If melee top laners are in such a bad spot

Pill Slinger·Oct 16, 2016·6 votes·587 views

Then why do they have 8 of the top 12 win rates for top lane?

27 Comments

EndlessSorcererOct 16, 20167 votes

Lacking a front-line is rather detrimental for a team since it can result in a lack of durability and/or initiation.

If they choose a ranged top laner (which is generally a squishy champion), then their team composition can be compromised unless the jungler picks a tank to compensate.

Also, melee top laners greatly outnumber ranged top laners.

Pill SlingerOct 16, 20161 votes

Exactly. I think people forget there are strengths and weaknesses of champs. Yes, if you're melee against a ranged, you're probably gonna lose lane. But that doesn't mean the ranged champs are OP and melees suck right now. Because they typically are better in other areas.

RalanrOct 16, 20164 votes

Because there are more melee top laners than ranged top laners.

Pill SlingerOct 16, 20162 votes

I would just expect a champ like Teemo or Jayce to be much higher if ranged was so dominating. Or for more ADCs to be higher up on the win rate list...which aside from Quinn, they aren't.

Ranged champs not in the top 5: Jayce, Kennen, Karthus, heim, Graves, Liss, Gnar, Vlad, Swain, Teemo.

I don't think it's a lack of champs problem.

RalanrOct 16, 20162 votes

A lot of the complaints towards ranged top laners are about how unfun it is to fight them and how unfair it is that they can function in more lanes than melee top laners.

Pill SlingerOct 16, 20162 votes

They are better in lane. Yes. They are typically not past lane, which is why they aren't winning as much. I'd much rather have a Mao that lost lane than a Teemo that won it.

RalanrOct 16, 20161 votes

Yeah, but a lot of the board forgets that there's more to the game than the laning phase.

Pill SlingerOct 16, 20161 votes

This is pretty much the population I was making fun of with this post lol.

ValyrianBladeOct 16, 20162 votes

Basically the other comment. Melee tops are likely tankier, which a team needs as a front line. Even with a tank jungle and support, the team comp is better with a melee top. This is coming from a top-main who mains Quinn and J4. I'll almost always take J4 when I'm picking blind (unless I see a tank jungle and support, like Amumu Alistar). It's just not worth it to pick Quinn blind and let the opponent pick a tank that can handle her in lane then outscale her in the game (e.g. Irelia, Maokai, etc...). I'll take Quinn when I see a Darius/Riven/Fiora/etc... because I know I can decimate them in lane, but if it's blind I'll give my team a bigger front line and some more utility.

That said, while the complaint has been that Ranged tops are too much stronger than melee tops and that is wrong as I've described above, it doesn't change that playing the melee vs ranged lane really sucks for the person controlling the melee champion. The lane is really annoying to play in. If you're picking Riven/Darius blind then maybe you deserve it... but for the most part it just sucks to not get much farm and be tied down under tower for the entirety of laning phase to avoid dying until you get a jungle gank. It's not a fun game to play. So while ranged tops may be "balanced" that doesn't mean they aren't unfun.

However I also consider Darius/Riven&co to be unfun to play against, which is why I'll destroy every one of them with Quinn if they're picked blind.

Pill SlingerOct 16, 20162 votes

I completely agree with what you've said. My post was pretty much just to make fun of people saying melee champs are in such a bad spot.

They are unfun to play against...but they trade that strong laning phase for a sub-par place in team comps. J4 will always outperform Teemo (given equal skill of course) after laning phase.

The Sword SaintOct 16, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Basically the other comment. Melee tops are likely tankier, which a team needs as a front line. Even with a tank jungle and support, the team comp is better with a melee top. This is coming from a top-main who mains Quinn and J4. I'll almost always take J4 when I'm picking blind (unless I see a tank jungle and support, like Amumu Alistar). It's just not worth it to pick Quinn blind and let the opponent pick a tank that can handle her in lane then outscale her in the game (e.g. Irelia, Maokai, etc...). I'll take Quinn when I see a Darius/Riven/Fiora/etc... because I know I can decimate them in lane, but if it's blind I'll give my team a bigger front line and some more utility.

That said, while the complaint has been that Ranged tops are too much stronger than melee tops and that is wrong as I've described above, it doesn't change that playing the melee vs ranged lane really sucks for the person controlling the melee champion. The lane is really annoying to play in. If you're picking Riven/Darius blind then maybe you deserve it... but for the most part it just sucks to not get much farm and be tied down under tower for the entirety of laning phase to avoid dying until you get a jungle gank. It's not a fun game to play. So while ranged tops may be "balanced" that doesn't mean they aren't unfun.

