I miss being able to build champions diversly.

Willow Ninja·Nov 30, 2014·59 votes·3,829 views

So i just played a round of AD akali, we won and I went 7/11. Admittedly i got carried but i wasn't just a dead weight and I still had fun.

However I was called f@#$ing autistic kindergartner by my team the entire match. When i started playing this game back around when Xin came out, there were so many ways you could build champions differently. I miss this diversity and wish riot (and the meta loving community) would stop pigeon holing me and other like me into doing the same mundane routine game after game. It gets old.

Yesterday i played AP blitz top lane and went 24/11. IT was probably the funnest game Ive had in MONTHS, not because i was fed, but just because all the people flaming me for going top blitz got it shoved in they're face.

TL;DR STOP FLAMING PEOPLE IF THEY DON'T DO WHATS IN THE META, and if a rioter were to read this i wish you would give us URF mode back or make champion kits more lenient to divergent builds. I know your trying to preserve the competitive environment but lets face it, this game has millions of daily players and you need to remember who made this game into the popular bank train that its become.

54 Comments

VolugeNov 30, 201412 votes

The people who are "enforcing" the meta doesn't always know why the meta is there in the first place. It's funny how it's seemingly impossible to win in ranked games with something "odd" as in not a "meta" pick, why? Because as you explained, people in your team are complaining for no reason. In any bracket, such needless complaining can cost the game in multiple different ways, jungler doesn't help, if you're bot, your laner performs awkwardly badly or ignores you to some extent, the constant scapegoating making you the black sheep of the team can easily affect your state of mind before you choose to use the ignore option (which isn't recommendable due to lack of communication), and so on.

Aaaand then on the other hand, if I go normals, I can go my AP'maw anywhere (except jungle) and still win, even as the supp (although the early score might suck, the end result prevails). This whole meta-enforcement is ruining games for everyone. I agree with OP.

California IceNov 30, 20143 votes

I agree. I also love Ap Kogmaw, you should try Hurricane and build AP. Reason being is that his W goes by maxpercentage damage, and shooting up to three people is insane. :)

I think I did like 14% max damage per hit at end game, and I had 70% AS. It can come of as a prize, if you know what your doing.

jmaishereNov 30, 20143 votes

you know what works just as well? runaan's and botrk on gnar, it's beastly and lets you control transformations

California IceNov 30, 20141 votes

Sounds fun!

SammystormNov 30, 20143 votes

the reason people complain is because the meta is the best current way to win the game with that particular champion. You playing something different lowers their chance to win unless you have played a hell of a lot of games as the off pick.

soulbanana8Nov 30, 20144 votes

But the question is why do those specific "meta" things let you win? Metagaming, from wikipedia, is

Metagaming is any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game. Another definition refers to the game universe outside of the game itself. If you don't know how to use the meta effectively, then there's no real point in following it. If AD Akali is advantageous because your team's all AP, then by all means do it.

Thunder DreamssNov 30, 20145 votes

The metagame is all the thinking/planning we do outside the game itself. For example if your team is all AP and you're playing Akali then, as part of the metagame, you might think to build her AD so the enemy is punished for only building mr.

The Meta is a set of superstitions LoL players often hold about the one true way things must be done. Many LoL players think The Meta is the most effective way to win but in truth it's just a set of conventions they dare not break and often lead to bad decision making in the face of differing circumstances.

Forlorn DidactNov 30, 20149 votes

But the question is why do those specific "meta" things let you win? Metagaming, from wikipedia, is

Metagaming is any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game. Another definition refers to the game universe outside of the game itself. If you don't know how to use the meta effectively, then there's no real point in following it. If AD Akali is advantageous because your team's all AP, then by all means do it.

Meta doesn't mean metagaming. Meta stands for Most Efficient Tactics Available.

OblongOtterDec 1, 20143 votes

Except that it isn't. Which is why the meta shifts and new things get popular while old things lose favor.

OG el Magnifico Nov 30, 20143 votes

Picking something off doesn't lower their chances at winning, giving up because of what your team mate decided to pick lowers your chances of winning

SammystormDec 1, 20141 votes

All though you are right. You are going to statistically be less effective as ad akali over ap akali. I am not saying that you can't be successful doing something off meta but you are more likely win if you play to the meta because you do not have to reinvent the wheel. For a off meta thing to work someone has to practice a hell of a lot and forge a path by them selves mostly. For that new tactic to be considered they have to prove without a doubt that it is the best current way to play the champion or comp. Most people are not able to be as effective playing off meta as they would be following the meta. Some people are really good at innovating and causing a meta shift. That being said meta shifts always come from the top down because the people in the top brackets are the best players in the game. A gold strategy might work in gold but isn't guaranteed to work in plat. Which is another problem with breaking the meta. It can potentially cause people to adapt to a lower strategical play style instead of learning the higher play style.

