Zhonya's Hourglass discussion, what do you think Riot?

EZ Kaisa·7/14/2014, 12:17:19 AM·6 votes·4,584 views

Hey guys! I was wondering your opinion on zhonya's hourglass. I personally think the item needs a nerf due to how hard it counters not only assassins like talon and zed, but also countering even tanks, as you can just wait for cooldowns on champions like fizz. Instead of offering counter-play to their damage, it instead completely destroys ALL of the damage, without any actual downfall.

I think the effect of Stasis it provides should be lowered to 1.75 seconds (currently 2.5) for this purpose of offering counter-play, 2.5 seconds is just too long.

Opinions? Do you think zhonyas is OP? Do you think it is balanced? How should it be changed if in any way at all?

25 Comments

RiotFeralPony7/15/2014, 4:20:29 PM5 votes

Generally speaking, lowering the statis time is a buff more than a nerf (except for a few skill specific interactions like Kennen/Morg ults). Taken to a slight extreme, imagine ZH with a statis of .5 seconds. You could still use it to escape from the largest burst damage spells and then immediately escape or continue fighting with minimal disruption to your personal damage pattern or movement.

Inversely let's say the duration was increased to 5 seconds from 2.5. Using this puts the caster is a tricky situation, you use the stasis to escape an immediate threat but losing control of your actions for the next 5 seconds gives a ton of control and opportunity to your opponents. In teamfights it reduces your ability to contribute (as 5 seconds is an eternity in a teamfight) meaning you've turned that teamfight into a 4v5 and giving the entire enemy team time to huddle around your soon to be dead body.

Not to say Zhonya's couldn't use a light nerf but personally I don't think it needs anywhere near the level of a full rework or gutting. I would certainly like to hit the stat efficiency of the item a bit when we do a pass and increase the stasis duration slightly but that has the really heavy cost of people learning, memorizing, and feeling the invuln timing on both ends.

PhailRaptor7/14/2014, 3:47:02 AM4 votes

The big problem, imo, with ZGlass is the same problem that plagued the original ZRing back in the day. For those of you who were not around, Zhonya's Ring had the %AP amp from Deathcap, and the Stasis active of Hourglass, plus 120 AP. It was, bar none, the most powerful item in the game, because it was the best in-class offense item (120 AP, % AP amp) and the best in-class defense item (go-go-gadget-stasis!), in a single item slot. As a result, Riot split the item into Deathcap and Hourglass.

The issue now is that Hourglass is -- still -- top tier in-class offense, and -- still -- best in-class defense. If I had my way, ZGlass would look more like this (numbers properly balanced, of course) :

Zhonya's Hourglass item 3157 Recipe: item 3191 Seeker's Armguard (1160 gold) + item 3113 Aether Wisp (950 gold) + <number> combine = <number> total +70 AP +60 Armor Unique: + 5% movespeed Unique: Stasis

This positions Hourglass as more of a defensive item rather than an offensive one, all the way through. Relevant AP, but not a huge amount. Significant Armor, now that it is a defensive item. The movespeed might seem a little odd, however, you could easily swap the item 3113 Aether Wisp for a item 3108 Fiendish Codex to replace with CDR instead. Both fit with the idea of an enchanted hourglass (although the CDR might fit better).

The only real cost to this is figuring out what new item to make for item 1058 NLR to build into.

Luner Hunter7/14/2014, 3:21:59 PM3 votes

awww is someone upset they cant just zed ult whenever cuz someone has a Zglass? if we're talking about immunity=op then can we also get rid of yi's Q fiora's R Zed's ult (cuz it makes him untargetable) tryn's ult (dat 5 seconds doe) fizz's troll pole ect..... OR you can get good enough to bait the Zglass and kill them

Earl Eulrich7/14/2014, 10:37:52 AM3 votes

I think it´s fairly balanced, you really have to time it right or it´ll be just useless...so the better the mindgames/timing the more effective it gets - it´s pretty much what all balancing should aspire. It´s really high risk->high reward mostly.

Sneak Dog7/14/2014, 1:42:06 AM2 votes

Lowering its duration might actually be a buff for some champions, considering some use it to dodge an ability instead of waiting for cooldowns.

I do think Zhonya's is op, it basically denies assassins an entire class of champions as target, but they still have adcs to kill, so this actually balances it, somehow.

