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MMR and reward system

Kroggy··1 votes·2,801 views

Hello everyone,

As you might have already guessed, this is a post about MMR and the gruelsome grind in ranked. A lot of people complaining about the ranked system how it is not fair to play against much much more skilled opponents due to their hidden MMR. The whole meaning of MMR is to let people( especially smurfs) play against other people with their own skill level. Seem fair enough to me. I mean, why should a 6'5" dude play, lets say basketball, against a bunch of 8 graders with an avarage size of 5'6". Seems kinda fair. So what RIOT did was to create a hidden rank, so you can play against people with your own skill level. What they forgot is in my opinion to create a secondary layer of rewards. So there a 2 ratings/rankins, but there is only one (visual) reward system? let that sink in, because this is the root of all problems in my humble opinion. To further widen my argument: So this 6'5" dude plays a game, lets say this is a 5 v 5 basketball game for no reason. Lets say, if this game is won, everyone gets a reward. So this 6'5" guy is so good during his game, that he carries the game. BUT when the game is won, he is not beeing rewarded. Only the others are. In my opinion, when it comes to showing what your true skill level is, it needs to be respected. At the end its all about respect. I would love for RIOT to introduce a secondary reward system for skilled people, not judging by the 1000 games they played and still stayed brone 1, but always playing against gold and plat people. Like a reallife example: the 6'5" guy has to play a lot of games and put hard work and effort into playing in the NBA. Still on the way there he is beeing seen and everyone knows about his skill. Nobody is trashtalking and saying, this guy is so bad, as he obviously crushes his opponents that ARE playing in the NBA. You get what i mean? Its all about respect. From what i can see RIOT is hardcore disrespecting the majority of the lower elo skill level, which is actually the majority of all the league players. RIOT don't shit on your fan base! A secondary reward system would be at least fair enough for me. i dont care what "rank" i am, as long as i am beeing rewarded for playing good.

16 Comments

Sleeping Bat2 votes

One word - promo. This an artificially created bottleneck has only one purpose - to slow climbing. Rito thinks that if force you to devote all your free time only to League then a players will not have time for other games and will not run away. 200 years of collective experience once again "shine".

Jng Account2 votes

One word - demotion shield. This is an artificially created bottleneck has only one purpose - to lower losing streaks effects on your rank so you feel better.

If you cant win 60% of your next 5 games, you really shouldnt get to next division.

We can argue that BO3 promos are toxic, but are you willing to get down as soon as you drop at 0?

(I am, just askin about you, bcs it doesnt sound like fun, to win one, get higher, lose one, get back, win one, get higher and again and again)

Kroggy2 votes

bruh, i get what you are saying, but don't twist this thread. It is not about MMR. For me it is about somehow to see my "true skill" somehow RIOT meant to play better people against better people, but still saying your bronze5 even if you are somhow not (according to their system). This is somewhat a paradox in my mind. I mean what you say is true, though, the system changed this season. It is not as simple as you write it. If it would be exactly like how you say it is, i would not complain at all.

Sleeping Bat2 votes

This is somewhat a paradox in my mind.

No paradox, Rito just wants you to be addicted to the game, and that's why they lying to you and created the system that forced 50% winrate just so you don't have time for other games and only devote all of your time to LoL.

Kroggy1 votes

I am not sure i can agree to this, but what i can agree on is: to me it feels like, just imagine, my mother says i have to go to the talented math class, because i am THAT good, and at the same time she say: "you suck boy" because i am not better then the 50 % of the other people in the talented class. i mean, WTF?!

Sleeping Bat1 votes

One word - demotion shield.

This should also be deleted. Only losing / gaining LP points based on player actions, as is done in other games. Now Rito commentsbot pls get lost, no one takes you seriously.

Jng Account1 votes

i mean, sure, if you are fine with streaks having bigger impact, not only winning ones, but most importanly losing one, then fine.

Im Riot bot for not agreeing with your stupid theories like

if someone got a S in the rank then he is probably a super player and let's throw him in a team full of disabled people that he will give them win for free

or all of your "forced 50% winrate" bullshit...

Crist, I said yesterday that I wont talk to you again and here we are, this is last comment, probably just for today, bcs I'll forgot.

GL with your delusions, EUNE brother, hope you wont infect other players with your tinfoil stuff.

Kroggy2 votes

first of all, i would wish to discuss this more appropriate. second of all, the root of all this is not the system itself, the problem is the disrespect. At one side you have an MMR(which is good) at the other side, you have to grind. maybe i am ok with that one too. But i am not ok with the system hiding the one factor that is making my matches, but ranking me according to system that is not matching me. I would love to see RIOT somehow simply to indicate the skill i have, just indicate. OR at least rank the people that have a high MMR throughout the whole season, give them a cookie, give them an emble, give them something!

