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Is he talking about lee sin?

Urieldhynne··86 votes·5,147 views
Red Post Collection: Extra Bonus RP coming mid January, Aatrox and Shen discussion, and more

In response to the suggestion of making Shen a sort of tank / assassin, Meddler commented:

"While I can see the appeal as the Shen player I don't feel tank/assassin's an appropriate combination for the game. Tanks go straight into a fight, have natural survivability, sustained damage patterns, team utility/CC and are usually not attractive targets to try and take down if you've got any better options. Assassins by contrast tend to flank, have extremely high target selection and burst, low team utility, lack constant survivability (instead relying on other tools like mobility, untargetability, stealth etc) and are usually great targets to kill if you can focus them. Combining those two categories risks creating very tanky, mobile champions with high CC/utility that set up their own kills, are extremely hard to take down and will happily chew through an entire team.

Troll Rito at his finest.

http://www.surrenderat20.net/2014/12/red-post-collection-extra-bonus-rp.html

98 Comments

Kowe The Ewok28 votes

Well, so why did they decidethat Eve should be a tank/assassin? Or Elise? They forced them into these roles and then nerfed the hell out of them.

Budupops20 votes

rito loves LeeSin and hates Zac

Retillin16 votes

Shhhhh! Don't bring Lee up. He's the what Riot wants. Flashy, big play LCS. He just doesn't have a weakness. I mean do you want your post deleted?

MrBuffington15 votes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXxcpaCr1hw

kijik5 votes

Best part, the video is NOT a joke. =|

The Red Warden10 votes

If they nerfed Lee Sin though his mains would conjur up an even larger shit-storm then they did before. They are okay with any champion being changed except if its Lee sin cause the law of lee sin.

Grimspeake8 votes

this is my honest opinion... i find lee sin to not be so overpowering in s5 (reminder i am low elo) and shens good for nothing but being a tank, shen needs a base damage buff and forums hate lee just cuz everyone plays him... its not really that hes wicked op, hes just super popular and people are being outplayed on their own accord.

i also wouldnt mind a little shaco buff either :)

Horrow1 votes

Why comment on balance if you're going to hide behind the "Remember, I'm low ELO" ?

Grimspeake11 votes

{quoted}

Why comment on balance if you're going to hide behind the "Remember, I'm low ELO" ?

because i dont feel like debating with someone whos going to disagree with me regardless of if im right and then just say im wrong because im low elo. its more of a tactic to avoid unneccesary confrontation with small minded people.

Urieldhynne3 votes

Lee sin is a pick or ban in high elo or tournaments. That is enough to understand how broken is him.

Vargol2 votes

It doesnt matter for me if you are low, mid or high elo. Your opinion counts. You dont need to be an expert to know if i tell you that lee sin has almost all the mechanics of the game in his kit (without using items) that makes a big difference between him an the rest. The problem is that lee can be tank, can do dmg, can escape, can cc, can heal, can shield, slows, reveals invisible units, attack speed, energy regen and maybe i forgot something else. Youre right lee is popular, most people see the tournaments and begins to use champs that actually are played in the finals or by high elo teams. Lee is the case. And its getting worst because they dont fix lee sin (not the only one). Rito release champions that are closest to lee (Riven for example). Its a dangerous move because the game can transform in something chaotic that you cannot control anymore. Changes to the jungle (the importance of dragon, the buffs all focalized in dmg are signals that indicates the game is going that way). It can work?. Yes, of course it can... But im still dont understand why if you try to follow the dmg way, you tell me that making shen tank assassin can be a problem... The example is very clear. The game today is all dmg focused, shen´s ult many times is wortheless because you are dead before he teleports to your location and this is happening in this Season. And the worst part is that you have a lot of champs that nobody picks in ranked because they have zero utility and/or dmg compared to other champs (new ones).

Joe Dredd5 votes

Lee Sin is not tanky.

kijik22 votes

....What? The fact that he tends to build 1-2 damage items at most and go tank while still completely melting faces disagrees with you. Oh, and then there's his shield, no big though. Right?

Horrow17 votes

A shield while having sustain built into his kit.

kijik14 votes

Oh yes, let us not forget the free lifesteal and spell vamp!(when he has 3 high damaging abilities on short cool down and a disgusting single target/line aoe/CC nuke for his ultimate, also on a comparably short CD). Yeah, looking at this, Riot what the fuck?

Ariel the Cruel13 votes

Don't forget the bonus atk speed on his passive. Wouldn't want that life steal to go to waste.

kijik17 votes

All I can hear is an infomercial voice saying "BUT WAIT! THERES MORE!" in my head at this point.

Ariel the Cruel18 votes

"BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE!

Order now and in addition to getting TWO gap closers, we'll even throw in tier 2 base movement speed. That's right! Just in case you don't feel like using those gap closers, we'll make sure you outrun 90% of champions anyways!

