming, but it's certainly negative attitude - something doesn't have to be outright flaming to still bring team morale down and be punishable. An occasional "you don't go in" isn't going to get you punished, but when the entire game has you blaming teammates and telling them they're bad, it's not good.

The biggest thing that would be easiest for you to change is don't talk about the past - talk about the future. Don't say "you never go in", say "hey, you're pretty strong/have cc/are tanky/can initiate, please try initiating when you get the opportunity" (or similar). Instead of "you aren't helping", say "mid if u roam bot it really help us".

See how just by changing it from talking about the past, to talking about the future, it made it a lot less negative, and a lot more "we can do this" (to quote our favorite Lux)?

MatthewXY1 votes

But that's when it becomes a thing about perception. Me saying "you don't go in" means "in the future, go in please?" and saying "you don't help in 1v2 scenarios" means "if you see them coming with 3 people, try to match that." All this is negative because it's read over the internet and the opposition reads it with a negative connotation. That's why you can't "justly" cast judgement on someone over what they said over the internet unless it's a word they directly say, not "what the inflection might mean". I can say to someone "you're so cute" and mean it in the most reducing, condescending manner possible, but by your logic that's A-Ok!

ModThe Djinn1 votes

{quoted}

The Draven was flaming me before I was flaming him, saying stuff like "I had to burn my heal to save your stupidity from dieing" ...like what that's what heal is for. Lol, I burned exhaust to save him but you don't see me complaining about that.

His actions do not excuse yours, however. Again, yours aren't THAT bad in the big scheme of things, but the "I did nothing that wasn't justified" response won't get you far in a ban appeal.

I guess Riot will see that with the complete logs to their disposal, so it may be worth to send a ticket. Quick question, how does one do that? Lol, been playing League for years never had to do something like this before.

You can use this link. Note, however, that the context of HIS actions don't matter -- all that matters is YOUR actions. You have to choose to respond, and in this case you chose to put blame on your Draven when you responded.

Grim Reaper 81 votes

if this silver kid will tell you what you did wrong then go uinstall and enver play again

MatthewXY1 votes

This statement is going to need a little more context, no idea who or what you're addressing.

Grim Reaper 81 votes

When you read coments go and see there ranks if they are not diamon 1 or above just dont listen to them easy

MatthewXY2 votes

Meh I don't necessarily believe that. That's attributing power to authority. Just because someone has a title, that makes their opinion on justice and morality less than that of someone else. That's how we ended up with Hitler.

ModThe Djinn1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Grim Reaper 8,realm=EUNE,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=zVzkib8R,comment-id=00030001,timestamp=2017-10-30T21:37:55.225+0000)

if this silver kid will tell you what you did wrong then go uinstall and enver play again

I'm Silver, yes: I'm probably a tiny bit lower than I could be, but frankly I just don't care that much about ranked.

I am, however, very knowledgeable about what the behavioral system looks for and punishes for, which isn't a thing that rank has anything to do with. It's also the topic of this discussion.

Finally, I will give you a friendly caution against insulting other community members by rank-shaming or referring to them as kids. It's not something we like to see on the Boards.

Xurreal2 votes

Maybe you can get a pardon. In all honesty, your attitude was not toxic, but the discussion that you carried on was. The reason I say that is because

First, you started to talk about how poorly your team was doing. Even if you weren't doing it in a toxic manner, the act of consistently pointing out mistakes that your team makes is a huge gray area.

Now that would have been all fine and dandy, you probably just would have gotten these chat logs checked in to your investigative file. Unfortunately, you kept going. Pointing out mistakes slowly but definitively became pointing fingers and pointing blame. Your actions per minute decreased while your words per minute increased. This is seen generally as negative behavior.

Certainly, while you technically didn't do anything in this game deserving of a permanent ban, I highly suspect that your account was on high alert. And if your account is on high alert and you catch a legitimate report, even if it you wouldn't catch an instant permanent ban, the status of you being on high alert triggered the auto van system.

All the way up until you are on high alert you get the benefit of the doubt. But once you are high alert, you no longer have that benefit of the doubt and are considered a problematic case. This is done intentionally to force players who get banned in this fashion to file a ticket with support so that you can speak to a human about the situation.

Their only job is to determine whether or not the report that triggered your band was justified, not if you are a toxic individual, or if you have always had good behavior in the past. High alert takes priority over any honorable status you may have been in in the past. That is why we lose our honor when we catch a penalty.

