Issues With The New Jungle (A Documentary)

Heptium··6 votes·1,441 views

I lied about the documentary.

It seems to be a common discussion among Jungle mains that the Jungle doesn't feel quite right. Strategic Diversity actually has fallen, opposite to what Riot has attempted to do. It has become a very sustain dominated Jungle, where anyone who has free sustain (Xin ZhaoXinZhao , WarwickWarwick , FiddlesticksFiddlesticks ) or anyone who is very Tanky (J4JarvanIV , Lee SinLeeSin ) can strive, whereas any Assassin or low-sustain like Junglers have fallen behind (Kha'ZixKhazix , HecHecarim , MundoDrMundo , ShyvanaShyvana , EvelynnEvelynn , NocturneNocturne ). To mention, it's nearly impossible to Jungle on non-traditional Junglers like MordekaiserMordekaiser , ShenShen , TeemoTeemo , SingedSinged etc.. (I don't even want to mention Marksmen). I can throw out a lot of champion names, but since this topic is so wildly discussed I don't feel like it's necessary.

A common problem with the Jungle is the monsters hit VERY hard in the early game (Tones down naturally because of damage/tankiness and other factors), but the gold income is usually behind a laner who is managing a moderately high CS. I think camps should hit a little less hard, little more quickly, even out the health a little more, and even out the damage between all the monsters at the camp. This would allow the Jungler to take less damage overall, especially after killing one. For example Blue buff starts at 2000 HP while the two little guys start at 400, which needless to say, is a huge difference.

Some champions would appreciate if they would move more easily between the monsters themselves. You should be able to walk through these monsters, if you have a macheteitem 1039 (and upgrades). I think this is incredibly valuable for some Junglers that really need an edge. They should also surround you, instead of clumping in oddly. If you want them to clump like that, you should need to back up, but initially they should surround more. It would make sense, seeing how Wolves like to attack in a circle like pattern. Champions that could benefit from this type of movement are ZacZac (being able to pick up clumps MUCH easier) and Kha'ZixKhazix (being able to isolate a little easier) for example.

If you're leaning into the fact that Junglers get more gold then laners for clears, why not just remove the fact that laners get Gold from their own Jungle and only the enemies? There's actually nothing worse then trying to farm up, and having a team mate clear your Jungle camp when you are A) Trying to get gold and B) Stacking an item.

Spawn times need to be decreased as time goes on, lanes get more cannons later on, I don't see why the Jungle needs to fall out. This also allows fast clearer Junglers to do what they do best, if they decide to go that route. If I'm playing UdyrUdyr , and I want to play Farming Simulator 2015 I shouldn't need to go into the enemy jungle or wait 40 seconds. I should NOT have to go in the Enemy Jung in order to farm. If you didn't go with my other suggestion of eliminating gold from the team's friendly Jungle without Macheteitem 1039 , it would allow more late game gold for the team, thus progressing the game farther, or even allowing a come back through Jungle farming tactics.

Now to express the philosophy of the Jungle role of this season but starting with last season first. Last season Jungle had a more influence on the game early, mid and late. Junglers with fast clear were often more dominate because of the early game pressure, and that was an issue, I don't disregard that, but even odd-ball champions could Jungle more effectively. Jungle diversity has fallen, and that's a fact, and that develops a long term cancer for the game itself. We already seen this problem with Warwick, and this will happen again. When things are extremely difficult to reach a goal, often the best of the best is highlighted and oversaturated. While Warwick had a problem with his overly strong sustain and on-hit effects, he almost single handedly broke the game, and it did not take long for players to recognize this. It won't be long before people learn that Xin-Zhao, or Fiddlesticks are just too good at what they do and only play them.

I feel like I should add a lot of Pro players are not enjoying the new Jungle, a notable person is TheOddOne. He has expressed his disappointment and confusion with the new Jungle numerous times, explaining that the new Jungle kind of forces you to take the back seat and be pre-6 pressure and support late game.

