Me and a friend were curious about the interaction between jhin and frozen heart so we decided to test it out to see if it lowered his attack speed or his bonus ad... funny enough it doesnt lower either. there was 0 difference in any stat with frozen heart right next to him. not sure if this is a bug or if jhin is just a counter for the warden's mail items.
RiotRiot Ranger XIV46 votesThis is intended. Jhin is special in this instance.
SnugglePuggle9449 votesWhat? That's stupid. He already has a ton of fancy stuff in his kit. He doesn't need to be resistant to the items that are supposed to defend against him.
Way to already ruin defensive itemization even further, Riot.
[slayer-jinx-unamused]
l Helios l13 votesHow is it ruined? His attack speed can't go down sure, but it can't go up either. No AS buff (WW W, Nunu W, etc.) or debuff (Nasus wither, FH passive, etc.) works on him. There's nothing wrong with that when his purpose isn't in attack fast; plus, he has a 1.5ish second reload time. That hurts attack speed too.
Just build Randuin's to deal with his crits. That does the job better.
10110011100024 votesEvery AS buff directly buffs his AD.
CasterGilgamesh2 votesyou do realize that if frozen heart were to work on Jhin it would destroy him right?I don't think riot would allow one item to invalidate a champion especially something with no counter play such as a movement speed slow on something anyone can buy...
Retillin21 votesWhy? It's bad game design. Raises the bar on burden of knowledge, decreases "clarity", and majorly screws over tanks that build it as a core item.
RiotRiot Ranger XIV18 votesThe design aspect and why it works that way is because the passive reads, "It fires at a fixed rate.." I think this decreases the burden of knowledge as you said because when someone new reads, FIXED they would understand that it stays that way and doesn't change.
SaltyKracka33 votesYes, we don't actually expect it to affect his attack speed. It would be kind of nice if it had any effect though, whether it be decreasing his AD or even just offsetting the damage he gains from building attack speed.
Sir Yamazuki16 votes[{quoted}](name=Riot Ranger XIV,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xdwtf0EB,comment-id=000500010000,timestamp=2016-02-07T20:18:09.676+0000)
The design aspect and why it works that way is because the passive reads, "It fires at a fixed rate.." I think this decreases the burden of knowledge as you said because when someone new reads, FIXED they would understand that it stays that way and doesn't change.
"Additionally, his attack damage is increased by 2% - 40% (based on level) (+ 4% per 10% critical chance) (+ 2.5% per 10% bonus attack speed)."
I'm pretty sure that's the focus of this thread and not even his rate of fire, which his attack damage being unchanged is even mentioned in the first post, yet you didn't address that. If his attack speed is reduced by someone it makes sense for his attack damage to go down, and if his attack speed is increased it makes sense that it goes up. Expecting people to suddenly know he's yet another exception to the rule is completely unnecessary when it's not even mentioned anywhere other than figuring it out yourself and doesn't even make any sense at all from a design perspective either.
John Aran3 votesActually it does not since there is no bonus attack speed reduction.
(+2.5% per 10% bonus attack speed) = if you buff him ie give him bonus attack speed it raises his attack damage. Frozen heart states as follow : "Reduces the attack speed of nearby enemies by 15%". Applied to Jhin, the attack speed modifier is not applied since he fires at a fixed rate, and the attack damage is not lowered since it's not about Jhin bonus attack speed.
To lower his attack damage you would need an item (or debuff) that gives negative bonus attack speed (meaning it would not affect a champion that does not have any bonus attack speed, for example), and that doesn't exist.
Sir Yamazuki4 votes[{quoted}](name=John Aran,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xdwtf0EB,comment-id=00050001000000020000,timestamp=2016-02-07T23:30:59.940+0000)
Actually it does not since there is no bonus attack speed reduction.
(+2.5% per 10% bonus attack speed) = if you buff him ie give him bonus attack speed it raises his attack damage. Frozen heart states as follow : "Reduces the attack speed of nearby enemies by 15%". Applied to Jhin, the attack speed modifier is not applied since he fires at a fixed rate, and the attack damage is not lowered since it's not about Jhin bonus attack speed.
To lower his attack damage you would need an item (or debuff) that gives negative bonus attack speed (meaning it would not affect a champion that does not have any bonus attack speed, for example), and that doesn't exist.
