Ashe the Forgotten Support ADC.

WhiteKnight789·Oct 31, 2019·11 votes·5,186 views

Since the very beginning of the game Ashe has had the support role. She has support capable abilities from her slowing fans and autos to her global stun and area reveal. And has never had the need for "help keeping up".

Now even Riot themselves has forgotten of their own champion, with simple abilities to meet the goals. And released/previewed an overloaded mess that will just damage the game more than it currently; and who will ultimately will require multi nerfs to keep balanced.

I really hoped that maybe, just maybe they would had realized. But alas, clearly Riot doesnt care about their champs enough to remember what they have. With this it is clear to me that the design team will never again release a balanced champ.

[sg-janna] [zombie-nunu-tears]

23 Comments

Knight SkyOct 31, 20195 votes

over reaction at its finest

TrikzterzArmaOct 31, 20194 votes

... Ashe isn't in any way a support. Just because she got CC it doesn't mean she's a support. I mean, Vayne has a knock back and stun, is she a support to?

Daddy AntsOct 31, 20191 votes

{quoted}

... Ashe isn't in any way a support. Just because she got CC it doesn't mean she's a support. I mean, Vayne has a knock back and stun, is she a support to?

Trueee

ArakadiaNov 2, 20191 votes

Ok your right but your comparison is silly. Ashe has long range slows that are up, AoE slows, global vision, and one of the best ults for getting picks in the game. That isn't really comparable to Vayne's conditional single target stun.

KeiagaOct 31, 20193 votes

There's no way to tell if she's balanced or not yet since there's no data

WhiteKnight789Oct 31, 20191 votes

{quoted}

There's no way to tell if she's balanced or not yet since there's no data

Let's be honest, given how every other champ has gone, the most likely scenario they tweak the numbers a bit but leave everything as is. Later when it's clear that she is broken (like everyone said during the preview) they will think about changing things: but will probably work to force her into one of the 2 roles by changing the stats but leaving everything as is, just like they did with Pyke when he was being played as JG. Except Senna is way more overloaded than Pyke is:

AoE Untargetable Camouflage to the entire team,
Global shield + damage,
High range heal + damage
Passive damage increase while still allowing free use of standard marksman item
Easy use AoE root
Self healing capabilities

KeiagaOct 31, 20191 votes

Overloaded sure. I don't think anyone would try to disagree that she has too much going on in her kit but being overloaded doesn't mean overpowered. Look at akali and sylas winrates

WhiteKnight789Oct 31, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Overloaded sure. I don't think anyone would try to disagree that she has too much going on in her kit but being overloaded doesn't mean overpowered. Look at akali and sylas winrates

Akali's win rate has stabilized after they released many many patches specifically targeting for being too oppressive. Sylas is a weird champion and is more the exception than the rule; It also might be because of his low play rate, I have seen him like twice, and one of them was in aram.

KeiagaOct 31, 20191 votes

Her winrate stabilized at 45%.

Hayaishi2Oct 31, 20191 votes

{quoted}

Overloaded sure. I don't think anyone would try to disagree that she has too much going on in her kit but being overloaded doesn't mean overpowered. Look at akali and sylas winrates

Are we ignoring those champions got nerfed patch after patch to actually feel somewhat fair to play against?

KeiagaOct 31, 20191 votes

I'm only talking about their current state, their entire history in the game is impertinent

Umbral KnightOct 31, 20193 votes

Honestly the only part of her kit that seems broken to me is her AD scaling on her passive. She can stack so reliably and quickly that she is guaranteed the equivalent of a BF sword and like two crit gloves by 5 mins. Mind her crits are shit but it is a thing. Tweak how reliable her stacking is and I doubt she will get out of hand unless a team lets her.

A lot of her detriments, lower crit damage, delayed autos, prevent her from being a truly reliable ADC. Everytime I see people try and make her the main ADC it falls short unless she has been allowed to stack to infinity. Which she currently can do with VERY little effort or Counter play.

Umbral KnightOct 31, 20194 votes

Also the difference between her and Ashe is Main vs Secondary

Ashe is a Marksman main with Support secondary

Senna is a Support main with a Marksman secondary

WhiteKnight789Oct 31, 20192 votes

[{quoted}](name=Umbral Knight,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=tlE3A9lv,comment-id=00020000,timestamp=2019-10-31T01:06:19.234+0000)

Also the difference between her and Ashe is Main vs Secondary

Ashe is a Marksman main with Support secondary

Senna is a Support main with a Marksman secondary

Yes I know that they are flipped, and I dont mind having another ADC support, it adds more diversity.

