Title.
Fix your system and get a better support team.
EDIT: I am not banned, I have not been punished at all. But the issue is apparent no one cares about the system being quite flawed.
o0O Madoka O0o5 votesIf you are playing with friends, offensive languages with no bad intention should not cause you trouble, since AI operates on reports, and if no one reports you, you are fine.
If you are playing with friends and with strangers, they might be offended even if they are not the target. Explaining your situation would help.
If you are playing with strangers, do say even mildly offensive things, because you don't know them well enough. Some are more easily offended than others. Don't upset others for no good reason.
Asudurga1 votesNow you would be right on explaining the situation, but there have been multiple posts on this area of the boards on how crappy Riot support is.
o0O Madoka O0o3 votesNow you would be right on explaining the situation, but there have been multiple posts on this area of the boards on how crappy Riot support is.
If you compare the number of complaints to the size of the player base, it's actually one of the better player supports.
Well, I probably speak too much from the company's perspective, but player supports is really hard to manage in a large game, it requires crazy amount of human resources.
One way to get attention is to post the detailed situation on Reddit and the board.
Kei1436 votesyou'd also have to keep in mind that alot of them are just angry cos they got permabanned and support won't do anything for them.
CmmDmmCD4 votesI could get banned or punished for extreme harrasment and claim i'm innocent babe on the forums without any evidence. If you truly get a unjust punishment you would include screenshots of the cases that got you punished. (notified ingame).
Asudurga1 votesRead the edit, you now owe me an apology.
o0O Madoka O0o5 votesRead the edit, you now owe me an apology.
I don't think they owe you an apology if you didn't include it in your post at the time he replied.
CmmDmmCD6 votesI second this, Also to answer to your edit: Just because alot of ppl cry wolf on the forums about the system doesnt make it flawed. Everytime that I've been punished are times where I replied to toxic flame, with MORE toxic flame. Ergo although i dont regret hurting their feelings, I fully agree that my behavior was toxic.
IMO the system is working as designed.
higura4 votesI should not be playing in fear of being banned by an automated system for the wrong reasons.
such as?,
Fix your system and get a better support team.
EDIT: I am not banned, I have not been punished at all. But the issue is apparent no one cares about the system being quite flawed.
you need to tell us what your concerns are exactly, what is it for actions you`re doing that you belive can get you banned for "wrong" reasons?, what is it you belive need "fixing" and where is the evidence to support such a "fix" is needed?...
your post is the equivalent to just pointing at something and going "i think i dont like this and therefore must be changed", its plain out a nonsense claim...
LostFr0st3 votescontext is required.
Asudurga1 votesRead the edit.
LostFr0st5 votesI've been playing since early season 4 and I've never received any kind of punishment; neither has my brother who has been playing since season 2/3.
If you're going to say the system is flawed you'll need to point out specifics. The Rioters who made the system have told us numerous times that if a flaw is found they want to know about it so that they can fix it.
Registeel12343 votesI've been playing since late season 1 and never got punished. The system works great. I only remember one case that a player was wrongfully banned, and Rito unbanned him. Every other cases were justified.
o Maui o3 votesPunished players can get a human to look into their ban by contacting Riot support. That being said, the false positive rate is absurdly low, and many of the complaints are levied by people who disagree with what the community at large considers toxic.
SugarRayMoe1 votesThe automatic system is totally dumb. To begin with it scales with repetition, I mean, if I fame you saying "noob" enough times, I will be permabanned in the end. That's like applying death penalty for killing a large enough number of ants. That's stupid.
Still, I have seen people telling others to commit suicide, all that cancer and rape stuff, and they continue playing with no problem even after being reported.
The system simply doesnt work. It's cheap, and that's the only reason they use this system. They dont give a F about their players, they think that they have a lot and that they can afford it. Yes, I've seen other games thinking the same way, isnt it ghostcrawler? still, people plain stopped playing those games once they got fed of them and their "i dont care about my playerbase" strategy.
o Maui o4 votesBear in mind that to get to the permaban level for consistent mild toxicity, a player first has to ignore several pointed warnings, including a 14-day suspension that comes with an explicit "if you continue this behavior, the next suspension will be permanent". It isn't anything like a death penalty or a prison sentence; it's like being asked to leave a grocery store because every time you come in you're a jerk to the other customers.
