Talon's Nerf - Counter-Arguments as to why that's a good thing

KenjiChan251··13 votes·2,370 views

I've been watching the boards a lot recently mainly because of Talon and I've been seeing that a lot of people really don't like the nerf - me included. However, I still see not only on here but also on YouTube about how he's still viable or he's still ridiculously strong without the silence. He is not. As a Talon main, I'll do my best to compile the answers people have made against why Talon's nerf was a good thing.

The damage hasn't been nerfed at all! Just ult in and kill!

While it's true the damage hasn't been nerfed (if anything, it's probably been given a very, very tiny buff thanks to his passive), you'll have to remember that Talon's ult comprises a good amount of his burst. All Talon players agree that Talon's kill potential skyrockets once he reaches level 6, and for good reason. Also, if anything goes wrong (and it all too likely will) Talon has just used his only reliable escape and is a dead man. Also, that still doesn't address the fact that he still has to come within smacking distance of any CC, spell, or attack in order to do his work and can't easily back off or escape from them. And this is also adding in the fact that he got enough farm and kills in levels 1 to 5 to even BE dangerous. An unfed Talon becomes dead weight for the team, regardless of the situation. And do you seriously want a Talon to be useful, at best, every other half minute or so? Assuming he can do his work properly each and every time?

His passive gets proc'd from Cutthroat's CC!

What, a measly 10% in damage? And this is only for autoattacks, not for any of his abilities which comprise a great deal of Talon's burst. This might be helpful during laning phase (emphasis on might since it's still a very risky business), but otherwise, it's not very helpful. And that's also not factoring in if his opponents have any Tenacity (Irelia, Mercury Boots, etc etc) that turn that 0.25 second slow into pretty much nothing.

An instant gap-closer and silence combined is way too toxic for League!

Okay, there, I'll agree with you. If you're low on health or Talon is fed, that 700 range on his Cutthroat essentially becomes an instant death radius since you're left helpless while he stabs you to death. While that is still no reason to take out the silence, I'll agree it needs to be nerfed - perhaps it needs to be done in stacks, a la Annie/Kennen passive, or perhaps reduce the radius of Cutthroat or shorten the duration of the silence. Just not taken out entirely!

Kassadin and LeBlanc were fine after their silences were removed!

That's because unlike Talon, they had great mobility to compensate, and the removal of their silences at least assured players they can be counterplayed. Before, Kassadin and LeBlanc could just teleport in, burst, and teleport out while their silences were up, leaving them with no counter. Talon, however, is different. When he Cutthroats in, he risks himself each and every time due to poor mobility and only one reliable escape. He has his ult at best, and even that's a risky business since one could still land a skillshot on him while he's invisible or drop a pink ward. And as I mentioned before, he still needs his ult as a large part of his burst. To use it all the time for merely escaping would be taking out the key point of his ult.

I got destroyed by Talon each and every time! He's too OP!

Oh boy, really? Really? Talon was strong, but he was definitely not the strongest, and DEFINITELY not OP, especially if you knew what you were doing and not trying to run from him like a headless chicken or bumrushing him. As I've said to many people in games where I play as Talon and people got themselves killed, "Never approach a Talon carelessly." He has several main flaws, especially during laning phase:

  • No sustain
  • Very squishy
  • Base damages suck
  • Low mobility
  • All-in high-risk style of play

Even by his counters, a Talon could be easily dealt with. He could be poked out of lane with him not being able to do much by playing safe because his Rake has a short range and guzzles too much mana during laning phase to be able to harass efficiently with. Even if he tries to go in, he's risking a lot - as soon as that silence ends and you're still alive, you'll be able to retaliate all you like since he wouldn't have had much time to get away. Also, he has no reliable escapes - if a jungler comes in to gank him and he doesn't have his ult, at the very least he'll have to burn his flash to get away. And even during late game when he's fed, he's still very prone to getting killed - he's still extremely squishy and if you drop a pink ward when he ults, he's helpless. Talon's not OP. One just needs to know how to deal with him.

So those are my current counter-arguments. If any of you have any more reasons why you think Talon's nerf was a good thing, please post them. I'll edit this first post to address them as I either come up with the answer or someone else answers for me.

34 Comments

sp4418 votes

While I do think that Talon's silence should have been removed, I also think that he should have been significantly buffed in other areas to compensate.

