Dragons Offer Too Much Incentive

Arreis11·Nov 21, 2019·2 votes·1,206 views

Maybe it's just my elo, but in all honestly I got pretty numb to botlane getting ganked over and over throughout the season with no real repercussion for the camp on the map. This is highlighted even more so when a permanent dragon buff is up while a possible take tower advantage is present. Mostly cause it feels useless to go for herald. It may be too early to tell, but in every game the dragons have taken priority even over baron. My suggestion is this;

after a dragon is killed the newly spawned dragon switches places with herald
if herald is taken before a dragon dies the dragon does not move, meaning they switch ONLY when a dragon is killed
this system will repeat until elder
this now shifts vision and objective control and alleviates some of the pressure bot, if only slightly
of course this could be abused by a camp that also uses herald to their benefit, but hopefully your team is reacting
the cost of losing dragon to herald should be more weighted
i think it would be cool if there was a territorial dispute animation between herald and the dragon
the symbol doesn't have to move to let everyone know what dragon is next

I also think the idea below would be pretty neat but, honestly it doesn't need to happen. Both elder and baron are decent advantages, though baron might need some more oomph.

every five minutes baron and elder have a little dispute between themselves and switch places
this fight takes place over one minute, so teams have time to scramble and/or scrap themselves
this would make the vision battle a little more harder and decisions to be more decisive, as you could baron prep only to have baron take a trip botlane

In my opinion baron now doesn't measure up to the elder dragon buff. So as a counter, I think if your team prioritizes baron, the buff could also have an addition of "being near an [x] amount of friendly champions means you can't be Elder Executed". Like a sorta "band together buff" versus "death from above". If you have the damage they're dead anyway, and as enemies dwindle you get that amazing animation.

11 Comments

vgamedudeNov 21, 20192 votes

Not just dragon. ADCs are the strongest overall role so it is just too incentivized to go there all the time. Mid champions roam there and even top laners tp there.

To change this the lane as a whole would have to be weaker but nobody will ever do that or let the game have more variety

Arreis11Nov 21, 20191 votes

There was that one period of time where adcs had been nerfed to the ground. There was a lot of variety then, but most adc mains couldn't get over that block to their entire role. Quite frankly removing a role off the map isn't very fair to people who mained it. I agree there has to be some changes to botlane, like some number tuning to their scaling, but I'm hoping that moving dragon will give more plays to toplane, jungle and mid while botlane can farm or make a decent 2v2 without interference.

vgamedudeNov 23, 20191 votes

{quoted}

There was that one period of time where adcs had been nerfed to the ground. There was a lot of variety then, but most adc mains couldn't get over that block to their entire role. Quite frankly removing a role off the map isn't very fair to people who mained it. I agree there has to be some changes to botlane, like some number tuning to their scaling, but I'm hoping that moving dragon will give more plays to toplane, jungle and mid while botlane can farm or make a decent 2v2 without interference.

CHANGING THE CHAMPIONS THAT CAN BE PLAYED IN THE ROLE IS NOT REMOVING THE ROLE

This is why adc mains are so entitled. They are the ONLY role/class static combo in the entire game. Every other lane has loads of classes played in that role, in bot lane carry its just marksmen.

Stop thinking like this, this isn't how any other lane works.

DestructoDaveNov 23, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Not just dragon. ADCs are the strongest overall role so it is just too incentivized to go there all the time. Mid champions roam there and even top laners tp there.

To change this the lane as a whole would have to be weaker but nobody will ever do that or let the game have more variety

Has nothing to do with that. Its a 2 person lane, and both people are generally always lower level than whoever roams down there. Couple that with the fact ADCs are generally very weak early and easy kills, and most supports are squishy, too, it makes little sense to roam top lane for a single potential kill that is much harder to secure when botlane has dragons, and much easier targets, and MORE targets to kill. Its also got 2 other people in the lane to help push down turrets/get plates, share assist gold.

