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AP Lives Matter

Best AN US··4 votes·1,034 views

The game is overwhelmingly in favor of AD champions. This is why AD champions are mostly played. AP is simply added to compositions for token damage diversity.

For starters, attack damage applies to auto attacks and for many AD champions this also scales with the abilities that they have. Ability Power as a stat applies to 'abilities only' while Attack Damage is apparently for auto attacks and abilities. Here, Attack Damage champions have their cake and eat it too. What is up with Riven? This is a champion that even has a shield that scales off of Attack Damage. How does this even make any sense?

(Not to mention that the whole concept of abilities scaling off of Attack Damage to begin with defies logic - this is what Ability Power should be. That's why it's called Ability Power. Attack Damage on a champion that has Abilities that scale on Attack Damage, that should not be called 'Attack Damage' - that should be called 'Everything Power.')

People say Zhonya is OP. That argument is extremely hypocritical and shortsighted. Give me the AP version of hex drinker / Maw. Give me the choices with how I can build on top of Void Staff. This is only fair due to the choices that are available with Last Whisper now. You can get 40% armor penetration from one item (+ extra uniques). You can't get more than 35% magic penetration from Void Staff.

Chiefly, and this is the main reason - AD champions have Blade of the Ruined King. This may not seem like a big deal, but it is. The reason is that it's a % Health Damage Dealing item. This makes it the only item in the game that can help realistically with tank busting.

Newsflash - Tanks are Enormous right now. Ever since the removal of Deathfire Grasp, AP Champions have been unable to adequately and fairly deal with the tanking power of an opposition. There is no longer a single AP item that deals a percentage of a target's HP. As an AP player, the only possible work around for this is to just simply pick Brand. His passive does 8% of maximum HP as magic damage to targets ablaze. This is the reason that Brand is as popular as he is right now, because people have noticed he's the only AP champ that can do any damage to non-squishies in this current environment.

The reason that Deathfire Grasp was removed, was basically LeBlanc. I agree, the addition of Deathfire Grasp into her burst combo was very unhealthy for the game. I think LeBlanc still is unhealthy. I think that the removal of Deathfire Grasp happened when they really should have actually just addressed LeBlanc herself in addition to any other outlying champions that they directly cited as unhealthy. Instead, they have crippled an entire class of immobile mages that they are now trying to hobble back together. The most foolish part about this is all they really needed to do in the first place was nerf or modify a very limited handful of champions, but instead they removed Deathfire Grasp, Leblanc remains undealt with in the eyes of many, and now they have to completely rework mages from the ground up in order to deal with, what was essentially a very simple problem.

Proof that Leblanc is still unhealthy was further evidenced by the trend of AD Leblanc Top that happened last year as a counter to the standard bruiser top. What the world observed was that, she's ranged, if you play ADC you could deal damage from a distance at all times vs a melee bruiser and always escape. There's highlights of Piglet doing this. The big stink this whole fad revealed was that even when going AD only Leblanc, her abilities still did significant damage from her base stats. Consuming a sigil repeats this same damage. Landing a chain root repeats this same damage. And, of course at any moment you can R repeat any one of these bursty spells and if skilled enough you can always run away. Even without a whole lot of AP LB is capable of providing immobile mage level damage while also being the most mobile and elusive of all the mages. Still, with a fed Leblanc, you get one shotted, there is no counter play. The removal of Deathfire Grasp has not been effective in keeping her out of competitive play.

In the end, we don't have Deathfire Grasp, you have Blade of the Ruined King. AD Champions can bust tanks while AP champions can't, unless they pick Brand.

AD champions don't need mana (or cooldowns for that matter) in order to auto attack. AP champions do. You may not have noticed this but there is a severe mana shortage in this game left in the wake of the fact that there are no longer mana pots.

AP Champions will run out of mana, set everything on cooldown, etc., trying to kill a tank. and will sometimes still be unable to kill the tank anyway. AD Champions have a chance of killing a tank if played correctly, and may not have to blow 100% mana, both summoners, and all CD's just to do it.