None of that justifies a person bitching someone else out for breaking the meta. However the meta exists for a reason and is a very helpful guide for most of the league population.

AmightyTNov 30, 20146 votes

THANK YOU FOR PLAYING BLITZ TOP, HE IS NOT A DAMN SUPPORT

BetaDude40Nov 30, 20143 votes

Unfortunately, 9 times out of ten, he's played as a support.

We top Blitzes just have to keep trying to prove them wrong again and again.

RoyaiChaosNov 30, 20145 votes

Riot has already done a lot, from buffing AP MF to the recent Dark Horse series (which I hope becomes a thing). I don't see how URF relates to this at all, and I would like to hear you suggest what Riot could do instead of just say "Rito pls fix".

It's more of a problem with the community than Riot, anyways try team builder, just rocked AD Malz today with a support Heimer and top lane Kali, although it did take some time to get a team (~15 minutes at most) but it's the best solution if you don't want to be raged at.

KaishaNov 30, 20145 votes

This community is a toxic cess pool. I like off-meta champs, builds, and setups. Being able to adjust on the fly often leads to better outcomes than an 'optimal' build (team went all AD and they're stacking armor, why not stack AP on kog??, ect...). Sadly in order to win in Solo you have to play as a team, and as soon as you go even slightly off meta they rant and rage like its the end of the world.

I remember one game I went AP malz bot lane (we had an AD mid, top and jungle). Called it clearly. The entire team went out of their way to deprive me of gold/kills/ect... to ensure my kda was bad to 'prove them right'. We lost the game, I was #1 in dmg on both teams, and I got 4 reports.

So ya... off meta is never gonna happen as long as Riot continues to promote and encourage bullying behavior.

California IceNov 30, 20144 votes

Play whatever you want, and build any champions however you want. I've been doing it for years, look at my match history!

http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1646135836/221588815?tab=overview

Just because people abuse you or tell you disgusting things, does not mean your doing anything wrong or toxic (unless your toxic back to them) Remember, the mute option is there for a reason. I typically don't mute people mainly because I let them keep rambling toxic things, in then I report them later after game. (I don't type back to them at all) Remember, you will never get banned for playing off-meta champions, or building wrong; unless your building 5 mobility boots, which is considered trolling. >.>

AspynnNov 30, 20142 votes

Let's talk about that lee sin support for a minute... LOL I'd actually like to know how it went for him in lane. I had always wanted to try lee sin support, but whenever I searched anything about it I heard only negative things about his base damage and such. (what about ap lee supp? his shield has a 0.8 scaling for both him and his target o3o) I thought lee would be a really cool support because of his engage, no resource poke, shields, slow and aspd slow and displacement. He seems like he could be fun, and eventually I'll try it, but I don't think that works. However tank junglers and some other ad junglers can work wonders in support. Mainly Sejuani, nautilus, zac, xin zhao, and volibear was what I'm thinking of.

California IceNov 30, 20143 votes

Go ahead and try it! Remember to ignore the haters; breaking the meta is never against the rules. Yesterday I was against a lee sin support, and he had relic shield on him first. Let alone, he was always landing his q's which was a considerable amount of poke.

He also has a free dash/shield sort of spell, and he has a aoe slow. Once you hit level 6, you can make huge plays. One time, I was playing Thresh and I managed to pull their adc, once I was going in with my pull, he just kicked me and she was safe. Until this day, I despise him! ):

AspynnNov 30, 20142 votes

That's impressive! I had always kind of wanted to try an ap sort of tank build with iceborn gauntlet... His shield has a very nice ap scaling, and I think he could benefit from the sheen proc (Due to his passive, even though the gauntlet only procs once) He has a really nice support build so... I guess it all revolves around mechanics and skill o3o

WolfBVNov 30, 20143 votes

Sejuani support is fun as is Shen support.

AspynnDec 1, 20141 votes

I enjoy Shen support too, I'm just not good at it, Shen has some amazing ult combos with twitch, if he Ilya him while he's in is nobody can see. Then Shen taunt into twitch ult = rekt

TopGarenteedNov 30, 20141 votes

Play whatever you want, and build any champions however you want. I've been doing it for years, look at my match history!

http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1646135836/221588815?tab=overview

Just because people abuse you or tell you disgusting things, does not mean your doing anything wrong or toxic (unless your toxic back to them) Remember, the mute option is there for a reason. I typically don't mute people mainly because I let them keep rambling toxic things, in then I report them later after game. (I don't type back to them at all) Remember, you will never get banned for playing off-meta champions, or building wrong; unless your building 5 mobility boots, which is considered trolling. >.>

There is nothing abnormal in this match History.