FatedTitan7/15/2014, 5:34:58 PM2 votes

I think the AP should be 80 for the defensive utility it brings. 120 is just ridiculous. That's like giving Infinity Edge a stasis.

canible7/16/2014, 2:37:30 PM2 votes

The issue is in team fights I believe. 1v1 it can be annoying but not necessarily op. In a team fight, being forced to switch targets after blowing cooldowns on an initial target is very hard to do properly. Especially when it is someone like Fizz or Kat. Lowering the stasis time would be a nerf no matter how you look at it to the overall usability. 1v1 for a skilled user it might see a buff, but in a team fight it would allow your team to actually finish of the target. Not to mention that Zhonya's is 110% gold efficient without even taking into account the active. WOOGLETS on the otherhand, is just plain stupid. Playing 3s or dominion a lot means that EVERY AP gets that item. On dominion, there can be 2 or even 3 ap's on a team comp at times, so you may have to deal with three of the actives in any given fight...besides being 103% gold efficient without either the passive and active factors, its just plain not fun to play against. It needs to be changed. There should not be an item for a class of character that is mandatory to really compete.

Aethari7/14/2014, 11:02:59 AM2 votes

I'm not sure about the stasis active being shorter, but I'm definitely in favor of the amount of AP it gives being dropped drastically, as it's too high for an item that already grants one of the strongest actives in the game along with a decent amount of armor.

While this item is strong, and even one of the primary reasons for a certain assassin's lack of viability (Zed), I'm not sure how Riot could balance the active without fundamentally changing it.

Pharrøw7/15/2014, 1:20:32 AM2 votes

Sometime I think it should freeze your cooldowns in place as well.

excodar7/17/2014, 7:26:00 AM1 votes

Yes lets nerf AP assassins even more even after what you did to them in season 3/4 Ahri Fizz Kassadin and lets not forget the other underplayed mages that rely on this item Anivia Heimerdinger Kennen Swain Vladimir Lissandra Karthus Malzahar Veigar Diana ..... Teemo

A0 SHIN7/15/2014, 6:43:34 PM1 votes

Its built out of an expensive AP item, its going to give good ap stats. That AP is being payed for, I dont see the need for a nerf to that. The active could be increased for a nerf. If someone like Zed ulted an APC and they used zhonyas, even anywhere out of position, it would make it wasy for follow up for the team.. Effectively making the person who uses Zhonyas in a bad way a nonfactor in any fight.

Nebuul7/15/2014, 9:31:06 PM1 votes

What if item 3157 provided 2 seconds of invulnerability, then .5 seconds of being suppressed? Then it would let you stand there and hopefully not die long enough for your team to get in, but then they have to protect you for half a second until you can (hopefully) protect yourself?

DdC ThanatoZ7/16/2014, 4:35:27 PM1 votes

Hey FERALPONY, sadly you are talking about the dream case scenario, zhonyas is sadly not used that way, the way zhonyas is used right now is mages cast everything use zhonyas and cast everything again except the ultimate and that is because of the champion pool in the mid lane, it is also a free get out of jail card for when these squishy mages get caught, they just use zhonyas while their team gets to their position then use CC to immobilize that person catching them and then they end up turning an unfavorable situation into a favorable one just because of 1 item.

Speaking of AOE ultimate users like Kennen Morgana FIdd etc it is also really frustrating since these champs don't really need to be doing exceptionally good to be effective having this item, they can't be focused down to nulify the effects of their ultimates and the only way to beat them would be to shut them down really hard early in the game before this big purchase but still you see cases of fiddle support winning games because they pulled that one good ultimate that couldn't be stopped thanks to zhonyas(just an example).

If you reduce the stasis time people will actually have to be good at positioning since it wouldn't be that big get free out of jail card as it is right now and if they screw up they can actually be punished in team fights.

buneter7/16/2014, 11:41:19 PM1 votes

2.5 lets your team surround you sure but if you're too deep you team is going to give up on you and instead of making the enemy wait around your for 2.5 seconds so your team can get away then they would only wait around for 1.75 seconds and be able to chase your team down and maybe kill them

Cerbearus7/14/2014, 1:21:30 AM1 votes

Just give the item a decent CD. It is too damn low right now and seems to be always up.