There's still no adequate AP jungle item. There can be debates on this but to most people who've played serious AP champions (not off AP, off Tank) and tried to jungle with them, it's pretty obvious. Unless there is a jungle item that provides at least 80 - 100 AP, it's not a final build item for a full AP offensive champion. For example, Fiddlesticks. Fiddlesticks only works if he has significant amounts of AP for his early to mid game Ults. In late game he has to be pretty much all AP. Fiddle is a one stat champion because he depends on drain to heal, sustain himself, and fight while being attacked. His lack of mobility, the nerfs to his fear time, the silence nerfs to his e, his dependence on blue, his mana costs, his squishiness (second lowest base HP in the game), the fact that drain is easily broken, that ignite is effective on him, that he has to stand still during drain (forcing him to commit), that warding completely ruins his ability to land Ult effectively due to the channel time of his Ult, that he can't clear lanes fast, that he can no longer provide enough to teams just on the strengths of his utility, all of these combined means that you can't really play him right now and expect to have a fair shot of winning in ranked (unless the other team is stupid in which case you could've picked anything). There's simply not enough reward going on when it comes to the risk versus reward associated with playing this champion.

If you think Fiddlesticks is unhealthy, the answer is quite simply - win the ward battle and you will win that game. Encouraging people to simply ward doesn't seem unhealthy for a game that has been underscoring the value of vision for years.

In the end, it's very clear that AD Champions rule the rift.

RIP DFG RIP Mana Pots NOT AT ALL RIP Mana Costs RIP AP Jungle (unless what you really are is AP / Tank) RIP AP % HP Damage RIP Balanced Masteries

There's only one thing to be said -

AP lives matter.

Who's with me?

27 Comments

MisterHealYoGirl3 votes

AP champions aren't in a terrible place right now. Their items are a little overpriced, but it's not as though they're unusable, and you've missed out a lot of their advantages.

The fact that autoattacks scale with AD isn't particularly remarkable, and that's taken into account when determining at their ability scalings.

Void Staff is actually better than the Last Whisper items, since it affects total MR rather than bonus. For example, if Rammus has 200 armor and MR at level 18, Ahri's Void Staff ignores 70 of his MR, while Jinx's Lord Dominik's Regards is ignoring 40 of his armor, since 100 of it is base armor. The stats on VS are also better, in terms of gold efficiency. You also seem to have forgotten that Liandry's Torment exists. It's an AP item that deals percent max health damage.

If you read the context posts about why DFG was removed, it wasn't because of any one specific champion; it's because it was a fairly unhealthy item that warped the metagame around itself. The post sums down to the fact that because it made assassination so reliable, assassins had very little power budget for ANYTHING but damage (escapes, mobility, split push, cool combos, whatever), and since all they could do was damage, whoever could do it best just outclassed their competitors.

Protip: if your thesis is that AP champions are super weak, don't go on about how LeBlanc is super strong right now. It's also important to note that since both AD and defensive itemization scales multiplicatively, a fight between a tank and an ADC is really just a stat check; if the tank is ahead, they'll probably kill the ADC. AD is no guarantee of tank-killing power; play Talon against Rammus and tell me how it goes.

Fiddlesticks is actually the best he's been in a long time; Runic Echoes is a lot better than Runeglaive for him. None of the weaknesses that you mentioned are weaknesses of itemization, they're weaknesses of Fiddlesticks. And he's STILL rocking the twelfth highest winrate of all junglers, even with a rising pick rate.

Overall, I think the main thing that might help demonstrate where AP champions fit is the triangle. ADCs, PROVIDED WITH AN ADEQUATE FRONTLINE, have the multiplicative scaling to cut through tanks' defenses. AP champions, with their longer range, high CC, and faster damage output, can destroy ADCs before they can react, since all of their damage comes out at once. Finally, tanks can often shrug off the linear scaling of AP champions, completing the triangle. ADCs kill tanks kill mages kill ADCs.

If mages were also good at killing tanks, the triangle breaks. Why would you pick an ADC at all if a mage would kill tanks just as effectively? That said, there are a few AP champions who specialize in killing and kiting tanks; Cassiopeia, Ryze, and Azir are all good examples. Brand can also this, combining his passive with Liandry's Torment, and Malzahar isn't too shabby either.

