How does normal MMR work and how can I check it?

YordleSnapback·Dec 28, 2016·3 votes·31,305 views

I hope this is the right section, I couldn't decide if it fit in Gameplay or Help & Support, so I apologize if it's in the wrong section!

I am currently level 28 but am matched up with gold/plat and even diamond players on my team and the enemy. So I'm wondering now how hidden MMR works, I am getting about a 50% ratio, a little over now, but every win I see more high MMR players than before. Is there currently a way to check hidden MMR?
It feels like a push and pull of getting stomped and then winning, but I am not sure why I am paired with these players since I am not even level 30.

Thanks!

[slayer-pantheon-thumbs]

21 Comments

Mysticman89Dec 28, 20167 votes

Theres no way to check your mmr for any queue type.

Occasionally third party sites will try to make estimates, but they're only estimates with no real way of knowing if they're accurate or not. They're usually relatively consistent within their estimates, but sometimes one site will give one number, and a different site will give a totally different number, and theres no way of knowing which one is closer to being your 'true' mmr.

It's really hard to get a feel for your mmr in anything except solo/duo ranked, and maybe flex ranked. Every queue type has it's own MMR, and so normals mmr and ranked mmrs are separate, so trying to estimate your mmr based on the ranks of those in your game is going to be misleading.

In fact, I suspect theres probably a lot of gold ranked players with normals mmr much higher than many diamond+ ranked players, since many people get to gold 5 or so for the rewards and then switch to playing normals for the less stressful environment, so they have many more games played to build up an accurate normals mmr, not to mention they'll probably play on their main champs/roles there. Meanwhile, most higher ranked players will just play ranked all the time, and so won't have many normals games played for the system to have an accurate assessment of their normals mmr, and what's more, when they do play normals, it's usually to screw around in their off roles and/or champs.

If you're winning about 50% of the time, your mmr is probably not changing much, and similarly your opponents on average are still around that mmr, whatever it may be. If you're winning more than 50% of the time, your mmr is trending up slowly but surely, and if you're winning less than 50% of the time then it's slowly trending down. Again though, at 50% winrate, your mmr is pretty stable, and your opponents are all around the same mmr on average. It can sometimes not feel that way due to the ranked mmr and normals mmr mismatch, and normals can be worse since the 'on average' part can really come into play with premades (a challenger level player and a bronze level player can be in a premade together after all...and the bronze level player might even have the higher normals mmr).

Still, knowing your mmr doesn't do anything for you. You're going to get matched the same way regardless, and in the long run you're always going to be at roughly a 50% win rate (unless you're literally one of the best players or one of the worst where theres no one on your level to fairly match you with). If based on their in-game gameplay players seem to be gods with 10 cs/min, then great, you probably have a high normals mmr. If you get in game and it's a clown fiesta where everyone is averaging 3 cs/min, probably a not-so-good mmr.

YordleSnapbackDec 28, 20162 votes

Thank you for the well thought out reply, this puts it in perspective quite a lot. Usually I cs pretty decently and get decent kill contribution, but I thought that individual score didn't effect MMR and only win/loss did? I am still learning the game so I apologize if I seem a little dense about this. But I enjoy learning about the game. I am only asking because I heard to wait before starting ranked but a friend said people say to wait because they don't want to learn the ranked play and opt out of the stress for normals like you said. I just want to get better and see my progress so I'm not 100% sure how to do that without just starting ranked at 30.

Mysticman89Dec 29, 20164 votes

You are correct that only win/losses influence mmr, and your individual performance doesn't actually impact mmr.

That said, those who consistently do well (e.g. achieving great cs/min) do tend to win more games (as after all, they're going to have a gold advantage compared to their less skilled oppoenents), and so end up at a higher mmr before their win/loss ratio levels out to around 50% which is why I mentioned that metric. Lots more to the game than just csing of course, but that's an easy at-a-glance thing that usually correlates well with skill.

