Is Riot Punishing the Right People?

AkaliTheOP··5 votes·784 views

I'm aware that Riot gives out chat restrictions, temp, and permabans depending on the "severity" of the offense. But let's have a real quick chat about what's really going on here because I don't think people get it or maybe PC cancer has seeped in too far:

  1. It's a game. People are going to talk shit just like in all aspects of life. The difference is, the game has a mute feature that allows you to shut them up and block them for the rest of time. If you can't handle being criticized or told that you're bad (chances are, you're probably playing badly that game, it happens), then don't play the game or start the game off by muting all 10 players. You're too thin skinned. Note that saying "You're bad" is very different than "You're a piece of shit, go kill yourself".

  2. There is a huge problem with premades. You should not be flagged as "toxic" because a premade group of 3 didn't like your play. You had a bad game and didn't do well in lane, it happens to the best of players. The jungle camped bot with his 2 premade buddies and you were blamed for feeding the top laner. There are games where you go 1-9 because you're trying a new lane, new champion, bad matchup, etc. It doesn't mean you were feeding on purpose. Premades lead into point 3 as well - the true toxic players.

  3. Let's say the premade group of 3 are talking some mad shit about yoru sub par game in top lane. After 20 minutes you say enough and tell them to fuck off. I wouldn't claim you're in the wrong. Tell them to fuck themselves, mute 'em, and do your best. But oh no, riot won't do anything to them for harassing you all game, uncle Riot doesn't care about that at all. All the system looks for is the numbers - 3 reports from the premades for "unsportsmanlike + verbal abuse" + any of the enemy team they convince vs your 1 report on them. But who's at fault? They are! They started it. They invited retaliation, provoked your response, and made YOUR game worse. I use the example of a premade because let's be real - we've all been there. You're not premade with them, so everything is your fault. But this happens in groups of random players too. Riot is punishing players in a significant portion that are not the problem, but rather the victim of the problem hiding behind the guise of justice called the tribunal. Here's a personal example:

When BigP3n15Master420 (fake name) decides to run into baron pit with baron at 80% hp and die in less than 5 seconds and say "I tried, totally not feeding tho :^)"

I won't go into detail what I said to him (No, I wasn't banned. My account has never had any action taken against it) but I let him know he was a garbage, sub bronze player who should probably stick to minesweeper.

Riot needs to improve the punishment system to actually punish the problem, not the minority in a game or the ones who are sick of dealing with the problem they won't get off their asses to fix. What do you all think?

-Kyle

25 Comments

AeroWaffle8 votes

#1

Riot already has a degree of leniency when it comes to losing your cool in chat. You don't get banned for rare situations of poor behavior (as you've said in your situation). But in the real world, people get forcefully excluded from plenty of situations if they shown a habit of not playing nice.

Cause trouble for other customers in a store? Prepare to be thrown out. Talk too much shit during a friendly sport game? If the host of the sports game feel like it, they would throw you out for making it pretty unfriendly.

Whether or not certain behavior is acceptable or not is, admittedly, completely opinion based. What matters is who is setting the rules and setting the guidelines. And that's Riot. Riot has decided that "shittalking" and other forms of verbal abuse is completely unnecessary to the game and only results in ruining someone's enjoyment of the game. So they don't want it.

#2

Reports already focus more on the number of games reported than the pure number of reports. So, if you were to get reported 9 times in one game, it would be the same if you were to be reported just once that game.

#3

If they were talking "mad shit about your sub par game", they are subject to the same set of behavioral rules and can be reported/punished for their behavior. You responding to their hostility with more hostility just lowers yourself to their level. Mute, report, and move on.

scazzman2 votes

{quoted}

#1

Riot already has a degree of leniency when it comes to losing your cool in chat. You don't get banned for rare situations of poor behavior (as you've said in your situation). But in the real world, people get forcefully excluded from plenty of situations if they shown a habit of not playing nice.

Cause trouble for other customers in a store? Prepare to be thrown out. Talk too much shit during a friendly sport game? If the host of the sports game feel like it, they would throw you out for making it pretty unfriendly.

Whether or not certain behavior is acceptable or not is, admittedly, completely opinion based. What matters is who is setting the rules and setting the guidelines. And that's Riot. Riot has decided that "shittalking" and other forms of verbal abuse is completely unnecessary to the game and only results in ruining someone's enjoyment of the game. So they don't want it.

