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Armor Penetration, and Tanks.

Sonofstone··1 votes·906 views

Alright so hear me out, I just played a Malphite game that lasted close to an hour. The enemy team was entirely AD besides the support Janna. So I do fairly well in lane and manage to farm up a very early zzrot to help with push and gold. The enemy jungler is a Rengar, and adc is MF. So having my zzrot and later a guardian angel I had enough MR to soften the enemies low magic damage however, with near 50 armor in runes/masts and the maxed W ability (Increases armor by 30%) I had a whopping 800 armor or damn close to it. So Here I am dedicating the entirety of my gold intake to armor so I can frontline for my team not to mention its what malphite does.. when along came a rengar. Now rengar is equipped with black cleaver and lord dominiks, 2 fairly low cost items if you think of the grand scale of other item costs.. (BT,IE,RDC) So me being completely stacked with armor - I have decent damage on E and the gauntlet proc ofcourse, figured what the hell he is being quite froggy lets 1v1 him and let him kill himself on my thorns and 780 armor, Nope. Alone with his vampiric scepter, THATS RIGHT JUST THE SCEPTER, and the 2 combined cost items BC/LDR (about 6k gold maybe) I was shredded for Two thousand Nine hundred and sixty eight health in just over 2 seconds. So let me get to the root of the post and topic, My incredible lead on this full AD jungler (Excluding the 4% total dmg done battle roar, omg 2 stronk) meant absolutely nothing because I soon had (without taking any flat armor pen into consideration or mastery) only 5% of my armor value against him. Therefore the stacked armor items which give absolutely no health were completely and utterly useless, his scepter sustained my thorns (which now reflect damage back based on your armor, which i'm not sure is current or total. (eitherway)) How is being able to 2 item buy 95% armor pen fair, how is taking someones niche and destroying it with gold purchases even possible. I think riot really needs to take into consideration that there should be a cap to armor pen. and if you still arent hitting those armor stacked champs hard enough at your 45-50% armor pen cap hard enough, grab something that does magic damage, bring strategic buying back into the game. It just really is not fun when you devote your game to tanking up and are destroyed by someone with half your gold income, half your health in 2 seconds. Like really? Please tell me someone out there agrees with me and sees how clearly flawed the item system is. Implement some new feature possibly like a True Armor (?) or even something that lowers physical damage done by nearby enemies. (Frozen heart is usually a flop considering champions that can instantly activate autos through abilities; hence rengar Q)

25 Comments

EndlessSorcerer7 votes

The enemy team was entirely AD besides the support Janna.

The enemy team composition was as follows: TahmKench Rengar Karma MissFortune Janna

That is not a full AD team composition in the slightest.

Sonofstone1 votes

{quoted}

The enemy team composition was as follows: TahmKench Rengar Karma MissFortune Janna

That is not a full AD team composition in the slightest.

Okay well I didnt expect people to begin looking up the match and creepin on my history, but you were not there, the magic damage was not an issue since magic abilities are usually dodgeable, you cannot dodge an auto attack my friend, also it is not possible to hit 100% magic penetration the way you can with armor pen. And certainly you must've thought of instances where it was solely a 1v1 skirmish between the rengar and I. The point still stands.

EndlessSorcerer5 votes

Okay well I didnt expect people to begin looking up the match and creepin on my history,

Considering how often people exaggerate or outright lie about the circumstances to try and support their arguments, basic fact-checking is just common sense.

It worked out rather well in this case.

Sonofstone1 votes

{quoted}

Considering how often people exaggerate or outright lie about the circumstances to try and support their arguments, basic fact-checking is just common sense.

It worked out rather well in this case.

Support my argument you say, my argument is that armor pen being able to hit 95% is busted, and the argument still stands. You are nit picking rather than addressing the actual topic of this thread. Your presence is unwelcome here. Move along please.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo3 votes

item 3036 only effects bonus armor not base armor so if you have 200 bonus armor it reduces it by 45% so by 90 being you still have 110 bonus armor not including the 92 you get from scaling (92 at lvl 18) so 110 bonus armor plus 92 =202 armor

oSEXYPLATYPUSo4 votes

did you have any fukin HP with your 800 armor and the more armor you build the more % based arm pen is effective for...

Sonofstone1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uaR94ZMz,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2016-10-29T22:03:46.017+0000)

did you have any fukin HP with your 800 armor and the more armor you build the more % based arm pen is effective for...

