What can be done about lane Nidalee?

spirit vanished·Mar 22, 2016·2 votes·1,270 views

As a lane Nidalee main (primarily AD build), I'm starting to think there's no happy ending for her in that role. What I mean by that is the introduction of jungle Nidalee; she was instantly overpowered simply by adding the hunt mechanic and has gone through a barrage of nerfs over time (apparently will keep going through some more). Any buff to AD Nidalee or AP Nidalee in a lane would just buff Nidalee's jungle clear and go backwards on the nerfs to her jungle role.

My concern: is there any way to buff Nidalee for a lane without buffing jungle Nidalee? I don't think it's fair to say that "she's a jungler now, get over it" because by that same logic, you can't revert her ability to jungle simply because people have already played it and gotten to love/main it.

16 Comments

AsphodelNextMar 22, 20161 votes

Probably some jungle specific things, like removing the 2 second root on jungle monsters from traps/spear, or, more drastically, removing the ability to mark jungle monsters(essentially reverting the patch 5.2 changes) Though the latter might remove her ability to jungle entirely, if you combine it with buffs to her overall power, she could become a mid-tier jungler again, though maybe not as top-tier as she is now.

ErockandrollMar 22, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Viridian City,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tq328zAL,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-03-22T01:57:48.160+0000)

I don't think it's fair to say that "she's a jungler now, get over it" because by that same logic, you can't revert her ability to jungle simply because people have already played it and gotten to love/main it.

As someone who's been observing the game state for a while now. Riot may not actually like Nid in any other place than the Jungle.

It seemed like when solo lane nid was still a thing, everything boiled down to a stats check. AP nid would chunk you out with Nuclear tipped spears. AD nid would become a monstrous split pusher. All of that was a knifes edge for balance.

Putting her in the Jungle just, inherently made her play more interesting simply because she had to make more choices. And people asked for Jungle nid for a while simply because it best fit her fantasy.

Potentially, you could nerf her jungle specific bonuses and compensate with raw power. That said, I would understand if Riot had decided that her Solo lane game play wasn't worth supporting.

spirit vanishedMar 22, 20161 votes

The thing is, I understand that. It's just not entirely fair that Riot decided that on 5.2 they were going to basically disregard every lane Nidalee main out there and focus 100% on jungle. I messed around with jungle Nidalee before the hunt mechanic and it wasn't that bad. The only thing she needed was, obviously, something like the hunt mechanic.

I'm just concerned because lane Nidalee has become fairly frustrating to play lately and there seems to be no way out of that simply because any buff to lane is a buff to jungle. Yeah, there are the jungle specific nerfs but at this point it feels like it's really just jungle or no jungle.

NahuiMar 22, 20161 votes

What's wrong with jungle only champions? Nidalee of all makes sense lol. Nocturne, Nidalee, Nunu..

But lane nidalee is just a game of time. She just throws Q's until she hits one, then all in and take the lane. That's why they took her out.

spirit vanishedMar 22, 20161 votes

It's a problem when the identity of that champion wasn't that way for years and people mained her in the role for years. It's like taking your favorite lane champion and locking them into jungle only.

Her gameplay wasn't what you just described though. It's also dependent on whether you're AP or AD.

NahuiMar 22, 20161 votes

Actually it was just that. Throw nukes down lane until you land a couple, then the lane is all yours. Now she is where she belongs thematically. The jungle.

spirit vanishedMar 22, 20161 votes

Realistically, AP Nidalee was all about sieging. If you land a spear, great. If not then that's fine too. It was a more passive lane. AD was a more lane dominant build that can splitpush a lot. It's kind of easy to say "just throw some nukes down lane" but that didn't actually happen often at all unless your opponent misplayed.

NahuiMar 22, 20161 votes

Yes, but there were different types of sieging champions. Xerath, Ziggs were sieging champions, however did not massively chunk you after landing their siege poke. They did not heal themselves upon taking damage. Keep in mind, this was also when Nid's spear had a much wider hitbox.

Nidalee simply farmed and poked her head to the side once and a while or ran ahead of the creep wave to throw her nuke spear. Either it hit and the lane was essentially hers or it missed and she snapped her fingers, said oh darn, and waited for the cooldown to come back to do it again. They don't rework for no reason. They didn't decide one day "Wait a second, Nidalee should be a jungler because it fits her theme. Let's do that." They did it because her laning was oppressive and just flat out boring.

spirit vanishedMar 22, 20161 votes

You're only accounting for season 3 and before. Your argument doesn't really stand because they reduced the hitbox in s4 and a lot of what you're talking about was changed. That was the rework. The jungle addition wasn't a rework, literally just an addition to her passive and that drove her over the edge. I'm talking more-so about her post-rework, before jungle. I agree with it thematically but the fact stands that she wasn't always that. It's basically "lets just forget about lane Nidalee and make her a jungler".

As someone who mained it for so long before the rework and after, I love her fast gameplay and in lane it was rather easy to tell a newer Nidalee from a more experienced one whenever I faced one. There's tricks and reactions that you can only continuously get correct with experience. There's no champion that has to forego the whole "lock you out of a role" thing for the most part. Hecarim can be hecarim in 2 to 3 lanes. Graves can be 3 roles as well. Nidalee is in a spot where it's either lane or jungle and that's what I'm trying to bring up. Maybe a solution to having the two coexist with some changes to how she jungles.

