Can we PLEASE just have a +0 lp loss if there is an afk

AlmightyLlamaGod·Nov 1, 2014·40 votes·4,336 views

Honestly I've lost so many ranked games due to this like its beyond ridiculous

84 Comments

Matthias9119Nov 2, 201417 votes

The short answer is: only if you also get 0LP gain for winning 5v4. Otherwise you create massive LP inflation over time and break Ranked.

LlaniteNov 2, 20144 votes

I have the solution, the afk loses x2.5. Everyone else lose 50% less.

KuradoNov 2, 20141 votes

It doesn't matter if the MMR gains/losses are the same. And those should remain the same regardless of AFK else it'll mess up matchmaking and create unbalanced games. Leavers will be matched with lower MMR players and get to stomp games more often in the games they do play. The solution is to ban the AFK.

LlaniteNov 2, 20141 votes

MMR is dynamic, it's not a 'fixed' gain of 10 elo +/- every single game, i.e. you'll lose more if you have much higher ELO than the winner. It cannot be 'inflated'.

KuradoNov 3, 20141 votes

You seem to have misread/misinterpreted my comment.

LeeDarkNov 2, 20144 votes

No you don't. Stop talking about math when you don't understand it.

LP is not a zerosum game like Elo is.

Matthias9119Nov 2, 20143 votes

LP is not a zerosum game like Elo is.

Yes, it is, and in fact they already do some deflationary things (like when you win at 99LP you are "losing" the rest of the LP gain you should have gotten).

Otherwise people at a 50% winrate would slowly drift upwards in LP and rank.

LeeDarkNov 2, 20141 votes

No, they wouldn't. People at a 50% winrate would never progress to the next tier. If you consisitently win one game and lose one game, you will forever be unable to win your promotionals. Assuming you also win more LP than you lose, eventually you would win a game that puts you into your promotionals, then lose one, win one, and lose one, dropping back to 75 LP.

Your own example shows it isn't a zerosum game. The leftover LP when you go from 99 to 100 is obviously not zerosum, and it isn't done for deflation. For LP to be a zerosum game, everytime YOU move up a division or tier, you would have to be taking someone else's place and they would drop down.

Seriously, learn2math. You obviously have no background in statistics, so stop pretending like you do.

LlaniteNov 2, 20141 votes

I progress at 40% just fine. There are people in Plat/Gold V who have 30 wins 60 loss. In fact, you will have much greater loss rate if you progressed fast and ELO is inconsistent.

Also, ELO isn't zero-sum, your gain and loss based off your current ELO and your opponent, i.e. you may gain 10 but he loses only 3.

l2noob4ulNov 2, 20141 votes

the 30 wins and 60 losses are likely because of being higherly ranked or boosted previous season.

lp gain is changed depending on your mmr compared to the "expected" mmr of your rank, so if u're a gold V, but have the mmr of like a silver III, then u';ll gain like 10 and lose 30 until ur rank matches your mmr then you gain around 20-25.

the 50% win rate is true that after you hit the rank you belong you will be winning as much as you lose and since ur mmr will be where you belong, ur gain would be the same as your loss

the 99lp situation. u dont "lose" the lp u were suppose to gain because this will increase ur mmr by 1 games worth even if u were 99lp.

the 99lp situations, and 2-0 promos and or 3-0 promos (if you go 3-0 promos ur mmr increases by 3 games worth, while if u go 3-2, its only 1 games worth, but the end result is a promotion but your mmr greatly increases with the 3-0) along with win streaks this allows some players to skip divisions and promos(when your is alot higher than your rank)

the tier/division/lp system is just a visual representation of mmr which riot implemented as to be more rewarding for the average player

LeeDarkNov 2, 20141 votes

Elo is zerosum. It is designed that way. Any system that modifies it away from zerosum causes points inflation and should no longer call it an Elo system.

You also have no clue what you are talking about and no background in statistics. Kindly GTFO.

LlaniteNov 3, 20141 votes

Then kindly explain to me how someone got +7 and someone else -3 and total = 0 (zerosum?) you statistic genius?

LeeDarkNov 3, 20141 votes

Because, in a team game, you cannot look at just two people. You have to record the points for all ten. The Elo system is designed to be zerosum. What part about that do you not get? It can be modified, but any modification that takes it away from zerosum stops the system from being an Elo system anymore.

you grammar genius? (sic)

Seriously, you are only embarrassing yourself. For your own good, don't reply. I'm trying to do you a favor here.