I feel ranked (solo) is the best place to learn. It can be rough at first, and if you jump in at 30 without a solid knowledge of how to play it can be a rough starting experience as you plummet down to your skill level (which is often in bronze for new ranked players), and so for some, their early ranked experience involves a 30% win rate and is not a positive experience (nor is it positive for those on your team). This is why some people will discourage people from ranked.

Still, I think people should embrace ranked, and just be mentally prepared for that initial rough period. Eventually you'll bottom out and your ranked mmr will be close to your "true" skill level, and so you'll win 50% of your games on average, assuming your skill level doesn't change. The thing is though, you will get better if you focus on your mistakes in those games and always work to improve them, and so after the initial rough period, you'll end up with a win rate slightly over 50%, and slowly your mmr will climb up (generally with your rank alongside it).

Playing with people all roughly your skill level (often in different ways...some people are mechanical gods, but have no macro knowledge and/or have abysmal attitudes, and so that drags them down) is probably the easiest place to focus on yourself, and and also learn what other players (at your level) are doing to beat you. Learn to counter it or do it yourself, rise a little, repeat. Normals aren't great for that by contrast, since sometimes you will have someone who is so far beyond you that you're just left in awe and can't really learn from it, or you're against players who are so unfamiliar with their champ/role that they won't punish your mistakes. In ranked, if people aren't able to punish your mistakes, then you'll almost certainly climb until you're at a level where they do punish them, and then you can learn to fix them.

YordleSnapbackDec 29, 20161 votes

I see, this is good information, a lot of higher elo players like yourself have suggested that I just play ranked after 30. I signed up on replay.gg and I try to watch the games that I lose to see where I went wrong. I play mostly ADC at the moment, and ARAMs to get used to positioning.

Besides CS and positioning though, I noticed I have a hard time knowing when to engage or if I will be able to join a fight before we win or lose, maybe I'm too passive, but I'm not sure. What do you think would be the best to work on?

I have done 2v1 customs vs intermediate bots with no runes or masteries to see if I could CS perfectly, and I average 80% CS just farming, which is about 6cs/min atm. Although I am not sure if CS would be intuitive to practice now if my positioning isn't on point but I think that learning when to engage is lower on the scale at the moment.

Mysticman89Dec 29, 20162 votes

As far as I'm concerned, 5+ cs/min is acceptable for ranked. It's not like plat+ material and maybe not even gold, but it's something you'll get better at with time, and it's better to practice in a 'real' environment with ganks and enemy laners to juggle. Some might have higher standards, but I figure <5 cs/min theres something fundamentally wrong (e.g. you are just AAing randomly without actively trying to last hit or something), but beyond that it's basically practice.

As for when to engage and when to try to join a fight (versus try to take something elsewhere on the map) that's really sortof an experience thing, and also something that can take some reading of your teammates to do well. I think in a lot of cases, especially at lower elos, the 'right' thing to do is usually to take an objective elsewhere in theory, but in practice people will run like lemmings into an ill advised fight so sometimes you actually should go to the fight anyway and try to damage control (but other times, ignore the team, gets objectives, since they win games, not kills). Again, it's something that comes with experience, although this you can sortof get via osmosis through watching streams (although be wary that diamond+ games are probably nothing like bronze/silver in terms of the decision making you can expect of your teammates).

Try to be critical of yourself in winning games too. The thing that really made my elo shoot up way back in the day when I was as low as B4 was when I basically decided to stop dieing, and being super critical of myself when I did. Very rarely are deaths absolutely necessary and unavoidable, so if you ever die, try to figure out why. Sure, the support may not have been warding, but I still went forward without the vision, and that sort of thing. Yes it sucks if you miss a bunch of cs, but it sucks more to go forward to try to get the cs, only to get killed and only maybe even getting the cs, giving your opponent both a gold and xp lead.