It really doesnt matter what is botlane; the fact of the matter is its where you can have the most impact on the game as a whole; you can boost 3+ people on your team, while shutting down 2+ on theirs, and the risk of being counter-killed is far less. A fed top laner can easily 2v1 and even 3v1 at times; it doesnt matter how fed an ADC is if you land a syndra combo at lvl 6 hes probably just dead.

vgamedudeNov 23, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Has nothing to do with that. Its a 2 person lane, and both people are generally always lower level than whoever roams down there. Couple that with the fact ADCs are generally very weak early and easy kills, and most supports are squishy, too, it makes little sense to roam top lane for a single potential kill that is much harder to secure when botlane has dragons, and much easier targets, and MORE targets to kill. Its also got 2 other people in the lane to help push down turrets/get plates, share assist gold.

It really doesnt matter what is botlane; the fact of the matter is its where you can have the most impact on the game as a whole; you can boost 3+ people on your team, while shutting down 2+ on theirs, and the risk of being counter-killed is far less. A fed top laner can easily 2v1 and even 3v1 at times; it doesnt matter how fed an ADC is if you land a syndra combo at lvl 6 hes probably just dead.

It has everything to do with that. If the only reason was that it was a 2 person lane, one of the people in that lane wouldnt always be a marksmen.

DestructoDaveNov 23, 20191 votes

{quoted}

It has everything to do with that. If the only reason was that it was a 2 person lane, one of the people in that lane wouldnt always be a marksmen.

They aren't. Mages and bruisers have already been played down there all season. And its still ganked all the time, because it has the highest potential affect on the entire game, because of the amount of people there and the proximity to early objectives; plates and dragons.

You can have a hate boner for ADCs all you want, but its pretty logical as to why people gank that lane. You can ruin 2+ people and get 3+ people ahead anytime you have success down there, take early objectives, and the targets are usually fairly easy to deal with even if they have a lead. An ADC with a BF sword will still die to a Fizz/Zed/Syndra/Xin/Kha/whatever shows up down there, and hvae little risk of a counter kill. Meanwhile the same cannot be said for ganking a renekton/panth/whatever top lane, or a Syndra/whatever midlane.

vgamedudeNov 23, 20191 votes

{quoted}

They aren't. Mages and bruisers have already been played down there all season. And its still ganked all the time, because it has the highest potential affect on the entire game, because of the amount of people there and the proximity to early objectives; plates and dragons.

You can have a hate boner for ADCs all you want, but its pretty logical as to why people gank that lane. You can ruin 2+ people and get 3+ people ahead anytime you have success down there, take early objectives, and the targets are usually fairly easy to deal with even if they have a lead. An ADC with a BF sword will still die to a Fizz/Zed/Syndra/Xin/Kha/whatever shows up down there, and hvae little risk of a counter kill. Meanwhile the same cannot be said for ganking a renekton/panth/whatever top lane, or a Syndra/whatever midlane.

They are. You can't just say bruisers and mages have been there and ignore how abysmal their play rate is. Especially at higher level games like pro and high elo.

Marksmen is too strong. And even when you rarely did see something other than a marksmen bot it was typically coupled with playing a marksmen mid like tristana.

Numbers don't lie. Bot lane carry is 99 percent marksmen. The "ATTACK DAMAGE" carry role should mean alot of things but it doesn't It literally just means marksmen.

DestructoDaveNov 23, 20191 votes

{quoted}

They are. You can't just say bruisers and mages have been there and ignore how abysmal their play rate is. Especially at higher level games like pro and high elo.

Marksmen is too strong. And even when you rarely did see something other than a marksmen bot it was typically coupled with playing a marksmen mid like tristana.

Numbers don't lie. Bot lane carry is 99 percent marksmen. The "ATTACK DAMAGE" carry role should mean alot of things but it doesn't It literally just means marksmen.

It alwasy amuses me when people turn entire arguments into their own bias. You hate ADCs. You have warped your mind to believe that people just gank bot lane to shut down ADCs. People who gank botlane dont give a damn about shutting down anyone. They are trying to get themselves fed to carry the game.