In the case of Jin attack speed as a stat is not his rate of fire, it is simply another attack damage modifier. His attack speed increases while his rate of fire stays the same since it gets converted into attack damage, if he loses any attack speed it should convert into a reduction of attack damage based on his passive scaling.
His stats aren't the same as other champions, so you can't discuss it based on the rules of other champions. He also isn't the only champion who would be affected by attack speed slows differently than a standard champion would.
John Aran1 votesYes his stats are different, that's why it's not how it works. I saw someone talking about hecarim in this thread, thinking it's the same but it's not.
His attack speed increases
His attack speed can't increase except with lvl.
People are assuming that bonus attack speed increase his attack speed (even virtually), and that he receives bonus AD based on the difference, wich is untrue. That's why AS debuff do nothing, since they simply reduce his AS (wich can't be modified anyway) and have nothing to do with his bonus AS.
That's why I talked about "negative bonus AS" that doesn't exist.
TotalJerk37 votesIf attack speed buffs increases his AD, then it would naturally follow that attack speed debuffs would decrease his AD. I'm pretty sure anyone who is aware of the former would assume the latter.
cvrt13 votesI certainly assumed Nunu snowballs would lower Jhin's AD.
Retillin6 votesAnd they do not.
cvrt4 votesWhich means two things to memorize about Jhin (AS converts to AD, attack speed debuffs do nothing at all) rather than one (AS converts to AD in both directions).
AMYS GRAVE2 votesTwo things to memorize about 1 of his 4 passives.
DrCyanide16 votesSorry, I need this explained to me a bit more.
It's OK for Randuins Omen, an item designed to counter Critical Strikes, to counter Anivia and Karthus. Champions who don't have anything in their ability description saying that they crit, many of their players don't know it's a crit, and who aren't able to benefit from crit amplification... But they can be hurt by crit reduction?
Now we look at Jhin, who the player knows that Attack Speed translates to Attack Damage. A Jhin player, hit by an attack speed slow, would expect the damage decrease, regardless of if the person causing the attack speed slow expects it. And for some reason not all Attack Speed modifiers count against him?
Sorry, the reasoning is completely backwards. Why is it when the player expects to be adversely affected by something it's prevented, but when they don't expect to be adversely effected it's allowed?
John Aran5 votesNow we look at Jhin, who the player knows that Attack Speed translates to Attack Damage.
That is the part you have wrong. There is no "attack speed translates to attack damage" since Jhin has no attack speed. He has a fixed rate of fire that can't be modified by any means.
The way it works is very simple actually. When you buy an item on Jhin, you should just read for example :
"Rapid Firecannon: +7.5% attack damage, +30% critical strike chance, +7% movement speed."
It isn't about attack speed stat, it's only about attack speed modifier.
Now i got downvoted on my other post for trying to explain it as if it was my responsability^^ So i'll stop there but it's just how it works.
DrCyanide3 votesWhat people don't get is why Jhin gets +2.5% AD when he gets +10% AS, but doesn't get -2.5% AD when he's effected by a -10% AS item or ability. Your explanation does absolutely nothing to explain that, so if you think it does you need to reword it.
John Aran2 votesI said it in my downvoted post but maybe you can't see it because of those downvotes.
There is no negative bonus AS item/debuff/effect in the game. To see it just look at the way the items and buffs/debuffs work : Every single AS item/buff apply to base AS Every single AS item/debuff apply directly to the actual rate of fire.
And I mean, people say it's unfair, but think about if what you say was true, and since debuffs are always applied after AND are multipliers, if you were to lower his AD the way people seem to want (for what reason ? not like he is too strong) his AD would be litteraly destroyed by a malphite e (for example). Meaning that you would not only reduce his "AS AD" but also his "AD AD" and his "CRIT AD".
So you make any AS debuff an AS, AD and CRIT debuff (well not true since he does benefit from crit chance, but still a stat that would be affected) if it was translated to any other champion. That's the unfair solution to me. EDIT : not only that but you reduce the damage output of his skills on top of the AAs wich would make any AS debuff twice as effective.
McBam1 votes[{quoted}](name=John Aran,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xdwtf0EB,comment-id=0005000100000004000100000000,timestamp=2016-02-08T10:29:00.672+0000)
I said it in my downvoted post but maybe you can't see it because of those downvotes.