Though it seems unlikely that he'll ever get a power rebalance that pleases both parties without a rework...

redniwediS9 votes

I personally think Riot plans to compensate him once they have identified where he needs compensating, which requires a bit of time watching how he is without the silence.

sp4416 votes

Well, his passive definitely needs a change, I know that for sure. It's not very efficient on him, and it's not very satisfying to use.

Rubber Jesus1 votes

Well, his passive definitely needs a change, I know that for sure. It's not very efficient on him, and it's not very satisfying to use.

I agree. Give his passive to Ashe. Make her Q an active with time limit, with Talon's passive. Make Talon's passive different to compensate for the silence loss.

*Quoted wrong person earlier :S

Hullabaloo9071 votes

I would like to agree, but all the stuff they have said about it points to them them thinking it wasnt a big nerf.

redniwediS2 votes

Unlike the players, Riot actually has the capability of gathering mass amounts of information to use when balancing. If the information so far says that Talon has not received a noticeable hit then one of the two following things has occured:

  1. Talon did not receive a significant reduction in power.
  2. The statements made have been made too early, and more time needs to pass before enough information has been collected to make an accurate statement on Talon's current position.

If it's the latter and it turns out Talon has been hit by a rather large nerf compensation will happen.

Constantine225 votes

When you test something you should test it on Test servers/pbe. Not Live.

When i log in to play League i want to play Talon. When i want to play Talon i use teambuilder. when i use teambuilder queues take 20 minutes most of the times. When i get a 20 minute queue i want to at least have some fun.

Ezreals/lucians/tristanas blinking/dashing/jumping my E away or shacos taunting me not afraid of my silence anymore or vaynes/tristanas just using E/ult and clicking me so that their champ just chases me until they are in range to push me away cause they know i will E to them or Malzahars that do the same with their ulti is NOT fun.

You want to remove his silence? Rework him so that he doesnt need it. for example make his E have two charges so that he can reblink again like zed can with ult and then W. or leblanc with W then ult.

but for gods sake dont just remove his silence and leave him as he is. dont "Test" him like that on LIVE servers. thats why public beta environment exists. to test stuff.

sigh. sorry if i sound a bit rude. its just that if you actually use the "search" tool and filter it for "talon" topics, tick the "has riot comments" box and pick to show "past month" results (not past week which the patch came) it will show you nothing. they just dont care about talon. They never did. I still remember the bug he had for like a whole year where his E didnt actually amplify his damage at all. I mean what the heck Riot... so irresponsible.

redniwediS2 votes

Riot tests for bugs on the PBE, where as they need a large sample size to test balance. Sadly the PBE does not have enough players to even come close to emulating the live servers.

If you've got a better idea please send it to Riot.

Constantine223 votes

but its not something thats hard to see. talon only has one blink. once they blink away he cant do anything. there not much to think about. they shouldnt even test it. its just bad. and if they want more people then make pbe more .. you know.. popular. most people i know irl dont even know what pbe is. i told them about the soraka and sion rework before it got released and they kept asking me how i knew these things...

redniwediS1 votes

That's the play style of the old Talon. You might be right in that he needs a buff, but that's only if a new play style does not fix Talon's current problems. You can't test for that in the short term, and the more people you have testing the faster it will happen.

I'll say it again, the PBE is for bug testing not balance testing. They want to make sure the game won't break when the next update goes live, not test every possible way people will actually play him on the live servers.

Sire Hippington1 votes

while PBE is surly not for testing all possible ways the change is affeckting a champ, u can still go for the obvious, which experienced players often enought could tell from just the changes on paper, and Talon loosing his niche and with that viabillity if his silence is gone is an obvious thing. Without major changes to tweak out his claring weaknesses is, as buffing his strengths(fast aoe burst) would be worse than the silence for sure, Talon will be inferior to other assasins.

Dar Raksada1 votes

Hearing this, the problem appears to be the overall mobility creep, maybe riot should just do an all-round mobility squish? While the silence might be needed vs those with mobility, those without mobility had absolutely no chance to fight back. Anivia for example couldn't do a thing before except watching herself die.

KenjiChan2511 votes

Maybe, but if Talon goes in, she could just wall up then stun him. Even without mobility, mages have ridiculous amounts of CC that put Talon in danger.