Downfall4 votes

C-c-c-cOMBO BREAKER!Warwick

OyddAWqJ5r7 votes

WarwickR-------> LeeSin

item 3340 Warwick LeeSin ...^--------------------W

LeeSin R+Q->Warwick

LeeSinQ2----------------------------------------------------------> Warwick

.........................................................LeeSin Warwick Darius Ahri Jinx Thresh .....................................................................................^ Lee's team ^

You were saying?

Tuss2 votes

Art.

Joe Dredd2 votes

Anyone can build tank and then be tanky. Anyone who builds full damage will fuck your face (ever heard of crittlesticks (^:) Mixing the two will give you parts of both. This is true for all champions, not simply Lee Sin. And his shield really doesn't shield for much at all.

kijik5 votes

Alrighty then. For clarification. Builds tanky, and has a strong use for it/has it fit in with the playstyle. Also, by the same coin, there are all of zero(sparing poppy) champions in this game that are natural tanks without building a single defensive item. So on that end your argument is moot friend.

Joe Dredd2 votes

I'd say that people who have defensive steriods like J4 who passively gets armor on his E are naturally tanky. And also, most champions will be tanky building what Lee Sin builds. Vi would, Jax would, J4 would, Rengar would, etc.

TwoD8 votes

stop defending your freelo, its embarrassing.

Joe Dredd2 votes

I don't even play Lee Sin like that anymore cuz he really isn't good. You can check my history if you wanna make sure.

TwoD6 votes

idk about that, lee sin is one of the easiest champs I've played in this game up to date.

Joe Dredd3 votes
  1. Lee Sin is high skill cap whether you like it or not.
  2. Even if he was easy, being easy does not mean a champion is good.
TwoD5 votes

idk man I already said it, it's not hard to win playing Lee Sin. I rarely play Lee Sin and when I play him I feel like I'm playing a dumbed down Champion that can excel at most if not all things in the game.

Narasimha3 votes

it's not hard to win playing Lee Sin.

Just to jump in real quick, this is one case where pointing at his low win rate makes sense. Remember, Lee also has a decent pick rate. Which means the more people pick Lee, the more people learn how to play against Lee as well.

Urieldhynne5 votes

I used to play a LOT Shen, a lot. I feel like rito is trolling me, seriosly. Shen is great, but they do not want to buff him with damage because he can become a lee sin??? seriously? Rito pls.

ULTRAF0RCE1 votes

No that was an idea for shen to be reworked to be something more ninja like

Urieldhynne2 votes

Yes. But they dont want to transform Shen in a Lee Sin design because that design is broken, therefore why Lee Sin exist?

ULTRAF0RCE1 votes

Don't quote me but, I think that Lee sin is somewhere around the bottom of the rework schedule that riot currently has setup since I think they recognise that he has some major issues, such as a large ammount of damage, utility, and mobility with the possiblity for tankiness, but he is like Irelia where they are not completly sure what to do with him.

TLDR : Lee Sin was from a time whre they did not know better/ the game was balanced in a way where that was counteracted, maybe?

Balderdash10003 votes

He's been at the bottom of the rework schedule since he came out! You'd think by this point the might have actually... I don't know... reworked him? The saddest thing is that with all his nerfs he's still a top tier jungler. That pretty much says all you need to know about how broken Lee Sin's been until now.

Ariel the Cruel3 votes

The quote is out of context. Your comment even more so.

The discussion had nothing about Lee Sin. OP is just going for a cheap laugh (I think).

Vargol6 votes

No. You are wrong, is not out of context... Meddler is talking and explaining why shen cant be a tank assassin. But the topic ask if he is talking about lee sin. Why? because the arguments given by meddler represent an actual champ... in this case lee sin... So the automatic question is... Why give this arguments when you already have champs that are exactly what you deny? Is not out of context.. read the topic again and read the explanation. Of course has nothing to do with lee sin... but dont try to evade and pretending the argument is correct when is not. I can read meddlers comment as a joke or a troll answer...

Urieldhynne1 votes

Yes. But they dont want to transform Shen in a Lee Sin design because that design is broken, therefore why Lee Sin exist?

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

He doesn't believe tank/assassin is a healthy combo. The topic was about making Shen more ninja'ee. Lee Sin does everything. And he does it well. That's inherently unhealthy. Lee Sin doing everything and a specific arch-type union being unhealthy are 2 different topics.

As for why Lee Sin exists. Look back to each time they tried to nerf him. The Sh*t storms were detectable on the rector scale. Morello has admitted to this being a primary reason that Lee Sin is nearly immune to nerfs and reworks.

