Is it reportable if someone who throws the game being called "idiot" ?

verysalt·Dec 2, 2017·1 votes·1,006 views

Title, if it's reportable, how severe it is ?

(talking about those situations when idiots goes 1v3,4,5 , ignores your pings, face check bushes etc).

42 Comments

ModThe DjinnDec 2, 20174 votes

Is calling another player an idiot an insult? Yes. Is insulting another player punishable behavior? Yes.

There are less negative and less insulting ways to voice your frustration at another player's decision-making. Use them.

Sorin AlucardDec 2, 20172 votes

Thats misleading.

Please, give me a list of acceptable diction thats negative in context yet passible

Kei143Dec 2, 20174 votes

"why you face check idiot"

"probably a good idea to use your Q and check if there is an enemy there"

insult vs constructive feedback.

verysaltDec 2, 20171 votes

{quoted}

"why you face check idiot"

vs

"probably a good idea to use your Q and check if there is an enemy there"

insult vs constructive feedback.

Good idea for someone who wants to improve. Though, count how many words and how much time it takes to write ? And consider this, most of idiots wouldn't listen anyway, therefore you want to call them "idiots".

Kei143Dec 2, 20171 votes

I can shorten that too "Q in brush and check". I can type that while moving between lanes, or between minion waves and it would take the same time as "why you face check idiot".

I don't expect people to learn instantly from 1 advice. I'll just focus on what I can do to make that game better, like vigourously ping the brush they are about to approach that you know has a Garen in it. If they still don't listen, then I'll just write off that game and improving things within my control like mechanics, communication or the macro game.

http://st.elohell.net/public/chill/7a1bcb85d79644d50cfd6133e6be607f.jpg

Sorin AlucardDec 2, 20171 votes

2nd one takes too long and its not negative. I asked for you to provide an example of an acceptable, negative statement.
Its a choice to be offended by that
If you were offended you have mute
Free speech
Its not sexist, racist, or homophobic. Filter option wouldn't even filter it
Its brash and not nice---- but that doesn't mean its worth a third party getting involved to take away their right to play.
Why isn't mute good enough?

Kei143Dec 2, 20172 votes

In my eyes, there is no acceptable negative statement.
True
True
That's not what free speech means
Your point?
One time offense, no problem, do that over 100 games? Yea, I have a problem with it.
Cos I don't want consistent toxic (mild-moderate) in my games.

Sorin AlucardDec 2, 20172 votes

No acceptable negative statement in your eyes, cool standard we can all follow bro

-Guess we'll skip free speech definition debate that's a whole other can of worms

Point is the word isn't even bad enough to be filtered, yet its bad enough to punish someone for.

one time one offense no problem-- algorithm isn't that forgiving, i doubt anyone would make 100 games of being reported in chat without having no account

Toxicity is a subjective definition and you have a mute. Why is it other player's personal responsibility that you don't like how they talk? You have a mute.

Mute's not good enough because you want a PG game. What about context? Why should I be punished if you're offended by a crass joke I make to my friend? Why are you allowed to judge my humor? Why are your feelings and standards more important?

RallerenPDec 2, 20172 votes

2nd one takes too long and its not negative. I asked for you to provide an example of an acceptable, negative statement.

What is the negative context then?

I would say face checking is negative.

You could also just say "please dont face check". That takes almost aslong as "why you face check idiot".

Its a choice to be offended by that

I hit you in the face. You now have the choice to be mad at me. Chances are, you'll be mad at me. But it's just a choice you made, so I didn't actually commit a crime.

Just because it's a choice to be offended, doesn't make the original action ok.

If you were offended you have mute

If you were hurt because I hit you, you could just have been wearing a helmet!

Free speech

Doesn't apply here. If you are going to throw around legal terms, learn what those terms mean.

Its not sexist, racist, or homophobic. Filter option wouldn't even filter it

My punch to your face wasnt a stab or a gunshot. The judge wouldn't even think that it was.