TehNACHONov 30, 20143 votes

Your tl;dr and the rest of your post don't line up. "The" meta has nothing to do with item builds, it's what champion's strengths best suit which environments (aka, top lanes who can defend themselves, or mid laners with burst or utility to give 2 examples).

Furthermore, this has little to do with a preconceived notion of what's right or wrong, as most claims towards champion builds are based off what is simply the most efficient. To put that into context, most main carries have nothing but Damage and Utility in their kit, for example Corki or KogMaw . There is literally no good argument for building these guys (overly) tanky, or else they'd fall off a cliff in terms of usefulness as their only main reason for being on a team, damage, is shot. Full AD and AP builds exist for these guys, along with hybrid and pseudo hybrid builds, but you can not argue that these guys not really being able to build tanky is the result of an oppressive community+riot holding down your creativity, that is just suboptimal play. AD Akali for example makes little sense in most contexts, as AD building on a champion with low AD ratios on abilities suggests that your damage will be in the form of Auto Attack based DPS. This is silly when you consider that both her Magic Damage DPS and her Magic Damage Burst is far higher thanks to her Q and her Ultimate's functions, along with being far more reliable with her W, compared to the fact that unlike most other melee carries, Akali has no way to defend herself while she's trying to auto attack away.

I mean, if you're going to argue with me that playing sub optimally should be celebrated by this community, go ahead, please do. Just please let my message get across that most arguments against building champions weird is all about optimizing a champion's strengths.

P.S. As an engage champ, Blitzcrank top, and in rare cases, Blitzcrank mid are actually perfectly viable provided you are either building the AP/Magic Pen to burst people down or the tankiness to be your team's main team fight initiator. The people who were criticizing you in that game were just idiots. However, if you built something like AD or Utility Blitzcrank while you're in top or midlane, then I'd say you're the one who messed up in that case, as building AD doesn't take advantage of Blitzcrank's engage power the same way AP or tankiness could, and building like a support while in a Solo lane will simply make Blitzcrank extremely useless through the laning phase.

AmightyTNov 30, 20141 votes

At no part of the post was he talking about kog or corki (Since ADCs are identified by their AD-centric nature that's some serious cherry picking you're doing saying that they're bad if you don't go full AD) and its more about champions who could diversify can't now. Hybrid AD/AP builds are useless now, AP Jax/Xin are super niche, wheres the fun in taking away the diversification that was originally there?

TehNACHONov 30, 20143 votes

I like how you don't notice I mention that those two were examples. I also like how you don't notice I even go as far as to cite their AP, hybrid, and pseudo hybrid builds. Like, hell, find Voluge's comment about AP Kog'Maw, so I know I'm not alone in this regard when it comes to mentioning AP variants of the few Marksmen with AP ratios.

As a counterargument to AD/AP building: Hybrid AD/AP, along with other forms of hybridization (Like mixing Tanks and AP) isn't efficient for a large majority of champs, and my suspicions have been that they have always been (at least technically) inefficient, people just didn't know back then. This is a math thing that you will only ever notice if you calculate gold efficiency for item builds, but the general thing to note is that if you build for 1 specific job (Let's say DPS) the more item efficient items for that job become. The super simplified example is this: Let's say you're itemizing for Auto Attack DPS. If you buy an Infinity Edge, every Critical Strike item in the game is suddenly a lot more gold efficient (for hopefully obvious reasons), and AD and Attack Speed items also get slightly more gold efficient (Because IE's AD and Crit multiplies Attack Speed, and IE's Crit also continues multiplying AD). And just so we're totally clear and don't pull another Kog+Corki, that was an example. Champions who are very clearly designed for hybridization (Fighters for example mix Damage Items AND Tank items into their item sets, Corki Akali and Evelynn have the ratios to incorporate AD and AP, Champs like Ryze and Rumble rock AP+Tankiness) can still build hybrid all they want. This is why Full Damage Darius and Tanky Darius and bruiser Darius all work. This is why I mentioned earlier that Udyr technically has like 5 viable builds. Hybridization isn't useless now, you're just (usually) looking at the wrong champions.