Best AN US1 votes

"Fiddlesticks is actually the best he's been in a long time"

No. He really isn't. It's unbelievable to even read this statement. I've been playing Fiddlesticks since season 3 and this statement is categorical not true by any standard of measurement (I guess if by 'a long time' you really mean a matter of weeks). One need to only look at the nerf history. Before the recent slight mana mini-buff making the cost of dark wind slightly cheaper and before Runic Echoes, which was also very recent. At this point before these things, Fiddlesticks was the weakest he had ever been since he'd been introduced into the game in 2009. You can feel free to check the stats on this.

Currently, the Mana reduction to his e is very minor. The mana really needs to be reduced to drain. This is because 1. drain is his main source of damage 2. you can breathe on drain to break drain, and thus in a fight he likely has to drain multiple times just to stay alive. 3. drain is already inherently balanced due to the nature of the skill which requires him to not move while channeling it. If you can't overpower drain (which you shouldn't be able to) you have the choice of being able to simply walk away from him and then start fighting him again. Fiddle on the other hand can't drain you and walk away from you at the same time. Max Drain cost 120 mana every single time you use it. This is 20 more than casting his Ultimate.

"If you read the context posts about why DFG was removed"

The only reason I mentioned this is because I did read and I watched the videos of people in the organization discussing this exact thing. It's not a point that I want to make for myself. This was literally their rationale - it was clear that they wanted to remove insta-kill bursting. A handful of champions were mentioned by them, not me. One of those champions was LB. You can look into it.

"Protip: if your thesis is that AP champions are super weak, don't go on about how LeBlanc is super strong right now."

The way my argument here functions is as follows - AP is so weak as a whole that only a few handful of AP remain strong. The fact that DFG is taken away from champions such as LeBlanc and they are still played at the pro level, points to a fundamental balance problem with that specific champion - this is driven home by the fact that meanwhile many other AP champions remain questionable.

It makes sense if you know how to read.

"None of the weaknesses that you mentioned are weaknesses of itemization, they're weaknesses of Fiddlesticks. And he's STILL rocking the twelfth highest winrate of all junglers, even with a rising pick rate."

Correct. I listed Fiddle's weaknesses. Those should present enough of a challenge for a player. He deserves a jungle item that he can actually use. Not a jungle item that delays his Zhonya's and power spike, fundamentally working against him (what are you going to do with only 60 AP and no CDR?). Keep in mind he was one of the longest Ult CDs in the game. Also the removal of DFG, or any %HP AP item, prevents him and the rest of APs from properly dealing with tanks. So, I can see how my observations of Fiddlesticks may have been phrased in a challenging way, but it actually speaks to my point, which is focused on itemization.

Further, the 12th highest win rate among junglers? That's not really an amazing stat. How is this in any way impressive? How many true meant for jungle as priority jungler's are there in the game 13?

His pick rate is totally rising. It's at 3.8%. Whereas weeks ago he was in the top ten of least picked champions. So, you're right, he's not on the list anymore - the list of truly odd and dysfunctional champions i.e. Galio, Morde, Karthus, Urgot. Yea, so, he's not on that list, so that must mean he's not only in a really good place right now but he's totally stronger than he's ever been. Even last year when Fiddle got nerfed hard he maintained a pick rate of about 6-7%. I really don't see how a 47% win rate and 4% pick rate indicate that he's flying high. Honestly, the only reason the win rate doesn't look so bad is because the only people who ever dare to play him are probably very experienced with him.

"Overall, I think the main thing that might help demonstrate where AP champions fit is the triangle. ADCs, PROVIDED WITH AN ADEQUATE FRONTLINE, have the multiplicative scaling to cut through tanks' defenses. AP champions, with their longer range, high CC, and faster damage output, can destroy ADCs before they can react, since all of their damage comes out at once. Finally, tanks can often shrug off the linear scaling of AP champions, completing the triangle. ADCs kill tanks kill mages kill ADCs.

If mages were also good at killing tanks, the triangle breaks. Why would you pick an ADC at all if a mage would kill tanks just as effectively? That said, there are a few AP champions who specialize in killing and kiting tanks; Cassiopeia, Ryze, and Azir are all good examples. Brand can also this, combining his passive with Liandry's Torment, and Malzahar isn't too shabby either."