It's a dumb argument. You don't provide anything in it. It's just facts, but those facts doesn't rationally lead us to a conclusion.

Its brash and not nice---- but that doesn't mean its worth a third party getting involved to take away their right to play.

Why not? That the terms you agreed to when you created the account.

Why isn't mute good enough?

Because muting doesn't stop you from inting.

You see, Riot tried doing infinitely long chat restrictions once, and they don't anymore because people started inting instead.

Sorin AlucardDec 2, 20171 votes

using examples like "i punch you in the face" as if its comparable to "I say something you find offensive" is pretty far fetched. Its not even close to the same realm of infringement. You can't pass off personal responsibility for emotions onto other people. Words don't cause your nose to bleed. You may have those powers, I don't.

the first argument I asked for an example of a negative phrase that was ok under the new system. Instead i received an example of "offensive" vs "criticsm". Not what I asked for

Free speech within the bounds of something is not the same as true free speech. Liberty and free will are pretty important too. You're free to get offended by my words, but since I didn't actually harm your being or take actions against you I'm within my bounds. Free speech is a pretty understandable construct. If I say something super offensive to you and you demand I never say it again because its offended you that's censorship.

Flaming and inting aren't mutually inclusive. In fact saying mute doesn't stop inting kind of justifies my view that our punishments are too focused on what people say and not what they're actually doing

As for terms of service--- the only thing thats changed is interpretation. I'm not banned so that means I'm complying even though I disagree with what's been done.

RallerenPDec 3, 20171 votes

using examples like "i punch you in the face" as if its comparable to "I say something you find offensive" is pretty far fetched. Its not even close to the same realm of infringement. You can't pass off personal responsibility for emotions onto other people. Words don't cause your nose to bleed. You may have those powers, I don't.

I think it's pretty comparable, but that's not really important. The point was that you don't choose to be offended or hurt.

the first argument I asked for an example of a negative phrase that was ok under the new system. Instead i received an example of "offensive" vs "criticsm". Not what I asked for

But why? Why look for negative things? Why not just stay neutral or positive? What a wierd question to ask...

Free speech within the bounds of something is not the same as true free speech. Liberty and free will are pretty important too. You're free to get offended by my words, but since I didn't actually harm your being or take actions against you I'm within my bounds. Free speech is a pretty understandable construct. If I say something super offensive to you and you demand I never say it again because its offended you that's censorship.

LEGALLY you are free to say whatever you want and have any opinion. But Riot is a private company, and does not have to grant you that same right within the confines of the game. Riot can censor you in any way they want and it will be completely fine.

Flaming and inting aren't mutually inclusive. In fact saying mute doesn't stop inting kind of justifies my view that our punishments are too focused on what people say and not what they're actually doing

My point is that you are statistically very likely to int if Riot mutes you for a long time because you are toxic.

As for terms of service--- the only thing thats changed is interpretation. I'm not banned so that means I'm complying even though I disagree with what's been done.

I would say that you can't interpret the ToU in a way that makes it so that the 3rd part, Riot, can't interfere because of what you say.

TrulyBlandDec 2, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sorin Alucard,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=Ry6If98E,comment-id=0002000000000001,timestamp=2017-12-02T18:29:40.621+0000)

[...] 4. Free speech [...] 6. Its brash and not nice---- but that doesn't mean its worth a third party getting involved to take away their right to play.

I'd like to first focus on these two things, since you clearly do not understand how rights work: Free speech means you have the right to voice your opinion. Apart from the fact that even free speech has limits, this right only guarantees you that the government won't punish you for voicing your opinion. If Riot somehow got the real life police to arrest you for something you said, then you could cite free speech. And playing the game? That's not even a right to begin with. You don't have a right to a private company providing a service to you.

And in all honesty, this is by far the biggest source of problems with online toxicity. It always comes down to the same thing: entitlement. You are neither entitled to playing this game nor are you entitled to Riot giving you a platform for your "free speech".

