Cinderhulk and Smite on Laners

prarock·Apr 9, 2015·3 votes·1,513 views

Recently I've been seeing that tank junglers have almost completely wiped out damage junglers like lee-sin and reksai with the new cinderhulk jungle item. Even after the recent nerfs to the health, I believe that its not the health that the item provides which is a problem. It has come to the point where top lane tanks like shyvana take smite just to get the cinderhulk item along with the red smite and use the insane dps and damage reduction that the combo provides to make the game extremely boring. I think riot should change cinderhulk to make it do more damage to monsters and reduce its damage to champions allowing tanky and utility junglers to still stay in meta and at the same time not giving them the insane amount of damage that cinderhulk provides. Any thoughts on this?

15 Comments

IcyPepperApr 9, 20154 votes

Look, I'll be honest here: if it's notable when someone takes smite over flash to get a strong item, I call that diversity. They're sacrificing a powerful spell that's almost in every game now to get a powerful item.

Personally, I call it a balancing issue that flash is essentially required. If cinderhulk was taken in 98% of games because it was that strong, I'd agree. But that's flash, and since we can't nerf it... I'd rather have a little options in diversity.

Also just build item 3153 to counter it. Passive damage on-hit will scale with the bonus hp.

killd0zerApr 9, 20151 votes

The game has been balanced around Flash's existence since post beta. The rationale is that flash is overall better for the game than it is harmful, and that the game would need massive re-balancing if it was removed.

IcyPepperApr 10, 20151 votes

shrugs

Cinderhulk smite top lane is now a strategy that isn't overwhelming the game. I say just leave it, because the sacrifice is a strong spell. Risk and reward there.

prarockApr 10, 20151 votes

Don't take my word for it, but I strongly feel that soon that strategy **WILL ** overwhelm the top lane meta both in the professional scene and in solo queue. Recently I was against a full tank Nautilus with this set-up and late game our adc since she wasn't a vayne or a kog'maw couldn't do anything to the nautilus even if we peeled for her she did no damage at all, and no she wasn't very far behind and neither was he very far ahead. This kind of unkillable tank that still dishes out unspeakable amounts of damage is what I dislike, I am all for tanks like shen who used to provide utility but still didn't do enough damage to just straight up kill the adc in 3-5 seconds flat.

IcyPepperApr 10, 20151 votes

I'd like to see that build, though.

Problem is that the adc scales into late-game as a class, and to counter a cinderhulk you need botrk. Just like how a tank builds thornmail against Vayne and Irelia, an adc needs to counterbuild as well.

I have no issues going against Sejuani, for instance, as long as I have a proper tank-shredding build.

Sir YamazukiApr 9, 20153 votes

What do you mean Lee got wiped out? Lee Sin is still the #1 most picked jungler for soloq, along with Vi being 2nd and Nid being 3rd, neither of which are tank junglers.

IcyPepperApr 9, 20151 votes

17% pick rate, last time I checked.

At least it dropped under 20% like it used to be.

Why is his pick rate and win rate so different tho? :/

Sir YamazukiApr 9, 20151 votes

{quoted}

17% pick rate, last time I checked.

At least it dropped under 20% like it used to be.

Why is his pick rate and win rate so different tho? :/

Says 20.54% at the moment, 18% for plat+

IcyPepperApr 10, 20151 votes

This is my source, want to share yours?

Though going by pick rates alone, Graves, Thresh, and Jinx are in a tight spot. And considering win rates as well, Jinx is going to be under some scrutiny.

TheFrozenIslesApr 9, 20151 votes

Yeah I see that as well. The top lane (if on the blue side) all so use smite on the frog to get that buff as well. Mind you they dont kill it just get the buff.

I for one like it and think if they dont what smite to be in lane. They should buff the damaged on sunfire cape and make another item with the bonus health.

ErockandrollApr 9, 20151 votes

Riot previously stated that they don't oppose laners taking smite as long as it didn't start crowding out other summoners. Top lane tanks will have to sacrifice either TP or Flash, just to get CinderHulk. Having a few top lane tanks taking smite for CinderHulk is no problem. It will only become a problem when it crowds out other top lane picks.

prarockApr 10, 20151 votes

I think that's the point I was trying to make, top laners with escapes such as shyvana/nautilus/hecarim because of their ability to take smite and not flash and also be tanky will slowly crowd out top lane bruisers like Darius/Fiora/Pantheon who we don't see much of these days because they just don't scale as well as tanks end game.

IcyPepperApr 10, 20152 votes

It'd also come across as hypocritical, considering summoner 4 kind of does that.

B3ERApr 10, 20151 votes

If Cinderhulk laners start pushing out other options, then it can be considered a problem. If it simply comes down to a new playstyle with niche applications, we simply get more depth which is good for the game. The primary thing I'm worried about is the counterjungle pressure that Smite laners have. They can really keep the enemy jungle down hard without him having any options.

Bruiser junglers are still very viable. Tanks are just dominating a bit because of the Cinderhulk introduction. The recent nerfs to Cinderhulk bring tanks more in line. I can't wait till they make Magus and Devourer worth a damn.

SirsirApr 10, 20151 votes

not giving them the insane amount of damage that cinderhulk provides

Its only 8 more damage per second, at max level, after it has completely built up, than Sunfire. At that point even ADCs have 1.4k hp so its not a huge deal.

With this setup you effectively have to pay 850g to unlock one of your summoner spells, and Cinderhulk really isn't that good early. Compared to sunfire its 375 HP (nor counting RM) vs 450 HP and 45 Armor. Admittedly it is 350g cheaper, but still. This type of build gives you a heavily punishable early game.