SugarRayMoe1 votesEven if you continue with the "you are a noob" behaviour you should never get a permaban for that. That's common sense, yes, you're a jerk, but not this kind of jerk that deserves a permaban. I've seen this kind of "light flaming" to trigger a permaban, and that's stupid, and a machine cannot make the difference. The only advantage of this system, as I've said, is that it's cheap, very cheap compared to others. I hope they will pay for it, though, in terms of playerbase shrinking, a company that puts its players' fate on a machine's hands, well deserve that.
o Maui o5 votesThat's common sense, yes, you're a jerk, but not this kind of jerk that deserves a permaban.
Well, the community at large disagrees with you and does not want to see these behaviors in the game. And, again, players are given several notifications that their behavior is unwelcome and unacceptable, and several opportunities to change their toxic behavior patterns. The automated system you're referring to does not hold players' fates in its hands; the players are responsible for their own fates.
SugarRayMoe1 votesNo they arent. Are you "the lol community", btw? just curious.
TrulyBland3 votesHe isn't, but I'd say the people that report those people are the lol community. Just like the people that voted on the Tribunal are, and the people that post on these forums. And ultimately, the people that Riot polled are the lol community. If you believe the community doesn't support this system, you are delusional.
Here's the thing: Frequency is an extremely important factor. Would you prefer being once stolen 1000$, or would you prefer having 10$ stolen from you every single day of the year? That btw, is common sense.
SugarRayMoe1 votesI bet the tribuanl would never permaban you for calling "noob".
Plus, you can get reported for tons of reaons. Tons. And they have not to be that you are toxic.
TrulyBland2 votesNo, because the tribunal never permabanned anybody. But it could very well punish a player, which after a two-week ban would have a Rioter review the case and decide whether a permaban was necessary. And guess what that depended on back then: Frequency of negative behaviour.
And reports are not the same as punishments. Reports are evaluated by the system. I don't even know what your point is, to be honest.
SugarRayMoe1 votesMy point is that killing 1 thousand ants doesnt deserve death penaly, while killing one single person may deserve it (or not).
My point is that frequency of negative but not so negative behaviour (that 99% comes from the frustration the game itself generates by its own design) should not impact in the punishment to the point of being a permaban, and my point is that a learning machine algorithm cannot fulfill the requirements for measuring human behavior, so it's not a valid system.
TrulyBland2 votesYou're vastly underestimating the capabilities of machine learning. You're also forgetting that initially every single permaban was reviewed by a human, and they were still deemed correct.
And the ant analogy, as well as the equating of a permaban to a death penalty, is just an attempt to lead my own analogy that you never adressed ad absurdum, by making it less relatable and tangible.
So again: Would you prefer being once stolen 1000$, or would you prefer having 10$ stolen from you every single day for an entire year? Which of the two should be punished worse? Especially when the person stealing 10$ every single day is receiving stronger and stronger punishments and still refuses to stop stealing.
SugarRayMoe1 votesI would put in jail more time the one that stole 1000$ than the one that stole 10$. If a guy steals 100 times 10$ then he would get the same ammount of time as the one that stole 1000$. Punishing the one that stole 10$ 50 times the same ammount of time as the one that stole 1000$ one time would be unfair, the same way as permabanning a guy for repeating "noob" (1 penny) when there are people constantly being extremely toxic suicide, cancer, rape stuff (like a million $).
EvilDustMan2 votesI would put in jail more time the one that stole 1000$ than the one that stole 10$. If a guy steals 100 times 10$ then he would get the same ammount of time as the one that stole 1000$. Punishing the one that stole 10$ 50 times the same ammount of time as the one that stole 1000$ one time would be unfair, the same way as permabanning a guy for repeating "noob" (1 penny) when there are people constantly being extremely toxic suicide, cancer, rape stuff (like a million $).