Dar Raksada1 votes

I'm talking about the situation BEFORE the silence removal (as evidenced by the word before). Now anivia can finally fight back. Before she could not just " wall up then stun him" as talon would either W over the wall or have killed/brought anivia so low she'll die in the next second already. Because of the dash she could not stun preemptively cause he'd just hop over the stun/dodge it if he was too far to hop over it.

Constantine222 votes

Anivia can instantly stun Talon when he blinks to her cause of no silence. i mean if you have smartcast on its really easy cause Talon is very predictable unlike zed. zed can just W where ever he wants while Talon only has the enemy to blink to. this was fine for talon players cause Talon had the fake surprise effect with the silence. so he is even more predictable. He E's Anivia, she stuns him and E him and activates ulti and there. Talon perma slowed and cant follow her anymore due to slow. even with his speed buff from his ulti.

Hullabaloo9075 votes

I think the silence needed to go, but they needed to compensate by reducing some of his weaknesses that you have listed. Before a lot of them were necessary because of how little counter play people got, but you cant take one of a champs main strengths and not really buff his other strengths or get rid of any weaknesses.

One thing i do have to say about the slow it that it does make his combo easier to pull off, and i think that is why a lot of people who dont play talon or have not played him a lot think it is more of a buff than it is.

Jamatrix6665 votes

I'm pretty sure most of the community agree that the silence needed to be removed or severely toned down. I respect Riot's decision and I agree to the nerf itself like the majority of us do.

What frustrates Talon users tho is the uninteresting compensation they gave. Yes, it allows him to do even more damage than before, but how can he do more damage than before without his 1 second window of safety?

In other words, the 99% slow compensation, while a little bit useful, is very dull and lack of originality, especially since Talon already has a slow in his kit. And most importantly, this compensation needed to help him out in a defensive way, not in an offensive way since he already has one of the biggest AD burst in the game, while also being one of the most linear and unsafe (kill or die trying) champion.

SecretLore3 votes

I find it kinda sad that the silence got removed,simply because it was so fitting for him to have the move "cutthroat" which silences his target. It simply fitted perfectly his character.

But yeah I can understand why it was removed(however I agree that he could have used some other buffs)

ErinTheKnight2 votes

Thank you!

Knight SoIaire 2 votes

Kassadin and LeBlanc were fine after their silences were removed!

thats the worst lie in history lb is crap tier atm, sometimes she even gets bullied in lane kassadin never realy relied on his silence so he still was op till riot nerfed him to crap tier

the biggest problem that talon will face is the fact that zhonya rush might destroy him completly (zed syndrome, zed i picked mainly for splitpushing in worlds, talon cant do that so he will prolly be forgotten)

the next thing that you totaly get wrong is describing talon as a strong champion talon was never strong, he could easily lose even vs champs he countered but his main strenght was his snowballing (his burst has low cooldown meaning that mid game he can safely pick a person every 45 seconds), giving enemies a chance to counteratack means that talon will straight out lose all early trades, and even if he wins the lane he can be shut down by zhonya rush which became viable vs him or a simple pink ward

dont underestimate this one sec silence on bursty champions because it usualy is the only thing that keeps them in game (look at lb, enemies became able to hit her back and suddenly she proves to be a crap usable only for mad jukez)

still as any assasin lb talon and zed will counter the adc's but if enemy midlaner goes big the game is straight out lost for them

so to summarize

Kassadin and LeBlanc were fine after their silences were removed!

thats a false information (lb got gutted, so did kassa, and i suppose that talon will share the fate)

The damage hasn't been nerfed at all! Just ult in and kill!

its not about the damage but about the counter attack capability so argument invalid, also to "just ult and kill" he needs to be fed, wont happen without silence i suppose

An instant gap-closer and silence combined is way too toxic for League!

which means that you dont know what it is about it never was about a gapcloser with silence but about zhonyas hourglass and flash, both wreck talon when used right after his e and silence prevented that

I got destroyed by Talon each and every time! He's too OP!

he never was op but the meta is hungry for assasins who can cope with zhonyas hourglass, talon was prolly the last of them so he became popular
in the end he was just an ordinary assasin, the last one who realy worked (every other assasin gets wrecked by zhonya meaning that they can only go for adc, talon could assasinate the actual carry, the one who is more fed)

Chromatic Eagle1 votes

I think it's very possible that Talon will get a rework if his damage revolves around a silence. Maybe even LeBlanc and Kassadin. Assassins in general even.