As for the rest of your points:

Most people don't "choose" being offended by things. If you can consciously choose your own emotions, cool, but most people can't.

Mute is an after-the-fact band-aid fix that only serves to mitigate the effect of flaming. It neither fixes the actual problem, nor can it prevent it unless people sacrifice the social aspect of the game completely by preemptively muting everybody. Muting is a workaround, not a solution.

"It's not sexist, racist or homophobic" does not mean "it's good". In fact, using this as a way to relativize something makes it sound pretty bad. I mean... if you heard somebody closing a story with "Well, at least Steve is in a stable condition" you wouldn't exactly assume the story was about how Steve won the lottery.

And as for the "misleading" statement on negativity: Nobody here has said that there exists a negative statement that is acceptable (even though there probably are many that by themselves will not be persecuted). What The Djinn said was to use less negative statements. Right off the bat: That includes positive statements. Positive is less negative. The system does, however, also differentiate between different levels of negativity, so something less negative is absolutely more acceptable and less punishable. Saying "gg ez" is less negative than "you're a fucking idiot", which in turn is less negative than "I hope you die in a fire".

Sorin AlucardDec 2, 20171 votes

you're literally just repeating what others have said I shouldn't go read other things and you'll get most of what my response would be to the whole thread

We should stay away from free speech topic, we're clearly not going to come into a range of agreement there because I don't agree with assigning criminality to words even if their intolerant, ignorant or spiteful.

It doesn't matter that you and everyone else keep taking what you feel is the moral high ground. I'm not disputing what Riot is upholding, I'm not disputing my knowledge of whats allowed. I'm not asking for an unban or crying its all not fair.

I know the rules, but I'm allowed to criticize this idea that everyone is overly wrapped up in "how much harm toxic typing has on life".

That's what it is at the end of the day, my opinion that this current game state isn't as great as its heralded to be and its not necessarily awesome that they issue so many punishments over people's words

And outside of League, its still not my responsibility if you're offended when I say stop being pusillanimous

Magical PlayerDec 2, 20172 votes

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/749/743/6e4.jpg

You contradict yourself "Doesn't change the fact that I do have an inherent right to say whatever the hell I feel like saying either seriously or in humor. Unless I'm seriously threatening your life or spamming "n**r" I don't think there's a reason for you to be so upset mute isn't good enough for you."

mute doesn't take back the issue, it only covers the issue. Im glad you agree hate speech is worthy of your free speech being reined in

Sorin AlucardDec 2, 20171 votes

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

lol you missed the point

Magical PlayerDec 2, 20171 votes

You believe in true free speech, but yet you signed into a social contract with riot You don't understand the issue? or please what point am I missing?

TrulyBlandDec 2, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sorin Alucard,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=Ry6If98E,comment-id=000200000000000100020000,timestamp=2017-12-02T19:38:47.454+0000)

That's what it is at the end of the day, my opinion that this current game state isn't as great as its heralded to be and its not necessarily awesome that they issue so many punishments over people's words

That' fair enough... but I'm not attacking your opinion, I'm attacking the arguments that you brought up to support it. Case in point:

I don't agree with assigning criminality to words even if their intolerant, ignorant or spiteful.

Which is absolutely not what is happening here. Riot isn't assigning criminality to words... that would actually infringe your freedom of speech. What they are doing is exerting their rights, by reacting to what you said and imposing consequences without infringing any of your rights.

At the end of the day that's the issue with your free speech argument: You act as if you value personal freedom... but you really only value your personal freedom, while trying to use it as an argument against Riot's freedom.

So once again: I'm not attacking your opinion that Riot isn't dealing with this matter appropriately (although I do disagree with it), but your argument. And the truth is that any argument that is based on your rights is perfectly countered by an argument based on Riot's rights.