Exactly, so what is the point of building armor if it is all just penetrated, I did have 3.5k HP but after the full penetration it wouldve been wiser to stack Warmogs for the HP apparently, or screw it just stack AP I guess.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo3 votes

but thats just it , its a balance you cant be all armor and no hp , no damage and not be a threat cuz they will ignore you kill everyone else then focus you after words.. as malphite the best thing you have is your ult for team fights or to blow someone up... if you go balls deep and have no damage, no hp no survive- ability then you die

Sonofstone1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uaR94ZMz,comment-id=000200000000,timestamp=2016-10-29T22:13:51.006+0000)

but thats just it , its a balance you cant be all armor and no hp , no damage and not be a threat cuz they will ignore you kill everyone else then focus you after words.. as malphite the best thing you have is your ult for team fights or to blow someone up... if you go balls deep and have no damage, no hp no survive- ability then you die

Malphites essentials are Sunfire and Frozenheart/Gauntlet (perhaps both depending on the player) He is not meant to stack full hp, A normal malphite will only have around 4k hp at the late game. Because your mana and CDR is very important and there are not many items that give those stats and health. Again the item system is flawed and in favor of damage champions, Tanking items need to be carefully looked over and reworked, similliar to the recent hextech items (for ap) and soon beore the last whisper remakes (LDR/MortalREminder)

oSEXYPLATYPUSo2 votes

at best you had a bonus of 1000 hp from item 3742 item 3068 and no other real damage let alone debuffs

you could of gone item 3110 item 3143 which has debuffs to attack speed...

randiums has crit reduction, armor , hp, aoe slow, and an attack speed debuff

here are some of my builds as malph

item 3069 item 3025 item 3068 item 3001 item 3047 went 8-1-12

item 3069 item 2045 item 3068 item 3110 item 3742 item 1001 went 2-6-26

item 3025 item 3068 item 3102 item 3742 item 3151 item 3111 11-4-15

item 3143 item 3075 item 3065 item 3025 item 3047 item 3151 6-8-16

all wins

either as top or support

Sonofstone1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uaR94ZMz,comment-id=000200000001,timestamp=2016-10-29T22:20:32.436+0000)

at best you had a bonus of 1000 hp from item 3742 item 3068 and no other real damage let alone debuffs

you could of gone item 3110 item 3143 which has debuffs to attack speed...

randiums has crit reduction, armor , hp, aoe slow, and an attack speed debuff

here are some of my builds as malph

item 3069 item 3025 item 3068 item 3001 item 3047 went 8-1-12

item 3069 item 2045 item 3068 item 3110 item 3742 item 1001 went 2-6-26

item 3025 item 3068 item 3102 item 3742 item 3151 item 3111 11-4-15

item 3143 item 3075 item 3065 item 3025 item 3047 item 3151 6-8-16

all wins

either as top or support

It doesnt matter, tank role is dead. Build damage and move on, got it.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

wrong you didnt build correctly or the correct items at the correct time

Big Lincoln2 votes

all penetration makes true balance impossible and none of it should exist

Sonofstone1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uaR94ZMz,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2016-10-29T21:59:02.991+0000)

all penetration makes true balance impossible and none of it should exist

Thank You I agree whole heartedly.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

but as Malphite a champ that does damage based on AP scaling ... having some ap and some pen helps items like item 3068 item 3075

if you have item 3001 with item 3075 the aura of item 3001 reduces their MR therefore the damage reflected by item 3075 which is magic damage is stronger... and same as item 3068 is aoe magic damage

then you add in an item like item 3151 that gives ap and hp... and has magic pen and does dot hp% to targets that are slowed or cc in any way Malphite Q and ULT makes everything he does better

so item 3001 item 3025 item 3068 item 3075 item 3151 item 3047

or forget the item 3075 unless vs 2 or more auto attacked based champs get item 3143

so build would be item 3001 item 3025 item 3068 item 3143 item 3151 item 1001 of whatever you need

hell i have even gone item 3027 as Malphite giving mana , hp, ap , and the passive of item 3010 for stupid sustain

RogueWill2 votes

As a fellow tank I hear you. Gone are the days where tanks where bad early game, superb mid game and good late game. Now they are only worth during the mid game and trash pretty much every other time.

Sonofstone1 votes

{quoted}

As a fellow tank I hear you. Gone are the days where tanks where bad early game, superb mid game and good late game. Now they are only worth during the mid game and trash pretty much every other time.

Yes exactly, My early and mid game were fairly decent but once the total gold reached I'd say 7-8k per player and at that point everyone was very aware of my armor stacking, I did not exist. Penetration made me useless, I went from monolith to pebble very quickly.

