Serious question about Thornmail

Eye of Tomato·Jun 27, 2016·1 votes·771 views

Ok this isnt a rage post nor is it a "baseless complaint from a salty tank main" as ive been called in the past ;-; but i just can't help but feel that just feels... idk underwhelming nowadays with all of the cheap armor penetration available to anyone that can or just wants to build something like or obviously the ACTUAL major armor pen item(s) are meant as a reaction to this type of item but i just don't feel like and adc not even needing or because they just have and and a bit of lifesteal or mr ( , ) seems very, i don't wanna say "fair" but maybe, not fun? for anyone that prefers to put away the sword for a shield so to speak. Now this post was only about thornmail as an item not armor as a whole because to a degree stacking armor and health still reduces AD taken compared to just flat health

one thing to keep in mind just so that there isnt any confusion is that deals damage partially based on bonus armor, and reducing armor a la reduces said damage unless my moderate research was completely incorrect.

So, any thoughts?

9 Comments

LuluInWonderlandJun 27, 20162 votes

I agree. You used to need (still post-rework) roughly one other full armor item with a thornmail for it to be effective. Now it feels like you need 2 or 3 full armor items plus thornmail in order for it to "feel" useful. Armor pen has become too cheap IMHO. That's why so many ADCs are building cleaver and ghostblade instead of the "main" shredding items. It works on tanks just as well as squishies, and the cost is low for what you're getting.

67chromeJun 27, 20162 votes

with all of the cheap armor penetration available to anyone that can or just wants to build something like or
This season sucks for armor penetration.

Seasons 3 through 5 item 3071 item 3035 offered 55%+30 armor penetration, and Cleaver got max stacks in 4 physical damage applications.

item 3071 item 3142 is 30%+20 armor pen now, and cleaver takes 6 stacks to get 30%.

Armor pen is so expensive now a lot of assassins have decided that building tank to survive long enough to deal twice as much damage is more efficient than building damage to do twice as much damage.

seems very, i don't wanna say "fair" but maybe, not fun? for anyone that prefers to put away the sword for a shield so to speak.

Counterplay is a big part of LoL.

Evading all the attacks of an opponent, kiting them perfectly, watching them take multiple arrows to the knee, and then watching them kill you because 1 item allows a champion to completely counter an entire item-dependent carry's build would be disastrous for the game's health, and make Thornmail extremely overpowered.

So Thornmail doesn't do that, regardless of how hard you want it to. It mostly offers a Sunfire cape's level of protection with a Sunfire Cape's level of damage. Decent, generally enough to shut down the life-steal of an opponent completely and then some, but you're still going to have to use your actual kit to do lasting damage and kill an opponent.

I QJun 27, 20161 votes

I agree I think thornmail's dmg shouldn't be able to be lifestole over, but then again that is OP

LitznerJun 27, 20161 votes

Thornmail is useful in the right situations.

Here is a read on the math behind Thornmail.

http://www.leagueoflegendsmath.com/Articles/Thornmail_Math.html

Eye of TomatoJun 27, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Thornmail is useful in the right situations.

Here is a read on the math behind Thornmail.

http://www.leagueoflegendsmath.com/Articles/Thornmail_Math.html

while i feel that full magic pen on a tank is both excessive and potentially hilarious idk if that is realy practical or useful outside of maybe a full adc enemy comp

LitznerJun 27, 20161 votes

It can work well one some of them. For instance, Mundo, with MagPen Reds, MagPen Masteries, and Abyssal Scepter, is really nice without even thinking about Thornmail. It makes you an AOE monster, especially if you put Sunfire Cape on top of it. You are correct it is situational, but still very useful in the right situations.

Eye of TomatoJun 27, 20161 votes

part of me isnt even worried about USEFUL, its more about how having the item FEELS no different than not having it, before the rework having it meant that unless the ADC had last whisper and lifesteal and maybe banshee or GA for the mr (it DOES deal magic damage after all) that said adc COULD NOT attack you or risk killing themselves while you just danced in place (i admit with no shame whatsoever that i have done that to people before, 600 armor malphite ftw) and while i understand why they took that particular instance out, it was done so at a time where armorpen was either too expensive for certain champs/roles or suboptimal to build early on (looking at you old version of item 3035 )

ErockandrollJun 27, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Eye of Tomato,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xeu25TvA,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2016-06-27T03:53:18.003+0000)

part of me isnt even worried about USEFUL, its more about how having the item FEELS no different than not having it, before the rework having it meant that unless the ADC had last whisper and lifesteal and maybe banshee or GA for the mr (it DOES deal magic damage after all) that said adc COULD NOT attack you or risk killing themselves while you just danced in place (i admit with no shame whatsoever that i have done that to people before, 600 armor malphite ftw) and while i understand why they took that particular instance out, it was done so at a time where armorpen was either too expensive for certain champs/roles or suboptimal to build early on (looking at you old version of )

I think the problem with that is, flat penetration should be pretty much negligible against tanks. especially if your building 600 of it on the likes of Malphite.

The other problem with the items are. If the enemy has to completely counterbuild the tank. Their over all DPS will suffer, compared to the one building AS and crit chance. Also, lifesteal is post armor, so building any amount of armor is going to impact the enemies sustain.

Last thing, Thornmail is still a decent pick up in the pro scene, so competitively it's still in a good place. Not as powerful as it use to be, but still fills it's niche.

SasogwaJun 27, 20161 votes

Thornmail is absolute garbage compared to what it used to be. The scaling on armor and lower scaling with enemy's damage dealt was basically a huge buffs to adc's. It's slightly ok on heavy armor stackers like Malphite or Rammus but that's basically it.