Why does there have to be a triangle? I've never heard the game company ever speak of such a triangle. I've never heard anybody ever speak about this game in this particular way.

Your point here is that mages should not be allowed to kill tanks?

Then why does the game fully assist squishy AD assassins in killing tanks? AD assassins kill ADCs and tanks. Doesn't this break the triangle? Why is okay if only AD gets to do it?

Meanwhile tanks kill everyone, reason - they never die (defensive items are more gold efficient), and for some reason many tanks still do massive amounts of damage. It sounds like this breaks the triangle as well.

In the end, it seems clear that you disagree with my argument on the grounds that you think it SHOULD be unfair for APs.

"If mages were also good at killing tanks, the triangle breaks."

To you, APs are second class citizens and NOT allowed to kill the same people that everyone else kills.

Thank you for supporting my argument.

MisterHealYoGirl2 votes

Fiddlesticks has had a lot of trouble ever since the removal of Magus, about seven months ago, and Runic Echoes is a lot better for him than Runeglaive was. That's all I was trying to say in that portion.

What I got out of the context posts was that, although DFG was originally intended to be a way for mages to deal with tankier targets, assassins were abusing it against squishies. Its tank-busting capabilities were reworked into Liandry's Torment, so the original was just an unhealthy mess.

On to Fiddlesticks; his design is pretty clunky and has a lot of inherent weaknesses present, yeah, but not only is he not doing particularly poorly (his winrate jumped four percentage points with the introduction of Runic Echoes), but his performance isn't indicative of how AP champions on the whole are performing. If Fiddlesticks happens to be weak, that's a problem with Fiddlesticks, not with all AP champions. Does Urgot's 44% winrate mean that Riot hates ADCs?

I thought that the triangle was a common concept; apparently not. Even if it's not something that Riot employees regularly discuss on the boards, it is something that they keep in mind when looking at game balance. Rock-paper-scissors structures are pretty common in most PvP games, and League's is a pretty intuitive one. For tanks, armor, magic resist, and armor scale multiplicatively; for ADCs, attack speed, crit, and AD do the same. When the two classes have a straight-up slap fight, whichever has better stats will usually win out, and since tanks' base damages are usually fairly high, they have a decent chance of winning: if Jinx 1v1s a Rammus, she'll probably lose. In most teamfight scenarios, however, the tanks are peeling for their ADCs, and so the carries have fairly free rein to wreak havoc on the enemy tanks. Roughly speaking, in teamfights at least, ADCs counter tanks.

In contrast to tanks and ADCs, most AP characters (and AD assassins, for that matter) scale linearly, with AP increasing their damage in proportion to their ratios. This means that they can't keep up with tanks' multiplicatively scaling defenses, but because a spell rotation comes out much faster, at longer range, with CC attached, etc., they can usually kill off ADCs. The three basic groups make a loose triangle of counters, with things like Graves (a bursty ADC) and Azir (a multiplicatively scaling mage) in the middle spicing things up.

If mages were equally good at killing both tanks and ADCs, they would be the kings and queens of the triangle, countering everything and countered by nothing. The mages that are good at killing tanks are usually odd hybrids (Azir, Swain, and Vladimir mix the mage role with marksman and tank, for example) or have been severely nerfed for their ability to do so (Cassiopeia).

Also, why do you think that squishy AD assassins kill tanks? I mean, sure, if Rengar is 54-0, he can kill anything, but if he's just doing average and tries to mess with a Nautilus or something, he's going to lose.

AP carries aren't second-class citizens; they have one role within the triangle, and you seem to be disappointed that they can't have them all.

Best AN US1 votes

AD Junglers have the choice between Devourer, Warrior, and depending on the champion, Cinderhulk.

AP Junglers have the choice of Runic Echoes, or depending on the champion Cinderhulk.

For a Jungler such as Fiddlesticks, as an example, the difference between Magus, Runeglaive, and Runic Echoes, is like the difference between a cat turd, an elephant turd, and a camel turd. Anyone who has mained Fiddle jungle knows this. It just delays your Zhonya's. By the time you make gold back from the initial investment, the game is coming to a close and you're shit out of luck if you don't have both Zhonya and Rabbadon's by this point. Game lengths have never been shorter than they are now. It's not as if Fiddle can just 'clear faster' because there is a speed limit to his drain.