It's legal for you to flame people on Riot's servers. It's legal for Riot to ban you as a reaction. Nobody's rights are being infringed in this situation. So there's absolutely no reason to bring up rights.

nerak23Dec 2, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sorin Alucard,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=Ry6If98E,comment-id=0002000000000001,timestamp=2017-12-02T18:29:40.621+0000)

2nd one takes too long and its not negative. I asked for you to provide an example of an acceptable, negative statement.

Its a choice to be offended by that

If you were offended you have mute

Free speech

Its not sexist, racist, or homophobic. Filter option wouldn't even filter it

Its brash and not nice---- but that doesn't mean its worth a third party getting involved to take away their right to play.

Why isn't mute good enough?

Why should anyone give you an acceptable negative response. Such a sorry excuse to moan about. It's funny how hard people try to find ways to be an idiot

Also, mute is not a tool so players can say any nasty thing they want. Its a shame so many players believe the have the right to be insulting and worse.

You don't get free speech in this game you get to play by the rules you agreed to or risk losing an account.

Sorin AlucardDec 2, 20171 votes

Good thing I'm following the rules then. Keep preaching to choir kiddo

Doesn't change the fact that I do have an inherent right to say whatever the hell I feel like saying either seriously or in humor. Unless I'm seriously threatening your life or spamming "n****r" I don't think there's a reason for you to be so upset mute isn't good enough for you.

lol I like how you tried to slip in the insinuation and then continue with your comment like you're better than me

You just proved my point. Even you in disliking and disagreeing with me wish to insult me lol. I'm not bleeding. I don't have to talk to you anymore. You can say idiot directly to me you have that right lol

nerak23Dec 2, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sorin Alucard,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=Ry6If98E,comment-id=000200000000000100030000,timestamp=2017-12-02T19:30:02.823+0000)

Good thing I'm following the rules then. Keep preaching to choir kiddo

Doesn't change the fact that I do have an inherent right to say whatever the hell I feel like saying either seriously or in humor. Unless I'm seriously threatening your life or spamming "n****r" I don't think there's a reason for you to be so upset mute isn't good enough for you.

lol I like how you tried to slip in the insinuation and then continue with your comment like you're better than me

You just proved my point. Even you in disliking and disagreeing with me wish to insult me lol. I'm not bleeding. I don't have to talk to you anymore. You can say idiot directly to me you have that right lol

I am so glad you reply as such haha

You just proved my point!! You believe I insulted you, so much so you wrote me a mini speech. The reason I put it in italics, is to highlight how it looks bad. I would have simply quoted but not on my PC.

You don't Have to talk to me at all lol. But certainly others now see how Hippocratic this type of disagreement is.

Sorin AlucardDec 4, 20171 votes

lol you're being non sensical and I don't see how you proved anything

nerak23Dec 4, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sorin Alucard,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=Ry6If98E,comment-id=00020000000000010003000000000000,timestamp=2017-12-04T01:35:02.653+0000)

lol you're being non sensical and I don't see how you proved anything

You edited your comments ;). Sly I can't prove it, but hey man GL

IcyPepperDec 2, 20173 votes

Free speech

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/free_speech.png

Sorin AlucardDec 2, 20171 votes

Super clever. You're so right for posting a cartoon there buddy

Look at you go participating in the discussion

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

Magical PlayerDec 2, 20173 votes

There is no discussion to be had with you. Others are giving better rationale Such as KEI but you keep ignoring them, and so I figured wth may as well give this guy the free speech cartoon. Why, you ask because you keep thinking you have free speech

Sorin AlucardDec 2, 20171 votes

So in defense of banning behavior deemed harassment you've decided to use harassment because you've found a subjective reason to do so? lmao

You're a petty hypocrite

I do have "free speech". That's a true sentence. The limits will probably always be debatable, but thats not a debate we're having. You can't answer how I carry personal responsibility for other's feelings, because I don't.