LlaniteNov 3, 20141 votes

LOL who embarrassed who?

ELO is NOT a zerosum, genius. Google is your friend. Your brain desperately needs a remodel.

LeeDarkNov 4, 20141 votes

"In a pure Elo system, each game ends in an equal transaction of rating points. If the winner gains N rating points, the loser will drop by N rating points. This prevents points from entering or leaving the system when games are played and rated."

A simple look at the formulas for updating a players rating shows that, no matter what, if you do not modify the formulas and are using the same K-value, if you plug in two players who played against each other, their ratings will change by an equally inverse amount. The above quote is simpler, taken directly from Wikipedia, so even an idiot could understand it. YOU might still have trouble. The article also provides the formulas if you care to try the math yourself.

Elo is zerosum. Google obviously wasn't a good enough friend to you, and we are done here. I will not waste another second on someone who refuses to educate themselves. Come back when you have a brain at all.

Matthias9119Nov 2, 20142 votes

No, they wouldn't. People at a 50% winrate would never progress to the next tier. If you consisitently win one game and lose one game, you will forever be unable to win your promotionals.

Careful observers should note that a 50% winrate over time doesn't mean you always win one and then lose one immediately afterwards.

Your own example shows it isn't a zerosum game.

It may not be zero sum in any particular game. As an example, if every player on the losing team is at 0LP but does not get demoted in that loss, the game must resut in a net gain of LP. However, the system is set up to prevent runaway inflation from players that bounce around a 50% winrate, and negating LP losses in matches while allowing full gains for the other team will result in that happening.

Seriously, learn2math. You obviously have no background in statistics, so stop pretending like you do.

Gee, what a convincing argument.

LeeDarkNov 2, 20141 votes

Even on a longer scale of games, if you win ten and lose ten, in some random order, the only way a 50% win ratio advances you to the next tier is if you max out the number of losses you can have at zero LP without dropping down a tier, then you have room with win streaks to get back up, win 3 out of 4 games to get into and sucessfully out of your promotionals, and move up. Further, just as at 99 LP, the simple fact that you CAN lose games at zero LP and not immediately drop down a tier means that BY DEFINITION, it is not a zerosum situation. You have no clue what you are talking about, so just stop.

Seriously, your brand of stupidity is maddening. For the sake of the sanity of every intelligent person here, just stop.

Matthias9119Nov 3, 20141 votes

I'm just going to try to clarify and then I'm out.

Even on a longer scale of games, if you win ten and lose ten, in some random order, the only way a 50% win ratio advances you to the next tier is if you max out the number of losses you can have at zero LP without dropping down a tier, then you have room with win streaks to get back up, win 3 out of 4 games to get into and sucessfully out of your promotionals, and move up...

What I'm saying is that if you gain LP and/or MMR from 5v4 games but don't lose it from 4v5s, you will slowly gain LP and/or MMR even if you're at a 50% winrate in all your other matches. (I'm assuming you will win almost all 5v4s and lose almost all 4v5s.)

Eventually this process will put you into promos. Then you just need 2 (division) or 3 (tier) wins in a row to promote. Repeat long enough for everyone and every player in Ranked will be in Master tier.

LegendariNov 2, 201413 votes

If somebody is DC'd or afk right from the start of the game, the game shouldn't even start (at least not in ranked). The game should pause for a short time to allow for reconnecting as a result of a bugsplat, etc. and if they don't return, the player and their duo partner (if applicable) should take an LP hit equivalent to a dodge while everyone else is returned to the queue.

If somebody ragequits or goes afk during the game, they should get an increased LP penalty, temporary restriction from entering another ranked queue (not 5 minutes, more like 5 hours or more), and their team should get loss prevented or at least reduced LP loss. If they are in a duo with somebody, their duo partner should take a hit as well, to prevent abuse of the system.

Problem solved...

pE4CbxDPQONov 2, 20142 votes

If somebody is DC'd or afk right from the start of the game, the game shouldn't even start (at least not in ranked). The game should pause for a short time to allow for reconnecting as a result of a bugsplat, etc. and if they don't return, the player and their duo partner (if applicable) should take an LP hit equivalent to a dodge while everyone else is returned to the queue.