It's not the same analogy. Look. If you want to be an annoying ass and call people noobs, you are going to eventually get chat restricted. Because we don't want players like that.
SugarRayMoe1 votesYes, and I agree. And if you keep on your behaviour you should be banned. What I'm stating is that you should NEVER be permabanned or be banned a ridiculous amount of time, because commonsense says that it's not an offense that deserves that kind of punishment. With "the machine" deciding the punishments, the permaban will happen yes or yes sooner or later (at least to people once toxic and now reformed), and that's not fair, and that leads to people being afraid of interacting with other people, which, imho, is way worse than toxicity in an online game.
EvilDustMan2 votesYes, and I agree. And if you keep on your behaviour you should be banned. What I'm stating is that you should NEVER be permabanned or be banned a ridiculous amount of time, because commonsense says that it's not an offense that deserves that kind of punishment. With "the machine" deciding the punishments, the permaban will happen yes or yes sooner or later (at least to people once toxic and now reformed), and that's not fair, and that leads to people being afraid of interacting with other people, which, imho, is way worse than toxicity in an online game.
Yes, but the machine is geared to take that sort of thing over a long time. The way the system works is you are PUNISHED. If you keep getting punished for saying noob and hit a permaban, whose fault is it? You should get banned for not having the common sense to STOP. It's like gg ez. You aren't going to get banned for just saying gg ez, but it does contribution to your progress towards another punishment. It may take a while, but if you didn't get it the first three punishments, I don't see the problem.
TrulyBland2 votesAh, good to know that you are the globally recognized authority on measuring and comparing negative behaviour to each other.
I mean, anybody without common sense would probably assume that this should be up to Riot, given that they have access to all the statistics, like reports and reform rate, as well as polls. But obviously the only objective source for such information is an angry person's rant on the forums.
You also ignore the part where I stated the 10$ guy already received increasing punishments and (as a result) a lot of second chances and still is doing exactly the same shit as before. In real life if you commit the same crime over and over again and show that you ignore smaller punishments, you will be getting heavier punishments over time.
SugarRayMoe1 votesLet's not be naives. Riot is not there to make justice, riot is there to make money. You know why the automated system is there and not the old system? it's not because it's better, it's because it's CHEAPER. A lot cheaper actually.
Regarding the statistics and numbers, do you really thing that they would tell you "yes, this system is unfair, we know, but we save tons of money"? You know why there's not a single organization using a learing machine algorithm to deliver punishment? because it cant. Easy as that.
In "virtual" life is different, since they feel no remorse at all. They just make money and dont give a F if a % of its playerbase is treated in an unfair way.
TrulyBland2 votesLet's not be naives. Riot is not there to make justice, riot is there to make money. You know why the automated system is there and not the old system? it's not because it's better, it's because it's CHEAPER. A lot cheaper actually.
Regarding the statistics and numbers, do you really thing that they would tell you "yes, this system is unfair, we know, but we save tons of money"? You know why there's not a single organization using a learing machine algorithm to deliver punishment? because it cant. Easy as that.
In "virtual" life is different, since they feel no remorse at all. They just make money and dont give a F if a % of its playerbase is treated in an unfair way.
Really? Maintaining an automated system is cheaper than having the community do it? Besides, I don't really think it's a good business model to ban your customers unfairly.
Also okay, let's do it like this: Find me a punishment the community doesn't agree with. If the automated system is truly so horrible, you should be able to come up with cases that are uncontroversially unfair. Because so far your argument against this system's capabilities is that you personally disagree with its decisions.
And your last point is... I don't know what that is. It looks like it's an attempt to retort against my point that real life punishes repeat offenders in the exact same manner, but then you try to somehow twist that into an argument about "virtual" corporations being evil?
SugarRayMoe1 votesOh god, sure it's cheaper. A LOT cheaper.
It's not a good business model, you're right, but we dont have the numbers to know if since they implemented the system they won or lost players. Do we? no we dont since they hide those numbers since long ago.