"What I got out of the context posts was that, although DFG was originally intended to be a way for mages to deal with tankier targets, assassins were abusing it against squishies. "

This is exactly what I said. Except, you can't really 'abuse' or 'mis-use' something that the game provides you as part of the rules. The problem is that the nature of some champions specifically is too bursty and they should have dealt with those specific issues separately rather than removing DFG for all AP. Now there's not a single tank specific offensive item that any AP champ can use to itemize against tanks.

"Does Urgot's 44% winrate mean that Riot hates ADCs?"

A low win rate is often a product of the fact that a high level of skill is required for a particular champion. Everyone knows this.

Somehow, Gangplank, for example, is rated at a difficulty of 9/10 and yet he enjoys a solid 52% win rate, often to the point of being banned at all levels.

"I thought that the triangle was a common concept; apparently not."

I don't think anyone has ever said this before except for you. I'd like to think that what's happening in this game is more complex than a triangle and depending on the situation there are so many exceptions to the rule that characterizing it so rigidly as 'triangle' doesn't apply. I think that Jinxes kill Rammuses every day. It might not be what happens the majority of the time but this game is a highly flexible system. It's just that there are a bunch of mages that nobody even wants to play right now, and I don't blame them because the options and the math are not in their favor.

"In contrast to tanks and ADCs, most AP characters (and AD assassins, for that matter) scale linearly,..."

Yea when it comes to auto attacks. However, there are many AD champions that also have abilities that scale with an AD ratio just like AP champions in addition. The difference here is those AD champions get to have the AD BOTH on their auto attacks AND scaling up their abilities at the same time. They get to have their cake and eat it too whereas AP champions do not operate that way, unless they are Lulu.

"If mages were equally good at killing both tanks and ADCs, they would be the kings and queens of the triangle, countering everything and countered by nothing."

ADCs kill mages. Tanks kill mages. Fighters kill mages. The only class that doesn't have equal or better footing than a mage is a healer.

"Also, why do you think that squishy AD assassins kill tanks?"

AD anything has the option to itemize against tanks in numerous ways where as AP champions do not have this option.

AD champions have Blade of the Ruined King which does %HP damage. There is no AP equivalent to this item.

AD champions also have Dominik's. This is a deliberately tank specific item as it does up to 15% bonus damage to enemy champions with a greater maximum HP. The damage depends on precisely how tanky they are.

AP champions do not have this option. This was just one of my points mentioned from the original post.

"AP carries aren't second-class citizens; ...."

This is why people play Zed, Talon, Yasuo mid constantly even when there's no AP on their team to begin with.

Again. It seems like we agree.

MisterHealYoGirl1 votes

Honestly, it seems like we just disagree about what's happening in League right now. There are AP junglers who are viable with all of the enchants except warrior, just as there are AD junglers who are viable with all but Echoes. (Kayle likes devourer, for example, and Elise and Evelynn like Cinderhulk). And again, you're trying to make the point that AP champions are at a categorical disadvantage by pointing out one weak champion, who has recieved several changes recently to address his weakness.

DFG was never intended for use by assassins; it was to help mages deal with tanks. However, the way it did so led to it being abused by assassins. Liandry's Torment was added as an AP tank-busting item (which you keep refusing to acknowledge), and once DFG lost its niche as a tank-buster, all that was left was the toxic assassin abuse case.

Again, the triangle is a very loose way of looking at league, and there are many, many champions who don't fit neatly into one of the categories. (It's described indirectly here http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Champion/Champion_Attributes ) . Is it that I haven't explained it properly, or that you don't think this kind of structure exists in League?

I think that our experiences are just different. You may be seeing Caitlyns burst down Annies, but I don't; I see Annies shoving Tibbers up the enemy ADC's butt before they can get more than one auto off, or Lux comboing them down from one continent over, or Syndra showing them her balls. In my experience, mages win against ADCs, but lose against tanks, and the same is true of AD assassins. If that's not your experience, that's fine.