You sound like a stand-up guy. Maybe you just had a rough day, or a rough time in that game. So I'm going to give you all of my vote in hopes that they will overturn that decision based on those chat logs. Because I don't really see anything TOO inflammatory about the chat logs except at the end therwle... they especially don't sounds like something one of the 0.006% would say.

Good luck! Make It Count. I am rooting for you. I can just hope and pray that you haven't been toxic another games recently. Best of luck

But it doesn't look too good.

MatthewXY1 votes

Thank you, I appreciate it, I don't even in the slightest understand how Riot would catch wind of this or to send in an appeal. The one thing I have to address to you, is that these chat logs dont show my teammates chat, and that they were complaining about me, and I was only responding back to them. For example what actually happened:

Died warding enemy blue buff from 5 man jump

Teammate 1: Oh wow, inting already Teammate 2: Game didnt even start, inting already. MatthewXY: sigh

3 nearby teammates refused to throw abilities out against 3 of them that were chasing me (so woulda been 4v3 our advantage) MatthewXY: #2017nohelp :P

Teammate: That NA flash was god awful too.

MatthewXY: yea that was a sigh MatthewXY: but you see how their teammates help accomplish an end goal

This is pretty much the mentality of the whole game

Bronze 6 Yasuo2 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Bix44C1EzY&autoplay=1

MatthewXY1 votes

Thanks. Lol

Bronze 6 Yasuo1 votes

Whenever is see one of these posts I'm just going to send this video. Tomorrow I will release a discussion on how to not make this happen to you and hopefully these kinds of posts will reduce.

lolipopevelynn2 votes

bans are automated, any rioter that tells you otherwise is lying to your face. after 14 day ban your account will be in a negative status for many months untill its reformed. if you get enough reports, e ven if its unreasonable, during this time you will be upgraded to a perm ban by the system. HOWEVER, if you reform according to the system your account standings will be reset and you will go back to getting 10 game chat restrictions.

so if you just got off a 2 week ban it is seriously to your best intrested to click mute all and say absolutely nothing except call out objectives. calling out objectives is the only thing you need to do in chat anyway. you can say nothing at all in chat, but it will take longer for the system to see if you have reformed or not. so you need to say something in chat, ant that something is simply objective calling.

what you can do is have a rioter manually review your perm ban and let them decide if it was deserved or not. i will tell you right now tho that you type way too much. system is also triggered by the volume of your typing, and you type entire college essays in chat my man. not only that, but PLAYERS also get triggered when you type too much. even if you are being positive its just annoing and distracting, so if they see your name pop up in chat 90% of the time they will be inclined to report that name even if they dont read the chat. what you want to happen is be as discreet as possible. players are going to rage no matter what and they are always going to want to find a target and scapegoat someone, so you want the attention to be on THEM and not you. that way they will be reported for talking to much instead of you.

the "best" report to get reported for is a report for int feeding. the system will never ban you for int feeding even if you are inting, so if you are not inting there is zero chance you will get punished for it. so if you say nothing in chat and someone says he is going to report you for inting just because you had a bad game you dont even have to acknowledge that as a threat and move on as if it was a neutral honor or something.

MatthewXY1 votes

Alright noted, I kinda get the whole chain-ban things and what they result in. But like I've said to everyone else here. Everything I typed, was in response to a comment one of my teammates directed at me. You can't see that because of the nature of the logs, but every line I typed, my teammates hit me with a flamatory comment 3x over.

archerno12 votes

{quoted}

Alright noted, I kinda get the whole chain-ban things and what they result in. But like I've said to everyone else here. Everything I typed, was in response to a comment one of my teammates directed at me. You can't see that because of the nature of the logs, but every line I typed, my teammates hit me with a flamatory comment 3x over.

It doesnt matter why you did it. It never does. Proper way to deal with someone else being toxic towards you is to MUTE and REPORT them when game finishes. Thats all.

MatthewXY1 votes

Granted you can't go wrong with what you're saying, I'm sure in this case it would still be irrelevant. I'm sure if I decided to mute my entire team 1/3 of that text, the three problem children all still would have reported me, and the same action would have been taken just because the nature of the number of reports after a game. Which brings me back to my main issue being where in this is justification of a permanent ban of an account with no human interaction on deciding that so, when clearly majority of the people commenting on this thread fairly seem to see anything warranting a perm ban.

ModWulf Helhammer1 votes

Reports don't do anything if there's nothing to punish. 1 report equals 9, and as long as you didn't do anything to break the rules, nothing would have happened.