The problem is everyone (or at the very least most people) is treating Senna as the first and only ADC support, completely ignoring how Ashe has been in the game for 10 years. Hence the "Forgotten" in the title.

Umbral KnightOct 31, 20191 votes

You don't get it. Senna is the first attempt at making a true SUPPORT Marksman. One that SHOULD NOT be taken into the ADC role. OR ANY damage focused lane. She gets less chance of wraiths from waves if she kills them meaning she stacks SLOWER if she is CSing. The only role that doesn't CS is Support.

She can't Carry a game unless the enemy feeds her something ridiculous like 15 kills in 10 mins. She does not belong in solo lanes or as an ADC.

I can KINDA, very big if here, see her in jungle to enable some REALLY scary ganks with her E Stealth ability and I tried her in practice tool solo clearing and she didn't do bad. But she is designed from ground up to fulfill the SUPPORT role as a Main.

Ashe is taken in the support role for one of three reasons: Trolling Vision Control Duo Dynamic

SociopathFriendOct 31, 20191 votes

Also the very reliable CC and poke

xelakerOct 31, 20191 votes

But now you can have 2 support adcs

KABLUMPOct 31, 20191 votes

Dude you don't understand, senna's basic attack speed is ubaribly low, she's completely ability reliant until super late at which point her autos are still kinda blegh due to the super low attack speed you'll have even if you build full attack speed. they want you to build AD caster items on her and if you do it right you can get a better sniper than caitlyn who can heal you from far away, can stay safe, has decent poke and yeah

She's just caitlyn support but with bad auto attacks

i4got2pull0utOct 31, 20191 votes

Yea no clue what your talking about.

There is a huge difference between a supportive champion and a champion with utility. She builds and plays like a carry, not a support. There are many champions who had that "Support secondary" classification. Syndra for example, back on the old client with the first classification system she was labeled as a mage support - Syndra's burst and superb ability at being an assassin stat checker pushes her into the mid lane. ** Champions may be designed to fit certain roles but then as a community we find better uses for them**. Tahm Kench was designed as a top laner, but his kit was very strong in the support role - so thats where he ended up, and thats what he ended up getting balanced around.

Saying that Riot doesn't care about their champions is a total fallacy, they care about how we, the players, are using the champion. Not because they think we need a champion that happens to be a "support marksmen"

This is kinda like saying Sivir is a support because she has a strong team fighting ultimate; Riot encourages creativity, but it sounds more like you are frustrated everyone else doesn't use the champion the way you like it.

TonyTonyMordecaiOct 31, 20191 votes

I thought Tahm was originally designed as a support first, then people took him top? I might be remembering it wrong though.

Malix FarwinOct 31, 20191 votes

And she got reworked a while ago.

Jeddy017Oct 31, 20191 votes

To be fair, Support Ashe is more of an Off Meta thing than anything. It wasn't something she was made for (Mainly because Support wasn't a thing back then) nor was she balanced around it. Riot & most the community sees Ashe as a Markswoman with plenty of utilities. She can support, even today. In the world with all of these Lux Veigar Velkoz Xerath Zyra "supports" who are just CC-ing & poking people down despite lacking any protective abilities (besides Lux), she would fit right in. But it's not really people's go to thing, even for off meta Supports or "Supports". In fact, I assume most players don't know it's a thing & would just consider the Support Ashe trolling.

Senna, on the other hand, is BUILT from the ground up as a Support Markswoman with Support being her intend & primary role. Riot even said they would balance around support 1st & foremost. Riot made damn sure that the whole Community know that this is a Support. Players aren't gonna be like "Support Senna? Are they trolling?" If they are, then that's on those players.

Is Support Ashe really forgotten? Or is it more the case that it is a very minor thing that was never noticed by much of the community in the 1st place?

As for Senna's balance, can we wait until she is live before we say anything? Let's not rely on the "On paper" explanation or some clickbait PBE video on Youtube. Even when she is live, we won't know for sure for the 1st few weeks because people will be learn how to play as, with & against her while dealing with people banning her because they think she's OP or, Yuumi's case, thinks she's trash & will lose them the game.

ShnookumsOct 31, 20191 votes

How time has changed my old friend. I remember those days where Ashe can get 5 additional gold per mob kill. Ashe counted as support because her old kit, her auto's slows the target letting the ADC pick them off.