Lord Dominik's Regards is actually just about the same as Void Staff in terms of dealing with tanks. Say a Talon and an Ahri both deal 100 damage (physical and magical, respectively) to a Braum with 200 armor and MR and enough HP to fully proc LDR. If Talon has an LDR, Braum will end up taking 45 damage from him (100 times ..45 is 45 armor ignored, and (100/255)(1.15) works out to a damage multiplier of .45). If Ahri has a Void Staff, Braum will end up taking 43 (200 times .35 is 70 MR ignored, and (100/230) is a damage multiplier of .43). However, Void Staff also helps Ahri take down squishies, and is much more gold efficient in terms of its base stats.

Blade of the Ruined King is to ADCs as Liandry's Torment is to mages, except that you don't need to stack some other stat to use Liandry's. Plain and simple.

tl;dr I think we just have different experiences of League; I see mages as long-range, utility-packed ADC-murderers, while you see them as victims of a system biased against them. I think that mages tend to win against ADCs, while you see them as generally losing. Both of these perspectives might be true: it all depends on what your experience has been.

Moulin Rouge2 votes

Try Reddit, you'll get no sympathy here. :P

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Thanks for your comment. Your response seems very well formed and articulately phrased. I appreciate that you think I was looking for sympathy but I never asked for that.

Moulin Rouge1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Best AN US,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vfWAd86r,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-01-24T01:40:26.260+0000)

Thanks for your comment. Your response seems very well formed and articulately phrased. I appreciate that you think I was looking for sympathy but I never asked for that.

I realize you have the best intentions but seriously, advocating for mages here is like talking to the wall. Basically everyone will use their "zhonyas" card and dismiss any kind of argument you put up, regardless of the facts.

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The game itself is advocating for mages right now with their massive rework. The writing is already on the wall. Pretending that this is controversial is absurd.

You tell me. Do you play mages? Do you main any mages as your top selection more than 50% of the time in ranked matches? Probably not. There's only really two viable roles for an non tank AP champ right now. But really, if you play a non tank, non heal oriented, AP support people might still call you a troll unless it's Vel, or Brand, maybe Zyra.

You can look at the data yourself. The only pure mage in the top ten of 'highest win rate' champions is - Brand - oh WOW. Who called that one? I wonder why? It's not like I already explained this or anything.

The only pure mage in the top ten of 'most popular' champions is - oh wait, there are none.

You say that you don't like Zhonya's. Okay. Give AP the option to buy half what AD has that they don't. We'll call it even.

I'll get right down to %HP mage bursting down tanks with my Zhonya's. GG 2 EZ.

Moulin Rouge1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Best AN US,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vfWAd86r,comment-id=0000000000000000,timestamp=2016-01-24T02:36:07.735+0000)

The game itself is advocating for mages right now with their massive rework. The writing is already on the wall. Pretending that this is controversial is absurd.

You tell me. Do you play mages? Do you main any mages as your top selection more than 50% of the time in ranked matches? Probably not. There's only really two viable roles for an non tank AP champ right now. But really, if you play a non tank, non heal oriented, AP support people might still call you a troll unless it's Vel, or Brand, maybe Zyra.

You can look at the data yourself. The only pure mage in the top ten of 'highest win rate' champions is - Brand - oh WOW. Who called that one? I wonder why? It's not like I already explained this or anything.

The only pure mage in the top ten of 'most popular' champions is - oh wait, there are none.

You say that you don't like Zhonya's. Okay. Give AP the option to buy half what AD has that they don't. We'll call it even.

I'll get right down to %HP mage bursting down tanks with my Zhonya's. GG 2 EZ.

Actually, I do main mages.

Sheesh and stop getting angry with me. All I did was give you a heads up on how this thread was gonna go. I'm more than aware of the state of mages in the game.

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Cool beans fellow mage bro ski.

Lets rock their world and start a revolution.

AD stands for 'A' 'D'onald Trump.

AP Lives Matter.

OverpoweredSoap1 votes

#AllChampionLivesMatter

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All Champions aren't constantly in danger.

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Not All Champions are systematically oppressed.

Chaotic Sage1 votes
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TL;DR is an not an epidemic at all. I'm really happy that there are things like character limits that drive our attention spans into the ground.

Chaotic Sage1 votes
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Worth reading should be judged on the merits of actually reading it. It probably shouldn't be judged on the quality of its TL;DR synopsis of itself. This is not a novel. It's 1230 words. This is about the length of a blog post. You probably don't need a 'cliffs notes' for something of this size. Estimated reading time is 5 mins. It's at the 10th grade level. How easy does it have to be?