#2

Reports already focus more on the number of games reported than the pure number of reports. So, if you were to get reported 9 times in one game, it would be the same if you were to be reported just once that game.

#3

If they were talking "mad shit about your sub par game", they are subject to the same set of behavioral rules and can be reported/punished for their behavior. You responding to their hostility with more hostility just lowers yourself to their level. Mute, report, and move on.

this is untrue. riot has said that multiple reports actually do increase the likelyhood of your account being flagged for review just dont make a difference when determining punishments

Void Nargacuga3 votes

You need to show your proof then.

Because it has been said MULTIPLE times that 9 reports in one match has the same value as 1 report.

scazzman1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Bow hunter 16,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=LdxBU99b,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2016-06-05T05:23:13.593+0000)

You need to show your proof then.

Because it has been said MULTIPLE times that 9 reports in one match has the same value as 1 report.

it was a quote from DTN "yes it was from a blue not a red". i forgot where the actual post was and it may have been deleted

Void Nargacuga2 votes

Here is a quote from a RIOTER talking about multiple reports on one player in a single match.

[{quoted}](name=Riot Tantram,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=9VrUtrJo,comment-id=000000000002,timestamp=2016-05-23T17:35:27.493+0000)

Multiple reports do NOT increase the likelihood of flagging a game for review. One report is all it takes. There is no benefit to asking for others to report a player.

Deep Terror Nami3 votes

There's some misunderstanding which should be cleared up about this; It's true that 1 report will flag a match, but it's also true that many reports in a single match can trigger a review. The threshold for being punished is the same whether many people reported in each flagged match in the case or just one, though.

Void Nargacuga2 votes

Yeah that makes sense. It could have been that one person had reported them for something they actually did which ended up getting the match flagged.

scazzman1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Deep Terror Nami,realm=NA,application-id=ZGEFLEUQ,discussion-id=LdxBU99b,comment-id=0001000000010000,timestamp=2016-06-05T05:43:43.910+0000)

There's some misunderstanding which should be cleared up about this; It's true that 1 report will flag a match, but it's also true that many reports in a single match can trigger a review. The threshold for being punished is the same whether many people reported in each flagged match in the case or just one, though.

thank you.

dapositiveviking1 votes

but not premades, and a case review still does not equate to an instant punishment

AkaliTheOP1 votes

Correct, that's my understanding.

dapositiveviking1 votes

but not for premades, correct? or am i misremembering that premades reports count as one report

Deep Terror Nami3 votes

Correct. Premade reports do not stack, so essentially 5 solo reports are more likely to trigger a case review than a 5-man premade report.

No flash no life3 votes

{quoted}

riot has said that multiple reports actually do increase the likelyhood of your account being flagged for review

I'm going to give that the benefit of the doubt. I've seen most others saying one report holds same value as several reports since both cases do the same thing - flag the account for review. Still, if the account holder has done nothing that breaches the terms of use, why would there be any concern if the account is reviewed?

While I don't agree with most of what you're saying, I respect your opinion and the logic behind it. However, our opinions don't really matter when it comes to punishment. People read and agreed to not breach the terms of uses under any circumstance (regardless of whether they liked or agreed with their logic or not), but found morally justified reasons to do so, then went back on their own words without hesitation. That's all there is.

AkaliTheOP1 votes

It does depend on where you are in the game. Ranked games in certain brackets are generally worse. I found Silver to be very pleasant, Gold pretty close, and Plat is much more unmanagable. If you're a casual player, a lot of this isn't an issue - people don't care too much in normal games. After seeing strings of feeders, afkers, and those cheeky ones who just play around in the jungle instead of helping to avoid the ban, you start to see the flaws in the system because they aren't punished either (referring mostly to the last example where it's harder to show definitively they are not helping on purpose). But how could I know they aren't punished? I'll see them a few games later and the automated system takes effect within 15 minutes, so nothing happens to them. And if it did, you'd have to argue that new toxic players are coming into the game / being created at a rage appreciable to the rate of bans, and that's a very difficult stance to take.