Still, the biggest thing is always look at yourself. You can't control your teammates, so focus on what you can control. Lots of people get stuck blaming their uncarriable teams and never improve, and end up stuck in 'elo hell'. Theres going to be plenty of games you can't win due to teammates, but theres never going to be a game you can't improve yourself in, and all you ever need to do is win more than 50% on average to keep on climbing.

YordleSnapbackDec 29, 20161 votes

I've been watching a lot of qtpie and doublelift which does help me get used to the mechanics of ADC, although I find myself in the wrong place of the map often. I try to do my best joining in fights and positioning myself as good as I can but more often than not I'm in a bad place. With CS, if I am able to actively farm, I do very well last hitting and can CS perfectly if given the chance but I have trouble once I start getting zoned or get ganked even if I survive the gank I'm not sure if I should go back bot or try to farm up another lane when I can't safely go bot. I am okay at kiting which helps a whole lot in fights even when a tank or assassin dives the back line which I guess I sort of got through osmosis of watching streams. I'd say I'm definitely mindful of my deaths and I am critical to say "that fight was my bad" or "my positioning was awful" which happens more often than not. I try to be positive in all my games, but sometimes my team mate is too toxic to stay positive with, like my last game which was an ARAM, my singed kept diving and then blaming Varus and I, although I think we did well regardless of the trash singed was talking after-game (I muted him early)..

I think I could improve a lot if I knew when to farm and when to fight, where to be, etc, and I'm guessing I will learn that quickly in ranked game play. I went mid a few games ago against a S6 diamond leblanc, and I didn't do well but I was able to farm and group with the team to take objectives, and we won, but I was very mindful to let my team know when and where leblanc would be and get vision control on the map. I was 0/6/1 and ended the game 3/7/5, and it was definitely a game to learn from, though like I mentioned earlier, I got zoned and I wasn't sure what to do. I farmed from range with varus and just did my best with the awful laning phase.

My bot lane did very well luckily, and we actually had a full AD comp + shen so that was an odd thing to work with, I felt happy with myself then though. I do know that my CS has gotten much better since I started playing with and against higher elo players, I started off playing league averaging 4-5 cs/min and I am roughly the same because of the problems I mentioned before but I am closer to 6 now, and even greater in the mid/late game. I guess that early game is where I have the most trouble, but when I watch my replays it's really silly things I do that miss creeps.

So, before I bother you too much, let me just ask if it's best to juggle lanes as ADC if I am getting zoned or can't farm/go for kills in my lane easily? Or is there something better to do?

As a scenario, I have a passive support, and I am against a Lulu/Caitlyn bot, and I'm playing a short range ADC like Sivir, I can spell shield an ability from them, but they still have a lot of pressure on my lane and I miss creeps that I can't reach, even when I freeze the lane outside the tower, if they decide to push, and can get a full wave, they back off to reset the lane where I can't CS again. What would be the best thing to do in this scenario? I understand I could ask my support to be more aggressive, or my jungler to gank, but this is often not a good idea from my experiences.

Mysticman89Dec 29, 20162 votes

I should say I'm a support main although adc is my secondary, and so theres probably gold adc mains out there who might know better, just as a disclaimer. (Sivir is quite possibly my worst adc as well, although I'm not giving sivir specific advice.)

I would not expect your opponents to be very good at wave control, so would probably just sigh and chill under your turret to get what scraps you can. They probably wont completely freeze the wave for very long if at all, and while you'll miss some cs, you should be able to at least get xp and keep the tower from falling. Hope the other lanes are going ok, and wait/hope for ganks or other lane intervention.

First turret gold is somewhat of a big deal, so I'd strive to avoid giving that up, so don't usually think roaming to other lanes is wise (and trying to do a lane swap thing is more coordination than I'd expect in solo queue, and probably wouldn't even be that effective). Maybe if you're twitch or something who is particularly well suited to roaming ganks, but most adcs showing up at another lane don't accomplish much and throw off the mid laners csing instead.