When you are thirsty, you go to where the water is. Botlane has 2 people; it has the highest reward to risk ratio of getting yourself fed. You can roam bot on your Fizz/Syndra/Zed, get 2 kills on easy to kill targets; usually immobile, too, and transfer that into your own ability to carry. It has nothing to do with worrying about shutting down what you consider the most OP role. That does not even factor into people's equations. You know when you hit 6, you are higher level, you have higher potential to get kills and gold and far less risk than going into the jungle or going top lane.

Its as simple as that. It also helps that dragons are OP, and killing 2 people down there gives you the best chance to take plates and take dragons since there are more people to do those at that time.

The vast majority of us will always play a solo Q game. Always. And in a solo Q game, its all about getting yourself fed and carrying the game, and the easiest way to do that is to kill a lot of people, and the easiest people to usually kill to start snowballing is the botlane.

vgamedudeNov 23, 20191 votes

{quoted}

It alwasy amuses me when people turn entire arguments into their own bias. You hate ADCs. You have warped your mind to believe that people just gank bot lane to shut down ADCs. People who gank botlane dont give a damn about shutting down anyone. They are trying to get themselves fed to carry the game.

When you are thirsty, you go to where the water is. Botlane has 2 people; it has the highest reward to risk ratio of getting yourself fed. You can roam bot on your Fizz/Syndra/Zed, get 2 kills on easy to kill targets; usually immobile, too, and transfer that into your own ability to carry. It has nothing to do with worrying about shutting down what you consider the most OP role. That does not even factor into people's equations. You know when you hit 6, you are higher level, you have higher potential to get kills and gold and far less risk than going into the jungle or going top lane.

Its as simple as that. It also helps that dragons are OP, and killing 2 people down there gives you the best chance to take plates and take dragons since there are more people to do those at that time.

The vast majority of us will always play a solo Q game. Always. And in a solo Q game, its all about getting yourself fed and carrying the game, and the easiest way to do that is to kill a lot of people, and the easiest people to usually kill to start snowballing is the botlane.

BOTLANE HAS TWO people we have established that, what you also ignore is that one of the two, the "CARRY", is practically required to be a marksman. This is simple fact.

DestructoDaveNov 23, 20191 votes

{quoted}

BOTLANE HAS TWO people we have established that, what you also ignore is that one of the two, the "CARRY", is practically required to be a marksman. This is simple fact.

Hahhaha your downvoting my posts. Thats cute.

Its not a simple fact; not even at the pro level. Mages and bruisers have been played there IN PRO GAMES. And they are even more viable in solo Q.

And regardless if its Marksmen or not, that is NOT the reason any solo Q top/mid/jg ganks botlane, which is your core argument. The reason they gank the lane, is because its 2 underleveled people, dragon is down there, and there are more people to push(and more help). They are not ganking because of your reason. The simplest answer is usually the easiest one, and people arent going, "well I gotta keep this ADC down!" No, they are going, "I need to abuse my lvl 6, where can I go? Oh yea lets go throw my ult on this Ashe/Zyra botlane. Gotta be able to pick at least one of these lvl 4's off."

So thats your core arguement. ADCs are so OP, that you just have ot gank them. When the simplest, and most logical answer, is there is more, and easier, people to kill botlane. And, there is more help. LIke you 100% go to the naut support lane to get your kill instead of the damn Vlad toplane to do it, where there is actual gank assist, and most supports are loaded with CC to help secure it.

vgamedudeNov 23, 20191 votes

LOOK UP THE PLAY RATES. It is simple fact. You're arguing against data. Heimer has like a 2 percent winrate according to op gg, less on champ gg, swain is at .5 percent and those are the only two even listed that are non marksmen.

In worlds early you saw people try mage bot lane and garen yuumi, but guess what? Once you got closer to the championship everyone started playing xayah, kaisa, sivir, and varis.

There isn't some magic amount of variety in this game that you think there is. It's marksmen show in bot and always has been