AP Jax and Xin Zhao I suspect is more because people just don't know about them. I mean, and I'm not even kidding by the way, there are a lot of players I've had the...pleasure...of talking to who didn't even know that many Melee Carries like MasterYi , Tryndamere , and of course, Jax and XinZhao even have AP ratios.

The fun, or rather, the avoidance of unfun player interaction comes in the form of giving people something to expect. For example, let's just say Ryze has the ability to hyper carry as hard as he can with AD at a similar strength to the way he hyper carries with AP. Let's say you just backed, all you see is that Ryze has item 3070 , and you build some MR to handle his abilities. Bam, Ryze builds Manamune, goes AD, and begins to scale off. You just wasted money on MR and are nowhere near any safer than before. Ryze may be having the time of his life, but now the defending player just feels cheated, mostly because he practically was.

BastionKrossNov 30, 20143 votes

Here's my philosophy: If you do something like that and you at least carry your own weight, I'm cool with it. I don't care that my bot lane is Garen Olaf or someone built item 3157 Darius or if you feel Xerath just belongs in the jungle; as long as you're not a burden to the rest of the team.

If you're going to do something different like that, do it well.

CaesarFlickermanNov 30, 20142 votes

EXACTLY this. Going Singed ADC is perfectly fine, provided you do your job and do it right. Pulling a stunt like that and going say...3-7 says that no, you didn't do the job right, and got carried.

TheKingDodoNov 30, 20142 votes

don't know what team you had... but my team was perfectly ok with me stacking item 3070 on my Akali ... and by ok, I mean silently carrying me on their broad shoulders. THAT or maybe I ignored them... forgot :/ ... details

DolynaNov 30, 20142 votes

Out of curiosity, how do we find out what the meta is? Is it just word of mouth, or have people compiled a list of meta positions for characters someplace?

I have no interest in enforcing a meta, but it would be interesting to see.

jmaishereNov 30, 20145 votes

it's actually what is created when certain people take odd picks and end up doing ridiculously well in which then everyone jumps aboard the bandwagon even people were flaming the odd pick months ago, take ap yi for example back before the rework, back into season 1 and 2 if you took ap yi ppl were like what are you doing, ap yi sucks, but around a few months before the rework, people started playing him a lot, and then he became toxic which led to the rework, but mainly it does depend on who the pros are playing and are thus seen as "strong picks"

Brenticus12Nov 30, 201411 votes

Champion build metas are based off of what stat upgrades compliment a champion's kit the best (Such as the ap/ad ratios. That's why you don't build AP Zed since Zed doesn't have a skill that scales off of AP but you can build AD or AP Shaco since Shaco is an auto attack champion that relies on crits from his Q but also has AP ratios on his W, E and R).

Lane metas are based on how the champion scales and what their kit does. If the champion scales with items and levels, top or mid is better suited for them. ADCs are primarily item based since they're mainly auto attack champs and only require items for damage output. Support kits come with CC and team sustain and don't require too many levels OR items so they're perfect together in bot lane. That's why you don't see Renekton bot even though he has a good stun because he has no other form of CC and his sustain only applies to himself + he scales off of items and levels meaning a solo lane is best for him.

Mid laners are normally those with the best roaming potential with some forms of CC (Lux bind, Syndra stun) who can also afford to help with securing dragon.

There are some outliers like Volibear support, Thresh ADC, Zed top, AP top Blitz and Zilean mid, but those are exceptions due to their kits and are generally welcomed by players cause of diversity.

BudupopsNov 30, 20142 votes

i go urgot jungle, usually die on my second camp... good fun

GorbacheNov 30, 20141 votes

i go urgot jungle, usually die on my second camp... good fun

Evelynn isn't doing much better on her third camp if you start on the blue side (I really need a better route with her)

Ayame IsakiDec 1, 20142 votes

This may sound dumb, but it gets you three camps at the very least:

Take Smite/Heal
Start Golem (stuns help). Use your heal if you have to. Smite for buff.
Go wolves. Use heal; if already used then use a health pot.
Go Blue. Use health pot.
If you have a pot left, go gank top or mid. If you don't, then back and do Gromp->Red->Birds.

It's not great; losing flash is a big deal but being behind is even worse. You don't really have a choice if you want to play Eve, she can't sustain early and is easily made irrelevant if she is behind.

Disclosure: Eve is the only champ I jungle on, and I do not jungle frequently due to how hard it is in the new SR.

GorbacheDec 1, 20142 votes

This may sound dumb, but it gets you three camps at the very least:

Take Smite/Heal

Start Golem (stuns help). Use your heal if you have to. Smite for buff.