Upvote it and comment please, I'll continue to improve on the ideas or add more if anyone has suggestions.

18 Comments

Fadedpf3 votes

I agree with all of this, im just waiting for an asshole to come and say "JUNGLE ISNT SUPPOSED TO BE EASY" When the FACTS are, its not easy but can we not need 5 pots and trailblazer to fucking clear? Junglers are a mobile support, they dont get much exp or gold in this new jungle anyways and everyone is going to tell me these monsters arent on roids?

Heptium3 votes

Personally, I do not want Junglers to be supports. I don't feel like it's a wise idea for two people in the game to be hindered because of the role they pick. We had this problem a long time ago when Support was really SUPPORTING. They mentioned that someone supporting shouldn't feel so well, supporty. Junglers should have the option to be the carry, to be the tank, to be the support, to farm, to assist lanes etc.. Choices need to be easier met. I'm glad they are adding Double Smite because that really does open up a lot for a lot of champions.

Fadedpf1 votes

I dont mean junglers are actual supports, junglers secure objectives, kills and help anyone they can. But this new jungle turns it into a meta of about 5 viable picks and actually ganking and taking dragons is tough we you cant farm unless your name is leesin

kanacho1 votes

The only thing keeping junglers in a support-like role is the fact that they get so little gold. They took steps to try and mend this, reducing all large mob gold by 10, but making jungle upgrade items give 20 gold, creating a net 10 more gold profit to junglers farming. That seems small, but is a pretty big difference. I still think they need to increase the gold just a little bit more, even if that gold bounty takes effect a little bit later mid-game than at the start. Personally junglers just need a tiny bit of a gold boost to farming. Not too much of course, because jungle item power spikes are already strong as it is, and getting them too early could push junglers to the brink of broken.

Need Gold 4 Tent1 votes

You don't need 5 pots and trailblazer unless you're intending to powerfarm in the jungle for a whole 10 mins without backing or something.

I jungle vayne and have 1 potion left after first clear. With melees like shen, the "TF" trick works to an extent, you move back and forth on the reset point and auto once every 1 or 2 seconds to proc your jungler passive. The jungle burn passive will reaggro the monster and cause it to chase you back and forth while you sneak in autoattacks each time its back is turned.

Those who mindlessly engage in a manly brawl with the bristleback may find themselves getting executed, unless they're goddamn ww. Play dirty.

After your first buy jungle usually ceases to be an issue.

Need Gold 4 Tent1 votes

Edit: moving between autos also allows for some regen from your jungle passive from the small mobs, which will usually be a net heal if you manage to avoid getting hit by the big monster

kanacho3 votes

That's funny because I play non-junglers in the jungle and they seem to do just fine, if not better. To be honest I didn't read through your whole post, but I don't really think people's complaints about it actually creating the opposite of strategic diversity is warranted. Honestly, Magus has become one of the most amazing jungle enchants there is early game. It turns people like Diana, or Amumu, or Even non-traditional junglers like Akali into high-powered early damage-spiking champs. Getting that early power can really help you sway the tide of lanes but it's certainly not enough to decide a game in itself. The other jungler gets access to just as useful items. The thing is that I don't at all think sustain junglers are anymore dominate than they were before, and I think they are even less dominate. With the nerf to Skirmishers for AS based champs, it makes sustain junglers even less dominate, and opens the way for people like Kha'Zix and the lot. The reason Kha is seen less is that he actually got nerfed on his spikes... His sustain isn't as strong as it was with the W, and no lizard buff means no natural sustain in jungle via jungle items. The thing that's holding champs back like that, is the lack of adapting their play-style. With the nerf to Krugs, Starting Gromp is all the more enticing, as it provides very solid level scaling damage to mobs, and is definitely the mob I start with usually for any non-traditional jungler and it works great. Kha's problems are not solely in the jungle, it's the nerf that hit him where he needed his power most after the changes. Although, if you can survive early jungle as Kha (not too hard), you can fix your jungle clear/sustain with a trailblazer, and then get a huge power spike with a warrior's enchant that turns him into a very powerful ganking lane assassin.