Chaotic Sage1 votes
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I was gonna read but I went to the bottom and didn't see a TL;DR at the bottom and was sad. I do agree and feel like I was being a jerk, for a reason.

Mecha MaIphite1 votes

Mages don't even need to win lane to do tons of damage.

[{quoted}](name=Best AN US,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=vfWAd86r,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-01-24T01:17:34.900+0000)

The game is overwhelmingly in favor of AD champions. This is why AD champions are mostly played. AP is simply added to compositions for token damage diversity.

For starters, attack damage applies to auto attacks and for many AD champions this also scales with the abilities that they have.

It is possible to get much more AP than AD due to rabadon's and the fact that AP items simply give more.

People say Zhonya is OP. That argument is extremely hypocritical and shortsighted. Give me the AP version of hex drinker / Maw.

Invulnerability just can't be compared to a medium sized shield that you can't manually activate.

Chiefly, and this is the main reason - AD champions have Blade of the Ruined King. This may not seem like a big deal, but it is. The reason is that it's a % Health Damage Dealing item. This makes it the only item in the game that can help realistically with tank busting.

BotrK is garbage right now. Hardly anyone builds it.

The reason that Deathfire Grasp was removed, was basically LeBlanc.

It was actually more mages with good DoTs.

AD champions don't need mana (or cooldowns for that matter) in order to auto attack. AP champions do. You may not have noticed this but there is a severe mana shortage in this game left in the wake of the fact that there are no longer mana pots.

While AD champs have better AAs, there are still a lot of ADs who rely more on abilities. For example, a Talon who doesn't manage mana will eventually be reduced to trying to CS while taking AAs from his laner. They won't deal much, but they'll start adding up, and Talon can't fight back without mana.

Frankly, it's more of a problem with AP items being too expensive than anything else.

Best AN US1 votes

"Mages don't even need to win lane to do tons of damage."

I disagree with this premise. You don't have to win lane to get gold. Getting gold for items is a prerequisite to actual damage for most mages. What champions are you talking about specifically? How is this different from an AD champion not winning lane but somehow scrapping gold together and doing damage?

"It is possible to get much more AP than AD due to rabadon's and the fact that AP items simply give more."

This is true. This doesn't mean that AP champs inherently do more damage. There are AP ratios as there are AD ratios. Making the number 'bigger' doesn't mean much when there are other checks and balances at play. Why can't I apply my 'huge' AP number to all my auto attacks then?

"Invulnerability just can't be compared to a medium sized shield that you can't manually activate."

It's limited invulnerability and it's important because AP champions require their abilities to be off CD in order to do anything. Also, again, give AP champs near the items that AD champs have access to and we can call it even.

"BotrK is garbage right now. Hardly anyone builds it."

It's a core item for many champions. That being said, its popularity level doesn't make the item not exist as an option. People still use it for tank busting because it's effective at that. For champions who don't normally build it, it's a situational purchase that is available like any other situational item. AP champions are not afforded the opportunity to make this kind of adjustment.

"It was actually more mages with good DoTs."

Damage over time varies drastically on a champion per champion basis. To claim that there are no burst damage AD champions is erroneous.

"While AD champs have better AAs, there are still a lot of ADs who rely more on abilities."

You are right. Why is it then that all they have to do is buy Attack Damage and this helps them BOTH with their AA's AND their Abilities? Shouldn't damage stemming from abilities be classified as 'Ability Power' and not 'Attack Damage'? With Attack Damage you get both.

"Frankly, it's more of a problem with AP items being too expensive than anything else."

It seems clear from this statement that you agree with my fundamental thesis which is - the game, as it currently stands, favors AD champions.

Thank You.

cuddlykitten41 votes

WTF is an AP champ? Are those the things that Galio is always whining about not getting to fight? Cause if so, where do I go to get one? I was thinking about getting him one for his birthday.

Best AN US1 votes

Yea. I don't know what a Trundle is either.

Itadaki Seieki1 votes

I think you forgot about one core item..

item 3151 You build then, then probably Rylai's if you have no source of a snare, and boom.