Maybe do krugs/gromp if they are freezing stuff effectively, but I wouldn't want to go much further than that, as you don't want to miss xp and you don't want to have them push down the tower. Maybe pick up a cull if you see that getting kills is unlikely and your gold is probably going to come from the cs you can get, so if they don't match your cull purchase you might end up equal in gold despite the cs lead once it finishes.

I've never been a fan of desperation plays. People make mistakes that can be punished at my elo, and it only get more common the lower things go. Be patient, and wait for opportunities, and they will pretty much always come (although recognizing them isn't always easy). If you really know the limits of your adc/support pair, then sure, aggressive play can take control of situations since you know when you can all in and win, but theres a difference between aggressive play and reckless play and I feel a lot of people trying for the former end up doing the latter. Sometimes they get away with it, but it always scares me.

YordleSnapbackDec 29, 20161 votes

Thank you very much for the advice man! I appreciate it a lot, I will keep your tips in mind, for sure. Good luck out there, and maybe I'll see you before too long.

I am not an aggressive player too often, and when I am it's because we can initiate a 3v2 / 4v2, but I don't really try to solo kill or go aggro in lane, not even 2v1 unless my support initiates, so no real desperation plays. My mouse has also been a little spotty recently, so I think if I change out the cord soon it will help a lot with current mistakes kind of outside my control too. I've had to go dead and me run forward into instant death before, but it's been alright most of the time.

YordleSnapbackDec 29, 20161 votes

Hey, just wanted to let you know that I've been focusing on just not dieing and my CS has gone up to about 7/min, although I am not getting a lot of kills I am able to do well just not feeding the lane. I've been beating a lot of gold ADCs in my recent games and matching them in CS, so that's definitely good. Thanks again man.

Mysticman89Dec 30, 20162 votes

Good job, glad I could help. Have a good new year.

YordleSnapbackDec 30, 20161 votes

You too man!

shyieDec 28, 20162 votes

Correct me if I'm wrong:

MMR is something Riot uses to match you other players. 3rd party sites like OP.GG use API and statistics from Riot to give you an MMR. It stands for Match Makng Ranking, and shouldn't be your first means of skill cap. The reason you are being placed with high elo players is most likely because you have been winning the majority of your normal/draft games, placing you in a certain area where Riot can consider you as an above average player. When ranked play comes around, you will have the opportunity to climb higher than those who have performed under Riot's standards.

I think this is the basis but don't quote me.

(Its also likely you are placed like this because it's normals)

YordleSnapbackDec 28, 20161 votes

That is what I thought, unfortunately op.gg only tells me my ranked MMR, I found a site for normal and ARAM MMR but it isn't updated frequently. @ https://na.whatismymmr.com

I have been learning a lot playing with high elo players but I don't think that I am performing well either this high. I did very well when I was playing with mostly gold or silver players, but I have been slowly doing worse.

AthenasVendettaDec 28, 20162 votes

I mean you could try to estimate your own... If the other players are ranked you simply find theirs and find the missing number in the average of the five players.

YordleSnapbackDec 28, 20161 votes

I've tried doing this based on averages but it's all over, from 1300 to 1800 ELO so it doesn't tell me too much.

AthenasVendettaDec 28, 20162 votes

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I've tried doing this based on averages but it's all over, from 1300 to 1800 ELO so it doesn't tell me too much.

Thats because you are basing it on the game not averaging 10-20 games

YordleSnapbackDec 28, 20161 votes

Hmm I'll try that then thanks

IctusDec 28, 20162 votes

lots of high ranked players dont play normals all that often, so their normal mmr is very low. im plat for instance but if i ever play normals (rare) i play with silvers mostly. it could also be that the diamonds and plats are grouped with silvers or bronze which lowers their mmr.

YordleSnapbackDec 28, 20161 votes

I thought that too but I look at their match history and it's mostly normals with a good win ratio so I'm not completely convinced.