Magical PlayerDec 2, 20173 votes

You don't carry responsibility for others emotions You carry responsibility to your own

You are not on some unlimited freedom field, you are in riot's field Riot is the host, you are the guest. If riot doesn't approve of your behavior what do they do? So riot is the care taker of the league community, pretty basic rules they set out for out "don't be a dick" the term is ever evolving and ever changing to adjust to what the community sees as dickish.

You're entitled to believe whatever you want, but when your belief is trying to override another then there is an issue, that directly arose from you

IcyPepperDec 2, 20173 votes

and so I figured wth may as well give this guy the free speech cartoon.

I mean, why rehash the same argument when a simple image explains it so well?

[sg-ezreal]

dKiWiDec 3, 20171 votes

'u r stuck in bronze/silver coz of that kind of facechecking'

Tenth LeperDec 2, 20171 votes

There is none because the deliberate negativity IS the toxicity.

Sorin AlucardDec 2, 20171 votes

So you have a way of always 100% tracking intent behind certain words and phrases? Oh yeah buddy applaud that no misunderstandings will arise under that standard its all clean cut black and white

[sg-ezreal]

verysaltDec 2, 20171 votes

Then what do you say for someone who plays like idiot and wastes all advantage you had ? Don't tell me you remain positive when idiot ignores all your pleas and friendly advice you gave before.

Kei143Dec 2, 20171 votes

If they do have the self control, the remain positive.

Getting angry at them doesn't make them play better. In fact, it'll just get you in trouble in the long run.

"why you face check idiot"

vs

"probably a good idea to use your Q and check if there is an enemy there"

insult vs constructive feedback.

TaeseukDec 2, 20173 votes

Any kind of negativity is reportable.

You shouldn't really be insulting people at all that being said it's not exactly on the same level as being toxic all game, throwing out insults, harassing people or using slurs of any kind and will likely just get you account put on the "watch list" rather than out right punished but if you say it often enough and it could lead to punishment as it's not just a "bad game" case.

Sorin AlucardDec 2, 20172 votes

Yes.

Its stupid af

but yes

ALittleBlueGuy69Dec 2, 20172 votes

Nope, it is not reportable unless they blatantly say it in chat. Dong Huap made a video about how broken the system is. Essentially, the automated system can't tell the difference between a feeder and a bad game, so it won't take action against them. The only thing that -does- happen is how seriously the bot takes you goes down. So, unless someone is breaking the rules in chat, don't waste your time.

Sorin AlucardDec 2, 20171 votes

^^^^^

Unker139Dec 2, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Nope, it is not reportable unless they blatantly say it in chat. Dong Huap made a video about how broken the system is. Essentially, the automated system can't tell the difference between a feeder and a bad game, so it won't take action against them. The only thing that -does- happen is how seriously the bot takes you goes down. So, unless someone is breaking the rules in chat, don't waste your time.

If you report a feeder it will get reviewed. No need to insult. Don't even need to say you are reporting.

ALittleBlueGuy69Dec 2, 20171 votes

Riot does not review cases unless requested to do so or if it's for a permaban. Otherwise, the automated system makes decisions. I've never once heard of a feeder getting banned because an employee overruled the bot.

Kei143Dec 2, 20171 votes

{quoted}

(talking about those situations when idiots goes 1v3,4,5 , don't ignores your pings, face check bushes etc).

They just making bad decisions. Unless they are intentionally throwing the game (inting), then making bad decisions is not a punishable offense.

verysaltDec 2, 20171 votes

It happens to everybody, that's not a problem. Problem is they throw and do the same over and over until the game is over. So they irritate other team members, but if you say it, idiot reports you.

Kei143Dec 2, 20171 votes

If they are intentional feeding, then they are intentional feeding. Very different than consistently making bad decisions without knowing why it was a bad decision.

They can report you all they want, but if you didn't do anything wrong, then the system would have the ability to filter out the false report.