Every spell does HEALTH BASED DAMAGE.

Sightless661 votes

Not to mention that the whole concept of abilities scaling off of Attack Damage to begin with defies logic - this is what Ability Power should be. That's why it's called Ability Power.

No, it just defies the name. In terms of game design, it's actually the much better option. The reason the name is ability power is because we actually tried having only AP-scaling abilities back when the game first released. AD was only for autoattacks and ability power was for almost all abilities (with one or two exceptions like Ashe W). It didn't work.

ive me the choices with how I can build on top of Void Staff. This is only fair due to the choices that are available with Last Whisper now.

Seriously dude? Seriously? This is not a valid complaint. Void stuff is so much better than Last Whisper. It's always a good item because it works off of total magic penetration like Last Whisper used to. Last Whisper and its upgrades only work off of bonus armor penetration, meaning that in anything except an unrealistic completely ideal scenario they are offering less damage enhancement than Void Staff. Last Whisper sucks so much that people were avoiding buying it even against 3 tank teams and it had to be buffed recently.

AD champions have Blade of the Ruined King.

What, the item that almost never gets purchased even for tank-busting purchases? Have you not noticed the near-complete absence of that item from high-level play? Ad carries aren't busting tanks on the virtue of having a tankbusting item. They're doing it off of sustained dps, which comes at the cost of the burst, range and CC that mages bring to the table. Mages aren't meant to be good at dealing with tanks, just like AD assassins suck against tanks (in fact, they suck even more against tanks than mages do, and you can see tank metas take assassins out of the game entirely). Anything cooldown based won't do well against something that survives burst combos.

This is the reason that Brand is as popular as he is right now,

Again, no. Brand had a huge burst in his winrate during the first preaseason patch even before people realized that tanks were strong and started playing them more. He was doing exceptionally well before people realized tanks were as good as they are. He had a jump in winrate primarily because of mastery and item changes. Ascribing it primarily to tanks doesn't fit the evidence.

The reason that Deathfire Grasp was removed, was basically LeBlanc.

Um... well, no. If you read the 5.2 patch notes, you actually don't see Leblanc mentioned at all in their DFG removal justification. You mainly see Ahri, and you also see Veigar, Mordekaiser, and Katarina. They promised rebalancing for all those champions. They didn't say anything about LeBlanc. They didn't do anything to LeBlanc. She just wasn't the target of the change.

It was considered a problem for mages in general, and a major problem for any kind of burst mage design. They stated multiple times that the item skewed balance because it any mage access to another nuke in a burst combo, which meant they had to have their burst potential warped around that item. It wasn't a healthy option.

In the end, we don't have Deathfire Grasp, you have Blade of the Ruined King.

What the hell is this comparison? DFG wasn't a tankbusting item. It was primarily used as a burst combo enhancer to take down squishies. It didn't make mages into tankbusters. It made them into better assassins.

There's still no adequate AP jungle item.

Given the strength of several Runic Echoes junglers, I'd debate this point. You talk about Fiddlesticks a lot, and he is pretty mediocre, but really the only things you bring up could all be written off as Fiddlesticks problems and not anything to do with AP junglers in general. Fiddlesticks is arguably mediocre, but Elise, Diana, Nidalee and AP Ekko definitely aren't. Seems like his problem, not the item's problem.

You may not have noticed this but there is a severe mana shortage in this game left in the wake of the fact that there are no longer mana pots.

This is the only point I kind of agree with you on, but even this is questionable. The norm for most AP champions was to not buy even a single mana pot, and yet they got small mana pool or mana regen buffs as a class in the preseason. I'm not convinced this has changed.

I'll finish this by giving my option about mages. Immobile mages have dominated this preseason. Champions like Anivia, Brand, Malz, etc have all been very, very strong, and got huge boosts from the itemization nerfs other classes suffered. Tanks are arguably the only class that has excelled in the preaseason more than immobile mages. It's only after multiple nerfs to both classes that we're starting to see assassins taking over again, and even then they haven't overtaken the sheer power mages bring.

Basically, I think you're complaining about a lot of things that either A. aren't real issues or B. aren't fairly addressed in the context of the game. I also think some of your assertions are just plain wrong.

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