However I also consider Darius/Riven&co to be unfun to play against, which is why I'll destroy every one of them with Quinn if they're picked blind.

Downvoted for being another bias anti riven lame ass. Btw if you pick a quin into riven shes going to erase you from the map at level 6 and beyond so you might want to go even cheesier and pick kennen or something if you're that determined to 'punish' people for daring to a play a champ in toplane who actually belongs there.

ValyrianBladeOct 17, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Sword Dancer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=v1TNulOq,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2016-10-16T23:57:58.826+0000)

Downvoted for being another bias anti riven lame ass. Btw if you pick a quin into riven shes going to erase you from the map at level 6 and beyond so you might want to go even cheesier and pick kennen or something if you're that determined to 'punish' people for daring to a play a champ in toplane who actually belongs there.

Riven "belongs" there, but Riven is a selfish top lane that doesn't contribute anything to her team really. She's no different from the ranged top laners. I didn't even say punish - I just said I consider them unfun to play against. Oh wow, one of the strongest duelists in the game with multiple gap closers and CC. She makes top lane really tough for as many champions as the ranged top laners do. She's a win lane lose game champion. So if their style is to play like that, they should experience the opposite side of the coin - hence picking Quinn in to it.

And a Riven is NOT going to erase a Quinn from the map at 6, lmao. Riven is lucky to make it to 6 without being at least 2 kills down and a load of CS. By the time Riven hits 6, I'm typically enough ahead on Quinn to stand on top of her and just 1v1 win the duel without even using e to create a gap (exaggerating) (although in all seriousness, how in the world does 6 help Riven? So she can get a single ranged attack, Quinn is still going to kite her for days and Riven can't do any damage to her).

My last Quinn vs Riven game btw, I was level 7 to her level 5. She had 12 cs. I'll reiterate: I was level 7 and she had 12 cs in total (and no, she did not dc). And that was despite her jungle and mid both camping top (to the point that I was only 3/2/0 with Riven 0/2/0). Oh, and I got the turret at 7:55 (and got the mid turret at 12:50). One game doesn't make a story, but the point is that Riven can't do anything to Quinn unless she just sits in xp range and waits for a gank. I've lost games in the Quinn vs Riven matchup, but basically only when the enemy Riven is careful enough in lane to survive until jungler ganks top when I go for the first kill. Which is less than 5% of the time I'd guess.

The Sword SaintOct 17, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Riven "belongs" there, but Riven is a selfish top lane that doesn't contribute anything to her team really. She's no different from the ranged top laners. I didn't even say punish - I just said I consider them unfun to play against. Oh wow, one of the strongest duelists in the game with multiple gap closers and CC. She makes top lane really tough for as many champions as the ranged top laners do. She's a win lane lose game champion. So if their style is to play like that, they should experience the opposite side of the coin - hence picking Quinn in to it.

And a Riven is NOT going to erase a Quinn from the map at 6, lmao. Riven is lucky to make it to 6 without being at least 2 kills down and a load of CS. By the time Riven hits 6, I'm typically enough ahead on Quinn to stand on top of her and just 1v1 win the duel without even using e to create a gap (exaggerating) (although in all seriousness, how in the world does 6 help Riven? So she can get a single ranged attack, Quinn is still going to kite her for days and Riven can't do any damage to her).

My last Quinn vs Riven game btw, I was level 7 to her level 5. She had 12 cs. I'll reiterate: I was level 7 and she had 12 cs in total (and no, she did not dc). And that was despite her jungle and mid both camping top (to the point that I was only 3/2/0 with Riven 0/2/0). Oh, and I got the turret at 7:55 (and got the mid turret at 12:50). One game doesn't make a story, but the point is that Riven can't do anything to Quinn unless she just sits in xp range and waits for a gank. I've lost games in the Quinn vs Riven matchup, but basically only when the enemy Riven is careful enough in lane to survive until jungler ganks top when I go for the first kill. Which is less than 5% of the time I'd guess.

You clearly haven't played vs an experienced enough riven as quin if you don't understand how level 6 completely changes the game as long as riven isn't super far behind - which she won't be by level 6 if they know how to play the lane and there isn't jungler interference.

ValyrianBladeOct 17, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Sword Dancer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=v1TNulOq,comment-id=0002000100000000,timestamp=2016-10-17T01:39:31.343+0000)

You clearly haven't played vs an experienced enough riven as quin if you don't understand how level 6 completely changes the game as long as riven isn't super far behind - which she won't be by level 6 if they know how to play the lane and there isn't jungler interference.