As long as you make numbers and you earn money, you can afford to lose that playerbase.
This forum is full of posts of undeserved bans. Yes, those threads that always end with "well, it's not so bad, but you knew you couldnt do that since you got 14 days bans". Those threads, are all cases of unfair punishment. You know what threads i'm talking about.
Mate, virtual corporations ARE evil.
TrulyBland2 votesOh god, sure it's cheaper. A LOT cheaper.
It's not a good business model, you're right, but we dont have the numbers to know if since they implemented the system they won or lost players. Do we? no we dont since they hide those numbers since long ago.
As long as you make numbers and you earn money, you can afford to lose that playerbase.
This forum is full of posts of undeserved bans. Yes, those threads that always end with "well, it's not so bad, but you knew you couldnt do that since you got 14 days bans". Those threads, are all cases of unfair punishment. You know what threads i'm talking about.
Mate, virtual corporations ARE evil.
Okay, I'm starting to believe you have some trouble with reading comprehension:
You disagreeing with bans doesn't make them unfair. And I never made any point about corporations. My point has been and still is: Repeat offenders get harsher punishments in real life as well.
I also don't get how maintaining an automated system like this is cheaper than having the community do things for you (which on top of everything allows you to just go "Well, the community doesn't like it" whenever an unfair punishment happens).
You state a lot of assumptions, but provide no arguments that would support your points. It's all just pointless circular logic.
SugarRayMoe1 votesbtw, I'm not understimating machine learning, believe me I dont. I'm very aware of what it can do and what it cant. And I promise you, believe me, that there's no AI system good enough to evaluate human behaviour.
vampirekid132 votesbtw, I'm not understimating machine learning, believe me I dont. I'm very aware of what it can do and what it cant. And I promise you, believe me, that there's no AI system good enough to evaluate human behaviour.
can you please explain in depth how developing a machine learning system from scratch is CHEAPER than having a bunch of unpaid volunteers doing the work for FREE.
SugarRayMoe1 votesIt's automatic. You dont need any person to control it, it will work by its own day and night. You have to review the volunteers work, hire them (even for free), manage them, and you need engineers to develop a sh+t ton of tools that you have to give them so that they can get their work done. On the other hand, an automated system only needs a team of engineers (not a lot, if the system is good enough you dont need more than a couple of them and part time), to maintain it, plus, the longer it's working the more profitable for you.
To develop the system is expensive, but every day it's working it's paying by itself. Plus, it SCALES, a bunch of volunteers doesnt scale.
Seriously, I cannot understand how is it possible that I have to explain in XXI century why automation is cheaper than slaves.
vampirekid132 votesIt's automatic.
yes this is true.
You dont need any person to control it, it will work by its own day and night.
partially wrong, riot still has to review perma bans.
You have to review the volunteers work,
riot never once did this under the old tribunal system.
hire them (even for free), manage them,
2 other things riot never did. it was a very basic system, it was whoever felt like logging into the system would vote, and if majority voted to punish the person would get punished. i could make a website like that in about 1 hour at most.
and you need engineers to develop a sh+t ton of tools that you have to give them so that they can get their work done.
you have your rose colored glasses on bro, riot never did any of this, the system was terrible.
SugarRayMoe1 votesMate, my job is to automate things. That's how I earn my money. It's amazing that there are people like you in XXI century still.
Riot has EVERYTHING automated, you know? from reporting system to game deployment, including testing and stuff. EVERYTHING. You know why? IT'S CHEAPER!!!! whether you believe or not. "I can make a website like that in about one hour" WRONG!
vampirekid131 votesRiot has EVERYTHING automated, you know? from reporting system to game deployment, including testing and stuff. EVERYTHING. You know why? IT'S CHEAPER!!!! whether you believe or not. "I can make a website like that in about one hour" WRONG!
the old tribunal system was a mess. it didnt work and riot put nothing into developing it at all.