Go wolves. Use heal; if already used then use a health pot.

Go Blue. Use health pot.

If you have a pot left, go gank top or mid. If you don't, then back and do Gromp->Red->Birds.

It's not great; losing flash is a big deal but being behind is even worse. You don't really have a choice if you want to play Eve, she can't sustain early and is easily made irrelevant if she is behind.

Disclosure: Eve is the only champ I jungle on, and I do not jungle frequently due to how hard it is in the new SR.

The loss of Flash on Eve would hurt for those big ult moments but it's good to see that I'm not crazy about the fact that her clear is subpar now. I'll definitely try a golem start next time!

PL55Nov 30, 20141 votes

If there is a mute button in champion select that would be nice.

Jeddy017Nov 30, 20141 votes

Unfortunately even if you mute them,if they dislike your non-meta pick THAT much.They'll just dodge forcing everyone to queue up again.

Jeddy017Nov 30, 20141 votes

Whether it's builds or roles,I don't care what you do.Personally,I'm all for meta-breaking.

Though,it should be the job of the team to,you know,ADAPT to it.

ChaosThiefNov 30, 20141 votes

Can full AD Renekton be a thing? I think yes.

Some of these weird off builds are hard to work with though simply because of the champion, and all of these people trying to find the most "broken" combination is getting old. Can we have a group of people make custom games just for fun off builds instead of the "perfect meta" builds?

balbraakselNov 30, 20141 votes

Try Jinx support, it's actually pretty good: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/LYhQKG1Q-support-jinx

You can swap the item 3142 for item 3071 .

Serpents EmbraceNov 30, 20141 votes

Cassiopeia Me, too.

2pudge1cupNov 30, 20141 votes

Riot balances around encouraging set item builds and set roles per champ. It isn't the playerbase's fault that they get mad at things out of the norm because riot enforces the norm.

FinaloutDec 1, 20141 votes

I hate it when it happens in an ARAM. Like if your whole team is AP, I'll build AD so we have some sort of mixed damage. There is always one guy on my team that says I'm trolling, go back to normals. Aigh, just let me play and have fun.

AlëkDec 1, 20141 votes

Lol. Don't worry. I enjoy playing AP Jax, AP Xin, and AD Kat. I mute people if they rage. Occasionally you get a nice team that endorses your play though.

I Kill CommiesDec 1, 20141 votes

If you wanna play something slightly unusual because you understand how it works and have practiced it alot, then by all means, go for it.

But I absolutely can't stand it when I get people in my games who play off meta picks just to be a hipster. 99% of the time they are fucking terrible and just feed.

KaishaDec 1, 20142 votes

And here-in lies the problem. What one person considers 'effective off pick' another considers the choice to be 'fucking terrible and just feed' and rant and rage.

Just for the record C9... most of the posts in this about toxic players are referring to players just like you.

M JarvanDec 1, 20141 votes

So i just played a round of AD akali, we won and I went 7/11. Admittedly i got carried but i wasn't just a dead weight and I still had fun.

However I was called f@#$ing autistic kindergartner by my team the entire match. When i started playing this game back around when Xin came out, there were so many ways you could build champions differently. I miss this diversity and wish riot (and the meta loving community) would stop pigeon holing me and other like me into doing the same mundane routine game after game. It gets old.

Yesterday i played AP blitz top lane and went 24/11. IT was probably the funnest game Ive had in MONTHS, not because i was fed, but just because all the people flaming me for going top blitz got it shoved in they're face.

TL;DR STOP FLAMING PEOPLE IF THEY DON'T DO WHATS IN THE META, and if a rioter were to read this i wish you would give us URF mode back or make champion kits more lenient to divergent builds. I know your trying to preserve the competitive environment but lets face it, this game has millions of daily players and you need to remember who made this game into the popular bank train that its become.

So what is it about AD Akali that makes it "fun"? AP Blitz I get (pull, punch, delete a squishy). But there's nothing about AD Akali that screams "fun". If you can't justify it, you end up looking like a seven year old who insists on eating steak with chopsticks instead of fork and knife because it's more "fun".

ScalyManChardDec 1, 20141 votes

Off-meta is fine as long as it makes sense and you know what you're doing.

AP Blitz can work and plays way different than Support Blitz. Support Mages can work Maybe Support Kalista is awesome?

AD Akali is just a weaker AP Akali.

warpenguin555Dec 1, 20141 votes

build your champions how ever you want. As long as you are making an effort to play good and win, you wont get banned. the toxic people that are attacking you will though.