There is no negative bonus AS item/debuff/effect in the game. To see it just look at the way the items and buffs/debuffs work : Every single AS item/buff apply to base AS Every single AS item/debuff apply directly to the actual rate of fire.
And I mean, people say it's unfair, but think about if what you say was true, and since debuffs are always applied after AND are multipliers, if you were to lower his AD the way people seem to want (for what reason ? not like he is too strong) his AD would be litteraly destroyed by a malphite e (for example). Meaning that you would not only reduce his "AS AD" but also his "AD AD" and his "CRIT AD".
So you make any AS debuff an AS, AD and CRIT debuff (well not true since he does benefit from crit chance, but still a stat that would be affected) if it was translated to any other champion. That's the unfair solution to me. EDIT : not only that but you reduce the damage output of his skills on top of the AAs wich would make any AS debuff twice as effective.
Pretty sure a lot of ad carries are destroyed by malphite (vayne, tristana, jinx?). Isn't that the point? Why does Jhin get a free pass?
FantasySniper3 votesThis. So much this.
Flemman4 votesas much as that passive say it, it's no as easy to read enemy passive when you are in a game (maybe some work can be do in that regards when you will upgrade the death recap, include a champ info page that you can read even if that champ is in the fog of war)
another question that come to my mind is, if as boost boost his AD instead, shoudn't as debuff decrease his ad?
Big Sexy Himself11 votesThe controversy, I think, is that Jihn benefits from AS by directly converting it into AD. No one is arguing his actual fire rate, they're arguing that he benefits from getting attack speed at all. But notice how 
can benefit from getting movespeed and converting it into AD, but when he suffers Movespeed reduction, his AD actually goes down! This isn't always looked at specifically, but it allows players to feel like they can actually impact him in a different way while still allowing the hecarim to feel the benefits from spells, items and all effects that impact his MS into AD. Its just dumb that Jihn has virtually the exact same system with a different stat, but doesn't actually suffer the same as Hecarim does by AS slows
John Aran3 votesThe thing is the two passives are very different in the way they work.
Hecarim does benefit from bonus movement speed (he runs faster !) AND he receives bonus attack damage based on his bonus movement speed. So the game simply take his movement speed every 0.25s, compare it to his base value, if it's higher it gives 15-30% of the difference in bonus attack damage, if not it does nothing. That's why any slow will decrease hecarim's bonus AD.
Meanwhile Jhin does not benefit from bonus attack speed. The stat is simply transformed in another one. 10% AS means 2.5% AD for him (and MS on crits). Is it fair, is it balanced, i don't know, but it works indeed as intended i guess.
Another example is how hecarim bonus AD is affected by the MS softs caps, meaning the bonus AD is calculated off the real MS he has, whereas Jhin bonus AD is not affected by any AS cap since it's based off bonus AS only, not his actual AS.
OneSmoothDude5 votesThe issue is that they are different in the way they work, when logically speaking, they shouldn't be.
AMYS GRAVE6 votesFrom the lol wiki:
Every Moment Matters: Jhin's Critical strike icon critical strikes deal 25% reduced damage, but grant 10% (+ 4% per 10% bonus attack speed) movement speed for 2 seconds.
Additionally, his attack damage is increased by 2% - 40% (based on level) (+ 4% per 10% critical chance) (+ 2.5% per 10% bonus attack speed).
shouldn't Frozen heart lower his bonus move speed and his bonus attack damage from his passive though?
Twitch Chat2 votesFrom the lol wiki:
shouldn't Frozen heart lower his bonus move speed and his bonus attack damage from his passive though?
An AS debuff reducing AD and MS would make even less sense than how it works right now I think.
cvrt5 votesIt's a nerf to every other champ which has attack-speed slows in their kit, though.
Akali is SO HOT7 votesHe gets increased damage for having more Attack Speed but he still fires at the same rate. If his Attack Speed is reduced then he still fires at the same rate but just loses AD. I don't think that's too hard to understand
Indominus Don3 voteshe doesnt lose AD from AS debuffs is the issue
Retillin1 votesYeah it's not too hard to understand. But he doesn't lose that AD when his Attack Speed would be lowered. (Warden's Mail, Nunu snowball, Frozen Heart, ect.)