If somebody ragequits or goes afk during the game, they should get an increased LP penalty, temporary restriction from entering another ranked queue (not 5 minutes, more like 5 hours or more), and their team should get loss prevented or at least reduced LP loss. If they are in a duo with somebody, their duo partner should take a hit as well, to prevent abuse of the system.

Problem solved...

All of this and more. Not like it would even be hard to implement and it would have a drastic nearly-immediate change on the landscape of the game and the community.

Sailor MintNov 2, 20141 votes

Allowing games to be remade if the game starts with uneven teams is already planned. Loss prevented for anything but server issues will never be a thing.

Queue with a throwaway smurf account who dodges when you're losing so you get loss prevented.
Replace throwaway accounts by purchasing new ones from shady places.
Profit.

End result: A lot of abuse and even more threads about accounts getting leveled up by bots.

LegendariNov 2, 20144 votes

Allowing games to be remade if the game starts with uneven teams is already planned. Loss prevented for anything but server issues will never be a thing.

Queue with a throwaway smurf account who dodges when you're losing so you get loss prevented.

Replace throwaway accounts by purchasing new ones from shady places.

Profit.

End result: A lot of abuse and even more threads about accounts getting leveled up by bots.

Just give the duo partner the same penalty... not that hard...

Sailor MintNov 2, 20141 votes

We're punishing innocent people now?

I should lose more LP, or even possibly not gain LP from a win, because my duo lost Internet? And that's not even talking about the trolling possibilities.

LegendariNov 2, 20142 votes

We're punishing innocent people now?

I should lose more LP, or even possibly not gain LP from a win, because my duo lost Internet? And that's not even talking about the trolling possibilities.

For starters, if you think somebody you duo with would do this to you on purpose, why would you duo with them? I'd say that's your fault for having troll friends.

As for punishing innocent people, I'd gladly take the LP hit from the SUPER RARE occasion that my duo partner DCs and doesn't come back if I could get loss prevented for the VERY FREQUENT occurences of teammates rage quitting, DCing, and going afk and causing my team to lose. I think it would be more than a fair trade off, and I'd definitely be points ahead. People with unstable connections shouldn't be playing in ranked anyway.

Sailor MintNov 2, 20142 votes

Less than 3% is very frequent now?

Nearly 500 games this season, and I don't think I've had more than 10 genuine leavers.

LegendariNov 2, 20142 votes

Less than 3% is very frequent now?

Nearly 500 games this season, and I don't think I've had more than 10 genuine leavers.

Come play in Silver elo for a while... people pretty much ragequit if the other team gets first blood these days... it's like a cesspool of entitled little children.

StarrowNov 2, 20141 votes

If somebody is DC'd or afk right from the start of the game, the game shouldn't even start (at least not in ranked). The game should pause for a short time to allow for reconnecting as a result of a bugsplat, etc. and if they don't return, the player and their duo partner (if applicable) should take an LP hit equivalent to a dodge while everyone else is returned to the queue.

If somebody ragequits or goes afk during the game, they should get an increased LP penalty, temporary restriction from entering another ranked queue (not 5 minutes, more like 5 hours or more), and their team should get loss prevented or at least reduced LP loss. If they are in a duo with somebody, their duo partner should take a hit as well, to prevent abuse of the system.

Problem solved...

/thread

Reset Pain TrainNov 1, 20147 votes

no.

EDIT There's too many ways to exploit this. As frustrating as afks are-- no.

HayaishiNov 2, 20141 votes

no.

EDIT There's too many ways to exploit this. As frustrating as afks are-- no.

how will it be exploited i can only see this exploited by duos.

NarasimhaNov 2, 20143 votes

Because it becomes far too easy to pressure someone into leaving. "Oh don't worry, you're already 0/11, atleast if you leave we all won't lose LP. Do the right thing."

HayaishiNov 2, 20142 votes

Because it becomes far too easy to pressure someone into leaving. "Oh don't worry, you're already 0/11, atleast if you leave we all won't lose LP. Do the right thing."

but the guy will lose LP if he leaves. If he is not stupid he will play it out and make everyone else lose LP for being bm.

DelimonNov 2, 20141 votes

Because it becomes far too easy to pressure someone into leaving. "Oh don't worry, you're already 0/11, atleast if you leave we all won't lose LP. Do the right thing."

mute button

OJ191Nov 2, 20142 votes

Because it becomes far too easy to pressure someone into leaving. "Oh don't worry, you're already 0/11, atleast if you leave we all won't lose LP. Do the right thing."