PermabannedGaren2 votes

{quoted}

Alright so hear me out, I just played a Malphite game that lasted close to an hour. The enemy team was entirely AD besides the support Janna. So I do fairly well in lane and manage to farm up a very early zzrot to help with push and gold. The enemy jungler is a Rengar, and adc is MF. So having my zzrot and later a guardian angel I had enough MR to soften the enemies low magic damage however, with near 50 armor in runes/masts and the maxed W ability (Increases armor by 30%) I had a whopping 800 armor or damn close to it. So Here I am dedicating the entirety of my gold intake to armor so I can frontline for my team not to mention its what malphite does.. when along came a rengar. Now rengar is equipped with black cleaver and lord dominiks, 2 fairly low cost items if you think of the grand scale of other item costs.. (BT,IE,RDC) So me being completely stacked with armor - I have decent damage on E and the gauntlet proc ofcourse, figured what the hell he is being quite froggy lets 1v1 him and let him kill himself on my thorns and 780 armor, Nope. Alone with his vampiric scepter, THATS RIGHT JUST THE SCEPTER, and the 2 combined cost items BC/LDR (about 6k gold maybe) I was shredded for Two thousand Nine hundred and sixty eight health in just over 2 seconds. So let me get to the root of the post and topic, My incredible lead on this full AD jungler (Excluding the 4% total dmg done battle roar, omg 2 stronk) meant absolutely nothing because I soon had (without taking any flat armor pen into consideration or mastery) only 5% of my armor value against him. Therefore the stacked armor items which give absolutely no health were completely and utterly useless, his scepter sustained my thorns (which now reflect damage back based on your armor, which i'm not sure is current or total. (eitherway)) How is being able to 2 item buy 95% armor pen fair, how is taking someones niche and destroying it with gold purchases even possible. I think riot really needs to take into consideration that there should be a cap to armor pen. and if you still arent hitting those armor stacked champs hard enough at your 45-50% armor pen cap hard enough, grab something that does magic damage, bring strategic buying back into the game. It just really is not fun when you devote your game to tanking up and are destroyed by someone with half your gold income, half your health in 2 seconds. Like really? Please tell me someone out there agrees with me and sees how clearly flawed the item system is. Implement some new feature possibly like a True Armor (?) or even something that lowers physical damage done by nearby enemies. (Frozen heart is usually a flop considering champions that can instantly activate autos through abilities; hence rengar Q)

http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/2332333395/44989274?tab=overview

Is doing fairly well early feeding your ass off while Rengar racks up kill after kill throughout the game?

Black Cleaver and Lord Dominiks? By the time he had both of those items he also had warrior, a duskblade, and a ravenous hydra (aka not just a vamp scepter). Which is to say, he was literally full build, including his Ionian's, which he later sold for youmuu's.

So like, why are you lying? Do you think people can't look this shit up?

Stop pushing your pathetic agenda on the boards with your disgusting lies.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

dont forget rengar dont gank til lvl 6 just like a malphite... so when he said to me he was jungle and it put him at disadvantage to be effective

PermabannedGaren1 votes

[{quoted}](name=MrFawknSunshine ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uaR94ZMz,comment-id=00070000,timestamp=2016-10-30T00:01:44.160+0000)

dont forget rengar dont gank til lvl 6 just like a malphite... so when he said to me he was jungle and it put him at disadvantage to be effective

Notice how the cowardly thread maker didn't respond to my post calling out his lies.

That proves it.

He should be ashamed of himself.

oSEXYPLATYPUSo1 votes

but its ok im a troll right ?

Irelia Bot1 votes

TL;DR: They need to make thornmail actually worth buying.

Erockandroll1 votes

  1. paragraphs.

  2. Anyone who has scaling armor in their kit, is going to have a weakness to Armor pen. (that should be natural)

  3. The fact that Malphite does scale with armor is no excuse to neglect HP. You were still shy of 3K? Come back when you have at least 3.5, preferably 4k HP. And the fact that you have prioritized Armor so heavily means that those items affect you that much greater. 800 Armor, 30% shredded by a BC, would be 240. that is 240% effective Health lost from the Armor shred. which scales that high because you have that high armor. At that point, I would have traded 100 Armor for 500 HP. (perhaps you should trade your thorns for a Randuin's omen.)

  4. If Rengar is building BC and vamp scepter. He's likely going for a fighter build. (He has sustain on his enhanced W) He can actually fair well in a fight with a bit of CDR. (Which BC solves) And fighters make fair duelists. (Especially against True Tanks) So if your going to pick a fight with a duelist, your going to lose.

  5. it was late game, Everything is explosive in the late game. (especially when your sub 3k HP) Even if your the tank, you got to hit them before they hit you. And even if you are the Tank, you shouldn't just be soaking damage, you should be preventing them from attacking though disruption and CC.

Sonofstone1 votes

{quoted}

  1. paragraphs.

  2. Anyone who has scaling armor in their kit, is going to have a weakness to Armor pen. (that should be natural)

  3. The fact that Malphite does scale with armor is no excuse to neglect HP. You were still shy of 3K? Come back when you have at least 3.5, preferably 4k HP. And the fact that you have prioritized Armor so heavily means that those items affect you that much greater. 800 Armor, 30% shredded by a BC, would be 240. that is 240% effective Health lost from the Armor shred. which scales that high because you have that high armor. At that point, I would have traded 100 Armor for 500 HP. (perhaps you should trade your thorns for a Randuin's omen.)

  4. If Rengar is building BC and vamp scepter. He's likely going for a fighter build. (He has sustain on his enhanced W) He can actually fair well in a fight with a bit of CDR. (Which BC solves) And fighters make fair duelists. (Especially against True Tanks) So if your going to pick a fight with a duelist, your going to lose.

  5. it was late game, Everything is explosive in the late game. (especially when your sub 3k HP) Even if your the tank, you got to hit them before they hit you. And even if you are the Tank, you shouldn't just be soaking damage, you should be preventing them from attacking though disruption and CC.

Malphites passive not to mention runes/masts and elixer I was sitting at 3.4k with a 340 hp shield on passive, say again though?

Primaquarius1 votes

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