as far as being cheap it was a lot cheaper than what they developed. they paid NO ONE at all. and wasted absolutely no resources on it even when it was obvious it needed work to get it where it should be.
so, moving on from this, obviously they have everything automated regarding bans. they only review permabans. obviously it was not "cheaper" than contracting the work out to unpaid volunteers that had nothing in return. thats ridiculous thats like saying a state of the art robot factory in america is cheaper than slave labor.
so, riot didnt automate things because it was cheap, they automated because the system just didnt work. there werent enough volunteers, they had embarrassing PR nightmares where people had their bans reversed on the forums because people voted punish when they were innocent. the whole system was a complete mess. thats why it got automated and changed completely, because it didnt work. not because it was cheaper. because nothing is ever cheaper than free. which is what tribunal was.
enjoy that rose tint tho. i dont even think you were around for the tribunal, if you were you wouldnt be so darn clueless.
vampirekid131 votesI bet the tribuanl would never permaban you for calling "noob".
Plus, you can get reported for tons of reaons. Tons. And they have not to be that you are toxic.
LOLOLOLOL.
THE TRIBUNAL, IN SEASON 2 USED TO BAN YOU FOR ITEMS YOU WOULD BUILD IF THEY WERENT META.
chew on that.
SugarRayMoe1 votesI highly doubt that.
vampirekid132 votesI highly doubt that.
were you here in season 2? because you seem fairly clueless as to how the tribunal actually worked.
Jorencice1 votesYou obviously have been on the forumns long.
Any "i should be allowed to be toxic" threads get hundreds of downvotes.
I mean this one only has like 20 posts and is -8.
Thus meaning the majority isnt on his side.
SugarRayMoe1 votesThe majority enjoys other people's suffering. And the majority would create an "Omg, i was banned for nothing, please pelase unban me, rito" post once banned.
I have been banned from the forums, and warned several times (last one today). I cannot write in the EUW forums because they banned me for a month. BUT, I have NEVER been warned nor banned ingame. I NEVER EVER EVER EVER flame in a game. Well, I got a restriction (deserved, I left it on purpose) because of leaving a game , tbh. But I'm not writting this because I'm toxic or want to be toxic without consequences. I just write this because it's common sense. Saying "Noob" is not permaban worthy, it doesnt matter how many times you say it, you dont need to be emmanuel kant to figure out that. And saying "noob" can make you permabanned if you are very high in the punishment ladder in this system.
EDIT: on the other hand, telling other people to commit suicide, and all that cancer and raping stuff are permaban worthy even if you get into it only once. Still, I've seen plenty of people bein that toxic, being reported and getting no punishment at all. It's simple, the machine learning algorithm just CANT make the difference, it's not a valid system, sorry.
Jorencice2 votesTitle.
Fix your system and get a better support team.
EDIT: I am not banned, I have not been punished at all. But the issue is apparent no one cares about the system being quite flawed.
Have over 5k games played.
Never been even chat restricted cuz im not an asshole.
Profit?
The system is fine.
SugarRayMoe1 votesI am more than X years old. I have never been bombed in a bus or train. Still, I should not live in fear of being bombed in a bus or train.
You got it?. The OP is totally right, a machine should never be in charge of bans, NEVER.
Jorencice1 votesYour anology is terrible.
Machines arent more likely to ban you.
Actually people are. Because people are emotional critters.
Your could call someome whiny and a machine would run it through its system and realize its not bad.
But a human might remember bullies calling him whiny and thus chose to punish you.
If YOU FOLLOW THE FUCKING RULES YOU ARE 99.9% IMMUNE TO BANS.
Period end of story.
So it shouldnt even matter whos in charge of tribunal.
Simply dont be an asshole.
SugarRayMoe1 votes99.9% is not enough, sorry.
And if you think that a machine is more fair than a human just because it has no feelings.. well... you are wrong, very very wrong.
TrulyBland1 votesThen you should probably live in permanent fear of being locked up forever for a crime you didn't commit. No system is perfect.
Kei1432 voteswhat are you fearing?
perhaps you are just misinformed?