NahuiMar 22, 20161 votes

They reduced the hitbox and then put her in the jungle for a reason. Again, reworks aren't nonsensically handed out. Her style of lane was just unfun and really uninteractive. She didn't have combos really, didn't have any sort of special mechanics. She just had a linear skill shot that was feast or famine.

There really is no way to buff her lane that will leave her jungle unaffected besides complicated, exclusive code along the lines of "280 base damage with .8 Ratio except against jungle monsters, then 220 with .6 ratio" sort of thing. It's just not worth it. Riot and most players I'm sure are happy with how Nidalee turned out. She went from throwing nukes to throwing large bombs and then to jump into the fray for a combo. She went from a feast/famine mid laner who worked off of hit/miss to a jungler who has great gank potential through more than just a linear nuke. Also, you could still take Nidalee mid and probably do fine. There's nothing in her ratios or kit that is binding her to the jungle. She's farther apart from the jungle than someone like Nocturne or Evelynn. She's just better in the jungle.

AbyssphereMar 22, 20161 votes

{quoted}

They reduced the hitbox and then put her in the jungle for a reason. Again, reworks aren't nonsensically handed out. Her style of lane was just unfun and really uninteractive. She didn't have combos really, didn't have any sort of special mechanics. She just had a linear skill shot that was feast or famine.

There really is no way to buff her lane that will leave her jungle unaffected besides complicated, exclusive code along the lines of "280 base damage with .8 Ratio except against jungle monsters, then 220 with .6 ratio" sort of thing. It's just not worth it. Riot and most players I'm sure are happy with how Nidalee turned out. She went from throwing nukes to throwing large bombs and then to jump into the fray for a combo. She went from a feast/famine mid laner who worked off of hit/miss to a jungler who has great gank potential through more than just a linear nuke. Also, you could still take Nidalee mid and probably do fine. There's nothing in her ratios or kit that is binding her to the jungle. She's farther apart from the jungle than someone like Nocturne or Evelynn. She's just better in the jungle.

Nidalee mid had about a 39% win rate last time she was popular enough to even show up on statistical websites. I'm honestly certain that Nocturne at least would be significantly more likely to win games if taken mid lane. So I don't think you can just randomly take Nidalee mid and do fine.

NahuiMar 22, 20161 votes

I mean there's nothing in her kit preventing her from going mid. Absolutely nothing. Has mobility, a strong gap closer, great damage, executes, heals. Even quasi-wards. However with her rework, everyone has the mentality that she has to go jungle, so mid was not popular anymore. She's definitely better jungle, but her kit isn't so radically different than before that she can't go mid. She just no longer has a massive power dump into one spell. I don't think Nocturne would do better mid considering his mana costs prevent him from trading effectively as he is melee and will take easy poke when CSing.

AbyssphereMar 22, 20161 votes

{quoted}

I mean there's nothing in her kit preventing her from going mid. Absolutely nothing. Has mobility, a strong gap closer, great damage, executes, heals. Even quasi-wards. However with her rework, everyone has the mentality that she has to go jungle, so mid was not popular anymore. She's definitely better jungle, but her kit isn't so radically different than before that she can't go mid. She just no longer has a massive power dump into one spell. I don't think Nocturne would do better mid considering his mana costs prevent him from trading effectively as he is melee and will take easy poke when CSing.

Her kit is still a functioning mid kit, it's just not got the numbers for it anymore. Nidalee took a lot of hits in exchange for jungle-exclusive power and lane Nidalee obviously doesn't get any benefit from that, so it's a straight gutting for her. Mid lane Nid still works in the same way that anyone who's ever been a mid laner still works, but she's horrendous because of her numbers. She works about as well mid as post-rework Veigar or post-Riftwalk-gutting Kassadin did and champions get massive buffs when they're in those conditions for a reason.

AbyssphereMar 22, 20161 votes

{quoted}

What's wrong with jungle only champions? Nidalee of all makes sense lol. Nocturne, Nidalee, Nunu..

But lane nidalee is just a game of time. She just throws Q's until she hits one, then all in and take the lane. That's why they took her out.

As far as I can tell, jungle Nidalee has basically proven herself virtually impossible to balance, thanks to a mixture of an extremely versatile and safe kit and probably the highest skillcap in the jungle by far (primarily strategically, but her jungle clear is so bafflingly mechanical compared to literally anyone else). She was being picked in competitive play even when she sat on like 42% win rates and when Riot was forced to buff her so she wasn't trash for regular people (early game spear damage), she returned to being the #1 competitive jungler. Lane Nidalee wasn't anywhere near as hard to play as jungle Nidalee because the mechanics necessary to do so were much easier and the strategy behind it was much simpler - as a result, Riot never had any balance issue between normal Nidalee and competitive Nidalee (she was usually comparably powerful in both).

I will leave aside discussion on the gameplay patterns of lane Nidalee vs jungle Nidalee because in my opinion they both have problems (mid Nidalee can feel uninteractive and top lane is just rude, but enemy junglers can feel virtually helpless against the speed and safety of her counterjungling when she does jungle), but at least in terms of how well she can be balanced, lane is significantly better. Nobody complained about Nidalee for a fairly decent length of time before she became a jungler, but since her transition into the jungle she's been a continuous balance problem who's had a pretty persistently high ban rate. And she's been a jungler for a year now.

Restless SlumberMar 22, 20161 votes

Honestly, top lane Nidalee is essentially as strong/weak as top lane Yasuo. She has matchups that she can win, and then she has a lot where she can't do that much in.