HigeR1 votes

you do know the dmg amp is not just 10% right? at max rank cutthroat is going to increase your damage by 15% plus the current slow procs his passive for a grand total of 25% now add to that the fact that your Q procs your passive as well and allows you to autoattack twice... well that's one hell lot of damage ._.

The main problem I see is that in order to reach acceptable "assassin" numbers you'd need to level E first for the dmg amp and then proceed to level Q leaving Rake last... and we all know that Rake is Talon's biggest tool in lane... so you're pretty much choked either hang on in lane for as long as you can or forsake laning to reach acceptable damage.

Sire Hippington2 votes

level E first, for an insane 3% increase in damage per point, wow, ur math teacher must be crying right now.. E only adds damage if u already deal good damge without it, as it's only amp.

if u max E, ur full combo at lvl 9 with 50 bonus as deals 823 without E and 823+113=946 With W maxed, u deal 1023 without E and 1053 with E, which is over 100damage more on the prime target +200more aoe+better poke/waveclear

also, it's about the passive, not the E amp, as the new slow on E alows for 1 AA with the passive bonus, which is 10% more damage on that AA. the 15% was there befor the nerf aswell, thats nothing new

HigeR1 votes

you are right, the 15% dmg amp was there before but now each auto is increased further thanks to his passive. Now you can effectively save Rake as a finisher instead of trying to proc your passive with its unreliable cone.

As for math, your so called smart analysis falls short on realizing that while W's damage is higher, you can't expect to reapply it anytime soon, not to mention you can miss it. By leveling E first you could have that 946 dmg 2 or 3 times in a row thanks to Q's AA reset, I'd tell you how much is 946x3 but since it looks like you're the one savvy in math I'll leave that to you.

Sire Hippington1 votes

How on earth would maxing E grand u 2-3 full bursts in a row? Does it now reset the ult? And the Q AA-reset is bound to the Q cd, so maxing E doesn'T help getting more of those off. And for missing W as Talon, u either need to be bad or face an enemy with good reflexes and a blink... With cdr, u can use W as opener AND finisher, atleast i do... And the new slow lasts only for 1 AA, which at that lvl is ~15 bonus damage(with some AS u can get the AA-reset in time, makeing it ~35, which is stil not enough to outdamage maxed rake, besides E giving this damage even if u max rake first...) And most of all: U need waveclear and poke in the early, and a stronger slow+aoe damage helps alot in 2v2s with ur jungler, in dragonfights or in Ganks.

Constantine221 votes

What are you talking about? E slow right now lasts for 0.25 seconds... do you realise how many attacks you gonna land during that time? 1!! one auto attack only. and it has better be Q to get the 10% amplification more worth than just a simple auto. with silence he could auto+Q for the auto reset. but without silence you have to land your Q first before they flash/blink/dash/push you away. so overall he deals less damage right now. so its a nerf. no buff at this current patch. actually i dont think he ever got a buff from the moment he was released. like Ever. and dont tell me about the E fix. with this fix when the enemy is just walking towards you and you E to him you auto and you CANT Q after that cause you are too far away and Talon just tries to walk to him to land it. where previously when you E inside them you could auto + Q easier. so that was a nerf too although only for those who where Talon players. those who werent dont even know how big nerf that was. lost lots of duels cause of that E fix.

HigeR1 votes

O.o, ok, I Admit I missunderstood the first reply (it was total combo at lvl 9, I thought it was the damage from EQW x_X), but it looks like he missunderstood me as well haha, I didn't mean to level E at lvl 1, I meant to focus on getting E to max lvl first, you should start with W -> Q -> E as normal and then focus on getting E to max lvl asap.

With that out of the way, I thought the slow was 1 second long, so I give you that, it's too short but it's a 99% slow (almost a snare), so unless the enemy has flash up or a dash you'll be able to auto+Q (which doesn't take you 0,25 seconds honestly, it takes way less, when you Cutthroat in you auto immediately unless you were attacking something before, AA reset is instant as well, so it can be done really really fast, if you're good)

I agree though that the enemy moving away will make it harder to land an AA, this was solved in other champions by giving them temporary range on their AAmodifiers and I fail too see why Talon's range can't increase when Q is on, this could be a suitable buff for him.