Vargol1 votes

But i cannot acuse someone of being a thief when im stealing too.... is what happened with meddler... you cant say what you say having a champ that does the same. So for me is a troll answer.. He practically describes lee sin in the answer and even gives details about why he thinks that a Tank assassin is wrong.

Morello cant answer that in a way of saying "We want to fix this but the community dont let us, so. its your fault, not ours".... WHAT?!

Retillin1 votes

{quoted}

Morello cant answer that in a way of saying "We want to fix this but the community dont let us, so. its your fault, not ours".... WHAT?!

This, so much this. It's how lately (in the past year or so) Riot seems to have shifted blame for faults onto the players. The reason a (toxic) overtunned champ is in the game, is that the players want it there... So if there were this much love for Poppy would she be untouchable?

Ariel the Cruel2 votes

If only there were that much love for Karma before she got replaced.

I guess 1k+ page topic or two on the LoL forums simply isn't enough when compared to the lee sin fan base nearly crashing the Reddit page.

Ariel the Cruel2 votes

The problem is Lee Sin. Period. Saying anything is a bad idea becomes moot when you compare it to to everything.

Lee Sin does everything. He does it well. He unhealthy, toxic, and violates nearly every stated value Riot has about modern champion design. It's not fair to bring him into comparisons like this, because will always provide the contradiction.

It's useless to say people shouldn't own guns because North Korea has nukes. The scale is just so vastly different the point becomes irrelevant.

Lee Sin is a problem. We know it. They know it. Lee Sin knows it. But it's not going to get fixed until Riot decides to bite the bullet and let the inevitable sh*t storm crash their servers for a few weeks. Until then, it's useless comparing him to other champs or design values. He's just going to become the pink elephant in the room.

Aurelius Maximus2 votes

lee sin aint tanky

Junkο11 votes

Shen isn't tanky if he doesn't build tanky.

Lee Sin has a shield (like Shen), but he also gains free lifesteal and spell vamp

Aurelius Maximus2 votes

no one is tanky unless they build tanky

except ali

LeeDark2 votes

Then neither is Shen. They share a similar defensive steroid in the shield, and Shen's is significantly worse by not being attached to mobility.

Aurelius Maximus1 votes

except no

Shen has a taunt and the ability to globally reposition himself on someone who needs peeling. In addition shen's ki strike allows him to benefit from stacking health and then his feint benefits from stacking armor and MR. This also encourages the enemy to focus shen as he feints to prevent further ki strikes.

not to mention shens q

Shen is encouraged to be built tanky and can succeed as such.

Tanky lee is garbage.

Poshriel2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Owl Or Nothing,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=uTGytlTt,comment-id=000b00010000,timestamp=2015-01-02T23:46:50.083+0000)

except no

Shen has a taunt and the ability to globally reposition himself on someone who needs peeling. In addition shen's ki strike allows him to benefit from stacking health and then his feint benefits from stacking armor and MR. This also encourages the enemy to focus shen as he feints to prevent further ki strikes.

not to mention shens q

Shen is encouraged to be built tanky and can succeed as such.

Tanky lee is garbage.

I would say shen has an unfortunate ultimate. You see your adc getting ready to fight in lane, you head down. You ult down getting maybe a kill, maybe not. If you don't, you went down there for a little farm if the adc lets you. Then you realize that riven or whatever stupid fast pushers are laning against you, have pushed two waves worth of experience and gold. One if you take teleport, which is required, but stupid because you can already go anywhere with your r. But if you don't take it you lose lane if a gank bot at level 6 doesn't work.

That means that you can't take battle spells like exhaust or ignite because of teleport, and the increasingly important flash spell.

Not to say he isn't good in a coordinated team. Eventually he gets so tanky that it doesn't matter. It just feels like his e is a better spell than his r. If I wanted to play a character to support the adc, I would have picked something like lulu or kayle, who have better support ults than uber tank shen, and sticking bot most the game means.

This is a good idea though. What if shen dropped a blade anywhere on the map, that gave a smaller shield in an area around it, that he could jump to if he needed to with the channel. And if someone clicked on the blade they would switch spots with him. That would send someone top to take the farm and exp and keep the lane from over pushing, and shen could take the place of the support.

That would be wicked and could even be used in team fights to allow an adc to re-position himself.

LeeDark4 votes

Really? Tanky Lee Sin is garbage. We'll just go tell all the LCS junglers that they were doing it wrong, then.

Lee Sin has an AoE slow on a short cooldown, a kick to displace the enemy and the mobility to kick that person any direction he wants. He also has good base stats for damage, and, thanks largely to his mobility, can build one or two offensive items without sacrificing tankiness, because he is too slippery to die with just a few tank items.

Shen has an all-or-nothing ult, Ki strike is laughable compared to the offensive ability of other tanks (like, for example, Mundo's E), and his taunt has been nerfed to oblivion that you are lucky if you hit two people, and skilled to just hit one.

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