There IS a mute function you know.

Just make it like -50 LP, -25 to duo partner if applicable, if people cave to abuse instead of muting that is their problem and those doing the abusing will get banned eventually anyway so the rank inflation is negligible

Nobody is going to quit for -50 LP they will just mute instead, and if a smurf tries it their duo will lose LP anyway so it's pointless.

We Are EternalNov 2, 20141 votes

no.

EDIT There's too many ways to exploit this. As frustrating as afks are-- no.

LeaverBuster /debunked...

KuradoNov 2, 20144 votes

You probably won more ranked games due to this. Unless you yourself are AFK often. Players tend to bias when they've lost because of a leaver and how many leavers they had over the other teams. Often I hear people blame the loss on a leaver, but they were already so far behind that the game was pretty much decided. Then in the opposite situation when they are beating the other team hard their leaver isn't counted because they won the game anyways. Additionally the players forget about the games where the other team had a leaver yet they do remember the leaver on their team. Leavers are bad, but they favor your chances in the long run.

PL55Nov 2, 20143 votes

But they need to make sure it's a legitimate afk, not someone intentionally leaving to be the "good guy" of the team by letting everyone have -0 LP loss. If this is done, then they should only make this happen for disconnects or bug splats in the early stages until they find a solution that would make sure that you can't just afk for the team.

ChaosThiefNov 2, 20143 votes

How exactly would you stop sacrificial lambs then? The guys who are willing to leave to give the rest of the team reduced LP?

Unless they have to be AFK from the start, if so then never mind that.

Berry BlastNov 2, 20142 votes

im stuck in silver because people afk or ragequit alot and i do really bad too sometimes because of shacos and no one has map awareness :( i actually made a post like this and people were saying the same thing about they would just force the feeder to leave...but if the feeder or w.e already knows the people harrassing him will only benefit and he only suffers why would he leave? everyone has a bad game every now and then and everyone still flames people so i dont think there will be a change since like 3/4 of the community is toxic all the time anyway.

SukishooNov 2, 20142 votes

They have no way of telling that though. How is the game supposed to understand when or why someone is gone? If they are gone, then it should honestly give neither teams anything but it can't.

ChargeItDownMidNov 3, 20141 votes

[deleted]

SukishooNov 3, 20141 votes

But it only does that in a few cases for very easy things that can be detected (like afk in a lobby is what you are referring to). However, if the game is already going, the only thing they do in the case of those games is give the leaver a leave on their match history, they can't really do much else for the rest of the team. It's the way the system is built. They'd have to fully rebuild it from the ground up.

It's like when people lose LP for getting a leave when the game crashes on them, riot can't give you those points back because the LP system is locked so that people (including Riot) don't abuse it.

FlagrockNov 2, 20142 votes

Riot has stated multiple times they will not implement a system that stops LP loss from AFKs because of its abuse. By allowing 0LP losses, it is only PROMOTING trying to verbally abuse someone into quitting the game. Plain and simple.

Riot however has stated, with TRUE BUGSPLATS or DC issues related to RIOT servers that there should be a system that instantly drops the game after a set period of wait.

Personally, afkers are really annoying and bad. I hate having them happen too. However, I have been the one, and had people have afks due to bugsplats/dcs and we have come back (with the afker joining at 15 minutes) to win the game... It's possible and if Riot allows an "opt-out" way of not losing LP instead of trying to fight for a win, then it will be abused and people will refuse to try and salvage games.

tl;dr: Riot is trying to work on a non-abusable system to help; until then try to stall until your dcer comes back and try to win the ranked game.

UnicornPurpleNov 2, 20142 votes

When Starcraft 1 (the original) first came out you could avoid a loss by simply unplugging your modem. I knew too many people who would just unplug the modem anytime the game was going poorly. It was highly abused even then (and this was the late 90s), so in this day and age imagine how many people would take advantage of it. Particularly in duo queues. You disconnect for this game, I'll disconnect for the next etc.

KOSHER TACONov 2, 20142 votes

Just make it so the person who AFK's get's five people's worth of LP loss?

KuradoNov 2, 20141 votes

You mean they would also lose MMR? So they'll get matched at a lower level and basically get to stomp like smurfs. Doesn't seem like a good idea either.