I do understand that the removal of silence affected Talon and his players, I never, NEVER!!!! said that Talon didn't need his silence to be relevant I was merely stating that having a slow in his dash is nice but never better than silence. Sadly a silence tied to a dash is pretty powerful and Riot made its choice, I'm trying to look at the good inside of the bad and trying to give advice at how to work around such a change (focus on leveling E) I'm sure that if Talon is this bad statistically, Riot will buff or change or perhaps even revert the removal of his silence, but for now, for those who love playing Talon and will find themselves immovable despite his non-silence state, need to adapt until next patch or so

Sire Hippington1 votes

i undertood very well that u mean maxing E first, and i explained why it is definitly worse to max E instead of W first on talon.

Constantine221 votes

I dont think you can do auto+q in 0.25 seconds. 250 miliseconds! ... and its not instant. it has an animation from the moment you press the button to the moment it actually lands.maybe you thought all this time that people who play talon just press Q near a target and instantly a red number pops up. by doing a+Q the enemy has the time to blink/dash away making that tactic useless. unless you went in with stealth by activating R before going in so that they wont see you. cause if they see you they are gonna keep their fingers ready to get away the moment you blink on them. also by activating ulti to get in stealthy you guarantee an auto plus Q althouth you still lose half your burst and you are going to die 100% in a teamfight without your stealth. so its still a nerf.

Sire Hippington1 votes

with trinity, i can get the AA-reset within those 0.25sec as the 30%as speeds up both the AA after E and the Q animation. an enemy would need massive reaktions to escape within 0.2sec after getting jumped on.

Constantine221 votes

I still dont think anyone is able to auto + Q in 0.25 seconds. i mean using that tactic WITH the silence pretty much wasted time and the enemy could zonyas your blades. so most people when going for the kill they just E+Q+(R+W at the same time since R doesnt have cast time) and the blades whould hit before the silence ended. if you do E+auto+Q+ (R+W) the enemy will be able to zonyas the moment you cast your (R+W). i mean watch the latest match up with Talon (dade) vs Zed (xpeke) that happened 2 days ago. Talon had the silence since the championships are with the previous patch so talon still had the silence. watch as Dade with Talon found Zed in the jungle and E and tried auto Q during the silence and when he W zed was able to ulti him and dodge all the blades. if he had just Q without the auto he whould have killed him. and you are telling me that you can auto +Q in 0.25 seconds and Dade who is a professional player cant do that under a second of silence? also go try the numbers. go to a custom game. find a minion and go E+auto+Q and see the number of the Q damage. then go and just Q without the auto and see that you will do more damage cause you managed to land it during the 0.25 second slow. if you can auto+Q in 0.25 seconds and can record it then show me cause i'm pretty sure you cant. noone can. its just not possible.

Onegarion1 votes

I'm pretty sure its probably been suggested, but what if they had simply lowered the range on cutthroat and allowed the silence? It always irritated me when I would be playing Xerath and he would be able to use cutthroat on me so easily and from so far away. I play back quite often especially against a champ like talon that had an easy all in. I never found myself saying "Damn that silence just killed me." It was always in my head that he was able to use it from SO FAR AWAY. Thats the issue I had. I get he is an assassin, but when he could jump 700 units away from you it doesn't really do any good. I feel like simply lowering the range so that he had to get up close and personal would be easy enough to cut down on his overall power and leave some counterplay. SInce you would leave it at get close to cs and get attacked or stay back and maybe lose CS and not take the damage.

I'm not a talon player and have only tried him scarcely on the odd occasion that I wanted to have fun and try a new champ, but I really don't think his silence was really a problem. LB and Kass were justified to take it away since they could easly silence you and deal damage and be gone before you had a chance to trade. Talon though had to either blow his ult or just leave and either way he has to walk away. He can't gap close away after he goes in and in the late game people would treat talon like they would akali and have a pink nearby at all times to see him. I'm not at liberty to say if it was a justifiable nerf to him, but I feel like in this case it wasn't exactly the first place I would have gone to if I wanted to reduce his power.

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