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Discussion of recent and future rreworks

Silence Mom··2 votes·3,911 views

Hi guys! Today i just wanted to talk about reworks. Recently, there have been many reowkrs - fiora, MF, and GP getting reworked last patch and the juggernaut changes soon to come. But, before I talk about this, I wanted to discuss what the purpose of a rework is:

IMO, the point of a rework is to change a champion to make him or her less broken while still keeping their identity and a place in the meta. Then, we are confronted with the definition of broken. Broken to me =/= OP, in fact many broken champions such as Poppy acttually suck. Broken IMO is when a champion has such a lack of counterplay that they are either op or are up do to their kits being too annoying to play against if they had decent numbers. Take poppy - if she could survive the laning phase, then because of her ult giving her a high lack of counterplay she can simply ult the support... and there is nothing you can do. I also want to take a look at recent reworks. I will group them in to 5 categories: Very good, good, meh, poor, and terrible

Very Good:

Ashe - it made her a viable adc with a steroid but keeping her cc adc identity, and after a patch or two is now very well balanaced

Sion: We all know about this. Sion pre-rework had no identity and completely fucked scaling. Now, he is what he should be - a tanky untoppable juggernaut with cc and the ability to come back from the dead/the brink of death

Good:
Trist - thoughshe still has her problem of being unstopabble due to self peel late game, that is her niche - she got turned into a "real" adc with a kit that worked together really well

GP/Fiora/MF: This is yet to be determined, but honestly i think GP and fiora will be a bit OP albeit given new, viable positions in the meta

Meh:

Cassiopeia - she is actually somehwat viable and has a role as a late game ap dpser, but the nature ofher passive basically just encourages her to wait until 30 minutes to get strong

Poor: Zilean - Zilean whilst having his toxic automatic double q combo removed is now sadly just bad. IMO nthey should increase the range and travel speed of his q

terrible: Veigar - we all know why here. He is useless unless you are way better at your opponent in regards to them dodging/you hitting your e, which is needed for your w to hit

17 Comments

RiotRiot Scruffy6 votes

I agree with your high level point. At the start of any update we try to find the real core of the champ and preserve and enhance it rather than remove it or pretend it was never there. There are a few rare exceptions where core elements of a champion are not possible to keep in the game in a way that we think has a healthy future (poppy ult, AP sion one shot combo etc).

We also know that not every update has turned out perfect and we have tried to learn as much as we can from everything we've done (good and bad) to keep improving out update quality and connection to the original champs.

Anyway, just wanted to swing by and say that I hope we keep listening and updating champs in a way that you guys (players) really enjoy.

Lucifer2 votes

Just curious, but are you content with leaving Veigar in his current state? You pretty much butt fucked him and said, "eh, whatever." I think the best part was you guys calling it a buff =P

RiotRiot Scruffy6 votes

Veigar wasn't a champion update (the team I work on) but I know that the live gameplay designers did not intend to nerf him from the onset. It may be time for some tweaks for him if he's not viable so I'll run it by them and see if there is any room for a buff.

If he's already strong there may be other ways to improve his QoL without buffing him. Will investigate, no promises.

Crett3 votes

i really feel like veigar's power level isnt the problem. he is an unreliable champion for the most part, with an over reliance on his E.

the rest of his kit doesnt feel very functional if you dont land E, which makes him feel very clunky.

on the other hand, when you land his E, he instantly becomes reliable, able to burst with impunity. this is what causes the dissonance for players feeling torn about whether or not he is still any good at his job.

the baseline buffs were effective at bringing up his winrate, but they did little for his feel.

his kit revolves around his E, and i think that's his biggest problem

Archenz3 votes

Oh no he's very viable. He just doesn't fit in team comps with assassins.

His burst is tremendous. I've been stomped a few times by Veigar.

Thryale1 votes

it's not a question of viability with veigar per se. (yes his W lost a lot of viability with the reliability nerfs to his E) but more of a feel/frustration aspect.

Veigar still has most of his damage, he still has his best case, and he even has some added range for team fighting now. All of these can be seen as positives. But the real question here is, "at what cost?"

Veigar used to be my absolute favorite champ to play. It'd make me giggle with an evil glee when I'd ult + Q and enemy, walk away and score a kill only to hear my master of evil laugh with me. But now I find veigar nearly unplayable, and this frustrates me, as I spent a good chunk of money on FBV and I LOVED that skin. (the little sound effect on last hitting a minion has to be my favorite aspect)

But since these changes, I've lost agency with veigar. I am no longer in control of when I kill my opponent, and am forced to wait for them to screw up, or my team engages before I can find a target to nuke from orbit. Not only that, but I've also lost my last line of defense. I played a match with the new veigar one day vs a fed rengar. I see rango jump at me with his ult, I drop my E right where he'd land. I die instantly, and he gets stunned only after mangling my corpse.