AkaliTheOP1 votes

That's factually incorrect. League implemented an autoban function where players who go off on others in a game will be immediately punished. I've watched from a chair nearby and seen someone get chat restricted by this feature. Tribunal isn't the only punishment and I don't think you're aware of that and riot has commented on the false positives of this feature.

And you think Riot actually cares? I've reported these types of players who I watch bait others into becoming toxic and they aren't punished. I went 18 months with 0 log ins to "A player you've recently reported has had action taken against them" and I don't take part in the team bitch fest, so the reports came form a third party. So no, after a few hundred attempts at getting these people banned, I know for a fact they aren't having any action taken against them.

AeroWaffle2 votes

That's factually incorrect. League implemented an autoban function where players who go off on others in a game will be immediately punished. I've watched from a chair nearby and seen someone get chat restricted by this feature. Tribunal isn't the only punishment and I don't think you're aware of that and riot has commented on the false positives of this feature.

If you're the type of person that is likely to respond hostility with more hostility, it's likely you've done it more than once. And two parties angry at each other are likely to report each other as well.

The "Tribunal" has not been active for a long time. The only system that is active is the automatic one. It cannot be bias. You get reported in enough games -> scans chat -> issues ban if necessary, doesn't if not. You don't avoid the system by being good at the game, you don't by only abusing a single person, and you can't slip the system a 20 to pass you by.

The system even provides you some of the chat logs that resulted in the system deciding you deserved a punishment. This doesn't only give you a chance to reflect on your behavior, but gives you an opportunity to bring the logs to the community.

I've reported these types of players who I watch bait others into becoming toxic and they aren't punished. I went 18 months with 0 log ins to "A player who've recently reported has had action taken against them" and I don't take part in the team bitch fest, so the reports came form a third party. So no, after a few hundred attempts at getting these people banned, I know for a fact they aren't having any action taken against them.

I believe the little log thing is given when your report was the final straw before the person was issued a ban. Also, reporting someone that was negative that one game out of 100 is unlikely to get them banned.

I don't understand your reasoning. You seem to be arguing that it's easy to get banned because you're getting punished for simply retaliating. While simultaneously arguing that it's hard to get someone banned for being jerks in chat. How is the system both?

AkaliTheOP1 votes

Incorrect assessment. The argument is that there is a pool of players who are punished, and a subset of those players being punished are unjustly punished. The automated system has false positives that I did mention, but the greatest problem are the false negatives - when someone is clearly provoking a response and pushing someone, but isn't coming out and tearing into them in the way you'd expect a player on hard tilt to. The system does not catch these people because it's only AI and even the world's best AI (Definitely not Riots, but rather AI intended to teach itself tasks) can't mimic a person's decision making skills adequately.

AeroWaffle2 votes

Can you provide me some examples of people falsely punished. Riot hands out chatlogs with bans, so the possible proof is provided. People are also free to post their arguments on these boards when banned (and they often do).

Surely plenty of players would post their innocent chat logs if the system was handing out enough unjust punishments to cause concern.

scazzman2 votes

agreed. prepare for downvote spam and white knighters

AkaliTheOP2 votes

shrugs I don't mind if people choose to mass down vote. It usually devolves into a Dark Souls kind of situation - problem? "Lel, git gud". They often ignore the fact it's an actual problem. What I believe is important to letting people who do get punished unfairly know that they really aren't that bad (more than likely) and that other's understand their plight.

Troll Armada2 votes

This is a clear 'clash of cultures' ...basically the individual and truth vs. collectivism.

  1. In Chinese cultural traditions the amount of people who believe something is tantamount to truth. So a pre-made which believes that you are toxic, is from a Chinese cultural perspective, correct.

  2. In the west we have the benefit of enlightenment thinkers such as Ayn Rand who teach us that reality and truth are separate from people's beliefs. The right of the individual to protect his inalienable rights to truth and justice are superior to the collectivist mob rule which riot has chosen to elevate above the individual.

Dynamic Queue is Socialism. Pure and simple. While solo queue is Democracy, truth, and justice.

Dehitay2 votes

I thought this was going to be a post about how badly Riot neglects punishing feeders and trolls in favor of cracking down on toxic chat instead. It's a known problem with a known solution that Riot refuses to implement.

Astôlfo1 votes

No. Dismissed.

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