Instead, you decided to also flame and break the rules, and have to deal with the ensuing punishment.

archerno11 votes

{quoted}

Granted you can't go wrong with what you're saying, I'm sure in this case it would still be irrelevant. I'm sure if I decided to mute my entire team 1/3 of that text, the three problem children all still would have reported me, and the same action would have been taken just because the nature of the number of reports after a game. Which brings me back to my main issue being where in this is justification of a permanent ban of an account with no human interaction on deciding that so, when clearly majority of the people commenting on this thread fairly seem to see anything warranting a perm ban.

See, now you mentioned "number of reports". Number of reports in one game doesnt matter. Rioter that wrote code for reports have shown us the code. 9 reports have equal value as 1. And report only leads to review, not to ban. So only if you broke rules can you get banned.

Drugoth1 votes

You do understand how Draven's passive works right? From sound of this chatlog you really don't. If the Draven isn't following up on your catches, it's probably because he doesn't agree it's a good time to go in. You spend the entire time whining about how Draven won't follow up on your plays. It's pretty annoying tbh. Although this is a pretty minor chat offense, the way these things go is if you've just come off a 14 day ban, your next infraction is gonna push you over to that permaban.

Let this be a lesson to you, in the future instead of constantly harassing a teammate about their play try to focus instead on what you do have agency over: yourself.

MatthewXY1 votes

3sheets, this is why I don't agree with the logs being how they are. Because literally everything I typed in that logs, was in response to something someone on my team initiated with me first. Draven would say 2-3 things before I would respond to him, him being much more mean, much more flaming.

And I do know how Dravens passive works, but if it's between him dieing, or me dieing, maybe you can let one axe hit the ground, an assure the teams survival. missing one stack on axe isn't going to ruin his game.

Drugoth1 votes

You just gotta be the bigger guy and not get into it with him, 2 wrongs don't make a right.

MatthewXY1 votes

I get the two wrongs dont make a right, I just fail to see how someone criticizing me non stop, and my response of "you don't help" is a wrong. I'll just have to move forward knowing that, someone thinking their a victim "makes" them a victim. Just going to break all my keys that aren't keybinded to an action. Lol

Eedat1 votes

What prior punishments do you have?

MatthewXY1 votes

I did have a 14 day suspension like... 2-3 months ago? For an exactly same situation. Was supporting a random ADC that was less than adequate, and as the support I took the heat for it. Got flamed for 50minutes and I got the ban. I put a thread up for that too and people just warned me not to be so vulgar next time I get flamed. I do that, still get punished.

I admit I used a little more vulgar language that time, which I was told was the reason I got the 14 day suspension, which I accepted, and as you see this game, I went through an entire game composed in my messaging vulgar-wise, just defending myself.

xXPeterNorthXx1 votes

it's funny to read cheerleader comments on here, trying to paint normal conversation as some sort of toxicity which needs to be punished

MatthewXY1 votes

I mean it is what it is, just curious about the justifications of the perm ban.

Tsujigiri Yi1 votes

if you just muted and just kept playing you wouldve been fine.instead you chose to argue with em and kept goin on and on.bet that if you were to say fuck you and mute all you wouldnt be banned.anyways you're only silver 5 so even if you get banned and hopefully you didnt spend money on your account,then you haven't lost much.

MatthewXY1 votes

That's the thing, me having to mute and then be silent with teammates because we disagree about the intensity/aggressiveness/style of play we should go forward with. Like this victim mentality is ridiculous, there's shouldn't be an optional "show all chat" filter if they're worried about this feelings of others over what's said over a video game.

ModPeriscope1 votes

Your chat is mostly dedicated to criticism of Draven, and constantly arguing. I can understand you wanting your adc to go in when you do, but I don't see any chat related to planning that.

MatthewXY1 votes

Because I'm not gonna initiate conversation criticizing gameplay, I understand that some people have different styles and whatever happens, it is what it is.

My problem is when other people don't get that (my Draven), and he attacks me verbally more than he attacks the enemy bot lane, and he flames me, and everything I say to him in in response to his statements. Nothing I said/None of the negative conversations were initiated by me.

My chat was mostly dedicated to Draven criticizing not only my gameplay, but me as an individual, attacking my intelligence and character, and an onsalught of vulgar adjectives. I don't have time to "plan" a good offensive play when he refuses to lane with me, and leaves me to the wolves.

ModPeriscope1 votes

You keep referencing who started this argument, but we know from your end there wasn't an attempt to stop it.

When someone decides to criticize instead of contributing in a meaningful way, arguing typically doesn't help that situation. Surely you have noticed that. Hopefully your Draven learned that. It's like fighting fire with fire.

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