Jng Account2 votes

Yeah, I can understand that. I personally prefer when everything is transparent, but I can already hear ppl that wouldnt climb or that would start losing mmr bcs they arent improving cry.

I also think that you are overvalueting the difference between mmr and rank after dozens of matches.

I wont lie, I smurfed a lot, got many accs permed, thats not the point. My point is that, from my experience, after approximately 90-150 games, your mmr should be really close to your rank, unless you started tryharding recently, in which case, it might take again some games to assign your rank to your mmr.

But I get your point, that it would be nice to get some hints that you might be better than where you are, if they wont show us real numbers.

Kroggy1 votes

ok, meaning MMR is not as simple calculated as i believed in first place. Also one more thing, from your experience, do you think climbing the ladder got easier, harder or stayed the same with this season? just curious what a veteran says about this one.

Jng Account2 votes

I think the easiness peaked in S9. Back in S1 and S2 we actually saw our Elo, but my memories are kinda blurred, but seeing your gains/losses was nice. Other seasons felt normalish I suppose(dynamic que was oof tho). I think that S10 is still easier than like S3/4.

If you are interested in doing research on your own, to see some actual numbers, you can just google something like "lol rank distribution (either season or year)"

Kroggy1 votes

Thanks man, i appreciate your input alot! I guess it was my first instinct to get my idea out of there and to here how other people feel about this one. I can see that RIOT is trying to do a good job on ranking. When i look at football games how often i hear " oh the referee is a moron" or something like this. It is not an easy tast to judge and be righteous at the same time. I will look into the distribution and do more homework on the ranking system.

Kai Guy1 votes

http://www.moserware.com/2010/03/computing-your-skill.html For Skill Raiting theory ^

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pglxege-gU For Dev theory and implementation. Including some of the "shady" things they will do.

If you ever are looking for something let me know. I understand Elo system best but have found a bunch of MMR documentation + designer theory.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EitZRLt2G3w&t=29s This series is educational but a bit more engaging then most.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kB2UADNoRUA&t=29s The video that got me interested in studying more detail about MMR. Rabbit makes a Rough system as he does not use any Bayesian inference but it does work as eventually the curve is accurate for skill. (I think 400-600 games is far to long for a real life application thou.)

It sounds like he tried to keep it Zero sum by keeping the point gains same but giving players different shares. Where as many MMR systems do not, and they run adjustments on individual levels.

Hence, only if Alice and Bob have the same uncertainty, the TrueSkill ranking system’s mean skill update equation reduces to an ELO update equation. Note that the TrueSkill ranking system’s update equation for the mean skill is thus not guaranteed to be zero sum https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/project/trueskill-ranking-system/

Jng Account1 votes

the gruelsome grind in ranked

Why does ppl expect to be in their rank after 30-50 games?

whole meaning of MMR is to let people( especially smurfs) play against other people with their own skill level.

Meaning is to let players with +-same skill to play vs each others. Smurfs destroy this balance.

So what RIOT did was to create a hidden rank, so you can play against people with your own skill level.

Riot started using hidden number, bcs they pitty bad players, not only you would see yourself stagnate and not climb, your mmr would start shrinking without artificial mmr inflation after some time.

not judging by the 1000 games they played and still stayed brone 1, but always playing against gold and plat people

This is very unlikely situation, especially with more than hundred games.

RIOT is hardcore disrespecting the majority of the lower elo skill level

They are literally covering that number so you wont become pissed and quit.

(if you want to know more about mmr system, try to find Kai Guy, pretty chill and is willing to help us all)

Kroggy1 votes

thanks for the reply! Though my post is not about MMR! it is about the ranking system. I agree on a lot of your answer, though i see that you are not familiar enough with the casual players, that do NOT have 10 hours a day for playing, and therefore no time for grinding. This post is meant to fight on the ranking system, not the MMR. I get why MMR exist, this is a good thing. I fight on the ranking system in which we play now. i get also that it kinda filters smurfs. But what i dont agree with, is that they only have one rewarding system for your actual skill level. Simply transfer this into reallife, then you know what i mean. Take any example. Soccer, Football, Tennis. Go from rookie to pro palyers and how they got there. I am pretty much sure, noone ever was told that he or she sucked at what he or she does, because she lost to way better players. But this is how it feels like when playing LOL. i want to play lol and be rewarded for beeing good. Is that a bad thing to ask? i mean maybe i cannot grasp the whole situation, but this is how i feel about the situation, it feels disrespectful, thats all i am saying. i think a secondary reward system or at least something that indicates your actual MMR would be nice.

Darkdemon6531 votes

{quoted}

So this 6'5" dude plays a game, lets say this is a 5 v 5 basketball game for no reason. Lets say, if this game is won, everyone gets a reward. So this 6'5" guy is so good during his game, that he carries the game. BUT when the game is won, he is not beeing rewarded. Only the others are.

What are his teammates getting for the win that he isn't?

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