Decrit2 votesWell, regarding attack speed it is clear. Regarding ad is particular instead because it does not lower nor increase from attack speed changes apparently. It makes him particular teambuild and strategy wise, in that regard.
Not sure about what crit buffs do to him thought.
EDIT: ok i read wrong, apparently the AD changes based on buffs and debuffs, but looks like debuffs act like hecarim passive where it can only lower it to base value and not further. can somebody try it out with, like against a nunu?
Ecodeath4 votesso do as buffs like warwicks call not increase his atk speed either?
RiotRiot Ranger XIV28 votesIt stays at that attack speed always.
Duke Anax44 votesHe does get bonus AD from that though.
Why is Jhin affected (bonus AD) by all of the AS buffs, but none of the AS reduction?
Makes no sense.
AMYS GRAVE4 votesthis ^
CaodeKitsune11 votesThis is weird. I'm downvoting a Rioter for the first time.
Warwicks skill increases his attack speed number, which increases his damage.
No one thinks it'll increase the rate he fires.
Frozen heart's attack speed debuff apparently does not lower his damage, according to this thread.
That has to be a bug, if that's so.
Duke Anax2 votesdon't donvote, after all he is right (in this post) Jhins attack speed is always the same. just how attack spped modifiers affect his damage is wonky.
CaodeKitsune3 votesThis whole thread isn't about speeding up his attacks though, despite what the rioters have commented on. The downvote was for missing the point.
Mecha KhaZix12 votesFrozen heart's attack speed debuff apparently does not lower his damage, according to this thread.
That has to be a bug, if that's so.
Jhin's damage is increased by +%AS.
AS reduction does not reduce +%AS, it reduces Total AS.
Therefore' AS reduction does not reduce Jhin's AD.
People are misunderstanding how game mechanics work.
Sire Hippington17 votesI think it's more the case that they question why the mechanics work the way they do. For most people, the mechanics behind it aren't of mater, just the result, and the result is that Jhin is affected by as-buffs due his passive, but unaffected by as-debuffs, which obviously is odd.
'Bu-bu-but that's how game mechanics work' -- nothing but a lazy excuse in most cases. It would be only minor effort to change how the mechanic works in this case
CaodeKitsune1 votesI see! I am mistaken, thank you!
RiotRiot Ranger XIV10 votesHey Indominus Don and everyone else that posted here,
Looking into Jhin, there is a bug. He should not lose attack speed because it is 'fixed'.
However, saying that he should still be punished in a way by attack speed sub-tractors since he gains AD from attack speed.
I am not promising it will be fixed by 6.3 but I can say that it is a bug and I apologize for misunderstanding what the threat was really focusing on. I appreciate you all posting and feeling so passionate about this.
Retillin1 votesA bug? This was posted many times on the PBE. Was it just over looked there?
Stexe1 votes[{quoted}](name=Riot Ranger XIV,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=xdwtf0EB,comment-id=0012,timestamp=2016-02-08T17:27:18.902+0000)
Hey Indominus Don and everyone else that posted here,
Looking into Jhin, there is a bug. He should not lose attack speed because it is 'fixed'.
However, saying that he should still be punished in a way by attack speed sub-tractors since he gains AD from attack speed.
I am not promising it will be fixed by 6.3 but I can say that it is a bug and I apologize for misunderstanding what the threat was really focusing on. I appreciate you all posting and feeling so passionate about this.
That's weird since when I talked to Gypsylord about the very same thing he said it was intended. That he shouldn't have less damage from attack speed slows.
delonix8 votesIt is not a bug, it has to do with the way Jhin's attack speed works. Jhin's base attack speed is semi-static. It increases with level, but cannot otherwise by changed. Positive changes to attack speed are instead converted into an AD modifier. Negative changes to attack speed attempt to reduce his base attack speed, but cannot.
Currently, Frozen Heart and other attack speed reductions attempt to lower attack speed, so if they worked at all they would only affect Jhin's attack speed. As all of Jhin's bonus attack speed never actually affects his base attack speed, it doesn't really make sense for Frozen Heart, etc., to lower his attack damage. It would work that way if Jhin's passive functioned like Hecarim/Rammus/Galio, where one stat is kept, but also converted into another stat. It does not work when Jhin's passive makes his base attack speed semi-static.
Arcade Andrew10 votesPoint of the thread is that getting an AS reduction on Jihn should convert the lost AS to lost AD instead