Also, Gold and EXP rewards were increased making jungles spike to mid-laner levels sooner for the early part of the game, meaning that early ganks can be really strong.

Heptium3 votes

Akali isn't that non-traditional, and she has natural sustain. She just usually isn't picked because of lack of pre-6 Pressure to help laners. Champions like Mumu do % Damage and thus can clear just fine, similiar to Zac. Diana I do not feel you are correct about, she has a very poor late game and hard to find use to her early (mostly personal opinion).

It's not just about early game either, my post.

kanacho3 votes

I play graves jungle, Zac jungle, Akali jungle, Played amumu jungle a tiny bit, done jungle as xin, jungled as yi, and as a matter of fact, I actually spent almost all my time that I played league on jungling when the new rift jungle was released. I've played the new jungle A LOT. I know very well that Akali wasn't a very good jungler with the old jungle since she was so radically trumped by every other jungler (I know that for fact since Akali has been my main for quite some time), and I also personally think that Akali has been given a LARGE door to the jungle to walk through. Magus has given her the early power she needs to really lock In the early games ganks, and the EXP increases to jungles makes getting to level 3 quite quick and easy after only a few camps meaning that even pre-6 before my shadow dance, I can gank pretty solidly. And once jungle levels start to lag behind top/mid laners, that's when I get my ulti at 6 and get really powerful ganks. Akali is MUCH MUCH better in the new jungle, and I've had plenty of first-hand experience with that. I don't think that complaints about the jungle being "too hard" are even warranted, because I've had absolutely next to no trouble clearing jungle just as efficiently as I did in the old jungle as the gold and EXP rewards were increased.

Heptium2 votes

I wasn't trying to say she's bad, I was saying she is good.

Try Mundo, Shyvana, Morde

I also am NOT a fan of soft leashing camps. I think that is just silly. To be able to prevent camps from hitting you (The TF trick, http://youtu.be/raflpaH7cFc?t=1m6s)

kanacho2 votes

Played Shyvana jungle and it's amazing. Shyvana's damage is even more hilarious with the devourer potential, and her super good farming due to her powerful jungle clear. Haven't tried morde or mundo though.

Also the "TF Trick" seems more like a Ranged Champ Trick, considering I can replicate the effect of jungles not hitting you while you doing damage to them on any ranged champ. That's something I personally don't like at all, and it ruins how jungle should function to be honest...

TheKingDodo1 votes

The TF trick IS extendable to all ranged champ... clearly OP's never seen the linked videos on karthus, ziggs, and twitch jungle

TheKingDodo1 votes

Morde's clear is epic never doubt le huehuehue. It is pretty slow early though. Hecarim isn't that bad either, Khazix's first clear's no problem at all, you just have to learn camp order. If you mess up your first smite and doesn't get a good buff, you'll be pretty screwed. Mundo's pretty hard, but definitely doable. The thing is you definitely need a little bit of AS early so you can deal constant damage/benefit from krug buff Nocturne, teemo and singed jungle's no problem. I suspect OP's having trouble learning the game

Yoshuo1 votes

Agreed +1

IAM2FKINGKawaii1 votes

That's why I ban fiddle and invade the enemy jungle all day on Vi.

Sammystorm1 votes

Eh their is a fine balance. If it is too easy aoe champs will dominate. If it is too hard champs that can sustain or tank and then gank will thrive.

Dryditch1 votes

Nocturne jungle OP with trailblazer. Try starting krugs if you have issues.

Skarner has INSANE jungle clear with his built in stun and shield.

Just try changing your style if your champ doesn't work in jungle.

Bears Dont Care1 votes

They do not want non-trditional junglers in the jungle anymore. They stated it as partof their aim.

More from Gameplay