But out of all of these changes, I'd say the one I dislike the most was converting my Q from a point and click to a skill shot. Yes, I know this was meant as compensation for the lack of safety veig would have with the nerfed E, allowing him to farm at further range, but honestly, this is was the straw that broke the camel's back. I severely miss my fade away Q's, and it's so much more frustrating trying to farm and harrass my opponent in lane now, and to top it off, his Q is now AoE, so my spell vamp runes that would let me sustain in lane with the best of them are now worthless.

So please, if anything, bring back veig's old Q. I miss playing my master of evil, and I don't want to feel like I wasted money on such an awesome skin I'll never use.

PS: with his new skin FBV's sound effect on last hitting with his Q doesn't sound right when you kill 2 minions at once. The overlap is kinda annoying. :/

excodar1 votes

{quoted}

I agree with your high level point. At the start of any update we try to find the real core of the champ and preserve and enhance it rather than remove it or pretend it was never there. There are a few rare exceptions where core elements of a champion are not possible to keep in the game in a way that we think has a healthy future (poppy ult, AP sion one shot combo etc).

We also know that not every update has turned out perfect and we have tried to learn as much as we can from everything we've done (good and bad) to keep improving out update quality and connection to the original champs.

Anyway, just wanted to swing by and say that I hope we keep listening and updating champs in a way that you guys (players) really enjoy.

Do they pay you to post on the forums? You post at least 10 times as much as any other rioter I've ever seen.

RiotRiot Scruffy10 votes

In a way, yes? (it's part of what we think is doing a good job)

Oerba No Naja1 votes

can we make cassio a poison mage again , rework this passive , put her e reset to 0.75 from 0.5, buff her ulti dmgs ?

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

Ya know, just cause he isn't Repertoire, doesn't mean he's just doing this for money...

Auryiel2 votes

Well you failed pretty hard at that with some champions :(

And to be perfectly honest, it really doesn't feel like you try sometimes. Some reworks are like ''Ok, guys, this is a well established character, let's make sure he/she retains the core identity the players have come to love!''

And then you have Cass

Cuix1 votes

{quoted}

We also know that not every update has turned out perfect and we have tried to learn as much as we can from everything we've done (good and bad) to keep improving out update quality and connection to the original champs.

So, seriously, what happened with Cass? Not gonna turn this into a rage or "Fire Stashu!" thread or whatever. I'm genuinely curious why that whole debacle came about. Internal misalignments? Lack of communication? 'Cause like, Sion went great, and apparently people mostly like the new GP, so at least one major element had to be different.

Taigongwang1 votes

Just hope that the recent backlash from the Morde and Fiora reworks has taken some effect internally. I havent talked to any Fiora player who liked the rework, nor have I talked to anyone that looks forward to Morde becoming a melee ADC/Support/Tank/Bruiser.....thing.

Hats off to whoever did Gangplank though. He feels like he did before, with an interesting zoning mechanic now. The Silver Serpent thing for his ult is kinda weird though. Doesnt really feel like it needs to be there, and that it was just tacked on to promote farming with the Q even more.

Oerba No Naja2 votes

The future reworks will be ok because now riot is listening to the community : Skarner Garen

But cassio needs another rework .

Dan Squared1 votes

The issue with Cassio is that that her original incarnation had two VERY distinct playstyles. She was either a long range AoE DoT mage who could spam powerful poisons and whittle you down.....or she was a DPS machine who once she got a DoT on you would go to town with Twin Fang spam

I personally feel they should have sought to really amplify the DoT mage feel...she a snake lady, basically THE perfect poison DoT mage. I would have much preferred the resetting E get removed and replaced with something else that highlighted the feeling of slowing poisoning your foes to death. Best feeling in the world for a player who loves DoT's is seeing someone flash away and escape off screen, and you just sit there knowing in 3 seconds or so your going to get a kill.

Instead they went with the Twin Fang spam DPS identity. Now granted she has had success in professional play which is great, and for the people who enjoyed her spam-E (heh) playstyle the rework was wonderful. But half of cassi players were left basically losing who they felt their champ was

Blade of Justic1 votes

I agree with everything except for the position of Sion.

Personally, I hated the reworked Sion kit and would have preferred if they took out his AP ratios and got rid of his shield.

Sion's ult was the most fun part for me and now all I get to do is run into things.

Otherwise, I'd have to say "yes" to the original post.

sp4411 votes

I'm just twiddling my thumbs hoping that the Urgot rework stays true to the character and combat style.

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