Or you haven't played against a good enough Quinn player to ensure the Riven is behind. Without Riven getting jungle support, she either dies in lane or doesn't get farm. Either way, she won't have the gold at 6 to beat the Quinn 1v1. I mean sure, if the Quinn lets her stand on her and stun her and unload her whole kit then fine. I maintain that a single windslash will not 100-0 Quinn though, and Riven has no business getting within attack range of Quinn otherwise. A simple e during the third proc of Riven's Q and she has nothing left to give.

The Sword SaintOct 18, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Or you haven't played against a good enough Quinn player to ensure the Riven is behind. Without Riven getting jungle support, she either dies in lane or doesn't get farm. Either way, she won't have the gold at 6 to beat the Quinn 1v1. I mean sure, if the Quinn lets her stand on her and stun her and unload her whole kit then fine. I maintain that a single windslash will not 100-0 Quinn though, and Riven has no business getting within attack range of Quinn otherwise. A simple e during the third proc of Riven's Q and she has nothing left to give.

Lack of experience showing. Quin's range advantage is nowhere large large enough to prevent riven from getting onto her and getting a trade off. This is usually a losing trade because riven will need to retreat back from the trade and will take more damage while she leaves than she can deal when she has to waste gapclosers to get into quin in the first place, but this isn't the case for all ins. If Riven is only going in with no intention of going out then she intends to kill you straight up - she will ult and flash stun you to start her combo. Quin can counter flash or e away or both, but with stormraiders riven can still chase her down easily if quin tries to stick in range to fight back instead of running for her life. It's a fight quin cannot win since riven has a combat ultimate and quin does not. If quin wastes her escape at any time post riven 6 and riven has flash, she's just dead since she won't put up enough distance after rivens flash stun to get away alive. Because of this, quin cannot use her dash to harass at all post 6 because she risks being all inned and killed without being able to fight back.

That's just how it plays out. You not understanding this matchup or refusing to accept it changes nothing. If the riven knows the match then quin just has to push the wave and roam post 6, otherwise she's disrespecting and can easily die and get snowballed on hard.

SalronOct 16, 20162 votes

Melee top laners, being typically far tankier also means they typically require far less skill to play compared to their ranged counterparts

Critmaster GarenOct 16, 20162 votes

what are their play rates?

kayle had a consistent 55% to 58% winrate for years.

winrate in a vacuum doesnt mean anything.

Pill SlingerOct 16, 20162 votes

Well, looking at average games played, the ranged champs at the top typically have more games played than the melee champs. Meaning the people playing melee champs have less experience on them but still manage to have higher win rates. Galio is top win rate...with the average Galio player only having an average of 18 games played with him.

Critmaster GarenOct 16, 20163 votes

{quoted}

Well, looking at average games played, the ranged champs at the top typically have more games played than the melee champs. Meaning the people playing melee champs have less experience on them but still manage to have higher win rates. Galio is top win rate...with the average Galio player only having an average of 18 games played with him.

lmao, thats really not what it means.

when a champion has a low playrate, its usually just mains with a lot of experience with the champion who are sticking with them. current playrate does not equal player experience with the champion.

theyre two completely separate concepts.

but keep trying to rationalize why its ok for ranged champions to occupy bot lane in 100% of the games, but also ok for them to bully around melee champs on top lane.

Pill SlingerOct 16, 20163 votes

I never said low playrate equaled played experience. I am literally looking at the 'average games played' statistic. But hey, at least you tried.

LuggOct 16, 20161 votes

The melee tops that are leading in win percentage all have superior poking abilities and good gap closers. I don't think the majority of melee tops are bad off at all.

The DeckownerOct 17, 20161 votes

it is probably because those ranged top players are just fotm abusers who have no idea how to play those op ranged champions.

Pill SlingerOct 17, 20161 votes

But then why do the ranged champs typically have more average games played?

The DeckownerOct 17, 20161 votes

Because in higher elo people tend to play for the team. stop quoting champion.gg, it is kinda meaningless atm.

Pill SlingerOct 17, 20161 votes

You say that people that play ranged are typically fotm abusers who have no idea how to play the champs....yet people literally have more average games played with them than top melee champs. Do you realize how little sense that makes?

The DeckownerOct 17, 20161 votes

I am this hardcore Jayce player who has 2k Jayce games played. Add 4 more fotm Jayce abusers who has 5 games played. The average of the 5 people is still 404 games played.